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The Fiscal Cliff


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#61 dmaul1114

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 04:20 PM

Honestly, I do think they should just get rid of deductions period. It just makes things too complicated. Drop all these deductions and lower each bracket's rate some to compensate so people (especially in the lower and middle brackets) aren't paying more.

Get rid of tax returns and the racket business around them. End of year just fill out a form based on your W2 income and any other income you had and pay any taxes from income that didn't have taxes withheld by an employer.

But that will never happen. So yeah, best we can hope for is capping things like mortgage interest deductions at some amount so the wealthy don't benefit more from it than the average Joe. Someone buying huge, expensive houses doesn't need the break.

#62 camoor

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 04:21 PM

I care because right is right and wrong is wrong. Just because something makes sense to you, does not make it morally just. Javery shouldn't have to care about my situation.


Yeah but why do you care so hard? Why is this so important to you, moreso over issues of social justice involving people who are truly hurting (whether they be starving, beaten, or worse)

Why are you so concerned with Javery's plight, is the economic situation that rosy for your own family that you can afford to care about whether some rich lawyer will be able to pay for his house in a select area and private school for his two kids etc etc

#63 egofed

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 04:23 PM

What about the whole "all men are created equal" thing? Equal application of policy is all I ask. True justice would require the same amount from every person, not just a progressive tax percentage. Rules based on perceived need should not trump rules based on true fairness and justice.

#64 dmaul1114

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 04:25 PM

The problem is a lot of Americans in the lower and middle classes are just as selfish and self focused as the wealthy.

People just don't give much of a shit about others, and think everyone should work hard and get by on their own or not. There's a severe lack of empathy.

The rich just care about making as much money as they can and keeping as much of it as they can. And much of the working and middle class are just bitter from working hard to just get by and can't stomach the though of people getting "handouts" while they're working hard. They can't accept that not everyone had the opportunities they did to even be successful enough to get by, and have delusions that most people on public assistance are living easier lives with the same or more luxuries than they can afford without having to work hard.

#65 Clak

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 04:26 PM

We'll never have nice things in this country as people are greedy selfish fucks and not willing to pay for it.

So we have shitty roads, god awful often not worth bothering with public transit (I'd killl for a high speed rail system), pathetic internet speeds that way pay more for vs. other countries, a terrible health care/health insurance system and on down the line. Along with all the shitty elements of our culture--terrible food, obesity, anti-intellectualism, raging consumerism, idolization of celebrities and athletes etc.

I'm not so sure why people are so pro-USA. Lot's of other countries that do a lot of things better and I'd be gone in a second if/when I can work out career and language barrier issues.

this is why I laugh whenever someone talks about an American equivalent of the German autobahn. You really want to drive on American highways doing 100+ mph? I know I wouldn't, I can't imagine hitting some of these holes around here going that fast. Would seriously Fuck up the alignment of your wheels if nothing else.
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#66 camoor

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 04:27 PM

What about the whole "all men are created equal" thing? Equal application of policy is all I ask. True justice would require the same amount from every person, not just a progressive tax percentage. Rules based on perceived need should not trump rules based on true fairness and justice.


Yeah but worrying about expiring tax cuts on the rich is like worrying about literacy rates in Somalia.

Why should we even care, we have real problems! It's such a dopey issue for 99% of the population to even pay attention to much less care about.

#67 egofed

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 04:31 PM

I like dmaul's alternative plan as well. My life is pretty sweet, camoor. I am very fortunate with an awesome family, girlfriend, and friends. My hobbies are pretty inexpensive and I have a ton of free time to partake in them. I made some mistakes in the stock market...but have a pretty sizable nest egg that I saved from my less than stellar salary. My job provides me the opportunity to help people. I hope to fight injustice in every way that I see it. Taxing anybody, rich or poor, at such levels is wrong to me. I want the inefficiencies of government dealt with BEFORE we decide to raise taxes. Prove to me that the government is not wasting my money, then ask for more.

#68 Clak

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 04:33 PM

The problem is a lot of Americans in the lower and middle classes are just as selfish and self focused as the wealthy.

People just don't give much of a shit about others, and think everyone should work hard and get by on their own or not. There's a severe lack of empathy.

The rich just care about making as much money as they can and keeping as much of it as they can. And much of the working and middle class are just bitter from working hard to just get by and can't stomach the though of people getting "handouts" while they're working hard. They can't accept that not everyone had the opportunities they did to even be successful enough to get by, and have delusions that most people on public assistance are living easier lives with the same or more luxuries than they can afford without having to work hard.

Pretty much, and the sad thing is that although you'd think that in times of prosperity people would be more empathetic and giving, but no, people bitch just as much when times are good as they do when times are bad. Even during the Clinton years all I ever heard was how good the folks on government assistance had it, most of it from my own father.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that. -George Carlin

“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” -Mark Twain

“When a great genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign; that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -Jonathon Swift

#69 Clak

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 04:35 PM

Yeah but worrying about expiring tax cuts on the rich is like worrying about literacy rates in Somalia.

Why should we even care, we have real problems! It's such a dopey issue for 99% of the population to even pay attention to much less care about.

You want to explain to him how percentages aren't equal across all incomes, or should I? Because if every man is equal, then taxing some poor SOB at the same rate as his rich boss makes no sense as the dollar amounts will be different.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that. -George Carlin

“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” -Mark Twain

“When a great genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign; that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -Jonathon Swift

#70 camoor

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 04:38 PM

I hope to fight injustice in every way that I see it.


You're off to a piss-poor start Batman.

#71 dmaul1114

dmaul1114

Posted 29 November 2012 - 04:40 PM

You want to explain to him how percentages aren't equal across all incomes, or should I? Because if every man is equal, then taxing some poor SOB at the same rate as his rich boss makes no sense as the dollar amounts will be different.


And it's not fair.

A rich person can give up 25% (or whatever flat tax number you go with) and not have a dent in their quality of life. Where as 25% of income is a huge quality of life hit to someone making $25k or whatever.

That's why a progressive system is needed. Charging the same percentage across all incomes isn't fair. People who make more can pay a bigger percentage and still afford luxuries, people who are barely getting by can't afford to pay the same percentage with no quality of life hit.

#72 egofed

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 05:08 PM

So is it fair share or that they can afford to pay it? There are always going to be inequality of outcomes in peoples' lives, the government is not there to regulate morals and outcomes, it is there to defend us and ensure that opportunity exists. This burden should be taken by all to fund. The rich often prosper despite government, not because of it. They owe no more than the family living on welfare. It's a system devised to capture as much money for the government as possible.

#73 Clak

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 05:24 PM

I hope that one day some rich sugar daddy comes and finally makes all this free defense worth it for you, otherwise you come off as one of the hope-to-be-rich crowd. Down on your knees so to speak, servicing those you aspire to be like.

Sell-out doesn't even begin to describe your attitude.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that. -George Carlin

“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” -Mark Twain

“When a great genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign; that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -Jonathon Swift

#74 speedracer

speedracer

Posted 29 November 2012 - 05:36 PM

So is it fair share or that they can afford to pay it? There are always going to be inequality of outcomes in peoples' lives, the government is not there to regulate morals and outcomes, it is there to defend us and ensure that opportunity exists. This burden should be taken by all to fund. The rich often prosper despite government, not because of it. They owe no more than the family living on welfare. It's a system devised to capture as much money for the government as possible.

My family is fabulously wealthy by any measure, barring the truly outrageous fortunes of the world. My wife and I both went to public schools. My wife and I both graduated with undergraduate degrees from state colleges. I paid for mine using the GI Bill. We both took out federally subsidized loans to do so. We then took out more federally subsidized loans for her to go to law school. Then based on our gigantic income, we bought a house in part because of the mortgage income deduction.

Opportunity was afforded to us by federal and state taxpayers. We have used that assistance to enter the top 5% of earners in America and we reside among the top income families on the planet. My wife alone makes more money than all four of our parents combined.

Without conditions whatsoever, our story of incredible success would not have happened without the opportunity presented by very forward thinking politicians. Period. My children will grow up in something I never had: a home that their parents own. They as children ride in our brand new cars, something my wife and I had never done as children ourselves. My 6 month old has a college fund that has more money in it than my first car cost.

And I have myself, my wife, our families, and the American taxpayer to thank. And I am truly grateful. I don't understand why others aren't.
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#75 camoor

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 05:47 PM

the government ... is there to defend us and ensure that opportunity exists.


wat

#76 soulvengeance

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 05:59 PM

I care because right is right and wrong is wrong. Just because something makes sense to you, does not make it morally just. Javery shouldn't have to care about my situation. True freedom allows you to be a major dick if you want to be.;-) I do understand the progressive tax system, thank you very much. Taking 35% or 39% of any income should be criminal. We do have usury laws, too bad they do not apply to the government. The fair tax that I support does away with all income tax, speedracer. You get all of your income, and pay a higher tax on what you choose to purchase. As far as past taxation rates, old wrongs should be used as examples for the future? We do have a spending problem and a revenue problem. Too many people pay no income tax in our current system but still get to vote.


So people who don't pay income tax don't get to vote?
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Calls this what you may, but I would say that Blacks actually benefited from the slavery. Comparing the current lives of many African Americans to Africans, one can see that the former live in much better conditions with greater freedoms and opportunities.


#77 Clak

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 07:03 PM

wat

Never mind that when he says "defend us" he doesn't specify against what the government is supposed to defend us. Welfare defends people against a number of things, just as an example. But I get the feeling he means defend us against the non-existant boogie men that we often end up going to war to fight. Then again, that's the job of the military, not the government.

So yeah, as usual what he said adds nothing to the conversation.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that. -George Carlin

“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” -Mark Twain

“When a great genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign; that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -Jonathon Swift

#78 speedracer

speedracer

Posted 29 November 2012 - 07:48 PM

Back on the actual fiscal cliff talks. So a couple of days ago Obama pulls a bunch of CEOs up to the White House and proposed his plan. The Vampire Squid himself said he thought it was a good plan.

Now Boehner is going on and on complaining about Obama not putting forth a plan to cut Medicare. So sez the man:

Obama "has to get serious," Boehner told reporters following his discussion with Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner. "It's very clear what kind of spending cuts need to occur, but we have no idea what the White House is willing to do."

Political to english translation: Republicans want Obama to propose the Medicare cuts, the cuts that Obama:

1. Does not want
2. Was attacked by Republicans for in the presidential elections
3. Does not want

To recap:

Democrats want to increase taxes and have laid out a $1 trillion plan.
Republicans want medicare cuts and blame Democrats for not putting forward a plan to do what they want.

Or, as a blogger said better:

Cutting Social Security and Medicare benefits (can probably cut some costs without cutting delivered benefits) are bad politics and bad policy. It is very shocking that after spending a year attacking Obama for cutting Medicare, Republicans want Democrats to own cutting Medicare.

This is the Republican game. You propose our unpopular policies and pass them, then we get to blame you for embracing our agenda.

Yuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuup.
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#79 Clak

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 07:58 PM

We think this is a bad idea, and we're going to force you to do it! -Republican MO?
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that. -George Carlin

“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” -Mark Twain

“When a great genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign; that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -Jonathon Swift

#80 dmaul1114

dmaul1114

Posted 29 November 2012 - 08:17 PM

I think they really just need to let the deadline come and taxes go up.

Then dems can put forth a bill to lower taxes on those making under $250k, would be political suicide for republicans to vote against it enmasse.

So it gets what we need with just the shitty fact of people in lower incomes paying higher taxes for a month or two. And if the republicans do block it long term, mid-term elections in 2014 should break solidly for the dems. Win-win in my book.

#81 Clak

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 08:24 PM

As much as I don't like the idea, you may be right. Though I expect it to not happen, something will probably get worked out at the last minute.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that. -George Carlin

“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” -Mark Twain

“When a great genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign; that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -Jonathon Swift

#82 irideabike

irideabike

Posted 29 November 2012 - 08:26 PM

Go over the edge and don't look back imo.

There are no shortcuts. No do-overs. What happened, happened. Trust me. I know. All of this matters.

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#83 speedracer

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 12:49 AM

Since we last chatted:

The Dems wouldn't put a number on the Medicare cuts that Republicans want so a Republican aide went ahead and leaked that they did. How helpful!

A Republican aide familiar with the offer that was presented to House Speaker John Boehner by Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner and White House congressional liason Rob Nabors confirmed that the $4 trillion package would raise $1.6 trillion in tax revenue up front.
[..]
In exchange for the added tax revenue, Democrats would give in on $400 billion in spending cuts from entitlement programs like Medicare and an aide said those cuts would not be immediate.

Bam. There it is. Obama laid out his plan and the Republicans couldn't leak it fast enough. Side note: wasn't the knock on Obama that he didn't lay out his plans? And that he isn't getting anything done? Well, it's going to be tough for Boehner to pretend like four trillion dollars isn't substantive. He's going to have to come back with a detailed idea of what he wants and what the numbers should be if he's going to be taken seriously at this point....right? I mean, when even the CEO of Goldman Sachs says its a good plan, I mean, you're at least going to bring your own plan forward now right? At least? Or at least you'll say what you think the numbers should be near? At least? Words?

Boehner slammed that number right after the meeting at a press conference though he would not say what the number should be.

Naturally.

"Unfortunately many Democrats continue to rule out spending cuts that must be part of any significant agreement that will reduce our deficit" Boehner said.

"he would not say what the number should be"

Republican playbook:

1. Threaten to shut down government/start a debt crisis
2. Make no serious, actionable offer or plan at any point
3. Demand Democrats offer cuts that Democrats don't want
4. Leak Democratic offers to cut
5. Run against Democrats on cuts Republicans wanted
6. Threaten to shut down government/start a debt crisis

Remember kids, Obama is the problem.
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#84 RealDeals

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 02:33 AM

Yeessssss!

Worthless, whiny rich pieces of shit like you need to pay more taxes.

No one wants to hear you whine again about how tough you have it working in a useless profession making over $200k and how that's not enough because you choose to live in expensive area, to pop out a bunch of crib midgets with your wife etc.


:lol::lol::lol: HOLY Fuck Dmaul, I've never seen you explode like that lmao
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Originally Posted by the4thnobleman Posted Image
I need power to come back on! I still need to spend $10 or so to get my $20. Stupid hurricane Sandy Vagina!

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#85 RealDeals

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 02:39 AM

This reminds me of a South Park episode...

Regardless, I don't feel that it "looks like we care" about our spending problem by simply increasing our income by what would be a relatively trivial amount (in comparison to our current spending levels and in comparison to the overall debt level).



So, basically, the argument is that we should focus on short-term goals.

I see no problem with that.



I just know that someone is grinding their teeth over the misuse of debt vs. deficit...

Is higher taxes the best way to finance social spending?
I tend to believe that cutting spending in other areas (in particular, military/defense) would be the better way to finance it. That's not to say the entire tax situation doesn't need to be looked at, but when our government has had unchecked spending for so long, I'd prefer to see them show that they do have restraint and control (and common sense) before giving them more money.

I'd much rather profer that, but that'd get next to zero support from both Dems and Repubs.
http://t3.gstatic.co...4wtuy3FpqqoZSRA

Originally Posted by the4thnobleman Posted Image
I need power to come back on! I still need to spend $10 or so to get my $20. Stupid hurricane Sandy Vagina!

Posted Image

#86 speedracer

speedracer

Posted 30 November 2012 - 11:09 AM

That’s what you’re really seeing in this “proposal.” Previously, Obama’s pattern had been to offer plans that roughly tracked where he thought the compromise should end up. The White House’s belief was that by being solicitous in their policy proposals, they would win goodwill on the other side, and even if they didn’t, the media would side with them, realizing they’d sought compromise and been rebuffed. They don’t believe that anymore.

Perhaps the key lesson the White House took from the last couple of years is this: Don’t negotiate with yourself. If Republicans want to cut Medicare, let them propose the cuts. If they want to raise revenue through tax reform, let them identify the deductions. If they want deeper cuts in discretionary spending, let them settle on a number.

Republicans complaining that Obama used to be the only adult in the room who would actually start from where the finish line would be. Now he won't do it anymore because the Republicans just ask for more. And if you think that's crazy, remember that Obama's last debt ceiling offer had MORE CUTS than Boehner's original demand. Boehner just kept pulling the football and running further to the right.

Obama. The do nothing president.

"The White House’s belief was that by being solicitous in their policy proposals, they would win goodwill on the other side"
lulz. dumbasses.
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#87 Javery

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 01:13 PM

Your 'reason' makes about as much sense as Gordon Gekko's 'greed is good' speech.

edit: Javery, fyi Gekko was the villian of that movie. I didn't want you to be confused.


Whatever. How many people in this thread purposely don't take deductions that they otherwise could have (not against the rules) or write bigger checks to the government every year (also not against the rules) for the "greater good"? Oh that's right, no one. I'm all for the "rich" paying higher taxes too as long as you raise the bar to a number higher than I'll ever achieve. :roll:

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#88 camoor

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 01:40 PM

Whatever. How many people in this thread purposely don't take deductions that they otherwise could have (not against the rules) or write bigger checks to the government every year (also not against the rules) for the "greater good"? Oh that's right, no one. I'm all for the "rich" paying higher taxes too as long as you raise the bar to a number higher than I'll ever achieve. :roll:


Of course, we all care for our families more then the govt.

But don't be so bitter dude. It's like paying internet sales tax, when for so many years it's been free to trade on the net. Sure it sucks but deep down you know it's the right thing. Take it for what it was - you enjoyed a nice free ride for a long time, now you gotta suck it up and pay your fair share.

Don't be a bitter old man, you have a pretty good life compared to most Americans.

#89 dmaul1114

dmaul1114

Posted 30 November 2012 - 02:57 PM

I don't deduct anything from my taxes other than my student loan interest. I don't claim charitable donations (money or stuff donated to Goodwill) as I don't give to get a tax break. I buy shit I use for work (iPad and expensive stuff like that down to office supplies) and don't bother itemizing and writing things like that off. I just put in my W2 income, any outside consulting income, deduct my student loan interest since that's already money going to the government, and that's it.

I don't really give much of a crap about money. I do ok for myself, but I could be just as happy making significantly less as all I really need is a roof over my head, money for utility bills and cell phone and Netflix as I'm not very consumerist and would rather spend time doing stuff with people than sitting around consuming things I buy, and lots of things I like to do like running, hiking etc. are free or low cost. My girlfriend and I both despise crib midgets as well, so never wanting kids saves us a fuckton of money in the long run as well.

Not everyone's life revolves around making as much money as possible and keeping as much of it as possible to buy shit we don't need. And I'm fully supportive of my taxes going up. Fully letting the Bush tax cuts expire is probably a bad idea as it would hurt the lower income brackets too much, especially with the economic situation still being tough. But someone like me making $70-75K can certainly afford to pay a little more. Much less when I marry my girlfriend and we're over $120k at the least. I also support online sales tax even though I do most of my shopping online. I know I could (and should) pay it now, but it's too much hassle to keep track of all my online purchases from everywhere each year. But I'd 100% vote to add online sales tax in my state if it was ever a ballot measure as I'm happy to pay it if it's just automatically added like when shopping locally. Again, not everyone is obsessed with money.

#90 Strell

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 03:54 PM

Are people down on my boi Javery in here?


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