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The Fiscal Cliff


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#181 mykevermin

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 01:07 PM

I'm hesitant, but don't see it as the end of life as we know it. I'm all for spending cuts. Cut the military by 4x its current budget. Cut all foreign aid and corporate welfare. Cut all grants and wasteful endowment programs. You know I dislike welfare, so cut or reduce it as much as possible. Democrats would get their tax raises, and could pass a 250K and under cut later if they wanted. Just do something to get our debt under control. I'd rather go back into a recession now while we are still halfway solvent then suffer the depression that will eventually follow if we continue spending like this. Heck, the two credit downgrades we received already haven't killed us, what's a few more?;-) Do you support Krugman's suggestion to just keep printing money? Do you think its possible that we could lose our standing as the world currency?


What historical examples exist that the US is at the risk of repeating?
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#182 Clak

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 02:46 PM

Lets cut things that help us innovate and expand our knowledge. Knowledge has a well known liberal bias anyway, kill that shit.
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#183 dmaul1114

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 03:33 PM

Yay for anti-intellectualism. But what the hey, just got a $390k federal research grant with some colleagues. :D Suck on that cons! ;)


http://www.washingto...-cliff/?hpid=z2

Polls show a strong majority would blame Republicans rather than Obama if a deal isn't reached. So, again, glad they're playing hardball.

Edited by dmaul1114, 04 December 2012 - 03:44 PM.


#184 Vader582

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 03:54 PM

Yay for anti-intellectualism. But what the hey, just got a $390k federal research grant with some colleagues. :D Suck on that cons! ;)

Putting Liquid Paper on a bee? That's been done.
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#185 egofed

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 04:55 PM

Lets cut things that help us innovate and expand our knowledge. Knowledge has a well known liberal bias anyway, kill that shit.



Socialized single payer healthcare kills medical innovation. Our for profit system pushes new procedures that all of the civilized world eventually benefits from. You still want that socialized healthcare? I want to suspend "wasteful" spending until we get this mess under control. When we are running a surplus again, then we can revisit "Piss Christ" and spotted woodchuck mating ritual research. Anybody want to answer my question about qualitative easing? Just keep printing money as the answer?

As far as history, look up Britian's loss of its standing as the world currency. Its bad, and I believe it could happen to us. A war, another crash, China deciding to screw us....wouldn't we be better off without the debt? Seems like a dumb question, but a lot of people seem to accept it as business as usual.

You call Reagan and a lot of Republicans out, but what about ol Slick Willy and Anthony Wiener? Obama hasn't done much of what he campaigned on, and has gotten caught in a few lies. If the Republicans would stick to financial conservatism and let the whole abortion thing go, then I would maybe rejoin the party. Like the left, they say one thing and do another.

#186 EdRyder

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 05:24 PM

You can call it socialized healthcare all you want , but thats not really what it is now is it? Why even have this discussion anymore? I just cant see how the argument could be made that when suddenly the insurance companies have thousands of new clients and a previously non existent stream of revenue coming in , that the medical field would cease to innovate. Why?
What , you think Doctors go home after the night shift and tinker in their basement?

#187 dmaul1114

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 05:43 PM

Plenty of innovation in medicine comes from universities and research centers in the US and abroad that are funded with government dollars rather than private money. For instance, in the US the National Institute of Health invests over $30 billion a year in research.

Having the medical industry for profit is terrible as it leads to drugs being patented and then sold for ridiculous prices (see cancer, HIV regiments that cost in the five figures each month) etc. and drive costs up and overwhelm the health care system--whether private or public in a given country. Plus private drug companies that are profit driven don't have a lot of motivation to find a vaccines or cures as they stand to make a lot more money selling drugs that just prolong life or alleviate symptoms and thus get taken for years by patients, rather than a vaccine or cure a patient pays for once. It's a terrible system.

#188 Strell

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 05:50 PM

What? Capitalism is GREAT for medical fields. Finally, everyone in the world will no longer be at the mercy of Restless Leg Syndrome. Also, if your antidepressants don't work, you can take antidepressants to make the antidepressants work. And then when you die because the antidepressants you took to make the antidepressants you took work, it's ok, because YOU'RE DEAD, and therefore no longer depressed!


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#189 egofed

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 05:55 PM

http://www.forbes.co...nnovation-edge/

"The second component is open access to healthcare markets. In order to put our innovations to the test, doctors and patients need the freedom to choose from all available treatments. A new threat, the so-called Independent Payment Advisory Board, created by the Affordable Care Act, would take us down a dangerous road of more limited choice. The IPAB gives unelected bureaucrats unprecedented powers to slash Medicare spending. This board would limit patients’ choice of treatment based primarily on cost, with little or no consideration given to those treatments’ life-saving benefits."

I never said Obamacare is socialized healthcare. I do believe that it was established to help send us in that direction. I know several of the normal posters are all for true socialized healthcare. I think there are pros and cons, slowing or killing the innovations we have enjoyed in medicine appears to be one of the cons.

#190 eLefAdEr

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 06:10 PM

Let's not forget about how prevalent Medicare fraud has become. And not just straight-up fraud for services that were never rendered, I mean the sanctioned kind from management of legitimate companies.

http://www.cbsnews.c...h/?id=50136261n

Would the government do any better? I don't know but I'm not sure it could do much worse. $7.7 billion was recovered under the False Claims Act between 1/09 and 7/12.

#191 dmaul1114

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 06:29 PM

That's why we need a payment systems like some other countries with national health care have. Where there's set fees for treating certain diseases, injuries etc., rather than paying various prices for each office visit, each test that's ordered etc. That way physicians don't have incentive to order a bunch of tests that aren't needed, or schedule more follow-ups than needed etc., to make more money.

The pay is the same for every patient with that condition, and they thus have no incentive to order any tests etc. for any reason other than feeling they're truly needed to best treat that individual patient.

#192 Clak

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 06:43 PM

Innovation for new drugs doesn't really matter when no one can afford them. Tomorrow someone could release a cure for HIV, but how many HIV patients would be able to afford it? That's our problem, we have great care, if you can afford it.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that. -George Carlin

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“When a great genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign; that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -Jonathon Swift

#193 EdRyder

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 06:51 PM

^ Thats the real argument when it comes to any sort of stance against the IPAB 'bureaucrats'. This is America and if someone with money wants to lose his wad on frivolous tests and unnecessary procedures we should allow it. Just watching that CBS link: Its funny to me that the places where the biggest fraud is taking place never innovate. Medicare has been defrauded by shitty old people homes since its creation. The fact that we never exercised any control over false choices when it comes to something like that is deplorable. Just seems like common sense to me. We pay , we should be allowed to set the standard.

#194 mykevermin

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 07:59 PM

The IPAB gives unelected bureaucrats unprecedented powers to slash Medicare spending.


That sounds terrible phrased that way!

That way physicians don't have incentive to order a bunch of tests that aren't needed, or schedule more follow-ups than needed etc., to make more money.


Oh, that's what they're actually seeking to control by "slashing" Medicare spending.

It sounds so much awful when phrased by the right. Remember that when you think the left are guilty of "scare tactics."

When the left seeks to reign in spending and control waste - i.e., to do what the Republicans claim to be in support of - it's giving "unelected bureaucrats unprecedented powers." LOL.
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#195 UncleBob

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 08:09 PM

That sounds pretty similar to how when the right wants to cut social spending, the left characterizes it is "letting them die" and such.

lolz.

The entire charade is so akin to professional wrestling that so long as the two teams oppose each other, their fan base doesn't care which side of the fence they're on.
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#196 Msut77

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 11:41 PM

Socialized single payer healthcare kills medical innovation.


No it doesn't.
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#197 egofed

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 01:29 AM

Yes it does.;-)

#198 dmaul1114

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 01:39 AM

Exactly what kind of education and intellectual acumen does a fucking firefighter have to be an expert on medical innovation or science in general?

#199 usickenme

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 01:55 AM

none, if you've read his posts.

#200 highoffcoffee496

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 04:57 AM

Plenty of innovation in medicine comes from universities and research centers in the US and abroad that are funded with government dollars rather than private money. For instance, in the US the National Institute of Health invests over $30 billion a year in research.

Having the medical industry for profit is terrible as it leads to drugs being patented and then sold for ridiculous prices (see cancer, HIV regiments that cost in the five figures each month) etc. and drive costs up and overwhelm the health care system--whether private or public in a given country. Plus private drug companies that are profit driven don't have a lot of motivation to find a vaccines or cures as they stand to make a lot more money selling drugs that just prolong life or alleviate symptoms and thus get taken for years by patients, rather than a vaccine or cure a patient pays for once. It's a terrible system.


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#201 Msut77

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 09:28 AM

Libertarian firefighter? Is that an oxymoron?
wahhhhh noone helped me so they must not help anyone. - knoell

#202 egofed

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 07:38 PM

http://www.nytimes.c...ss/05scene.html

"
American health care has many problems. Health insurance is linked too tightly to employment, and too many people cannot afford insurance. Insurance companies put too much energy into avoiding payments. Personal medical records are kept on paper rather than in accessible electronic fashion. Emergency rooms are not always well suited to serve as last-resort health care for the poor. Most fundamentally, the lack of good measures of health care quality makes it hard to identify and eliminate waste.
These problems should be addressed, but it would be hasty to conclude that the United States should move closer to European health care institutions. The American health care system, high expenditures and all, is driving innovation for the entire world."

http://www.cato.org/...ical-innovation

"Policymakers should consider the impact of reform proposals on innovation. For example, proposals that increase spending on diagnostics and therapeutics could encourage such innovation. Expanding price controls, government health care programs, and health insurance regulation, on the other hand, could hinder America's ability to innovate."


Apologies accepted;-)

#203 mykevermin

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 07:54 PM

Cato lol.
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#204 egofed

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 07:55 PM

You read through both articles and considered them that fast? Wow.... Thanks for keeping an open mind.

#205 mykevermin

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 07:58 PM

I don't read from "research" institutions that start with their conclusions.

Just like I wouldn't go see a doctor who started with the diagnosis.
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#206 egofed

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 08:05 PM

http://www.forbes.co...cal-innovation/

#207 Strell

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 08:14 PM

It's comforting to know that the industry in charge of keeping me alive is willing to hold innovation hostage because of a higher tax. Those are definitely the guys I want to be one of the barriers between myself and death.


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#208 speedracer

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 08:25 PM

American health care has many problems. Health insurance is linked too tightly to employment, and too many people cannot afford insurance. Insurance companies put too much energy into avoiding payments. Personal medical records are kept on paper rather than in accessible electronic fashion. Emergency rooms are not always well suited to serve as last-resort health care for the poor. Most fundamentally, the lack of good measures of health care quality makes it hard to identify and eliminate waste.

So what I'm seeing there is an argument for strong new regulation. Right? That's how you fix every single one of those problems, right?

These problems should be addressed, but it would be hasty to conclude that the United States should move closer to European health care institutions. The American health care system, high expenditures and all, is driving innovation for the entire world."

Is there some reason why people wouldn't buy additional insurance on top of Obamacare? Government services are offered across the economic spectrum and yet people go above and beyond. The 401k industry is massive. AFLAC makes tons of money on the workers comp margin. Why wouldn't people also buy more health insurance and why wouldn't that continue to drive innovation?

"Policymakers should consider the impact of reform proposals on innovation. For example, proposals that increase spending on diagnostics and therapeutics could encourage such innovation.

That's regulation. You're arguing for regulation.
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#209 ToadallyAwesome

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 09:55 PM

There is a lot of talk about "innovation" being important in this thread but you need to be a bit cautious with that term in the medical field.

For example: to get a new drug on the market you need to only show that it is better than placebo (of course it stills takes the 5 - 10 years of testing) but it doesn't necessarily need to be compared to existing drugs.

Not saying that a lack of funds is a good thing but it might force us to compare existing treatments and optimize a bit...which also requires funds...

Anyway, Innovations need to occur within the system rather than "make new stuff". The "improved stuff" will come with streamlining.

#210 Clak

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 09:59 PM

That's another good point, innovation doesn't mean inventing yet another treatment for something which we already have good treatments for. For example, we don't really need more drugs for ED. We especially don't need more commercials advertising them....:roll:
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that. -George Carlin

“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” -Mark Twain

“When a great genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign; that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -Jonathon Swift