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Walmart Cop Shoots and Kills Mother of Two for Shoplifting - In Front of Kids


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#61 dmaul1114

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 03:20 PM

Funny you say forgiven, the police force has already forgiven the police officer for killing this woman, as you say he'll most likely walk away from this without even a slap on the wrist. Meanwhile the woman is dead, it doesn't matter if you forgive her now, she has already paid the ultimate price.

I'll tell you what I don't appreciate - walmart police who shootup cars full of women and kids over a bag of Walmart merchandise. I expect stupid criminals to act stupid, I don't expect walmart police to act like the Punisher.


I have a hard time seeing this cop at the least not being fired.

There's a very clear defense of life standard for law enforcement to use lethal force, as others have noted in the thread. Nothing that's been presented about the case that I've seen gives any indication that the officer had anything close to probable cause that there was imminent danger to himself or others if he didn't shoot the woman.

#62 UncleBob

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 03:35 PM

http://www.huffingto..._n_2258080.html

"At that point, the deputy opened the door and commanded the driver to stop," Deputy Thomas Gilliland told the news agency. "She put it in drive, revving forward, dragging the deputy. The deputy discharged his weapon. The vehicle then fled," he continued.


...So, is dragging a uniformed officer with your vehicle considered imminent threat?
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy, instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it."

#63 cochesecochese

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 03:50 PM

You did read the original story, right? The guy who followed onto the parking lot and did the shooting was local law enforcement.


Sorry Dick but you're not worth a real response. Oh, and that policy's gonna be a 'from now on' type of thing.

For the record I'll gladly respond to the same question (verbatim) from any other poster but you.

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#64 UncleBob

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 03:53 PM

Sorry Dick but you're not worth a real response. Oh, and that policy's gonna be a 'from now on' type of thing.

For the record I'll gladly respond to the same question (verbatim) from any other poster but you.


I'll take that a a "No." then. Okay.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy, instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it."

#65 skiizim

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:03 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong (3 hours of sleep and coffee still brewing), nowhere in that article did I read that the deputy was in his official attire. I read the word deputy being thrown around a lot trying to give him more credibility and Wal-Mart less liability.

I'm not sure what TX rules are but I know around here many off duty officers take up extra work on the side but they are not allowed to where there uniforms for off duty work. It's too much of a liability factor and if this was the case, Wal-Mart just dragged Harris County into this.

#66 UncleBob

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:13 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong (3 hours of sleep and coffee still brewing), nowhere in that article did I read that the deputy was in his official attire.


You can't just get your news from one source. :D

http://www.huffingto..._n_2258080.html

Right around the 48 second mark on the video.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy, instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it."

#67 irideabike

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:19 PM

Can you elaborate? I think we can agree on imminent threat if he is standing in front of the car and the car starts to move forward - he is at risk of being run over and killed. between the car door and the car, I'm much more skeptical. How do you see the logic of this being a clearcut case of imminent threat?

If he was between the door and the car and she started backing up he risked being caught on the car door, and possibly being pulled throughout the parking lot (tends to happen in domestic disputes when one partner "runs over" another).

There are no shortcuts. No do-overs. What happened, happened. Trust me. I know. All of this matters.

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#68 irideabike

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:21 PM

Also, my bad myke, didn't see the new story saying the car went into drive (not reverse). My assumption was based on what might have happened, due to the first posted story being rather vague. Now seeing the new story and that he was caught on the door, I see it as an imminent threat (though she was going in drive rather than reverse).

There are no shortcuts. No do-overs. What happened, happened. Trust me. I know. All of this matters.

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#69 UncleBob

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:26 PM

Troy - I've read a couple of stories that give me the impression that she pulled away, dragged the officer, knocking him off his feet, then she put the vehicle into reverse - at this point, the officer discharged his weapon.

http://www.inquisitr...-front-of-kids/

“She threw it in reverse and tried to run over the deputy … He confronted the suspects at exit of the store before they left. One female wouldn’t stop, struck the deputy with her purse, ran off … I think it knocked him off balance and, in fear of his life and being ran over, he discharged his weapon at that point.”


http://www.dailymail...g-children.html

'She threw it in reverse and tried to run over the deputy,' said Harris County Sheriff's Office spokesperson Deputy Thomas Gilliland.


http://abclocal.go.c...ocal&id=8911831

"When the vehicle took off, he was standing between the door frame and the driver. I think it knocked him off balance and in fear for his life, being run over, he discharged his weapon at that point," Deputy Gilliland explained.


It's possible that the claim of throwing it in reverse is something the local LEOs are making up to protect one of their own, I suppose.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy, instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it."

#70 cochesecochese

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:30 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong (3 hours of sleep and coffee still brewing), nowhere in that article did I read that the deputy was in his official attire. I read the word deputy being thrown around a lot trying to give him more credibility and Wal-Mart less liability.

I'm not sure what TX rules are but I know around here many off duty officers take up extra work on the side but they are not allowed to where there uniforms for off duty work. It's too much of a liability factor and if this was the case, Wal-Mart just dragged Harris County into this.


I'll spoil the surprise. The representative of Campbell's local PD was not only wearing a uniform that clearly identified him as a deputy but he also identified himself as such when confronting the shoplifter.

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#71 UncleBob

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:46 PM

Show me the article of the shoplifter that just lays on the floor after being confronted and is then shot in the head while laying on the ground, has no weapon, posed no risk, and then at that point I'll share your outrage.


How about instead, I'll show you a video of a car thief pinned to the ground being handcuffed and then is not shot at all by an officer who had an itchy trigger finger and, I suppose, really bad aim because she missed completely at that close of range.

Though I'm sure we can all (mostly) agree that this officer needs to have her firearm taken away and some serious retraining at the very least...
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy, instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it."

#72 mykevermin

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:50 PM

Also, my bad myke, didn't see the new story saying the car went into drive (not reverse). My assumption was based on what might have happened, due to the first posted story being rather vague. Now seeing the new story and that he was caught on the door, I see it as an imminent threat (though she was going in drive rather than reverse).


Do you have a link to that? I didn't see an updated story on this thread (and have a bunch of meetings today, so while I have time to putz about on CAG, I don't have the time to search for the new piece. Thanks!
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#73 dmaul1114

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:51 PM

The driving thing is still awful borderline for imminent threat. She clearly didn't floor it as the officer wouldn't have been able to shoot if the driver was flooring it away and he was being dragged along.

There's some danger there, but seems an awfully low level for using lethal force. Which should only be used when there's no other option to remove danger.

#74 irideabike

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 05:13 PM

http://www.huffingto..._n_2258080.html

It was a huffington post article. Thing is, this story (not the linked one, but in general) just is weird. I've read multiple different depictions of what happened at this point.

There are no shortcuts. No do-overs. What happened, happened. Trust me. I know. All of this matters.

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#75 irideabike

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 05:16 PM

My edit button isn't showing up right now, think it is blocked at work for some reason. But I've read 10+ different articles on different sites, and many of them conflict or say the exact same thing. Some say she went in drive, dragged him and he shot. Others say put it in reverse, he was scared of being pulled under the car and ran over and then she was shot as he feared for his life. Regardless we need officers to realize there are non lethal ways to deal with life and death situations.

There are no shortcuts. No do-overs. What happened, happened. Trust me. I know. All of this matters.

Madden 13 SB Champ in the CAG gentleman's league.


#76 dohdough

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 05:41 PM

True story - sort of. I've never heard of a police box built into a store but I've seen plenty in the center or side of plazas. Wide range of anchor stores too.

Pretty damn funny this is even being asked, to be honest. Sometimes I swear I'm the only real poor person on this board.

There are a few of us poor or formerly poor folks here, but the only police box I can think of is in Downtown Crossing?

#77 mykevermin

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 06:07 PM

Thanks, troy. I'll hold off until there's better understanding of the order (and direction) of events. The potential for imminent threat exists, sure - but it certainly doesn't exist unequivocally based on the (lack of) facts we have.
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#78 razrvamp

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 06:20 PM

Okay you bleeding heart liberals. We are taught from a young age you break the law you face whatever consequences for your actions. She stole and now she's dead. I have no sympathy for her. You reep what you sow. Maybe this will make some person think twice before they steal. Now let your flaming on my opinion begin :)

#79 GBAstar

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 06:32 PM

Okay you bleeding heart liberals. We are taught from a young age you break the law you face whatever consequences for your actions. She stole and now she's dead. I have no sympathy for her. You reep what you sow. Maybe this will make some person think twice before they steal. Now let your flaming on my opinion begin :)


I'm surprised there isn't more outrage... this story has all the ingredients that they love:

Cop, Shooting, Walmart, mixed with Minority, Poor, Misunderstood, Kids.

You have to have some pretty big blinders on to see this as poor mother steals to feed starving kid and was shot and killed by power trip cop. Unfortunately I feel like that is how many have read it.

The fact it's not gaining more national attention tells me just how undesirable of a person the deceased was. I suppose despite being the "perfect person and daughter" there just wasn't that much positive about her that the media can spin.


Maybe some good will come of this. Maybe to appease the uneducated and misinformed police departments across the country can take lessons from hollywood directors and learn how to disable a moving vehicle while faced with imminent danger by shooting out the tires, engine block and windows as suggested several times in different articles.

How good life must be when you live in lala land.

#80 soulvengeance

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 06:37 PM

Okay you bleeding heart liberals. We are taught from a young age you break the law you face whatever consequences for your actions. She stole and now she's dead. I have no sympathy for her. You reep what you sow. Maybe this will make some person think twice before they steal. Now let your flaming on my opinion begin :)


Reep eh?

Bad spelling aside, with the conflicting reports of what happened, I would like to at least see what version of the story is true, but no, I don't think a cop shooting someone will stop them from stealing, cops have been doing that for a while and it still hasn't stopped people from doing it.
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#81 razrvamp

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 06:41 PM

Reep eh?

Bad spelling aside, with the conflicting reports of what happened, I would like to at least see what version of the story is true, but no, I don't think a cop shooting someone will stop them from stealing, cops have been doing that for a while and it still hasn't stopped people from doing it.


Hey now, no need to kill my grammer. I just post whatever my phone decides to transcribe

#82 dohdough

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 06:46 PM

There's a difference between saying:

"She shouldn't have been stealing, but she shouldn't have been shot."

and

"She shouldn't have been shot, but she shouldn't have been stealing."

Cue argument on semantics.

GBAstar, what makes you think most people would even be against what happened? It's a Just World afterall...

#83 GBAstar

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 06:57 PM

There's a difference between saying:

"She shouldn't have been stealing, but she shouldn't have been shot."

and

"She shouldn't have been shot, but she shouldn't have been stealing."

Cue argument on semantics.

GBAstar, what makes you think most people would even be against what happened? It's a Just World afterall...


Let's classify people into some categories.

1. People that steal

2. People that steal while leaving their children in the car

3. People that steal while leaving their children in the car and don't stop when confronted by someone that identifies themselves as a LEO

4. People that steal while leaving their children in the car and don't stop when confronted by someone that identifies themselves as a LEO and then assault the LEO

5. People that steal while leaving their children in the car and don't stop when confronted by someone that identifies themselves as a LEO and then assault the LEO and run off to their car after being told to stop

6. People that steal while leaving their children in the car and don't stop when confronted by someone that identifies themselves as a LEO and then assault the LEO and run off to their car after being told to stop and try to drive away while being apprehended

7. People that steal while leaving their children in the car and don't stop when confronted by someone that identifies themselves as a LEO and then assault the LEO and run off to their car after being told to stop and try to drive away while being apprehended and continue to drive after their "friend" has been shot in the neck

8. People that steal while leaving their children in the car and don't stop when confronted by someone that identifies themselves as a LEO and then assault the LEO and run off to their car after being told to stop and try to drive away while being apprehended and continue to drive after their "friend" has been shot in the neck and then leave their friend in the car to bleed out while they go hide in an apartment complex


I would say while 50% or more of the population have stolen something at some point in their lives I would also argue that 99.9% of the people in this country don't fall into 4-8 and therefore would never be at risk of something like this happening.

#84 dohdough

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:14 PM

That's a pretty convoluted way to say that most people are fine with the woman being shot and killed because 99.9% of the population would never be or put themselves in that situation. It's also a tad superficial for an analysis of it.

And just to have fun with math, that .1% is still about 330,000 people.

edit: I'm surprised that no one's brought up the issue of why a cop is moonlighting as a security guard for wally world. Is the town paying the cops so little that they have to be Paul Blart: Mall Cop?

Edited by dohdough, 12 December 2012 - 07:24 PM.


#85 Hemi

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:37 PM

She wasn't shot for the shoplifting she was shot for trying to speed off with the deputy inbetween the car and the door while trying to escape, not like the guy shot her in the parkinglot as she was walking out of the store, regardless if she robbed a bank or littered, endanger an officer and she runs the risk, also howabout next time ur mugged a cop just takes down the license plate, no matter how small the crime it's their job to stop/catch you!

#86 razrvamp

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:39 PM

That's a pretty convoluted way to say that most people are fine with the woman being shot and killed because 99.9% of the population would never be or put themselves in that situation. It's also a tad superficial for an analysis of it.

And just to have fun with math, that .1% is still about 330,000 people.

edit: I'm surprised that no one's brought up the issue of why a cop is moonlighting as a security guard for wally world. Is the town paying the cops so little that they have to be Paul Blart: Mall Cop?

Don't worry just because he doesn't like your opinion doesn't mean I don't. Doh dont forget paul blart was a b***** he saved entire mall from robbers

#87 GBAstar

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:42 PM

That's a pretty convoluted way to say that most people are fine with the woman being shot and killed because 99.9% of the population would never be or put themselves in that situation. It's also a tad superficial for an analysis of it.

And just to have fun with math, that .1% is still about 330,000 people.

edit: I'm surprised that no one's brought up the issue of why a cop is moonlighting as a security guard for wally world. Is the town paying the cops so little that they have to be Paul Blart: Mall Cop?


Pretty ignorant statement. State police aside, I'm willing to bet a large percentage of LEO work extra shifts doing security for bars, arenas (concerts, sporting events, etc.), retailers, or anywhere else that needs security.

#88 skiizim

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:46 PM

edit: I'm surprised that no one's brought up the issue of why a cop is moonlighting as a security guard for wally world. Is the town paying the cops so little that they have to be Paul Blart: Mall Cop?


It's become a pretty common practice in various places whether it's private events or doing retail venues such as this. Companies like using off duty LEO because of how much more they can do vs a guy making minimum wage.

#89 dohdough

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 08:15 PM

She wasn't shot for the shoplifting she was shot for trying to speed off with the deputy inbetween the car and the door while trying to escape, not like the guy shot her in the parkinglot as she was walking out of the store, regardless if she robbed a bank or littered, endanger an officer and she runs the risk, also howabout next time ur mugged a cop just takes down the license plate, no matter how small the crime it's their job to stop/catch you!

If I was just mugged, that would mean the suspect is gone and all they could do is take my statement. If I was in the process of being mugged, I would hope the cop wouldn't turn the situation into a shoot out. But I find it hilarious that you think that littering should carry the same consequences as robbing a bank. Nice troll attempt though.

Pretty ignorant statement. State police aside, I'm willing to bet a large percentage of LEO work extra shifts doing security for bars, arenas (concerts, sporting events, etc.), retailers, or anywhere else that needs security.

Uhhh...extra shifts in uniform and acting in an official capacity is different from being a mall cop. But please go on about how ignorant that statement is.

It's become a pretty common practice in various places whether it's private events or doing retail venues such as this. Companies like using off duty LEO because of how much more they can do vs a guy making minimum wage.

Cops are public servants and private companies should not be able to use public resources like that in an unofficial capacity for official matters. <insert monopoly on violence libertarian talk>

I'm not talking about an off-duty officer in civvies happening upon a crime, but someone in the employ of a private company unofficially acting in an official manner. It's almost like hiring a sitting congressman as a part time lobbyist and we haven't even begun to talk about wally world, once again, externalizing labor costs.

#90 Clak

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 08:15 PM

Threads like this just feed my ignore list lol.
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