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Shooting in Conn. School


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#31 cancerman1120

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 09:23 PM

Point taken.

However, at the very least, we could wait until the facts of the case are known so we don't have blowhards going off about violent rhetoric in politics or violence in entertainment that turns out to have played no role in the actual shooting, for example.


I think there something to be said about "gun culture" in the US. It may have less to do with amount of guns and more to a societal issue. Israel and Switzerland both have very easy access to guns. Citizens are allowed to own them freely and gun ownership is on par with the US yet they have a much lower homicide rate. Not sure if gun control is the end all be all answer but I think it is a start in the right direction for sure.

I agree though that making baseless statements before all facts are known is advisable but in the general sense an actual conversation about guns in this country can be had today.

#32 dohdough

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 09:23 PM

The other part that makes my blood boil in all of this, how low of a cretin do you have to be, to think to yourself as a member of the media, "Hey, I've got a grand idea! Quick cram a microphone in an 8 year old's face who just sat through mass murder." So, Jenny, after you saw your older brother get shot in the face, what were you thinking? Cover the event, get details. Don't exploit the kids in all of this. They respect victims of sex abuse, why can't we respect victims and witnessess of horrific violence.


Don't forget that the press has to go throught the parents for this type of stuff. Just sayin'

#33 Temporaryscars

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 09:30 PM

I can't help but think that the reason a lot of these nut jobs pull these things is for the attention that will be afforded them post-mortem. They always seem to get their wish.



#34 cancerman1120

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 09:31 PM

Any call for gun control legislation presumes these acts are committed with guns obtained legally. That may or may not be the case. As the facts trickle in it's obvious this was premeditated as the man killed one of his family members then proceeded to drive all the way from New Jersey to Connecticut to bust into the school and start shooting up the place. Hard to imagine that someone who was hell bent on doing this wouldn't have gotten his hands on a gun one way or another.

Drugs are illegal but anyone who wants them can get them without much effort.


We definitely need to know the facts. There have been 61 mass shootings in the US since 1982. 48-49 (not sure from graph) of them occurred with guns obtained legally. There is an good 11 points on gun control article from the Washington Post.

http://www.washingto...-united-states/

Some interesting tidbits:

11 of the 20 worst mass shootings have occurred in the US. (not including today which if the death count holds would make it #2 in the US). Finland is #2 on the list with 2.

5 of those 11 have occurred since 2007. Again a society issue is also at play IMO.

Violence is down in this country but still higher than many other countries.

The South is the most violent region in the US.

Home gun ownership is actually lower than 50 years ago.

States with stricter gun control laws have fewer deaths from gun-related violence.

Interesting read.

#35 nasum

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 09:31 PM

At risk of sounding clever and/or cute:
How many of these things happened this year in the US? Batman, that mall last week, this one and the Sikh temple are the ones I can remember. That's 4. Average one every three months. Also, that's 4 I can remember which also says something...

How many happened this year in Japan which has HUGE restrictions on guns?
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#36 Temporaryscars

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 09:41 PM

At risk of sounding clever and/or cute:
How many of these things happened this year in the US? Batman, that mall last week, this one and the Sikh temple are the ones I can remember. That's 4. Average one every three months. Also, that's 4 I can remember which also says something...

How many happened this year in Japan which has HUGE restrictions on guns?


And as someone pointed out, how many have happened in Switzerland or New Zealand?



#37 nasum

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 09:42 PM

The cooling off time is ultimately exactly why we finally need regulation. Gulliani was just on CNN talking about this yesterday.
Once more with the assumption that when someone is determined to mass murder people (paraphrasing him here) "Whether its with knives or poison they'll find a way".
Total BS
All these rampages prove it comes down to ease of use.


Something about driving a car into a building right? Well, you can construct barriers. How much is a bag of concrete? How much is a kid's life worth?
A knife? One or two people can subdue a person with a knife.
Poison? Yep, hard to detect that. On the other hand, the argument that armed citizens prevent tragedies wouldn't apply since, well, it's hard to detect and deter a mass poisoning.

To that end, what makes more sense; kevlar for the kids or reducing access?
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#38 EdRyder

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 09:43 PM

http://www.washingto...ero-gun-deaths/

In 2008, when the United States experienced over 12,000 gun-related homicides, Japan had only 11



#39 dohdough

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 09:46 PM

And as someone pointed out, how many have happened in Switzerland or New Zealand?


I'm guessing that those countries have a much better relationship with guns as opposed to the one in the US, which fetishizes them.

Something about driving a car into a building right? Well, you can construct barriers. How much is a bag of concrete? How much is a kid's life worth?
A knife? One or two people can subdue a person with a knife.
Poison? Yep, hard to detect that. On the other hand, the argument that armed citizens prevent tragedies wouldn't apply since, well, it's hard to detect and deter a mass poisoning.

To that end, what makes more sense; kevlar for the kids or reducing access?


Kevlar of course! Cause the Free Market!

#40 Mega Man

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 09:50 PM

We should have a one pull one bullet law. It would make every gun have the same firing rate of a revolver. I've never shot a gun before but wouldn't the index finger be tired by the tenth or so bullet? Even if the index finger doesn't tired easily, I think the delay of having to pull the trigger every time would help.

Well automatic guns are illegal in the US but semi's aren't which is what the shooter used. Odd logic I know.

#41 EdRyder

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 09:57 PM

Side note : Watching the news footage just now with cops once again just running directly into the building like they dont give a Fuck (just like they did in Aurora)
Remind me to be nicer to Cops

#42 Blaster man

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 10:04 PM

http://www.washingto...ero-gun-deaths/

Sadly, Japan still has problems. I can't believe no one else remembers this. It's almost the same exact thing except a knife instead of a gun.


http://articles.nyda...-three-teachers

#43 Purple Flames

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 10:21 PM

Sadly, Japan still has problems. I can't believe no one else remembers this. It's almost the same exact thing except a knife instead of a gun.


http://articles.nyda...-three-teachers


Yeah but how often do you hear about this sort of thing coming out of Japan compared to the dozens of gun-related violent crimes in the US that happen every day?

#44 Temporaryscars

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 10:27 PM

Sadly, Japan still has problems. I can't believe no one else remembers this. It's almost the same exact thing except a knife instead of a gun.


http://articles.nyda...-three-teachers


Wasn't the only time either.

http://www.thesun.co...into-crowd.html

Same thing happens in China a lot too.



#45 needler420

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 10:42 PM

The NRA loves guns more then they love their kids.

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#46 dmaul1114

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 10:43 PM

We should have a one pull one bullet law. It would make every gun have the same firing rate of a revolver. I've never shot a gun before but wouldn't the index finger be tired by the tenth or so bullet? Even if the index finger doesn't tired easily, I think the delay of having to pull the trigger every time would help.


Automatic guns are already illegal. About the only thing that could still be done is banning magazines larger than 10 bullets or whatever as having to reload more often would give cops, bystanders etc. more windows to stop a shooting.

But for these types of mass shootings, it's really just more prevention needed. We have a terribly broken and inefficient system for detecting and treating mental illness in this country.

#47 needler420

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 10:50 PM

Automatic guns are already illegal. About the only thing that could still be done is banning magazines larger than 10 bullets or whatever as having to reload more often would give cops, bystanders etc. more windows to stop a shooting.

But for these types of mass shootings, it's really just more prevention needed. We have a terribly broken and inefficient system for detecting and treating mental illness in this country.



It doesn't help that our country manufactures more then triple the amount of handguns then people in our country.

I think the ratio is for every 10 people there are 9 guns.

Handguns aren't meant to hunt with.

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#48 UncleBob

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 11:06 PM

Yeah but how often do you hear about this sort of thing coming out of Japan compared to the dozens of gun-related violent crimes in the US that happen every day?


To be fair, this is America. We don't care about what goes on in strange forign countries.

Side note : Watching the news footage just now with cops once again just running directly into the building like they dont give a Fuck (just like they did in Aurora)
Remind me to be nicer to Cops


Please stop by the other thread where a 20+ year officer's word means virtually nothing vs. what internet experts speculate might have happened.

Not to say that every single cop ever is as awesome as these guys are, but too many folks automatically distrust the word of an officer and assume he's just out to "kill some darkies" when something goes down.
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#49 berzirk

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 11:23 PM

Not sure why people keep saying fully automatic weapons are illegal to possess. They aren't.

http://en.wikipedia....e_United_States

#50 GBAstar

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 11:39 PM

Not sure why people keep saying fully automatic weapons are illegal to possess. They aren't.

http://en.wikipedia....e_United_States


Can you point out where in that article it states its legal to own fully automatic guns? All I see is this:

In 1986, an amendment called the Firearm Owners Protection Act stopped all future domestic manufacturing of fully automatic weapons for civilian use (non-military/non-LEO). Fully automatic weapons are still manufactured in the US for military and law enforcement use. However, automatic firearms manufactured domestically prior to 1986 or imported prior to 1968 may be transferred between civilians in accordance with federal, state and local law. A number of Soviet and PRC rifles were brought into the U.S. during the mid-1960s, when returning Vietnam veterans brought them home after capture from enemy troops. Some of these were properly registered during the amnesty period under the 1968 NFA law.

Basically stating that only vintage/antique automatic guns can be legally owned.

#51 Clak

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 11:50 PM

We should have a one pull one bullet law. It would make every gun have the same firing rate of a revolver. I've never shot a gun before but wouldn't the index finger be tired by the tenth or so bullet? Even if the index finger doesn't tired easily, I think the delay of having to pull the trigger every time would help.

Um, I can say it wouldn't be. You could fire an entire magazine from an AR-15 as fast as you can pull the trigger and not be tried.
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#52 Spokker

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 11:53 PM

I prefer a tragedy to be politicized as quickly as possible. Why delay the inevitable?

Americans have proven that they are willing to give up rights to feel more secure when they really are not more secure. While it will not happen this cycle, I think a few more elementary school shootings and we'll have European-style gun control within 20 years. This is especially likely what with the changing demographics of the nation and the fact that the Republican party is on the way out.

I do not think it will fix anything, though. I don't think the national conversation we are having will lead to any solutions.

#53 usickenme

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 12:01 AM

While I disagree with the idea of *never* discussing the policies leading up to an event like this, I think it's entirely reasonable to stick with a cooling-off time so that decisions and discussions aren't based off emotion.


Fuck that. We have a cooling off period- it's called the legislative process.

#54 detectiveconan16

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 12:02 AM



:bomb:

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#55 Clak

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 12:02 AM

We need to start a vs gambling pool, because I could have called this thread before it was started.
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#56 h3llbring3r

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 12:11 AM

Berzirks confusion is actually understandable. The Ak47 is frequently used as the whipping boy in & by gun control advocates as most people associate it with automatic weapons- nevermind that >99% of all AK47s and Kalashnikov variants in the US are semi-automatic weapons.

I've been around guns, gun-shows and the "gun culture" all my life and, in 20+ years, with many family members collecting paramilitary weapons and class III arms- and I have never even seen a transferable class III automatic AK47 (read: an automatic AK47, made pre-1986, that a civilian with the right licenses, federal stamps, and background check could legally buy).

It's a sinister looking weapon, inspiring thoughts of soviet era oppressors and modern day terrorists- its reality a "civilian owned automatic weapon" is much less of a reality. It not hyperbole to say it is easier for a us citizen to buy a surplus military fighter jet than a class III automatic AK47, and selling in the tens of thousands of dollars it's nearly as affordable.

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#57 berzirk

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 12:12 AM

Can you point out where in that article it states its legal to own fully automatic guns? All I see is this:

In 1986, an amendment called the Firearm Owners Protection Act stopped all future domestic manufacturing of fully automatic weapons for civilian use (non-military/non-LEO). Fully automatic weapons are still manufactured in the US for military and law enforcement use. However, automatic firearms manufactured domestically prior to 1986 or imported prior to 1968 may be transferred between civilians in accordance with federal, state and local law. A number of Soviet and PRC rifles were brought into the U.S. during the mid-1960s, when returning Vietnam veterans brought them home after capture from enemy troops. Some of these were properly registered during the amnesty period under the 1968 NFA law.

Basically stating that only vintage/antique automatic guns can be legally owned.


1986 is vintage or antique? You must be young.
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#58 berzirk

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 12:15 AM

Berzirks confusion is actually understandable. The Ak47 is frequently used as the whipping boy in & by gun control advocates as most people associate it with automatic weapons- nevermind that >99% of all AK47s and Kalashnikov variants in the US are semi-automatic weapons.

I've been around guns, gun-shows and the "gun culture" all my life and, in 20+ years) with many family members collecting paramilitary weapons and class III arms- and I have never even seen a transferable class III automatic AK47 (read: an automatic AK47, made pre-1986, that a civilian with the right licenses, federal stamps, and background check could legally buy).

It's a sinister looking weapon, inspiring thoughts of soviet era oppressors and modern day terrorists- it's reality a "civilian owned automatic weapon" is much less of a reality. It not hyperbole to say it is easier for a us citizen to buy a surplus military fighter jet than a class III automatic AK47, and selling in the tens of thousands of dollars it's nearly as affordable.


I merely used it as a commonly known assault rifle. I have shot one multiple times, have a handful of friends that own them, all semi-auto. To convert them to full auto is very easy, but highly illegal. Additionally, there is a technique called bump firing which uses the recoil of the gun to cycle the next round, allowing for burst or full-auto-like results.

I'm no gun expert, but I am mildly familiar with them too. Wish I would've bought an Ak a few years back when they were a couple hundred bucks cheaper. Dependable, cool looking, and fun to shoot. Whether I think they should be legal, is not that relevant.

#59 Msut77

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 12:22 AM

I bet he had high capacity magazines.
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#60 soulvengeance

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 12:25 AM

I bet he had high capacity magazines.


No doubt about it. Has it been confirmed that he used an assault rifle, most places are reporting that it was strictly handguns being used.
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