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Shooting in Conn. School


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#61 h3llbring3r

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 12:34 AM

For clarification, we understood that you posted the link to justify your statement that "automatic weapons" were not "banned."

Convert one to full auto and show me how "easy" it is- maybe you posses the machining & mechanical skills to do so- and also posses a lower receiver that has not been built to prevent its conversion.

It's "easy" in the same sense to make your own home-built suppressor, put together a fully automatic grease gun in your garage, print a plastic fully automatic lower receiver with a photo-polymer printer. How often is that done?

I've fired automatic weapons, my family even owned a few growing up, and I have bump fired ARs- IME comparing them is laughable in terms of functionality, control and use.

No doubt about it. Has it been confirmed that he used an assault rifle, most places are reporting that it was strictly handguns being used.


Assault weapon, assault rifle- potato, tomato. Interchangeable.

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#62 soulvengeance

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 12:43 AM

Assault weapon, assault rifle- potato, tomato. Interchangeable.


Okay, not really sure what you're getting at, I just wanted to know if he just used handguns or not.
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#63 h3llbring3r

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 12:47 AM

Okay, not really sure what you're getting at, I just wanted to know if he just used handguns or not.

Thank you for reenforcing my point.

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#64 berzirk

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 12:50 AM

Convert one to full auto and show me how "easy" it is- maybe you posses the machining & mechanical skills to do so- and also posses a lower receiver that has not been built to prevent its conversion.

It's "easy" in the same sense to make your own home-built suppressor, put together a fully automatic grease gun in your garage, print a plastic fully automatic lower receiver with a photo-polymer printer. How often is that done?


I don't even own one, so couldn't explain mechanically what you need to do. I'm going off of the word of a few of the owners. Two of them build cars for fun, so I would assume that for those who are mechanically inclined it's much easier than it would be if I tried.

I've fired automatic weapons, my family even owned a few growing up, and I have bump fired ARs- IME comparing them is laughable in terms of functionality, control and use.


Not trying to say bump firing is the same as full auto, more mentioning it because people seem to think semi-auto is too hard to fire quickly, which of course is ridiculous. Hell, I'd wager that if I ever tried to fire auto, I'd barely be able to aim the damn thing down range.

Anyhoo, long story short, full auto weapons are legal to own despite what others are saying, and a vast majority of assault rifles are semi-auto only. I'm not sure we disagree. Help me out if I'm wrong.

#65 soulvengeance

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 12:52 AM

Thank you for reenforcing my point.


Geez, it's impossible to get a straight answer from anyone around here. Did he use only the Sig and Glock HANDGUN or did he also use the Bushmaster M4 Carbine RIFLE. I'm trying to explain to someone else how a ban on assault rifles is pointless because handguns are also semiauto. Do I need to be more specific, or will that do?
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#66 h3llbring3r

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 01:08 AM

I don't even own one, so couldn't explain mechanically what you need to do. I'm going off of the word of a few of the owners. Two of them build cars for fun, so I would assume that for those who are mechanically inclined it's much easier than it would be if I tried.

Not trying to say bump firing is the same as full auto, more mentioning it because people seem to think semi-auto is too hard to fire quickly, which of course is ridiculous. Hell, I'd wager that if I ever tried to fire auto, I'd barely be able to aim the damn thing down range.

Anyhoo, long story short, full auto weapons are legal to own despite what others are saying, and a vast majority of assault rifles are semi-auto only. I'm not sure we disagree. Help me out if I'm wrong.


My point was more that you are feeding and perpetuating myths, distortions, and misinformation- e.g. AK47 = automatic weapon, easy full-auto conversions, bump fire ≈ full-auto, splitting hairs of a de facto ban vs an absolute ban.

Indeed- meet enough standards, pass the scrutiny, pay the BATFE, and come up with a few tens of thousands of dollars and you can buy a stamp and a transferable automatic weapon. How often are they used in committing crimes? Why conflate the issue when your motives are the opposite?

VS, damn.

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#67 GBAstar

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 01:12 AM

I don't even own one, so couldn't explain mechanically what you need to do. I'm going off of the word of a few of the owners. Two of them build cars for fun, so I would assume that for those who are mechanically inclined it's much easier than it would be if I tried.



Not trying to say bump firing is the same as full auto, more mentioning it because people seem to think semi-auto is too hard to fire quickly, which of course is ridiculous. Hell, I'd wager that if I ever tried to fire auto, I'd barely be able to aim the damn thing down range.

Anyhoo, long story short, full auto weapons are legal to own despite what others are saying, and a vast majority of assault rifles are semi-auto only. I'm not sure we disagree. Help me out if I'm wrong.


Yes full auto guns that were brought back from Vietnam are still in circulation. A whopping 120,000 (according to your statistic). Any guess on how many handguns are kicking around? The NRA estimated that there are 250 million guns in the united states (only 15% of which are semi-automatic)... should we really be worried about those 27+ year old legally owned automatic guns?

Also you should watch out for those people lugging around the Maxim Gun. Nothing says full auto like an 1884 American made machine gun (and yes that counts towards the 120,000).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxim_gun

Lastly since you are so concerned about automatic weapons when was the last mass murder committed by someone that legally owned an fully automatic weapon?

#68 berzirk

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 01:18 AM

My point was more that you are feeding and perpetuating myths, distortions, and misinformation- e.g. AK47 = automatic weapon, easy full-auto conversions, bump fire ≈ full-auto, splitting hairs of a de facto ban vs an absolute ban.

Indeed- meet enough standards, pass the scrutiny, pay the BATFE, and come up with a few tens of thousands of dollars and you can buy a stamp and a transferable automatic weapon. How often are they used in committing crimes? Why conflate the issue when your motives are the opposite?

VS, damn.


...one of my links already mentions that full autos have almost never been used in crimes. I've already explained where my link to the AK wiki page wasn't to use it as a taboo firearm. I wish I had one. Don't want to pay what they're selling them for these days.

It seems like you're trying hard to find someone to argue with. I'm sure there's a better website or poster for that, but I've been clear enough in everything I've stated that if you're still trying to find ways to disagree, I've either lost interest, or am not smart enough to figure out what they are.

#69 mykevermin

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 01:22 AM

Mandatory ballistics fingerprinting won't stop tragedies like this from happening, but they should reduce the number of daily gun-related deaths significantly by virtue of vastly improving the ability to identify the shooter.
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#70 berzirk

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 01:22 AM

Yes full auto guns that were brought back from Vietnam are still in circulation. A whopping 120,000 (according to your statistic). Any guess on how many handguns are kicking around? The NRA estimated that there are 250 million guns in the united states (only 15% of which are semi-automatic)... should we really be worried about those 27+ year old legally owned automatic guns?

Also you should watch out for those people lugging around the Maxim Gun. Nothing says full auto like an 1884 American made machine gun (and yes that counts towards the 120,000).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxim_gun

Lastly since you are so concerned about automatic weapons when was the last mass murder committed by someone that legally owned an fully automatic weapon?


Oh...OK...so you're admitting they aren't illegal after saying they were, and you're agreeing with my position that they're rare and seldom used in crimes.

I AM VERY ANGRY AND WILL POST THAT I DISAGREE WITH YOU!

Sorry, that's the most sincerity I could muster. You too, seem to be agreeing with me. I'm not sure if I should be flattered or embarassed.

Shit-sake, it's like you guys failed to read my first post where I say I'm pretty heavily pro-gun. This is one of the few times where I'm wondering where in the hell the guys that accuse me of being just right of Bachmann, and just left of Karl Rove are.

#71 mykevermin

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 01:23 AM

Ah, and we've already had News Media throwing around the Twitter/Facebook accounts of people with the same name as the shooter. Pretty good shit, but let's see if we can't up the class a little bit more?

Spoiler


Yes. Yes, thank you, American Family Association's "Director of Issues Analysis". Thank you for existing.


Same dude: http://www.dailykos....rayer-in-school
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#72 h3llbring3r

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 01:24 AM

Mandatory ballistics fingerprinting won't stop tragedies like this from happening, but they should reduce the number of daily gun-related deaths significantly by virtue of vastly improving the ability to identify the shooter.


It's a neat idea but in the end useless.
Running a stiff metal bristled brush through a rifled barrel changes the "bullet fingerprint" significantly enough that it negates a bullet fingerprint database. The simple act of thoroughly cleaning a gun between shots renders those useless. It's good between a few shots- matching bullets from different crime scenes to a single weapon a few says apart but in that regard only.

Edit: To: Berzirk- Again, while we agree, what I am saying is that you are making your points badly- in fact, to the arguments detriment.

Edited by h3llbring3r, 15 December 2012 - 01:34 AM.

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#73 GBAstar

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 01:26 AM

...one of my links already mentions that full autos have almost never been used in crimes. I've already explained where my link to the AK wiki page wasn't to use it as a taboo firearm. I wish I had one. Don't want to pay what they're selling them for these days.

It seems like you're trying hard to find someone to argue with. I'm sure there's a better website or poster for that, but I've been clear enough in everything I've stated that if you're still trying to find ways to disagree, I've either lost interest, or am not smart enough to figure out what they are.


I apologize in advance; I'm not trying to create friction---my girlfriend and I were having a long discussion earlier. She grew up in Waterbury CT and has very young little sisters that would be about the same age of the victims.

We were talking gun control and to me it seems like the first thought is to ban dangerous guns---you know... the ones that bad guys use on TV.

Truth is we just need tighter and more regulated all-around gun control period. All guns sales should be done through a state licensed broker. You should have to provide documentation of proof of ownership every couple of years and if you no longer have a gun (i.e. missing/stolen) you need to report that as well.

Guns should be treated like kids (well if everyone was a responsible parent). I also don't like the idea of super shopping centers like Walmart or Target selling guns but what do I really know.

I just think that we should eliminate private sales and require that EVERY gun be documented.

Are people really that nuts that they don't want the government knowing how many and what type of guns they own?

#74 soulvengeance

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 01:30 AM

Are people really that nuts that they don't want the government knowing how many and what type of guns they own?


Yes. In case the government decides that they need to take away weapons from everyone, they surely will use the list to weed out the people with the most guns. Or the coolest ones anyway.
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Calls this what you may, but I would say that Blacks actually benefited from the slavery. Comparing the current lives of many African Americans to Africans, one can see that the former live in much better conditions with greater freedoms and opportunities.


#75 GBAstar

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 01:34 AM

Yes. In case the government decides that they need to take away weapons from everyone, they surely will use the list to weed out the people with the most guns. Or the coolest ones anyway.


Insane. I don't ever see the government doing a full out ban. In fact if they do ban guns I would expect there would be some type of grandfather clause; similar to what was used with the fully automatic weapons.

I just figured people didn't want to report that information because they have several thousand dollars tied up and it would be considered (I assume) a financial asset

#76 soulvengeance

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 01:39 AM

Insane. I don't ever see the government doing a full out ban. In fact if they do ban guns I would expect there would be some type of grandfather clause; similar to what was used with the fully automatic weapons.


I agree, I'm fairly pro gun for the most part, but most pro gun people see it as an all or nothing kind of deal it seems.
mytradelist:
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Calls this what you may, but I would say that Blacks actually benefited from the slavery. Comparing the current lives of many African Americans to Africans, one can see that the former live in much better conditions with greater freedoms and opportunities.


#77 winterice

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 01:59 AM

Ok, learning some things about guns today. I've always thought semi-auto meant holding down the trigger and the firing rate would be between manual firing and auto firing.

Maybe we should gimp the trigger. You know how in those old western films where they have one hand over the lever that hits the bullet. Then you make all rifles the bolt action kind. This is probably not very realistic at all.

Truthfully, I don't think this will lead to any kind of gun control law. Sad but gun control talks seem to only happen when tragedies like these happen and then we put it in the back burners after a month or so.

#78 IRHari

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 02:12 AM

Mandatory ballistics fingerprinting won't stop tragedies like this from happening, but they should reduce the number of daily gun-related deaths significantly by virtue of vastly improving the ability to identify the shooter.


Perhaps, but given that most of these mass shootings are done by crazy motherfuckers who end up killing themselves during the shooting, I'm not sure how effective it'll really be.
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#79 Clak

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 02:26 AM

Somebody told me that the guy was somehow mentally handicapped, but I can't find anything to confirm that, also that the guns used were his mother's.
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#80 highoffcoffee496

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 02:32 AM

Somebody told me that the guy was somehow mentally handicapped, but I can't find anything to confirm that, also that the guns used were his mother's.


This is what I could find about that. Don't know if it's reliable though.

"The neighbor said that Nancy Lanza told friends that her younger son, Adam, was a troubled child with a learning disability who would often rebel against her strict teachings."

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#81 ZombieToast

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 02:58 AM

Somebody told me that the guy was somehow mentally handicapped, but I can't find anything to confirm that, also that the guns used were his mother's.

He shot a bunch of fucking kids...what other confirmation do you need?

#82 mykevermin

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 03:01 AM

Perhaps, but given that most of these mass shootings are done by crazy motherfuckers who end up killing themselves during the shooting, I'm not sure how effective it'll really be.


Well, I'm more concerned about the "mundane" (by news standards) everyday, routine gun-related killings that tend to be concentrated in certain parts of the country.

You can't stop gun-related killings, but you can minimize their impact (magazine size) and you can seek to reduce the possibility that someone who killed before will do so again. fingerprints help target specific people so they don't kill again.

Gun-related fatalities matter far more to me than the too-frequent-but-less-impactful mass killing. The CT mass killing is tragic indeed, but the murders we read in the paper and forget about the moment we turn the page are more tragic, because we don't reflect on what we, as a society, can do to reduce them.
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#83 Clak

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 03:05 AM

He shot a bunch of fucking kids...what other confirmation do you need?

The actual type?
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#84 Clak

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 03:17 AM

Well, I'm more concerned about the "mundane" (by news standards) everyday, routine gun-related killings that tend to be concentrated in certain parts of the country.

You can't stop gun-related killings, but you can minimize their impact (magazine size) and you can seek to reduce the possibility that someone who killed before will do so again. fingerprints help target specific people so they don't kill again.

Gun-related fatalities matter far more to me than the too-frequent-but-less-impactful mass killing. The CT mass killing is tragic indeed, but the murders we read in the paper and forget about the moment we turn the page are more tragic, because we don't reflect on what we, as a society, can do to reduce them.

Here is my thing. In my opinion, gun owners have had it easy for quite some time. We've been able to easily buy guns, and own them in a relatively irresponsible way. Now though we have things like this happening with increasing frequency, and it's getting more obvious that if we want our guns, we need to take responsibility for what they're used for. The citizens of this country have shown that many of us cannot handle firearms responsibly. Of course the constitution doesn't take that into account. Of course, the 2nd amendment makes no mention of how easy it should be to acquire a gun, or of what kind of guns we can have. If you take the context of the time into account, you can have a musket at least. As long as everyone can have at least one "arm", no right has been infringed upon. You're bearing arms, it may not be the one you'd like, or as many as you'd want, but you've got it.
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#85 slidecage

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 03:32 AM

Here is my thing. In my opinion, gun owners have had it easy for quite some time. We've been able to easily buy guns, and own them in a relatively irresponsible way. Now though we have things like this happening with increasing frequency, and it's getting more obvious that if we want our guns, we need to take responsibility for what they're used for. The citizens of this country have shown that many of us cannot handle firearms responsibly. Of course the constitution doesn't take that into account. Of course, the 2nd amendment makes no mention of how easy it should be to acquire a gun, or of what kind of guns we can have. If you take the context of the time into account, you can have a musket at least. As long as everyone can have at least one "arm", no right has been infringed upon. You're bearing arms, it may not be the one you'd like, or as many as you'd want, but you've got it.


banning guns does nothing to stop shit like this ... a person will just bust into someone house who has guns or a place that has guns and take them and shoot people...


I can see why someone says I NEED and have a right to buy a gun

But why the hell do you have the right to buy bullet proof armor its not like the animals are going to shoot back

instead of talking about BANNING GUNS how about BANNING THE PEOPLE SO SELL THE ARMOR
WOOOO I STINK

#86 Spokker

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 03:32 AM

Here is my thing. In my opinion, gun owners have had it easy for quite some time. We've been able to easily buy guns, and own them in a relatively irresponsible way. Now though we have things like this happening with increasing frequency, and it's getting more obvious that if we want our guns, we need to take responsibility for what they're used for. The citizens of this country have shown that many of us cannot handle firearms responsibly.

The low-hanging fruit is the daily gun violence which is predominantly carried out with illegally obtained weapons in places where legal gun ownership is strictly regulated, such as South Shore Chicago, to give one example. Understand that these are only homicides. Many more were wounded. Passing more laws will not prevent these incidents. In fact, by driving up the prices of firearms, you may introduce violence into the act of acquiring firearms in the first place and embedding guns more firmly into the black market, such as what is happening with drug prohibition and what has happened in the past with alcohol prohibition. We already have a black market for weapons and we would be unwise to strengthen it. After all, part of the problem with drug prohibition are the people who knock you over the head and steal your wallet in order to buy the overpriced drugs from the black market. Weapons can also be purchased in this way. Allowing prices to maintain equilibrium is a crime prevention tool.

#87 mykevermin

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 03:36 AM

banning guns does nothing to stop shit like this ... a person will just bust into someone house who has guns or a place that has guns and take them and shoot people...


I can see why someone says I NEED and have a right to buy a gun

But why the hell do you have the right to buy bullet proof armor its not like the animals are going to shoot back

instead of talking about BANNING GUNS how about BANNING THE PEOPLE SO SELL THE ARMOR


I'll send you a dollar in the mail if you can point to a single person in this thread who is advocating "banning guns."

The reason we can't have a discussion about reasonable gun control is because you all have been mindfucked by Wayne LaPierre to think that *any* gun control = gun grab by the fascist state.

You can yuk it up all you want about the "Dey tuk ur jerbs!" jokes on South Park, but when it comes to gun control, you all ape that shit in a way that you simply do not comprehend.
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#88 dohdough

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 03:43 AM

As someone that wants to take up shooting as a hobby(and boy did I get shit on for calling it a hobby as if that's a derogatory term), I can't help but be repulsed by the culture surrounding guns in this country. It's not enough to support gun ownership, but you have to support removing any and all regulation. A democrat got elected president, governor, mayor, or PTA and they're going to take your guns away. Or shit related to being able to open carry. I swear, it's like a goddamned cult.

#89 Mooby

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 03:46 AM

The most recent thing I saw was that the guns -- including the assault rifle (which was apparently grandfathered in as she owned it pre 1993) -- were all legally owned and registered by the mother/teacher. So, no amount of legislation would have really mattered here.

I don't particularly have a strong opinion either way on the issue but it seems to me that more often than not its a complete non-starter in terms of whether or not it would actually prevent the various gun-related tragedies.

#90 dohdough

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 03:54 AM

The most recent thing I saw was the the guns -- including the assault rifle (which was apparently grandfathered in as she owned it pre 1993) -- were all legally owned and registered by the mother/teacher. So, no amount of legislation would have really mattered here.

I don't particularly have a strong opinion either way on the issue but it seems to me that more often than not its a complete non-starter in terms of whether or not it would actually prevent the various gun-related tragedies.

Actually, legislation to ensure that they were properly secured whether by trigger locks or by safe would've gone a long way in preventing this type of tragedy along with the proper resources given to recognize and treat mental illnesses. It might be easier to secure guns than to treat mental illness, but we need to do both.

Either way, I'd still love to see your explanation as to how guns become "illegal."