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Shooting in Conn. School


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#151 GBAstar

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 08:45 AM

I thought all public schools had an armed, plain clothes officer. At least mine did, and I think it's a must.


your elementary school had a plain clothes armed officer? I highly doubt that.

Unless you went to a school that consisted of K-8 or K-12 in the same building then there would have been no need for an armed officer.

We are talking about an elementary school. Just an elementary school. Most likely kindergarten through third grade. Why would they have the need for an officer?

You guys forget that we have close to 400 million people in this country. It hits close to home but it is still very much random. How many people die each year from random acts of violence like this?

#152 The Crotch

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 08:46 AM

I thought all public schools had an armed, plain clothes officer. At least mine did, and I think it's a must.

That would make for a fucking shitload of plain-clothes officers.

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#153 panzerfaust

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 08:50 AM

lol damn i don't know, that's how my entire district was. one officer, a pretty friendly face and all that, very involved and like a dean. thought all schools had one.

i'm not even saying it's a great preventive measure to full out shootings, just seems natural to have one. same kind of guy who saved the people in that board meeting in florida some year ago.

your elementary school had a plain clothes armed officer? I highly doubt that.


he didn't do much shooting but he did presentations and safety talks to classes and was generally seen near the main offices and entrance way. it's a pretty valuable addition to any school, i think.

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#154 cancerman1120

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 10:33 AM

There are about 100,000 public schools. Many of which have been given less and less resources to educate more and more children. To put an armed security guard in every school is just not feasible. A qualified person would have to be well trained (ex military, ex police) and that would not come cheap. Hey I am all for it if it meant good jobs for vets but you think the budget hawks are going to cough up 5 billion a year to pay someone 50k (even if its less with benefits it is a min amount) a year to do this? I am not sure what the solution is really. The sad truth is the chances of these massacres happening are slim but when they do happen it gets a strong (deservedly) response from people.

#155 Temporaryscars

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 10:40 AM

Real talk: do you advocate armed security personnel at every American school?


It's a great question. On one hand, this incident proves just how vulnerable schools tend to be. So based on what we saw, I'd say yes.

On the other hand, many schools resemble prisons already and there have been many documented...issues between police officers and students. That hardly seems like an environment conducive to learning.

Maybe have a police outpost nearby and a door locking system?



#156 mykevermin

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 01:58 PM

Maybe have a police outpost nearby and a door locking system?


You identify as a Libertarian, yes?
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#157 mykevermin

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 02:03 PM

http://news.yahoo.co...-185700637.html

"There is no pattern, there is no increase: says criminologist James Allen Fox of Boston's Northeastern University."

"Chances of being killed in a mass shooting, he says, are probably no greater than being struck by lightning."

"Still, he understands the public perception — and extensive media coverage — when mass shootings occur in places like malls and schools. "There is this feeling that could have been me. It makes it so much more frightening."


Your probability of being a victim in a mass killing is indeed low - and there have been few enough of them that it is hard to argue for a pattern. I disagree with Fox (someone who does know their stuff, by the way) because where he would say "there is no increase" I would argue that there certainly appears to be.

Mass killings are rare enough that we shouldn't base a policy (armed guards in every school, mandatory armed teachers, or some other foolhardy idea from the people who dare argue that *I* am the statist) to stop them. Again, my concern are the common, everyday firearm fatalities that we don't appear to be interested in stopping or basing policy around - we shouldn't base policy around the events that are *un*likely to occur.
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#158 RealDeals

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 02:33 PM

I thought all public schools had an armed, plain clothes officer. At least mine did, and I think it's a must.

My HS had one, but that was more to crack down on their drug policy

EDIT: You're from IL too, huh? I guess it's just an around here thing. Where did you go?
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#159 dmaul1114

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 04:27 PM

Yeah, these things are super rare. No need to have an armed officer in every school. Huge waste of resources given how rare serious violence is in most schools (small rural and suburban schools) etc. Leave that for urban schools in dangerous cities where metal detectors etc. are needed.

The only way to prevent these tragedies is to find ways to improve our mental health system. Even that will never be fool proof as we can't force parents to care about their kids or adults to go to the doctor for help etc. But we can do more for people who are diagnosed with mental health problems and don't have health insurance, or have insurance with lousy coverage for mental health issues to where they can't afford the co-pay.

Beyond that, work on banning high capacity magazines and have an aggressive buy back program for them and assault weapons etc. to try to make them harder to get in hopes that at least body counts will drop when a nut job shoots up a school, theater or other crowded area due to having to reload more often and giving people more windows to take them down without getting mowed down like the principal who lunged at this guy.

Beyond that, I agree 100% with Myke that the real issue is all the normal, single shootings that happen everyday. That's where the vast majority of the 30,000+ firearm deaths in the US are occurring and thus where public policy aimed at reducing violence needs to focus.

#160 Ced

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 06:00 PM

Also another failing in our media: seems like nobody cares to report nor asks questions unless there is a mass catastrophe. As a result, people are gripped with a fear that we need to barricade against against these crazy guys armed to the teeth when in actuality the guy with a single pistol is more of a daily threat. Kind of like how plane crashes make people avoid flying when car crashes are statistically more likely to occur. Again, multi-fatality plane crash gets national attention while single victim car fatality is maybe a blip on the local radar.

#161 Temporaryscars

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 06:21 PM

You identify as a Libertarian, yes?


Yes.



#162 Temporaryscars

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 06:24 PM

Beyond that, work on banning high capacity magazines and have an aggressive buy back program for them and assault weapons etc. to try to make them harder to get in hopes that at least body counts will drop when a nut job shoots up a school, theater or other crowded area due to having to reload more often and giving people more windows to take them down without getting mowed down like the principal who lunged at this guy.


Virginia Tech - 32 killed - 10 round magazines, not a single "assault weapon" used. Shouldn't we be looking for real solutions?



#163 Temporaryscars

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 06:34 PM

Yeesh.

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#164 mykevermin

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 07:05 PM

Yes.


Help me understand how you can rectify being both Libertarian and advocating for turning schools into institutions/asylums.

Focusing on stopping mass killings will save us a few dozen murders a year at best; a focus on gun control could reduce overall firearm-related fatalities pretty significantly, and better treatment/attitude towards mental illnesses might help reduce the mass killings from people who have mental problems without turning primary schools into prison-like facilities.
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#165 Temporaryscars

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 07:20 PM

Help me understand how you can rectify being both Libertarian and advocating for turning schools into institutions/asylums.

Focusing on stopping mass killings will save us a few dozen murders a year at best; a focus on gun control could reduce overall firearm-related fatalities pretty significantly, and better treatment/attitude towards mental illnesses might help reduce the mass killings from people who have mental problems without turning primary schools into prison-like facilities.


I already spoke of my uneasiness of having officers in school. I don't see how having a small outpost outside of the school, where they wouldn't have day to day interaction with students, meets your description. After all, better to have them there than sleeping in their car at the outskirts of those small towns.



#166 EdRyder

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 08:05 PM

Oh Temporary ,. I know we've been down this road before.
I just want to clarify one more time : Why not get rid of a lot of these guns?
Whats the downside again?
We might accidentally elect a tyrant?

Do you agree with the premise that 'when people are determined to do crazy shit , they'll find a way'?
Is that what we learned on 911? (Reminders Note : Sure wasn't what you in particular learned when it came to Benghazi)

So when people dont have access to guns , that doesn't mean the death toll will drop in places like Chicago?
They'll run each other over with cars or stab each other with knives , right?
But when we elect a tyrant , we're all going to need guns if you're determined to get rid of that guy. Knives and cars and poison and flying planes into buildings wont cut it at that point...

#167 Temporaryscars

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 12:19 AM

Getting rid of those guns won't do anything except disarm people who should and have a right to be armed. We've spent 1 trillion dollars and 40 years fighting a war on drugs and yet, your average 9th grader has no problems getting them. Laws against ownership of anything is immoral and not the sign of a free society.

I'm not sure what your "reminders note" is all about, so unless you want to clarify what the Fuck you're talking about, I won't address it.

Guarding against a tyrannical state isn't the only function of wanting to be armed. You can't really compare acts of terrorism to fighting against a tyrannical government. Basically, you're comparing the use of a knife against a well trained, well armed military force to that same knife against a bunch of random, unarmed civilians. The two do NOT compare.

Please, name ONE single gun law that would have kept this incident from happening.



#168 usickenme

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 12:24 AM

So we should do away with all laws cause "people gunna break 'em"? Fact is, the states with strictest gun laws have fewer gun deaths. It's not that difficult to understand. You make anything harder to get, less people will get that thing.

Feeling like one needs a gun to be safe isn't exactly the sign of a free society either.

I have a 7 and 10 year old and I am 100% against having an armed person in the school. It takes something that might having less than .01% odds of happening (gun on school property) and make it a 100% certainty. In the vast majority of case, a mass shooter is taken out my someone who in unarmed (when not killed or taken by police). You don't need a gun to be a hero- if that is your fantasy.

#169 Temporaryscars

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 12:55 AM

So we should do away with all laws cause "people gunna break 'em"?


Of course not, after all, you have to be able to charge them with something, but things like murder and assault are already illegal.

Fact is, the states with strictest gun laws have fewer gun deaths. It's not that difficult to understand. You make anything harder to get, less people will get that thing.


And yet, gun free areas like Washington DC and Chicago are some of the most violent cities in the US. A disarmed public makes for easy pickings for criminals who don't give a shit what gun laws are. Here where I live, it's very difficult to get a pistol permit, and yet, almost every day there's a shooting.


Feeling like one needs a gun to be safe isn't exactly the sign of a free society either.


Sure it is. Free doesn't mean safe.

I have a 7 and 10 year old and I am 100% against having an armed person in the school. It takes something that might having less than .01% odds of happening (gun on school property) and make it a 100% certainty. In the vast majority of case, a mass shooter is taken out my someone who in unarmed (when not killed or taken by police). You don't need a gun to be a hero- if that is your fantasy.


You're right, you don't need a gun to be a hero, so we should take them away from the police and military then.

How would you feel about a police outpost on school grounds, but not a part of the everyday school population?



#170 usickenme

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 01:32 AM

oh boy..

Of course not, after all, you have to be able to charge them with something, but things like murder and assault are already illegal.


Laws change with the people's will. Honestly, I'm not sure where I'm going with this. Just think the old "well criminals will still do crime" line is weak. It's defeatist and clearly counter to everyone of our laws.

And yet, gun free areas like Washington DC and Chicago are some of the most violent cities in the US. A disarmed public makes for easy pickings for criminals who don't give a shit what gun laws are. Here where I live, it's very difficult to get a pistol permit, and yet, almost every day there's a shooting.


1.) I don't care about anecdotes. 2.) Yet gun "free for all" areas also have some of the most violent cities (like the majority of the south) Guess criminals don't really care if you are packing or not. A disarmed public means less guns. PERIOD. Criminals aren't manufacturing guns, their stealing them.

Sure it is. Free doesn't mean safe.


Sorry but bullshit (although I do concede that freedom from fear isn't a right grant by the Constitution but guns are, unfortunately)


You're right, you don't need a gun to be a hero, so we should take them away from the police and military then.



Works for the UK but again I'm not making that point. Weapons have a place in society. Also, those people are 100% guaranteed to be trained. Equating them with the average is useless.

How would you feel about a police outpost on school grounds, but not a part of the everyday school population?


I wouldn't like anything on school grounds. How far away from the police station is the average school? I would think most are within 5 minutes.

Edited by usickenme, 17 December 2012 - 01:44 AM.


#171 Temporaryscars

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 01:50 AM

oh boy..



Laws change with the people's will. Honestly, I'm not sure where I'm going with this. Just think the old "well criminals will still do crime" line is weak. It's defeatist and clearly counter to everyone of our laws.


No, saying that we should restrict everyone because of the actions of a few is defeatist. Would you be cool with restrictions on your ability to speak just because the Westboro members say ridiculous things?

1.) I don't care about anecdotes. 2.) Yet gun "free for all" areas also have some of the most violent cities (like the majority of the south) Guess criminals don't really care if you are packing or not. A disarmed public means less guns. PERIOD. Criminals aren't manufacturing guns, their stealing them.


What anecdotes? There are plenty of examples of high gun/high gun crime areas just as there are high gun/low gun crime areas. The stats on these things just aren't clear cut as there are many other factors that play into these things.

In 2011, in NY State, a place with strict gun control, had 770 counts of murder (btw, this excludes NYC just to be fair).

In 2011, Alabama (which I picked at random), had 311.

Robbery? NY - 28,317, Alabama - 4, 885.

Now, perhaps NY state (remember, not including NYC) has a higher population than Alabama, but it can't be that much higher.

Just look at stats regarding the last AWB. It had no effect on violent crime. In fact, it went up during the ban.

Now, you can argue that gun violence goes down during such bans, but who gives a shit the method by which one is killed when murder rates either stay the same or go up during these bans?

Make it tougher to get these guns? Mags? Safety requirements? It's not something I'm totally against. Full out bans? Again, it's not a solution to the problem.

Sorry but bullshit



Ok, how is it bullshit? When has free ever been equated to safe? In fact, in many ways, they tend to negate each other.

Works for the UK but again I'm not making that point. Weapons have a place in society. Also, those people are 100% guaranteed to be trained. Equating them with the average is useless.


http://www.syracuse...._empire_st.html

I wouldn't like anything on school grounds. How far away from the police station is the average school? I would think most are within 5 minutes.


I completely get where you're coming from on that. But a lot can happen in five minutes. This is a prime example.



#172 EdRyder

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 02:38 AM

Please, name ONE single gun law that would have kept this incident from happening.


There isnt one and you know that. Its not about any 1 specific law so your point is ridiculous. Look at it like this : This guy would've passed a background check. All he had was parking tickets...
You're okay with that?

Last time I checked as much as I hate the Westboro baptists cult , they didnt actually kill anyone.
And I'll add this:
With freedom of speech there comes a price. The price is you have to tolerate these annoying assholes and their retard opinion on god.
The price we pay for this other freedom has gotten too high.

Whats the need?


As much as we all hate those people , lets be serious here - If someone was killed at one of their protests , yeah , we'd all be talking about restricting them from protesting funerals again. Thats just the truth of it

#173 Temporaryscars

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 02:53 AM

There isnt one and you know that. Its not about any 1 specific law so your point is ridiculous. Look at it like this : This guy would've passed a background check. All he had was parking tickets...
You're okay with that?


Absolutely not. Now tell me how banning the ownership of things would have changed that.


Whats the need?


Luckily, my life isn't determined by what you think I need and don't need.



#174 cancerman1120

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 03:38 AM

Oh boy did my brother-in-law lose his shit when the President came on TV. We were watching the Niners-Patriots game and they cut to the President and he yells "wonderful way to ruin the game". Then when Obama starts with the scripture (which personally I could do without) he gets up and yells "he's a frickin Muslim, he is an abomination", walks out of the room and says "I cannot look at him without wanting to throw up". Now I was no fan of George Bush and frankly thought he was a moron but I never felt like how he was ranting and raving. When the game comes back on I said the Niners scored and I wondered how. His response was we will never know since the President was using a tragedy to promote his own anti-gun agenda..."sickening". I was thinking 9/11? The conservatives have ridden that horse till is died, was buried and then dug it back up again. It is sad the President could not even say the word "gun" when talking about change. He mentioned mental health which is good but it is a combo of many things that need to change.

#175 Temporaryscars

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 03:40 AM

I agree completely.



#176 Clak

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 03:47 AM

Yeah, these things are super rare. No need to have an armed officer in every school. Huge waste of resources given how rare serious violence is in most schools (small rural and suburban schools) etc. Leave that for urban schools in dangerous cities where metal detectors etc. are needed.

The only way to prevent these tragedies is to find ways to improve our mental health system. Even that will never be fool proof as we can't force parents to care about their kids or adults to go to the doctor for help etc. But we can do more for people who are diagnosed with mental health problems and don't have health insurance, or have insurance with lousy coverage for mental health issues to where they can't afford the co-pay.

Beyond that, work on banning high capacity magazines and have an aggressive buy back program for them and assault weapons etc. to try to make them harder to get in hopes that at least body counts will drop when a nut job shoots up a school, theater or other crowded area due to having to reload more often and giving people more windows to take them down without getting mowed down like the principal who lunged at this guy.

Beyond that, I agree 100% with Myke that the real issue is all the normal, single shootings that happen everyday. That's where the vast majority of the 30,000+ firearm deaths in the US are occurring and thus where public policy aimed at reducing violence needs to focus.

Someone on NPR earlier seemed to be saying we need a system to report people by. So that if Jim at work starts acting weird, you can report him to some agency.

Which I think would lead us down are really scary path personally. You piss off the wrong person, next thing you know they're reporting you as being unstable and you're having to deal with that.
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#177 cancerman1120

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 03:57 AM

Someone on NPR earlier seemed to be saying we need a system to report people by. So that if Jim at work starts acting weird, you can report him to some agency.

Which I think would lead us down are really scary path personally. You piss off the wrong person, next thing you know they're reporting you as being unstable and you're having to deal with that.


Yeah I am not sure exactly how you handle it. I think you need to start young and have a system in place where parents can feel like they can go to express concerns about their own children. There are a lot of families out there with mentally unstable children that never get dealt with and they end up snapping like this guy did. Right now our treatment of mental illness is pretty much as long as they are not committing a crime the police want nothing to do with and if they do then they just want to throw them in jail. We need a better system for the Police to handle these people. I would agree though that a general "1-800" number style system could be abused.

#178 Clak

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 04:00 AM

There isnt one and you know that. Its not about any 1 specific law so your point is ridiculous. Look at it like this : This guy would've passed a background check. All he had was parking tickets...
You're okay with that?

Last time I checked as much as I hate the Westboro baptists cult , they didnt actually kill anyone.
And I'll add this:
With freedom of speech there comes a price. The price is you have to tolerate these annoying assholes and their retard opinion on god.
The price we pay for this other freedom has gotten too high.

Whats the need?


As much as we all hate those people , lets be serious here - If someone was killed at one of their protests , yeah , we'd all be talking about restricting them from protesting funerals again. Thats just the truth of it

There is no need for many of the guns people like to buy. No civilian needs an assult rifle, I don't care that it's not full auto. Like I said earlier, since we've got chest thumpers here who like to bring up the 2nd amendment, I'll even work within the context of the time that was written. You want a musket? Knock yaself out. Cause that's what the authors had in mind when it was written. You think Patrick Henry envisioned something like an AR-15? Doubt it. Now I know the same people will argue that's ridiculous, and I'd expect nothing less, but the argument that we need guns to somehow protect us from our own government is ridiculous too. You standing there with your little assault rifle is equivalent to standing there with a musket because neither you, nor your compatriots have shit when it comes to the arms the military has access to. The time when military and civilian arms were roughly equal has long since passed, and there is no way in hell that any civilian needs a a rocket launcher or other explosives.

So in short, you're delusional if you think your little cache of arms is going to stop the government. You need to stop using that argument and wake up to reality.
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#179 Temporaryscars

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 04:01 AM

Yeah, plus, who would look into the situation? Would calls with concerns be handled by law enforcement (not good) or licensed mental healthcare professionals?

I honestly think that safety requirements (gun safe, etc) and maybe even a mental health evaluation on file (to be renewed every five years) as part of the NICS system would go a long way to preventing many of these incidents.

What could we do about our violent culture though? I don't see any clear solutions for that.



#180 Clak

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 04:02 AM

Yeah I am not sure exactly how you handle it. I think you need to start young and have a system in place where parents can feel like they can go to express concerns about their own children. There are a lot of families out there with mentally unstable children that never get dealt with and they end up snapping like this guy did. Right now our treatment of mental illness is pretty much as long as they are not committing a crime the police want nothing to do with and if they do then they just want to throw them in jail. We need a better system for the Police to handle these people. I would agree though that a general "1-800" number style system could be abused.

Well they're point was this, you can do something about it when they're under 18, assuming you recognize it. You can have a kid committed against their will basically. You can't easily do that to an adult. That guys argument seemed to be that we should be able to, but I just don't know how you'd do it without it being used to just Fuck with people.
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