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Questions about package loss during trading after you sent the payment (updated)


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#31 whoknows

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 07:40 PM

I disagree that it's all on the seller. He did his part and mailed it out.

If it truly was lost then refunding half is more than reasonable.

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#32 Decepticreep

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 07:46 PM

I'm stil curious who the seller was...

#33 GBAstar

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 08:14 PM

I disagree that it's all on the seller. He did his part and mailed it out.

If it truly was lost then refunding half is more than reasonable.


you're kidding right? That is absolutely NOT how e-commerce works. Insurance does and always has protected just the seller.

The buyer has fulfilled their obligation in a sale by making payment and providing a correct shipping address. Everything after payment has been made is the responsibility of the seller.

#34 whoknows

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 08:28 PM

you're kidding right? That is absolutely NOT how e-commerce works. Insurance does and always has protected just the seller.

The buyer has fulfilled their obligation in a sale by making payment and providing a correct shipping address. Everything after payment has been made is the responsibility of the seller.


I disagree. I see the sellers responsibility as getting the item sent out in a timely manner. It's not under their control if the carrier loses it.

If it's something like the item was poorly packed and it's damaged when it gets to the buyer, then yeah, something like that is on the seller, but in this case the seller did nothing wrong. He mailed it out and has proof that he mailed it out. If it was lost (which we know it wasn't) I can't see the seller as being at fault.

This is CAG, just two people trading, it's not Amazon where refunding or replacing doesn't really affect them in a noticeable way. I expect people to be more reasonable and understanding on here.

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#35 Rozz

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 01:04 AM

I disagree. I see the sellers responsibility as getting the item sent out in a timely manner. It's not under their control if the carrier loses it.

If it's something like the item was poorly packed and it's damaged when it gets to the buyer, then yeah, something like that is on the seller, but in this case the seller did nothing wrong. He mailed it out and has proof that he mailed it out. If it was lost (which we know it wasn't) I can't see the seller as being at fault.

This is CAG, just two people trading, it's not Amazon where refunding or replacing doesn't really affect them in a noticeable way. I expect people to be more reasonable and understanding on here.


It doesn't matter where the transaction is taking place, it is the seller's responsibility for the package to get to the buyer safely.

#36 DoubleEcksZero

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:00 AM

I disagree that it's all on the seller. He did his part and mailed it out.

If it truly was lost then refunding half is more than reasonable.


I also disagree on it being on the Sellers responsibility. For one thing insurance, is 100% on the buyer. I never buy insurance unless I'm asked to do so, and if I'm asked your paying for it not me.

Additionally, it's the sellers responsibility to get it in the mail, but they have zero control over USPS, so unless the seller made a mistake in packaging or shipping, I don't think he should be held 100% responsible. I know if it where me, I would not provide a 100% discount. I thoroughly think a 50% refund is reasonable and appropriate.

In fact, I think I was in a situation like this once, I can't remember which side I was on, but someones package got lost in the mail. We decided on the same course of action, with no arguments, a 50% refund to the buyer. In the end it never happened as the package turned up, but refunding half is the most fair way to go. You have to remember, the seller is loosing just as much as the buyer is. This isn't a business, and individual CAGS can't be held to the same e-commerce standard as amazon, or some B&M retail outlet.

#37 DoubleEcksZero

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:07 AM

It doesn't matter where the transaction is taking place, it is the seller's responsibility for the package to get to the buyer safely.


No, it's the sellers responsibility to do everything in their power to facilitate getting the package to get to the buyer safely.
This is one person trading with another, this is not a store. There is no refund policy, or agreement for delivery protection. As a seller, you must try to get the package in the hands of the buyer, but when things go wrong, I think everyone on both sides needs to be reasonable and understanding, and come to a fair and equitable agreement that leaves both sides, the buyers, and the sellers equally satisfied, or as close to satisfied as can be gotten with the remaining product and funds.

#38 Rozz

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 03:59 AM

No, it's the sellers responsibility to do everything in their power to facilitate getting the package to get to the buyer safely.
This is one person trading with another, this is not a store. There is no refund policy, or agreement for delivery protection. As a seller, you must try to get the package in the hands of the buyer, but when things go wrong, I think everyone on both sides needs to be reasonable and understanding, and come to a fair and equitable agreement that leaves both sides, the buyers, and the sellers equally satisfied, or as close to satisfied as can be gotten with the remaining product and funds.


The buyer already did their part by paying you. If you choose a shipper that loses the package then it is on you. They would have every right to file a PayPal dispute against you if the tracking says it was never delivered. Store or not, you have the responsibility of getting the buyer their item if they exchanged money or goods for your product.

#39 whoknows

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 07:08 AM

I also disagree on it being on the Sellers responsibility. For one thing insurance, is 100% on the buyer. I never buy insurance unless I'm asked to do so, and if I'm asked your paying for it not me.

Additionally, it's the sellers responsibility to get it in the mail, but they have zero control over USPS, so unless the seller made a mistake in packaging or shipping, I don't think he should be held 100% responsible. I know if it where me, I would not provide a 100% discount. I thoroughly think a 50% refund is reasonable and appropriate.

In fact, I think I was in a situation like this once, I can't remember which side I was on, but someones package got lost in the mail. We decided on the same course of action, with no arguments, a 50% refund to the buyer. In the end it never happened as the package turned up, but refunding half is the most fair way to go. You have to remember, the seller is loosing just as much as the buyer is. This isn't a business, and individual CAGS can't be held to the same e-commerce standard as amazon, or some B&M retail outlet.


Pretty much this. If the buyer wants insurance it's up to them to ask for and pay for it.

Also agreed about what the sellers responsibility is.

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#40 GBAstar

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 10:25 AM

I also disagree on it being on the Sellers responsibility. For one thing insurance, is 100% on the buyer. I never buy insurance unless I'm asked to do so, and if I'm asked your paying for it not me.

Additionally, it's the sellers responsibility to get it in the mail, but they have zero control over USPS, so unless the seller made a mistake in packaging or shipping, I don't think he should be held 100% responsible. I know if it where me, I would not provide a 100% discount. I thoroughly think a 50% refund is reasonable and appropriate.

In fact, I think I was in a situation like this once, I can't remember which side I was on, but someones package got lost in the mail. We decided on the same course of action, with no arguments, a 50% refund to the buyer. In the end it never happened as the package turned up, but refunding half is the most fair way to go. You have to remember, the seller is loosing just as much as the buyer is. This isn't a business, and individual CAGS can't be held to the same e-commerce standard as amazon, or some B&M retail outlet.


Pretty much this. If the buyer wants insurance it's up to them to ask for and pay for it.

Also agreed about what the sellers responsibility is.


What are you guys stuck in 1999?

Find one reputable trading website or marketplace or payment processor that agrees with you that "insurance is for the buyer".

That isn't how things work. As a seller you are contracting USPS/UPS/Fed Ex to deliver a package for you. If they fail to do so that is YOUR problem---NOT the buyer's.

The only responsibility a buyer has is to make payment.

#41 Yamato

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 12:09 PM

What are you guys stuck in 1999?

Find one reputable trading website or marketplace or payment processor that agrees with you that "insurance is for the buyer".

That isn't how things work. As a seller you are contracting USPS/UPS/Fed Ex to deliver a package for you. If they fail to do so that is YOUR problem---NOT the buyer's.

The only responsibility a buyer has is to make payment.


This. I honestly cannot believe that these guys think that the buyer should bear some of the burden. If you bought something from Amazon and the package was lost, you're telling me that you'd be fine not getting a full refund? You'd be fine with partially paying for something you never even received?

"Oh, but wait! Amazon is a store! They can't possibly be compared to two regular people buying and selling on a trading forum!"

Why not? Amazon, as the seller, contracts UPS to deliver the item to you. This is the same thing the CAG is doing. It doesn't matter who is selling or who is buying, it is the same circumstance at the end of the day. A buyer is paying to receive something from the seller, who makes a decision on how to get the item to the buyer. This includes choosing a carrier service, such as the USPS, and choosing shipping options, such as First Class, Priority, Delivery or Signature Confirmation, and insurance. It is up to the seller which services are used.

I just sold a laptop on eBay and chose to buy Signature Confirmation for my protection. I didn't buy insurance, however, because I wanted to save money. I instead put my faith in the USPS that I wouldn't have any problems. My laptop had an estimated delivery date set, but on that date, the laptop was still at a sorting facility in my state where it had been sitting for days. Months before, I had already lost one package to this same sorting facility (by the way, I gave the buyer a full refund).

Now, if this laptop ended up lost, you're telling me that I am not at fault for not buying insurance? It is reasonable to ask my buyer to only accept $250 back from a $500 purchase because he didn't ask me to ship with insurance? I don't think so. The first thing I did was call the USPS and had them open an investigation. I chose them to deliver my laptop, so it is my responsibility to ensure that they follow through.


I get that the seller has done nothing wrong and that the fault lies with the carrier. It is still the seller's responsibility, though. It sucks that the seller is going to take a loss, but that is just how it is. Asking the buyer to share the burden is crazy. If they are willing to accept it, though, more power to them. I know that if a seller asked me to accept a partial refund and refused to give all of my money back I would be filing a paypal claim and leaving a negative feedback. I would definitely sympathize with the buyer, but it isn't my responsibility.

Anyway,

As for the OP and his issue, the tracking number has updated with activity and it seems the package was misdirected but is now on the way to being delivered. I have spoken with the seller in question and it seems there was more to the story than the OP has let on. Some people in here, including myself, jumped to conclusions without hearing both sides of the story.

Mods have already been contacted and things are getting resolved, so there is no sense in continuing the discussion of seller responsibility in this thread. If we're still going to talk about this, we should create a new thread in an appropriate forum and direct the discussion there.

#42 krashhole

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 01:08 PM

Good thing this was only a $22 game

#43 DoubleEcksZero

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:00 PM

It is very important to make the distinction between a private seller, and a retail outlet. This is NOT by any means, a store, and that is important when determining responsibility. The seller is NOT responsible for the item once it leaves their hands, and yes most stores if you want to protect your item in shipping, you have to request it, and pay extra for insurance. Generally it's called using UPS, since it's auto insured, but occasionally you can just buy extra USPS insurance, but it is the buyers responsibility.

Additionally, there are plenty of situations where a retail outlet will leave you out in the cold in regards to getting your items. You are taking for granted that Amazon, and big outlets with reputations to uphold will go above and beyond to satisfy a whiny customer, but a small mom and pop organization, can easily just say "no, it's not my problem", because it isn't. It usually doesn't happen, but its a very real possibility.

Look, bottom line. The Seller has a responsibility to make good in some way, but not with a 100% refund. This is a community, not a store. This is an individual, not a corporation with insurance, he can recap his costs for lost/stolen items. Asking the seller is a jerk move, and gouging him for double the costs spent, he lost the items, and the payment, that's BS. Fairest condition, assuming there was no foul play, and all parities made no mistakes is a half refund.

#44 GBAstar

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:12 PM

It is very important to make the distinction between a private seller, and a retail outlet. This is NOT by any means, a store, and that is important when determining responsibility. The seller is NOT responsible for the item once it leaves their hands, and yes most stores if you want to protect your item in shipping, you have to request it, and pay extra for insurance. Generally it's called using UPS, since it's auto insured, but occasionally you can just buy extra USPS insurance, but it is the buyers responsibility.

Additionally, there are plenty of situations where a retail outlet will leave you out in the cold in regards to getting your items. You are taking for granted that Amazon, and big outlets with reputations to uphold will go above and beyond to satisfy a whiny customer, but a small mom and pop organization, can easily just say "no, it's not my problem", because it isn't. It usually doesn't happen, but its a very real possibility.

Look, bottom line. The Seller has a responsibility to make good in some way, but not with a 100% refund. This is a community, not a store. This is an individual, not a corporation with insurance, he can recap his costs for lost/stolen items. Asking the seller is a jerk move, and gouging him for double the costs spent, he lost the items, and the payment, that's BS. Fairest condition, assuming there was no foul play, and all parities made no mistakes is a half refund.


You are absolutely 100% wrong and you will not be able to find any valid information to back up what you claim to be true.

This is NOT by any means, a store, and that is important when determining responsibility. The seller is NOT responsible for the item once it leaves their hands,


False.

and yes most stores if you want to protect your item in shipping, you have to request it, and pay extra for insurance.


False.

Generally it's called using UPS, since it's auto insured, but occasionally you can just buy extra USPS insurance, but it is the buyers responsibility.


False.

but a small mom and pop organization, can easily just say "no, it's not my problem", because it isn't. It usually doesn't happen, but its a very real possibility.


False.

Asking the seller is a jerk move, and gouging him for double the costs spent, he lost the items, and the payment, that's BS. Fairest condition, assuming there was no foul play, and all parities made no mistakes is a half refund.


False.

#45 DoubleEcksZero

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:20 PM

Actually none of that is false, and just coming in here and claiming that it is means nothing. You can go now, Thanks.

#46 GBAstar

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:29 PM

Actually none of that is false, and just coming in here and claiming that it is means nothing. You can go now, Thanks.


Again if we time warped back to 1999 some of that would be true. But as it stands today, if you are conducting business and you accepted PayPal or any type of payment that is backed by a credit card everything you mentioned is false; regardless if you are a small seller or Walmart.com

I don't trade on CAG but if you can point out where it states in the Trading Forum that the seller has no responsibility for the item once it leaves their possession I'll recant my statements.

In modern day eCommerce it is 100% the sellers responsibility to make sure they can show proof that the item was delivered based on the T&C set forth by the merchant they used to accept paypment. If it is PayPal you must show that the item was delivered to the zip code in which the buyer lives (under $250) or you must show signature confirmation if the purchase is over $250 (lemme guess.... it's the buyers responsibility to pay for signature confirmation.... right? right? WRONG).

Most Credit Card companies have identical policies.

Where this was a transaction that wasn't funded by either (trade on a trading forum) then the seller must adhere to whatever policies are in place on CAG.

Where one party received the goods as described and assuming the other party doesn't (the tracking has updated so let's hope they do) then the person who mailed the game is 100% at fault.

They chose to ship the item by USPS. That was their choice. It's pretty fucking simple.

#47 DoubleEcksZero

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:44 PM

Again if we time warped back to 1999 some of that would be true. But as it stands today, if you are conducting business and you accepted PayPal or any type of payment that is backed by a credit card everything you mentioned is false; regardless if you are a small seller or Walmart.com

I don't trade on CAG but if you can point out where it states in the Trading Forum that the seller has no responsibility for the item once it leaves their possession I'll recant my statements.

In modern day eCommerce it is 100% the sellers responsibility to make sure they can show proof that the item was delivered based on the T&C set forth by the merchant they used to accept paypment. If it is PayPal you must show that the item was delivered to the zip code in which the buyer lives (under $250) or you must show signature confirmation if the purchase is over $250 (lemme guess.... it's the buyers responsibility to pay for signature confirmation.... right? right? WRONG).

Most Credit Card companies have identical policies.

Where this was a transaction that wasn't funded by either (trade on a trading forum) then the seller must adhere to whatever policies are in place on CAG.

Where one party received the goods as described and assuming the other party doesn't (the tracking has updated so let's hope they do) then the person who mailed the game is 100% at fault.

They chose to ship the item by USPS. That was their choice. It's pretty fucking simple.


False, not a store, end of story.

Point out on the trading forum on where is says there is this specific responsibility, What, You can't? Exactly.

Now your statements are are just getting ridiculous, you show me one store that give 100% free, constant signature confirmation, or UPS ground, or Fed Ex, none of them do. Of course it's on the seller to pay extra of shipping protection, especially in a non-store environment.

There is a reason there is a 2 - 5 day USPS Priority, and a 2 - 5 day UPS Ground, that cost different prices. Cause one is insured, and it's up to the buyer to pay for it.

These arguments don't matter, cause this isn't a store, that's all there is to it. This is a TRADING community, not a store, and the rules are different.

#48 GBAstar

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:53 PM

False, not a store, end of story.

Point out on the trading forum on where is says there is this specific responsibility, What, You can't? Exactly.

Now your statements are are just getting ridiculous, you show me one store that give 100% free, constant signature confirmation, or UPS ground, or Fed Ex, none of them do. Of course it's on the seller to pay extra of shipping protection, especially in a non-store environment.

There is a reason there is a 2 - 5 day USPS Priority, and a 2 - 5 day UPS Ground, that cost different prices. Cause one is insured, and it's up to the buyer to pay for it.

These arguments don't matter, cause this isn't a store, that's all there is to it. This is a TRADING community, not a store, and the rules are different.





For any shipment, regardless of shipping method, it is highly recommended to add in a delivery confirmation, either picked up at the shipper's cost, or worked into the shipping price for the item. It's a small money expense that can add in some peace of mind for both parties, knowing that they both can keep an eye on it via the USPS website, which can be set up to send out email status updates for the package. If the item is either expensive, hard to replace, or both, insurance for the item(s)' worth is a very good idea, either assumed at the shipper's cost or worked into the shipping cost. It's a very good idea to PM (or email) the buyer the DC for the box being shipped, so they can track the item as it's being shipped.


Derpity Derp Derp

#49 WV Matsui

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 03:09 PM

The buyer fulfilled his obligation by paying for the item.

The seller's obligation was to ensure the item reached its destination and was in the condition that was stated. His end has yet to be fulfilled.

I would side with the buyer and say he either should receive the game in which he paid for or a refund of $22.

#50 DoubleEcksZero

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 03:45 PM

Derpity Derp Derp


DC is not insurance, and is a different issue. So, Derp yourself.

Additionally, "Worked into to selling price" means, buyer is paying for it. So Derp yourself, Again.

Look, I'm done with you. The fact of the matter is, this is not a store, this is a trading community, with a set of rules put forth by moderators, and followed by the users. Delivery confirmation is expected in every trade now, cause it was developed as a standard for CAG, not because e-commerce requires it, and Insurance/rules for lost packages has not developed in the same manner for CAG. I've gotten many packages from ebay and other places with no delivery confirmation.

This being the case, and clearly a torn one, it's not up to me or you to decide, you can be as wrong as you'd like to be, but I'll wait for a mod to decide on the issue. If a mod says, a buyer is responsible for lost packages, I will happily add a caveat to my tradelist that says "by accepting any trades you understand that my responsibility ends when I drop the package off with USPS, and I will gladly work with you to reach an equitable agreement in the case of a lost item, but you are not entitled to a 100% refund". That is all.

#51 spooie_redux

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 09:14 AM

Say the seller mails out the package but the address supplied by the buyer has some sort of discrepancy in it and the mail is never received... who would be at fault? The seller shipped the package to the correct address and the address itself was not correct, and because it could not be delivered, say it was "lost" upon returning it.... How would anyone know that the package wasn't attempted for delivery? How would anyone know that the address it was shipped to was not a deliverable address?

Say the package was shipped certified and the post office requires a signature to drop it off. The buyer was not home at the time the delivery attempt was made and never thought to check with his local postal agency to see if they were holding it, as many places will do. Would the seller be expected to refund the buyer because the buyer wasn't home and didn't check his local post office? Some places will hold it up to two months before they ship it back to the sender.

Say the seller sends the package and the buyer, for god-only-knows what reason, had to temporarily relocate to another residence (fire, chemical evacuation from train wreck, remodeling, zombie attack, etc)... and the package could not be delivered due to the lack of a forwarding address and/or no mail receptacle, and in the process of not being able to deliver it, the package was sent back to the seller but got lost in the mail upon return... would the buyer or seller be at fault?

I deal with returned mail in my job every day and things come back to my office for all sorts of reasons, and almost every single one of them has a little yellow sticker ranging from "attempted not known" to "not deliverable as addressed" to "no such street" to "no such number" to "return to sender" to "unable to forward" to "no mail receptacle" to "no forwarding order on file" to "moved, left no address" to "vacant" to and actual forwarding address. It can be a pain.

My favorite one is "attempted, not known" because it could mean anything. My second favorite one is "not deliverable as addressed" because that could mean either the address on the envelope is wrong or illegible or that address does not actually exist. My favorite all-time "returned to my office" piece of mail was correspondence sent out in 1983 that was returned to our possession in 2008. The envelope had been "misplaced" by USPS for almost 25 years.

anyhoo... The problem is that the buyer could have fulfilled his end of the deal, which is to pay for hte items. And the seller can fulfill their their end by shipping it off as intended. So, personally, what I would say to sellers is... offer insurance. If the seller doesn't take it, you're not inclined to be responsible if something gets lost. And if the seller requests the item be shipped a certain way through a certain carrier, the seller also shouldn't be at fault.

That's just my take.

BTW... the package arrived yesterday according to the tracking number. :roll: