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Report: New Sony Patent Blocks Second Hand Games


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#31 Salamando3000

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:50 AM

This might not even kill Gamestop. Having not read the patent itself, I'm wondering how feasible it would be for GS to work with Sony to either replace tags or reset them to their default state.

Or how feasible it would be to create a "skeleton tag" that'd allow a game to work on infinite consoles (for renting purposes). If it is possible, it'd be better than the current system. No "online passes" crap preventing online play for rentals.


#32 Hybrid5006

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:59 AM

Contactless RF tag on each copy of the game. If it works, sounds like a fairly brilliant way of removing used games without relying on the internet. I wonder how long it'll take hackers to either find a way to replace RF tags or to find a way to record the "unused" state of a tag and use that to rewrite the tag when they want to sell it.

I'll still just continue to buy games when the content is worth the cost. This'll just change how cost is calculated.


LOL... only Sony would think to use the easiest hackable wireless technology there is. Probably take 10 minutes for someone to hack.

#33 Blaster man

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 01:02 AM

You guys are making some naive assumptions on both sides of the equation. GameStop will be provided with a device to reset the RFID chips. They won't go out of business. They'll be perfectly fine. The only people this will hurt will be the gamers who won't be able to resell games on eBay for higher prices than GameStop gives. Then of course, GameStop will be able to pay much less since there will be less competition. Oh and when your console breaks, I hope you don't mind rebuying all your games or paying Sony a $5 fee per game to get them reset.

I can't imaging many CAG's would buy a PS4 with this tech in it.

#34 Vader582

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 01:03 AM

What happens when your console breaks after 13 months? Now you are not only out a $100+ repair fee or $300-$400 replacement, but your full library of 20-30 games become garbage?


It'll have to be similar to the iTunes Store. It tracks what games you've purchased and you're allowed a number of downloads or have a finite number of machines on which you can place the software. This stuff is already occurring with the PSP, iOS products, the Vita, and the PS3. It's not a stretch to see this next gen IMO.

#35 62t

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 01:08 AM

What happens when your console breaks after 13 months? Now you are not only out a $100+ repair fee or $300-$400 replacement, but your full library of 20-30 games become garbage?


The same thing that happens when your PS3 or Xbox 360 break? You should be able to transfer everything to a new system.

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#36 Salamando3000

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 01:16 AM

The same thing that happens when your PS3 or Xbox 360 break? You should be able to transfer everything to a new system.


I feel like someone should mention the patent app specifically refers to the ID as "reproduction device ID or a user ID". There's still the question of "what if I never take my system online". Allow for backing up on a USB dongle or in the controller itself perhaps? Or actually keep all info on a memory card that's required to even start the system?


#37 Blaster man

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 01:17 AM

The same thing that happens when your PS3 or Xbox 360 break? You should be able to transfer everything to a new system.


He's making a comparison of digital to physical media. Nonsensical.

#38 htz

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 01:18 AM

I can't imaging many CAG's would buy a PS4 with this tech in it.

I would buy it, if Sony offers crazy sales like steam and continue with PS+.

#39 Blaster man

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 01:23 AM

I would buy it, if Sony offers crazy sales like steam and continue with PS+.


Wait, you'll buy it IF Sony offers sales or you'll wait for sales and then decide its okay to buy it????

#40 GBAstar

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 01:24 AM

I would buy it, if Sony offers crazy sales like steam and continue with PS+.


I would buy it too. People had no problem buying a system with no WiFi, a high failure rate and dated technology as the optical drive.

If it ever did happen I'm sure most of the issues in this thread would be addressed. The only people that really get hurt are those that only buy used or those that resell used media.

I would actually even support the tech if as I mentioned earlier it allowed them to take a break from the $60 MSRP pricing structure

#41 AugustAPC

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 01:40 AM

Shit sickens me. Used products are available in every other market. Why does the gaming industry feel they're entitled to privileges the rest of the world doesn't get?

They've already exploited DLC to make it the worst thing to ever happen to gaming. Now they're gonna try this? If this happens, I won't be buying a Playstation 4. This coming from a person who owns a PSP, PS1, PS2, PS3 and buys AT LEAST 10 new games a year.

There are plenty benefits that the used gaming market provides to developers. If it weren't for used gaming, I wouldn't be able to afford as many brand new games as I can now.

I give so much support to game developers. I buy niche games, I buy AAA games, I buy every system... but they just keep shitting on me. If any developer tries this, I'm just gonna start treating them the way they treat us. I'll by myself a nice computer and pirate all their games.

We are only a 2 or 3 generations from going full digital anyway.


Will never happen. There's far too much to lose.

#42 msdmoney

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 04:13 AM

Shit sickens me. Used products are available in every other market. Why does the gaming industry feel they're entitled to privileges the rest of the world doesn't get?

They've already exploited DLC to make it the worst thing to ever happen to gaming. Now they're gonna try this? If this happens, I won't be buying a Playstation 4. This coming from a person who owns a PSP, PS1, PS2, PS3 and buys AT LEAST 10 new games a year.

There are plenty benefits that the used gaming market provides to developers. If it weren't for used gaming, I wouldn't be able to afford as many brand new games as I can now.


I agree with you on the used physical market, I hope the market punishes any company that goes this route. Although games drop in price so quickly, I don't have any reason to buy used.

I disagree on DLC, it has definitely been abused, but it has also been used with great success to add to or modify great games that are worth going back to.



Will never happen. There's far too much to lose.


Never happen? As in there will always be some physical format even if it is a tiny niche market? Sure I'll go with that, but there will come a time in the not too distant future when physical media for consoles is akin to the vinyl of the music industry.

It will be similar to cd sales, pysical cd sales have been on the decline for years, downloadable music now accounts for 57% of all music sold. Will cd's still be around, sure, but they won't be the dominant format anymore.

http://techcrunch.co...w-sales-record/

PC games have already gone this way, and they are now cheaper than ever. I don't care if I get to resell my $5 steam game.

I would buy it, if Sony offers crazy sales like steam and continue with PS+.

There is a problem with that assumption. Once you buy a playstation system you are in a closed market unlike the PC. Steam has a lot of competition for your money, and there are a lot of big players getting in to compete in that space. Amazon has been beating Steam at their own game lately in terms of sales. Sony and Microsoft don't have the same incentive to push price like the online PC stores.

There are other closed platforms like iOS that see cheap prices, but there is such a small barrier to entry for developers and such a large amount of content, and with such an open and flexible market that prices don't have the rigidity that they do on traditional consoles.

#43 62t

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 04:44 AM

On a related note

http://kotaku.com/59...-stock-tumbling

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#44 Josh5890

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 04:48 AM

http://www.techradar...console-1086535

Nintendo has pretty much said let the used game market live on. I will support Nintendo like always but if the other next gen consoles ban used games, Nintendo will be all I support, with a sprinkle of PC.




And if the day ever comes where the industry goes all digital, (I highly doubt it), I won't cry. I have a backlog that will keep me happy until I die.

#45 Vinny

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 05:15 AM

Just because a company patents a type of technology, doesn't mean they'll use it. If they do, however, they can kiss my business goodbye.

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#46 Kazaganthi

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 05:35 AM

It'll have to be similar to the iTunes Store. It tracks what games you've purchased and you're allowed a number of downloads or have a finite number of machines on which you can place the software. This stuff is already occurring with the PSP, iOS products, the Vita, and the PS3. It's not a stretch to see this next gen IMO.


I'm talking physical game library of 20-30 games, they'll give you a free digital download of all your 30 games on your new console? I doubt that. Also, what if the console never even went online?

The same thing that happens when your PS3 or Xbox 360 break? You should be able to transfer everything to a new system.


The point is the console is BROKEN, how can you transfer from a broken system, it's broke. If a PS3/Xbox breaks, you take the game disc and put it in a new console, wow it works. I don't know what you are getting at, this whole thing is saying that WON'T work next gen. Your only option is official repair (hello even bigger markup maybe $200 for repair) and hope it comes back with the same # as your games.

I have nothing against a non-used game market, but it just doesn't seem viable for home console. You can install Steam on to multiple computers and download any/all your games at any time. That works for PSN/XBLA games, but not for physical games.

Gamestop already sells digital versions of games, DLC, Season Passes, some PSN/XBLA games, etc. But those prices never change or go on sale really. Or just try looking up old DLC on XBLA/PSN, it's full price for years.


#47 62t

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 05:42 AM

I'm talking physical game library of 20-30 games, they'll give you a free digital download of all your 30 games on your new console? I doubt that. Also, what if the console never even went online?



The point is the console is BROKEN, how can you transfer from a broken system, it's broke. If a PS3/Xbox breaks, you take the game disc and put it in a new console, wow it works. I don't know what you are getting at, this whole thing is saying that WON'T work next gen. Your only option is official repair (hello even bigger markup maybe $200 for repair) and hope it comes back with the same # as your games.

I have nothing against a non-used game market, but it just doesn't seem viable for home console. You can install Steam on to multiple computers and download any/all your games at any time. That works for PSN/XBLA games, but not for physical games.

Gamestop already sells digital versions of games, DLC, Season Passes, some PSN/XBLA games, etc. But those prices never change or go on sale really. Or just try looking up old DLC on XBLA/PSN, it's full price for years.

When your PS3 or Xbox 360 break or when you get a new system, your transfer your profile to the new system and redownload everything you purchase, even if they been removed from the online store. We don't know what the new system will be like but I don't see it being very different.

As for sales, there is XBLA and PSN sales every month. Occasionally you even get a free game or two.

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#48 Kylearan

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 05:47 AM

If this gets implemented, it'll be the quickest way for me to curb my game-spending budget.

That, or just waiting for Black Friday sales.

#49 district_9000

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 05:58 AM

I would hope no company in any medium would attempt this. I can easily see it being a kiss of death for them.

Personally I rarely buy used games, probably one out of +10 games this year. I would rather see money go to the developer rather than the reseller but I could not back this idea.

#50 Salamando3000

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 06:15 AM

I'm talking physical game library of 20-30 games, they'll give you a free digital download of all your 30 games on your new console? I doubt that. Also, what if the console never even went online?


Brainstorming here - allow the tags space for two names...a PSN name, and a console name. Have the console name something you set when you first setup the machine. When you put a disc in, it writes the console name to the tag. If you've taken the console online, it also writes the PSN name. If you haven't, it doesn't.

Whenever you load a disc into your machine, it'll first check the PSN name (since there's a guarantee of uniqueness there). If the tag doesn't have one, it then goes to the console name. Should your console break, as long as you remember your console name, you won't have a problem.

Such a simple solution has an obvious fallback here. Group of people, all use the same console name and never take 'em online...they'd be able to trade games back and forth at will. It'd still be too hard to guarantee games would work across Ebay or Gamestop, so it'd solve the "used games problem" fairly decently.


#51 Sarang01

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 11:20 AM

I disagree on DLC, it has definitely been abused, but it has also been used with great success to add to or modify great games that are worth going back to.

Never happen? As in there will always be some physical format even if it is a tiny niche market? Sure I'll go with that, but there will come a time in the not too distant future when physical media for consoles is akin to the vinyl of the music industry.

It will be similar to cd sales, pysical cd sales have been on the decline for years, downloadable music now accounts for 57% of all music sold. Will cd's still be around, sure, but they won't be the dominant format anymore.

http://techcrunch.co...w-sales-record/

PC games have already gone this way, and they are now cheaper than ever. I don't care if I get to resell my $5 steam game.

There is a problem with that assumption. Once you buy a playstation system you are in a closed market unlike the PC. Steam has a lot of competition for your money, and there are a lot of big players getting in to compete in that space. Amazon has been beating Steam at their own game lately in terms of sales. Sony and Microsoft don't have the same incentive to push price like the online PC stores.

There are other closed platforms like iOS that see cheap prices, but there is such a small barrier to entry for developers and such a large amount of content, and with such an open and flexible market that prices don't have the rigidity that they do on traditional consoles.


A few comments here. DLC has cheapened the value of some full release games, Bethesda and a few others have been the exception. This being said some big names, COUGHCapcomCOUGH, have seen fit to gouge people with bullshit unlocks. There are also games out there I'm sure you feel that the developer held back some content on just to squeeze extra money out of you with unlocks(Mafia 2) or that just plain feel unfinished or halfassed.

Be honest, how many of you feel you got fuller games in terms of value last generation, before DLC became standard.
I wouldn't bitch so much if the aforementioned crap I'm complaining about only came from 10% or less of these companies but most of the time it seems like 90% or more with Bioware, Bethesda and a few others being the exceptions.
As for CD market dying arguably it's a lot of the music industries fault. Most CD's are PCM stereo, i.e. Lossless stereo. This was great like 15 years ago. The Napster debacle could have been prevented accordingly by......wait for it, wait for it, transitioning the medium of music onto DVD's. Standardizing the music players into playing DVD's standard as well as CD's would've done the Music Industry a world of good. I mean, having high quality multichannel audio for play on those players would've made the downloads for newer stuff a bit of a bandwidth hurdle. Not to say there wouldn't have been widespread adoption of MP3's and all but a necessary bandwidth hurdle would have been put in place.
Though I know it's not fully on point but the movie theaters always came up with something new to make sure peoples television sets wouldn't end up cannibalizing viewership in theaters. After the television came out directors started shooting in 16:9 or 2.35:1.

As for Steam I'd rather pay more for Lucasarts games on GOG.com instead of downloading something that says something to the equivalent of "Go Fuck yourself" in terms of having a license since I bought it.
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#52 DNukem170

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:58 PM

Another thing to consider is marketing. MP3 players (and legal downloads) and smartphones would not be as widespread as they are if not for Apple's marketing department. Sony's marketing department isn't on that level.

#53 Broken Cage

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 01:28 PM

Quite frankly, I'm ok with this.
I'd rather the money end up in developer's hands than in Gamestop's coffers, who provide no content of their own.
I wouldn't be surprised if this was something devs have been asking for behind the scenes.


It's going to end up in the publisher's hands. The developers will be laid off.

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#54 Serpentor

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 02:49 PM

Just because a company patents a type of technology, doesn't mean they'll use it. If they do, however, they can kiss my business goodbye.

That's my impression as well... If Sony patent this then other companies can't capitalize on this idea, so in a way, it's good for gaming. Hey, think positive people! Besides, I have enough games to last me for a life time if the patent does put to work.

#55 blindinglights

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 03:04 PM

I wonder how long it'll take hackers to either find a way to replace RF tags or to find a way to record the "unused" state of a tag and use that to rewrite the tag when they want to sell it.



They will probably just hack the console to circumvent the check in the first place.
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#56 Javery

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 03:08 PM

I don't see why. As long as we have physical media, the console that doesn't ban used games will have a serious competitive advantage. I have to think that Xbox720 would take advantage to bury PS4.

Once we have all digital downloads then yes you're correct.


So it will happen eventually? ;)

I agree that right now it would be foolish for one console manufacturer to go this route but it wouldn't be all that crazy to me if game developers and publishers formed some sort of union where they all agreed to go along with this. So what if GameStop goes out of business? Places like Walmart and Target who have no interest in the used game business would still carry the consoles... and we would all still buy them and then bitch about it.

I think it is nuts because there are a ton of games that I never would have played if I didn't get it used due to the $60 price tag on new games. A "no used game" policy could work but NEW games would have to be $20 out of the gate.

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#57 camoor

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 03:52 PM

So it will happen eventually? ;)

I agree that right now it would be foolish for one console manufacturer to go this route but it wouldn't be all that crazy to me if game developers and publishers formed some sort of union where they all agreed to go along with this. So what if GameStop goes out of business? Places like Walmart and Target who have no interest in the used game business would still carry the consoles... and we would all still buy them and then bitch about it.

I think it is nuts because there are a ton of games that I never would have played if I didn't get it used due to the $60 price tag on new games. A "no used game" policy could work but NEW games would have to be $20 out of the gate.


Eventually eventually :D

And agreed.

Javery - I think that's the saddest thing about this, I get a certain joy out of trading games on the web, swapping one piece of fun software for another.

I don't see any scenario happening where new games are $20 out of the gate, but a slick digital download delivery service ala steam wouldn't be the end of the world for me.

If it was easily navigable, didn't require DLC codes, and they had good sales it might even be a plus - nothing like buying a game and getting almost instant gratification, plus not having to swap discs in and out would be pretty cool.

#58 Javery

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 04:11 PM

Eventually eventually :D

And agreed.

Javery - I think that's the saddest thing about this, I get a certain joy out of trading games on the web, swapping one piece of fun software for another.

I don't see any scenario happening where new games are $20 out of the gate, but a slick digital download delivery service ala steam wouldn't be the end of the world for me.

If it was easily navigable, didn't require DLC codes, and they had good sales it might even be a plus - nothing like buying a game and getting almost instant gratification, plus not having to swap discs in and out would be pretty cool.


I pretty much begrudgingly agree with all of this. I'm not sure I want it and I LOVE trading games with friends but it wouldn't be the end of the world if the delivery method was slick and the prices were FAIR (with lots of sales).

I do hate scrolling through my XBLA games and seeing ones I've finished that I'll never play again just sitting there with me unable to get anything for them in order to fund the next one.

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#59 joeboosauce

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 04:32 PM

What if you buy a second console? As in to have in another room or to replace a broken one? I got YLOD on my PS3. Do I have to rebuy my entire collection?!?!??? I've bought all the Sony consoles except Vita. IF they do this (I doubt the next-gen) then bye bye Sony...
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#60 DNukem170

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 04:58 PM

So what if GameStop goes out of business? Places like Walmart and Target who have no interest in the used game business would still carry the consoles... and we would all still buy them and then bitch about it

Both Best Buy and Target sell used games as well. Their selection isn't anywhere near GameStop, but they are there.