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#31 UncleBob

UncleBob

Posted 15 January 2013 - 07:16 PM

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100016697


Yes, CNBC is known for its Libertarian talking points and being a Libertarian blog.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy, instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it."

#32 mrsilkunderwear

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 07:17 PM

That's the *only* thing you've actually done on this site thus far, to be honest. Ape tired Libertarian talking points and blogs.

Now that I've seen what kind of internet sources you use as "support," perhaps you should stick to the rhetoric after all.


Actually I have been backing up all my words, you on the other hand quoted me with some article while poking fun of the free market. That is why I pointed you to Texas' surplus along with other information.

And I am sorry that you do not like my internet sources, I will try to use Yahoo since it is such a beacon of knowledge of all things finance.

#33 mykevermin

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 08:01 PM

I don't like your sources because it's libertarian thinktank horseshit. The Mises institute? Womp womp. You cited Ron Paul, big whoop. Ron Paul thinks the Fed and CRA are responsible for the housing bubble; Ron Paul thinks the Fed is also responsible for Enron. Seriously. He's a conviction (government bad) who engages in selective memory, cognitive dissonance, and absurd revisionism to support his viewpoint.

Anyone who blames the government for Enron has zero credibility. Well, unless you're an acolyte of his, in which case the more evidence there is against his inane worldview, the greater the evidence that there's a conspiracy to silence his brilliance. derp.
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#34 mrsilkunderwear

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 08:20 PM

I don't like your sources because it's libertarian thinktank horseshit. The Mises institute? Womp womp. You cited Ron Paul, big whoop. Ron Paul thinks the Fed and CRA are responsible for the housing bubble; Ron Paul thinks the Fed is also responsible for Enron. Seriously. He's a conviction (government bad) who engages in selective memory, cognitive dissonance, and absurd revisionism to support his viewpoint.

Anyone who blames the government for Enron has zero credibility. Well, unless you're an acolyte of his, in which case the more evidence there is against his inane worldview, the greater the evidence that there's a conspiracy to silence his brilliance. derp.


It is unfortunate you resort to act like a child when I am trying to have a good, honest debate with you. I wish you would try and look at things from my perspective and not dismiss them outright. Hopefully other people on these forums will read the material I posted and analyze it.

#35 Clak

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 09:08 PM

Where in the world did you get this whackadoo theory? CDOs, shameful (corrupt) ratings agencies, an addiction to ARMs for banks far beyond the purview of the Community Reinvestment Act - that led to the bubble and its explosion.



Let me guess; we're fifteen borrowed dollars away from HYPERINFLATION AND OMG THE CRASHING DOLLAR AND OMG MILK IS SIX HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS A GALLON AND OMG THE UNITED STATES IS THE NEW WEIMAR REPUBLIC.

Right? Is that what you think? Based on what empirical standards are we going down the same path as Germany? Can you find a single economist who thinks we're the next Germany?

(p.s., Good luck.)



Copper has increased in value as well, but that's due to its use as a metal more than it is fears of a crashing currency. Correlation is not causation - and in any event, self-fulfilling prophecies and all that would indicate that it only takes a small pool of crackpots to drive up the price of a commodity like precious metals. This isn't "smart people getting out of the dollar while the getting is good," this is "crazed loons have become the tail wagging the dog."

You want proof? go hang out near a coin dealer at a flea market. Everybody who walks by is an armchair economist ranting about inflation and how a silver quarter stills buys a gallon of gasoline (no, it doesn't).

I actually had some silver too, sold it when these loons started driving the price up like a rocket. Thanks loons! Now if only I had invested in gun manufacturer stocks.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that. -George Carlin

“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” -Mark Twain

“When a great genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign; that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -Jonathon Swift

#36 Clak

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 09:11 PM

Lew Rockwell and Ron Paul are economists? Derrrrrrrp. Fuck almighty.



1. Stupid question, ridiculous premise. Let me answer it this way - anyone who believes that a market can be truly independent of government involvement either (a) doesn't understand the first fucking thing about economics or (b) is an anarchist. If you use the US dollar in your transaction and typically refrain from bartering, there is a remarkable likelihood that you are an (a) and not (b).
2. Check the CPI. Printing money doesn't effect prices. You are clearly in category (a) above.
3. "Why did the price has increased?" Sweet grammar, guy. Are you a trust fund Archbishop Moeller grad? At any rate, I'm not sure why it has done up. Demand? Beats me, I don't invest in it.

Let me ask you: "Why did the price of AAPL has increased so much in the last 10-15 years?" Since you are fishing for a desired result in the final question, should we glean that any commodity/security whose price has increased since 1998 is a potential candidate for replacing the dollar as the currency of choice in the modern world? Should we then think that people are buying AAPL stock certificates expecting them to replace the dollar? No? Why would we expect that gold is different? Because its price as a commodity went up? Talk about a conclusion in search of evidence. Jesus, kid. Back to the drawing board with you.

I can answer why the price of gold and silver have gone up, folks like him, that's why. That and Glen Beck shilling like no tomorrow, that helped too. Once the economy really picks up and things return to a fairly normal state, the prices will both come back down. Now is a great time to sell though, I actually wish people like him would get even more paranoid and really ratchet the price up to around $50 per ounce of silver like it was for a bit.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that. -George Carlin

“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” -Mark Twain

“When a great genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign; that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -Jonathon Swift

#37 mrsilkunderwear

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 09:27 PM

You want proof? go hang out near a coin dealer at a flea market. Everybody who walks by is an armchair economist ranting about inflation and how a silver quarter stills buys a gallon of gasoline (no, it doesn't).

I actually had some silver too, sold it when these loons started driving the price up like a rocket. Thanks loons! Now if only I had invested in gun manufacturer stocks.


http://www.coinflati...rter-Value.html
Current value= $5.67
Average price of gasoline in US= $3.303

#38 mrsilkunderwear

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 09:34 PM

I can answer why the price of gold and silver have gone up, folks like him, that's why. That and Glen Beck shilling like no tomorrow, that helped too. Once the economy really picks up and things return to a fairly normal state, the prices will both come back down. Now is a great time to sell though, I actually wish people like him would get even more paranoid and really ratchet the price up to around $50 per ounce of silver like it was for a bit.


And when will the economy go back up? After Quantitative Easing 7? After the invasion of Iran? Price of gold has been holding and increasing way before the economic crisis. You call me paranoid but I am being a realist. My grandfather lost most of his wealth when USSR collapsed and those people did not think something like that could happen either. I don't know about you but I am pretty sure all those gold buyers are laughing their butts off all the way to the "bank".

Also please do not associate me with a tool like Glenn Beck.

#39 mykevermin

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 09:36 PM

^Can we associate you with another tool, Alex Jones?

How long have you been singing the song of hyperinflation?

I.e., how long ago did you begin thinking that we're going to be the next Germany?
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#40 mrsilkunderwear

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 09:52 PM

^Can we associate you with another tool, Alex Jones?

How long have you been singing the song of hyperinflation?

I.e., how long ago did you begin thinking that we're going to be the next Germany?


I prefer Ron Paul but I guess I could settle for Alex Jones. He at least believes in what he says (yells?). I am staying optimistic in regards to not seeing hyperinflation in this country but so far the government is making all the wrong moves. Do you remember what Germany did in order to pay for the war debt?

Are you supporting Obama in his economic policies?

#41 mykevermin

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 09:57 PM

How long. When did you start humming this particular tune? Don't backtrack - you linked to it, you're arguing for it, you're crying the "we're printing money and going to turn into Germany" song. You either believe it or you don't. Pick one.

Do I have to draw a goddamned map for you to understand the question?
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#42 mrsilkunderwear

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 10:21 PM

How long. When did you start humming this particular tune? Don't backtrack - you linked to it, you're arguing for it, you're crying the "we're printing money and going to turn into Germany" song. You either believe it or you don't. Pick one.

Do I have to draw a goddamned map for you to understand the question?


I suggest you start drawing that map because I never said we will become Germany. I mentioned them because they have completely devalued their currency, a point I hope we will never reach here.

Let me try to use an example you will comprehend. Starcraft 2 had a limited edition which were mostly sold out prior to launch. After the release the price plunged because hoarders flooded the market with all the extra copies they did not want. Today, there is still demand but less copies therefore you have to pay a premium to get one.

Now you tell me if you honestly believe that excess printing was not one of the reasons for Germany's economic hardship.

#43 mykevermin

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 10:31 PM

I never said we will become Germany.


What you said:

Yeah, except the right amount is no more. FED printed too much money which were given to the banks to loan out to people. This resulted in artificial low interest rates that led to the housing crisis. The government's solution? Print more money! Billions were again given to the banks to cover bonuses and private airplanes. Before calling those people crackpots I suggest you do more research. Gold and silver have increased in value exponentially over the last few decades. I myself have invested, not to profit but keep my money safe and secure. Remember Germany when they printed too much after the war?


So you're going to hedge here and say you didn't "say" outright that we're going to become Germany, and expect to be taken seriously? You're using the worst of semantics to backtrack on the lynchpin of your *entire* economic argument.

So, seriously, read the above quote of yours and tell me, please tell me, that you still aren't saying we're going to become Germany. Because if you still try to backtrack, off to the ignore list you go. Where you deserve to be with other horrible people who lack the dignity to say what they mean with conviction, and resort to the weakest, lamest, most pisspoor of semantic shifting to avoid ever actually having an opinion on something.

So, please, you're actually kind of a nuisance. Try telling me one more time that you never said or implied we're going to become Germany. Not Merkel's Germany, post-WWI Germany.
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#44 mrsilkunderwear

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 10:38 PM

What you said:



So you're going to hedge here and say you didn't "say" outright that we're going to become Germany, and expect to be taken seriously? You're using the worst of semantics to backtrack on the lynchpin of your *entire* economic argument.

So, seriously, read the above quote of yours and tell me, please tell me, that you still aren't saying we're going to become Germany. Because if you still try to backtrack, off to the ignore list you go. Where you deserve to be with other horrible people who lack the dignity to say what they mean with conviction, and resort to the weakest, lamest, most pisspoor of semantic shifting to avoid ever actually having an opinion on something.

So, please, you're actually kind of a nuisance. Try telling me one more time that you never said or implied we're going to become Germany. Not Merkel's Germany, post-WWI Germany.

Put me on that list if you must, obviously you lack the facts to backup anything you say. I implied there is a possibility but never said we will because I strongly believe in the people of USA. I believe the nonsense will stop after more citizens are aware of the damage this government is inflicting upon the country. It does not have be a majority of the population but a select few with a desire for a real change. Anyways if this is end for you and I then goodbye and hopefully one day you will open your eyes like I have.

#45 Msut77

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 11:07 PM

I can guarantee this clown has zero knowledge of post or pre war germany or the weimar republic.
wahhhhh noone helped me so they must not help anyone. - knoell

#46 mrsilkunderwear

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 11:42 PM

I can guarantee this clown has zero knowledge of post or pre war germany or the weimar republic.

Enlighten this clown on the economic policies of Weimar republic.

#47 Msut77

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 12:06 AM

Enlighten this clown on the economic policies of Weimar republic.


Be more specific please, you make references to it in the present tense. What exactly do you think makes it so relevant?
wahhhhh noone helped me so they must not help anyone. - knoell

#48 irideabike

irideabike

Posted 16 January 2013 - 12:52 AM

Didn't you just bring it up msut?

#49 mrsilkunderwear

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 12:59 AM

Be more specific please, you make references to it in the present tense. What exactly do you think makes it so relevant?


I mentioned them because they printed a lot of money during the 1920s in one of the earlier posts. So tell me what you know about that.

#50 ID2006

ID2006

    "Klaymen, up here!"

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 01:14 AM

Once the economy starts to recover, the government will then need to worry about inflation. I believe selling off its debt to reclaim dollars is a method they'd presumedly use to prevent it. At this exact moment, though, it isn't an issue, from what I've heard and read.

#51 Dr Mario Kart

Dr Mario Kart

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 01:18 AM

After over 4 decades of being wrong about hyperinflation, you cant really blame people if they stop listening to the people crying it.

Printing didnt have anything to do with Germany's economic hardship, if you want to get technical. Now using it to pay reparations, thats another story. Germany was also dumping their own currency to buy foreign currencies, which we wouldnt be doing either. As soon the US credit rating was lowered the last time, people FLOODED into bonds. That is to say, as soon as our bonds were declared less reliable, people flocked to them. We're currently borrowing at negative rates, and paying out is not particular problematic. Just about nothing from Germany applies or could even apply. Same goes for Greece. Greece is not in control of their currency. There are no scenarios where we can become Greece.

The Coin isnt necessary to ignore the debt ceiling. The administration could just go, '14th amendment bitches, sue me" and continue paying the bills. They can let 5 conservative Supreme Court Justices force a default if they want, but even Roberts has more sense than to do that.

#52 mykevermin

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 01:59 AM

^ Someone read "Lords of Finance," perhaps?
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#53 Msut77

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 03:00 AM

I mentioned them because they printed a lot of money during the 1920s in one of the earlier posts. So tell me what you know about that.


That was 1/100th of it. As dr. kart pointed even aside from the fact they were a broken country they had to pay in specie and purchase other currency. It is not the parallel you wish it to be.
wahhhhh noone helped me so they must not help anyone. - knoell

#54 Clak

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 03:07 AM

He thinks it applies because he sees "some people" as socialists (ie Nazis in his mind). So we're printing money, inflation is going to be a problem, then those evil leftists swing in and the next thing you know, we're all goose stepping down the street.

That about right?
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that. -George Carlin

“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” -Mark Twain

“When a great genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign; that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -Jonathon Swift

#55 mrsilkunderwear

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 07:10 AM

That was 1/100th of it. As dr. kart pointed even aside from the fact they were a broken country they had to pay in specie and purchase other currency. It is not the parallel you wish it to be.


I disagree. Excessive printing alone was not the sole reason for economic failure but it was a major part for it.
http://www.spiegel.d...on-a-641758.htm

Clak, please stop talking out of your ass. The past two days I have been in this section of the forum, you brought absolutely nothing to the table but insults. Pick up a book man and educate yourself.

#56 Msut77

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 11:17 AM

I disagree. Excessive printing alone was not the sole reason for economic failure but it was a major part for it.


It is not even close to the same thing, it was a symptom not a cause. Also the context is different to put it mildly.

Also, posting a link you didnt read that didnt work obviously isn't a great way to establish your bonafides.


I have an idea, find me a stable industrialized country that went through true hyperinflation. You people always point to something that happened when my grandfather was in elementary school or Zimbabwe.
wahhhhh noone helped me so they must not help anyone. - knoell

#57 mrsilkunderwear

mrsilkunderwear

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 04:09 PM

It is not even close to the same thing, it was a symptom not a cause. Also the context is different to put it mildly.

Also, posting a link you didnt read that didnt work obviously isn't a great way to establish your bonafides.


I have an idea, find me a stable industrialized country that went through true hyperinflation. You people always point to something that happened when my grandfather was in elementary school or Zimbabwe.

Hmm k

"There is a point at which printing money affects purchasing power by causing inflation," warned socialist Eduard Bernstein in 1918. But his words and those of others went unheeded. The mountain of bank notes continued to grow, while the volume of goods gradually declined.

It was a classic constellation. Too much money and too few goods could lead to only one thing: Inflation.



#58 Msut77

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 11:20 PM

Hmm k


Try harder.
wahhhhh noone helped me so they must not help anyone. - knoell

#59 cancerman1120

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 03:23 PM

So this Doug Casey is pretty intelligent guy who has been pretty successful in finance. He seems like a Libertarians wet dream though. He is calling for the US to default on our debt. Honestly I am not versed in economics one bit so maybe the long term results would be alright but in the short term it seems like a default would be horrible. His talk of punishing the government also makes me question his bias on the matter. Link has an article and a short video interview.

Edit: Anyone know why he would include 18 trillion in FDIC guarantees in the debt? Are they really that many banks failing that result in this much coverage by the government? Or is this just theoretical debt?

http://finance.yahoo...-124119100.html

#60 mykevermin

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 06:16 PM

His default assumption seems predicated on the idea that our unfunded liabilities are vastly underestimated (or we're being lied to about their size). He thinks they're around $86 Trillion - which, yeah, okay, that's way beyond the debt ceiling.

What's clear is that he's taking medicare and social security liabilities into account - what's NOT clear is (a) how far into the future he's looking in order to get that $86T estimate, or (b) what methods he's using to assess the size of the liabilities in future years.

In other words, we can estimate what our outlays for social security in 2030 are going to look like today, but are they accurate, are they based on worst-case scenarios in terms of inflation, revenue, GDP, employment, population growth? Are they based on best-case scenarios? And so on - and, more to the point, based on how close we can accurately assess those future potential deficits (because they are potential deficits, they aren't real until they occur), should we actually implement policy today? If there's a confidence interval for that $86T of, say, $150T, well, maybe we shouldn't implement any policy today.

Here's the odd thing about right-wing policy; the same people who fervently deny the overwhelming scientific evidence of climate change (that our actions today will have aggregated, substantially detrimental and irreversible effects in the decades to come) seem to be the same people who apply the absolute *inverse* of this logic to fuzzy estimates of future financial outlays in those same decades to come. In short, it doesn't matter if we're irreversibly fucking the climate up, but we better do something today to sure that we don't overspend in 30 years.

What should we do today? Let's raise the social security age!
Why? So we don't have to cut social security benefits in the future!

:joystick:
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