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PlayStation 4 Thread


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#721 TooPoor

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 06:16 PM

How is that an entitled request? If they (Sony, M$ etc) expect us to invest in digital content (PSN/XBLA games) then they should not require us to rebuy the "same" content on next gen consoles. Just to be clear I'm not talking about PS3 digital games. I'm strictly talking about PSN/XBLA titles. Also, I am fully aware of PS3's architectural shortcomings hence why I never thought that BC was possible for PS3 games. However, I figured that Sony would transfer the PSN content we purchased to the PS4.

I said reasonable and entitled at the same time.

Allow me to make a comparison: many large scale softwares from, say Mentor Graphics and Cadence are not backwards compatible, and these cost me thousands of dollars for a license. If you upgrade from the XP to Win8, they will not port the software to Win8.

It is reasonable from your (and my) perspective, and I also want them to give me free PS4 titles if I already bought them on the PS3.

It is entitled because "transferring" PSN titles is THE SAME as supporting BC, it takes effort on their part, especially for the current generation leap. From a programmer's perspective, it amounts to coding a indie game and giving it to you for free.

Even if this is true...it still doesn't mean it's not a poor business model. Your customers aren't going to give a crap about the technological limitations. What they're going to see is that they just bought the same game (maybe even months before), and have no reason to buy it again. This is basically the reason people have been slow to move from DVD to Blu-Ray...and why the WiiU hasn't been selling as well as the Wii. People are happy with what they've got. Trying to convince them that the same products are better just because they're on a new format isn't going to drive sales.

You could make the argument that it's unreasonable to expect previous console purchases to carry forward (ie. Nintendo games weren't playable on Super Nintendo), but I'd also make the argument that people invested A LOT more money this past generation than in any generation prior. So, if those purchases aren't supported by the next system, what that IS going to cause is for people to be much slower in moving on (especially when you're talking about digital content that has no resale value). Finding a way to support these purchases would be a great way for Sony/Microsoft to guide people toward their new systems. If they can't do that, they better be happy sitting on their hands while people are slow to adopt these new consoles.

Sony and MS have large marketing analysis teams, and they balanced the following:
(1) Support BC, satisfy the hardcore gamers, and in the process raising the cost of the system in the next console war, loosing new comers.
(2) Drop BC, piss off hardcore PS3 fans, abandon some of them, and focus on the new comers, lure them into PS4 with a reasonable price.
They chose the latter. Am I pissed? Yes I am. But I knew this would happen. They think their model is more profitable, while you think yours is. Nobody knows at this point.

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#722 Indiana

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 06:19 PM

I agree the digital content is an issue as well as the game patches and updates. I'd like to see a statement from Sony and Microsoft that their online services are going to remain around for 5, 10, or 20 years for the PS3 and Xbox 360. I do not feel like you must provide backwards compatibility but I do feel like that $300 on digital downloads should be available for a long long time for redownloading.

#723 Indiana

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 06:21 PM

I said reasonable and entitled at the same time.

Allow me to make a comparison: many large scale softwares from, say Mentor Graphics and Cadence are not backwards compatible, and these cost me thousands of dollars for a license. If you upgrade from the XP to Win8, they will not port the software to Win8.

It is reasonable from your (and my) perspective, and I also want them to give me free PS4 titles if I already bought them on the PS3.

It is entitled because "transferring" PSN titles is THE SAME as supporting BC, it takes effort on their part, especially for the current generation leap. From a programmer's perspective, it amounts to coding a indie game and giving it to you for free.


Sony and MS have large marketing analysis teams, and they balanced the following:
(1) Support BC, satisfy the hardcore gamers, and in the process raising the cost of the system in the next console war, loosing new comers.
(2) Drop BC, piss off hardcore PS3 fans, abandon some of them, and focus on the new comers, lure them into PS4 with a reasonable price.
They chose the latter. Am I pissed? Yes I am. But I knew this would happen. They think their model is more profitable, while you think yours is. Nobody knows at this point.


Option 2 is more profitable. You get more gamers at the lower price. The hardcore fans while pissed will still buy the system because of the lower cost.

#724 ShockandAww

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 06:27 PM

There's no price cut coming for the Vita in N America. I don't have much to say about it other than I'm glad I sold mine (yet again). I won't be buying another.

To clarify the above: The point of me saying that I don't regret selling my Vita was because I feel that without a price drop others won't buy the Vita. If others don't buy the Vita we're never going to get more games for it, which sucks. No future games = me not regretting selling my Vita and leaves me with no intention of buying another.

Edited by ShockandAww, 21 February 2013 - 07:42 PM.


#725 TooPoor

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 06:29 PM

Option 2 is more profitable. You get more gamers at the lower price. The hardcore fans while pissed will still buy the system because of the lower cost.

That's what I kept saying. I'm sorry to say this but we hardcore PS1/2/3 fans are group of old people with much less sway than we think we posses. The market is in the younger fans, who are willing to mindlessly shell out money for the newest games and systems. What do they care, it's the parents that's paying anyways. And when you get to the age when you have kids, they will demand the PS4, they will demand you buy the game that all his/her friends are talking about. So it's a win-win situation for Sony.

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#726 n8rockerasu

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 06:30 PM

I said reasonable and entitled at the same time.

Allow me to make a comparison: many large scale softwares from, say Mentor Graphics and Cadence are not backwards compatible, and these cost me thousands of dollars for a license. If you upgrade from the XP to Win8, they will not port the software to Win8.

It is reasonable from your (and my) perspective, and I also want them to give me free PS4 titles if I already bought them on the PS3.

It is entitled because "transferring" PSN titles is THE SAME as supporting BC, it takes effort on their part, especially for the current generation leap. From a programmer's perspective, it amounts to coding a indie game and giving it to you for free.


I made this point in the XBLA thread, but I totally see where you're coming from...as it's definitely tangible work that needs to be done. But if that work is going to be done anyway (to sell the game on the new system), then Sony/MS just needs to take it on the chin for people who bought the game the previous generation. It's a show of good will and customer appreciation, and makes people feel better about future purchases. It also shows new customers that the company will back them up and they can feel good about their investment. So, while it may cost them money...the long-term effects should drastically outweigh that.

Sony and MS have large marketing analysis teams, and they balanced the following:
(1) Support BC, satisfy the hardcore gamers, and in the process raising the cost of the system in the next console war, loosing new comers.
(2) Drop BC, piss off hardcore PS3 fans, abandon some of them, and focus on the new comers, lure them into PS4 with a reasonable price.
They chose the latter. Am I pissed? Yes I am. But I knew this would happen. They think their model is more profitable, while you think yours is. Nobody knows at this point.


That's a fair assessment. I just can't help but view it as anything but incredibly foolish. Yes, they have large marketing analysis teams...who make colossal mistakes and waste millions of dollars all the time. The notion that they could be overestimating the demand for a new system that alienates a portion of their install base is not that preposterous. But yeah...we'll see.

#727 kill3r7

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 06:30 PM

I said reasonable and entitled at the same time.

Allow me to make a comparison: many large scale softwares from, say Mentor Graphics and Cadence are not backwards compatible, and these cost me thousands of dollars for a license. If you upgrade from the XP to Win8, they will not port the software to Win8.

It is reasonable from your (and my) perspective, and I also want them to give me free PS4 titles if I already bought them on the PS3.

It is entitled because "transferring" PSN titles is THE SAME as supporting BC, it takes effort on their part, especially for the current generation leap. From a programmer's perspective, it amounts to coding a indie game and giving it to you for free.


Fair enough however in your example you own a physical copy of the software or have access to a digital copy (in theory for "perpetuity"). The problem with PSN games is that once Sony/M$ decide to stop support for the PS3 and shut down the servers we are SOL. What happens a few years down the road when I need to redownload one of these PSN games? Will Sony/M$ continue to support these products? In other words will we have access to their product over the next 10 or 20 years.

I want to know this before I continue to buy PSN or Xbla games.
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#728 kill3r7

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 06:33 PM

There's no price cut coming for the Vita in N America. I don't have much to say about it other than I'm glad I sold mine (yet again). I won't be buying another.


I was tempted to pick one up from cowboom earlier this week but decided to hold off. E3 will play a huge role if Vita is to turn things around. Thus, I won't be buying one until then.
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#729 Indiana

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 06:43 PM

The real problem for Microsoft is what happens in 4-5 years when you can't get a 360 anymore and your console has a RROD :lol:. Sony might have this problem too, but I think it will be less of an issue.


Yes this problem scares me. I often wonder if I should run out and purchase a backup console when the prices drop to $99.

Currently I have a back log of games to play and as long as that continues it would be a shame to not have a working console to play them on.

#730 smartbombUK

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 06:47 PM

Friends playing the hard part for you is the dumbest feature. Maybe there will be gaming pros that you can pay! LOL

The PS3 is your last console? Why are you leaving the world of game consoles?


You can bet your ass this will produce a small number of 'pro-gamers' who will charge people to grind their XP or defeat certain bosses or whatnot. And you can also bet that there's fools out there who will pay them too.

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#731 pharmacrest

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 06:50 PM

I have no idea when or if I will buy a PS4. I still have a backlog of games for PS3 that I doubt I will be done with this year. We dont know what the Xbox will look like yet either. I may switch to that. I may not. I know that BC or not wont make my decision. I dont need to play 10 year old games everyday. I cant beleive most people do either. People just love to complain.

TooPoor, it is not all old people that want BC. I feel old at 33, and while I wouldnt mind reliving childhood every now and then with some classic games, I never actually play any games that are older than this generation. I dont have the time to go back and relive the past. Look to the future! LOL

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#732 Lord_Kefka

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 06:52 PM

Yes of course, i mean when i look forward to a console in 2013 i expect it to play and want to play games from a near 15 year old system never mind the fact that i could play those games on about 10 other platforms atm :roll:.


Hey there numb nuts, I'm not saying that I want that feature, just that saying it's a hardware compatibility issue is not logical. And if no one wanted to play those old games, would there really be so many of them in the PSN store? Jackass.

It's not about the power of the PS4, it's the architecture. The PS3 uses the CELL (IBM) + RSX (nVidia), while the PS4 will use an x86 AMD CPU + APU (ATI). Completely different architectures = VERY hard to support BC. Hence Gaikai :)


Now with that change over, I can understand. My comment leans more towards the business trend. Right from the start, different architectures or not, it makes more sense for them to sell the content again. The mortality rate of these systems has been an issue since the change to a disc based media. How many people here can pull a working Nintendo or Genesis from a closet somewhere? Some people were turning PS1's upside down to keep them running a year from launch. PS2 first runs had a very high death rate. The 360's are all ticking time bombs. So the argument of "well, pull out your old system" starts to degrade a bit as the hardware itself does.

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#733 Trakan

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 07:24 PM

Don't turn this into a console war and don't insult other users in this thread.

#734 The Furry Panda

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 07:47 PM

Hey there numb nuts, I'm not saying that I want that feature, just that saying it's a hardware compatibility issue is not logical. And if no one wanted to play those old games, would there really be so many of them in the PSN store? Jackass.



Now with that change over, I can understand. My comment leans more towards the business trend. Right from the start, different architectures or not, it makes more sense for them to sell the content again. The mortality rate of these systems has been an issue since the change to a disc based media. How many people here can pull a working Nintendo or Genesis from a closet somewhere? Some people were turning PS1's upside down to keep them running a year from launch. PS2 first runs had a very high death rate. The 360's are all ticking time bombs. So the argument of "well, pull out your old system" starts to degrade a bit as the hardware itself does.


This is true. My ps2 died just after ps3 launched. Took me tell this year to rebuy one. (Although when i bought my ps3 i was told it was backward compatible and it wasnt lol) thats my main fear going into ps4. Although im also aware its just the name of the game. Im more worried about digital content and how that will translate, once its in the cloud can i at least play the psn games i own already own in my download history?Will the gakai stuff let me put a ps3 game in my ps4, recognize i own it, and live stream it to me? Only time will tell. But, im sure id be willing to rebuy ps3 classics for 10 bucks a piece assuming they became playable on my vita as well. All questions that should be answered e3 up til launch. Sony just needs to get very specific on how the online integration and features and such work before the console launches (unlike the nightmare of the wii-u)

#735 Josh1billion

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 07:49 PM

I'm curious to see details regarding the future of PS+ on the PS4. I hope they continue the service as it is, with one $50/year subscription working on all of Sony's platforms-- PS3, Vita, and PS4.

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#736 Abear21

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 08:08 PM

I'm curious to see details regarding the future of PS+ on the PS4. I hope they continue the service as it is, with one $50/year subscription working on all of Sony's platforms-- PS3, Vita, and PS4.


Yeah and what about trophies? I think the smartest thing Sony can do is make the PS4 backwards compatible and seemless with PS+

If they do this I'll run out and buy one...but until I know GTA V will be available for the PS4 and whether or not PS+ will be included in some form I'm not really excited to run out and buy one.

I bought a PS3 day one and don't regret it, but with so many great games coming this year (Bioshock, The Last of US, GTA V) I'm leaning right now towards not getting it right away.

#737 Yars

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 08:22 PM

Yeah and what about trophies? I think the smartest thing Sony can do is make the PS4 backwards compatible and seemless with PS+

Assuming trophies are just stored in a database, it should be fairly easy for them to carry over your trophies to the PS4. The rumor is PS+ is going to be replaced by a new service called Playstation World.

#738 Richard Kain

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 08:36 PM

Wow, I'm really late to this discussion.

Quick summary of my impressions from this presentation:

Sony did a pretty good job with this one. I feel they've made a lot of smart decisions about the design of the PS4's hardware, and have chosen some solid level-headed people to guide the PS4's ultimate construction. The much greater attention to developer wants and needs is especially encouraging. The presentation itself was smooth and well-rehearsed. They showed enough to get developers and players excited about their new hardware platform, while still leaving out enough details to make for a meaty E3 press conference.

8/10

#739 ShockandAww

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 08:50 PM

Playstation 4 will not support the DualShock 3.

#740 MetalSlugger

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 08:53 PM

The real question: When will the great Chad Warden give us his impressions of DAT PEE ESS 'DUPLE



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#741 dmaul1114

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 09:15 PM

Ok, if you want to play PS3 games why the HELL are you buying a PS4? Shouldn't you just keep playing on your PS3? It's not like having a PS4 makes your PS3 magically disappear... So you'd rather pay for another PS3 inside of your PS4 just so you can play games you can already play?!


For me I have no more room on my TV stand, nor HDMI inputs on my receiver so I'd have to be rotating consoles around which is a big hassle.

Also, it's nice to be able to sell/trade old consoles to help offset the cost of the new one--of course that's moot if adding BC ups the cost more than you can sell the old console for.

Just playing devils advocate really though. I won't get a new console until I clear out my backlog of current gen games anyway, so BC is pretty much a moot point for me anymore. But some people would prefer to be able to trade/sell their PS3 and get a PS4 to play new games and still be able to play their old games, and it does kind of suck to not have that option.

#742 Crunchewy

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 09:42 PM

I would get a PS4 sooner rather than later if it had full BC for PS3 games. I only got a PS3 this past Xmas and have lots of games to play, especially with PS+. I do like the improvements they seem to have made with the PS4, so for that reason I would like it, but I'm also out of HDMI ports and room, and of course there is the cost, which could be offset a bit by trading/selling the PS3. Which I won't want to do because of the lack of BC. But, I suppose it's not that big of a deal. Probably I couldn't afford a PS4 even with selling the PS3: Sony is only "hoping" that they can sell it for less than $600. Ouch.

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#743 dmaul1114

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 09:47 PM

I would get a PS4 sooner rather than later if it had full BC for PS3 games. I only got a PS3 this past Xmas and have lots of games to play, especially with PS+. I do like the improvements they seem to have made with the PS4, so for that reason I would like it, but I'm also out of HDMI ports and room, and of course there is the cost, which could be offset a bit by trading/selling the PS3. Which I won't want to do because of the lack of BC. But, I suppose it's not that big of a deal. Probably I couldn't afford a PS4 even with selling the PS3: Sony is only "hoping" that they can sell it for less than $600. Ouch.


More or less the same here. I've had the PS3 longer (a little over a year), and haven't really used it that much (think I've only completed 3 games) so I've got a good 15-20 games across discs and PS+ freebies to get around to before even thinking about another console. And also have 4-5 things on 360 (which I've had for six years) to finish off/get around to.

With no BC, there's no chance of me getting a PS3 anytime soon. If MS has BC on the next X-box (and allows transfer of XBLA games), then I'm much more likely to pick that up sooner than later if there's something I really want to play right away like a new Gears game etc.

That's bad news for Sony in terms of getting my business and I'm 99% sure I'll only go with one console next gen as I was happier when I only had the 360 for most of this generation as I didn't feel so overwhelmed trying to keep up with games that interested me. I hate having a backlog as gaming starts to feel like a chore with just wanting to get through a game to move on to the next on the list, or to be ready for a must play game's release date etc.

#744 Woocls

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 09:49 PM

I would get a PS4 sooner rather than later if it had full BC for PS3 games. I only got a PS3 this past Xmas and have lots of games to play, especially with PS+. I do like the improvements they seem to have made with the PS4, so for that reason I would like it, but I'm also out of HDMI ports and room, and of course there is the cost, which could be offset a bit by trading/selling the PS3. Which I won't want to do because of the lack of BC. But, I suppose it's not that big of a deal. Probably I couldn't afford a PS4 even with selling the PS3: Sony is only "hoping" that they can sell it for less than $600. Ouch.

But the "offset" cost doesn't really work because they'd have to raise the cost of your PS4 to include a PS3 inside of it.

#745 Salamando3000

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 09:54 PM

I'm still hoping they'll use Gaikai to their advantage here. I put in a PS3 game in my PS4, and it allows me to play it through Gaikai free of charge (requiring the disc as a key of sorts).


#746 dmaul1114

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 10:03 PM

But the "offset" cost doesn't really work because they'd have to raise the cost of your PS4 to include a PS3 inside of it.


But the odds are that the added cost would be less than you could sell a PS3 for on Craigslist.

If not your point stands. But I'd still never have two generations of consoles from the same company hooked up as my home theater set up is already too crowded and out of HDMI ports etc.

From here on out I'll be one (if any) consoles so not being BC kills any chances of me ever buying another console at launch since I always lag behind as I don't have the time or interest to keep up with AAA games as they come out.

Thus companies miss out on me paying launch prices for consoles, $60 for new games as I'm lagging behind and buying systems and games after price drops. Where as if there's BC I'll get the new console sooner to play some big AAA game I'm dying to play while still finishing my last gen games, and thus they'd end up getting more money from me due to me buying the console sooner (fewer price drops before purchase) and buying more full price games due to having the system and picking up games at launch.

#747 Snake2715

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 10:06 PM

You can bet your ass this will produce a small number of 'pro-gamers' who will charge people to grind their XP or defeat certain bosses or whatnot. And you can also bet that there's fools out there who will pay them too.

Im 30 now and have a 1 year old lad. A feeling that Im too old for the next round of sitting up til 4am at weekends and the fits of gamer rage at something that is proving difficult combined with my lad now getting a sense of aventure and his surroundings and not just sleeping all the time has lead me to the decision to bow out. Has to come a time for everyone eventually, this is mine I feel.


Your avatar pic is giving the "are you serious" look...

Its somewhat happened to me as well, but I had been through that cycle before. Economy, and mainly too many other hobbies to keep getting excited for the new consoles. I have games on my laptop with Steam and a backlog of years. So I am set for a good couple years into the new life cycle at a bare minimum.
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#748 Jodou

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 10:08 PM

PSN purchases will not carry over to the PS4.

Not sure if this has been posted but this just adds salt to the no BC wound.

This is actually surprising news considering they just talked about how Gaikai will stream old games on PS4. Why wouldn't they allow PSN purchases to be accessed in that way? Doesn't affect me at all since I don't buy digital (now people might finally see why. . .) and admittedly I haven't used my PS3 to play any PS1/2 games even though I bought one that could.

That is a huge blow to the store business-wise because people might shop smarter knowing that purchases now won't be accessible on future hardware.

Friends playing the hard part for you is the dumbest feature. Maybe there will be gaming pros that you can pay! LOL

I fully expect a Geek Squad gaming division to offer this service lol. At least Sony is taking the initiative to make services like this more safe for gamers, instead of giving out your info.

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#749 thenexus6

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 10:12 PM

The real question: When will the great Chad Warden give us his impressions of DAT PEE ESS 'DUPLE



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Ha I forgot about this guy, they should get him to come up during their E3 conference.

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#750 dmaul1114

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 10:12 PM

Doesn't affect me at all since I don't buy digital (now people might finally see why. . .) ...


That concern never really bothered me as I almost never have a desire to replay a game. Games just don't have the replay value of movies, music etc. for me. Once I beat a game, I'm usually done with it for good.

So the only factor I weigh when it comes to buying a digital game is whether I think the price is worth the experience of playing it once.

Disc games are the same thought process, other than dusting price downward based on what I think I'll get back selling the game after beating it. So I'm willing to pay a bit more for disc games than download games since I can recoup the cost.