Jump to content



Photo
- - - - -

Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal


  • Please log in to reply
92 replies to this topic

#1 dafoomie

dafoomie

Posted 16 August 2013 - 07:39 PM

The federal government has made it easier than ever to borrow money for higher education - saddling a generation with crushing debts and inflating a bubble that could bring down the economy.

by Matt Taibbi

http://www.rollingst...0815?print=true

 

 

 

There are powerful reasons for both the left and the right to be willfully blind to the root problem. Democrats – who, incidentally, receive at least twice as much money from the education lobby as Republicans – like to see the raging river of free-flowing student loans as a triumph of educational access. Any suggestion that saddling befuddled youngsters with tens of thousands of dollars in school debts is somehow harmful or counterproductive to society is often swiftly shot down by politicians or industry insiders as an anti-student position. The idea that limitless government credit might be at least enabling high education costs tends to be derisively described as the "Bennett hypothesis," since right-wing moralist and notorious gambler/dick/hypocrite Bill Bennett once touted the same idea.  "It is wrong to suggest that student aid is a cause for growing college costs, in any sector," David Warren, president of the National Association of Independent Colleges and Universities, wrote in The Washington Post last year, bemoaning the "re-emergence" of the Bennett theory. "To argue so is counterproductive to the goal of making higher education accessible and affordable."

 

Conservatives, meanwhile, with their usual " Fuck everybody who complains about anything unless it's us" mentality, tend to portray the student-loan "problem" as a bunch of spoiled, irresponsible losers who are simply whining about having to pay back money they borrowed with their eyes wide open. When Yale and Penn recently began suing students who were defaulting on their federal Perkins loans, a Cato Institute analyst named Neal McCluskey pretty much summed up the conservative take. "You could take a job at Subway or wherever to pay the bills," he said. "It seems like basic responsibility to me."

 

But conservatives most of all should hate the current system for any number of reasons – for being a massive hidden tax, for being a market-defying subsidy artificially keeping ineffective and poor-performing institutions in business, and for being an example of arbitrary government power seizing not just money borrowed plus interest, but billions in additional fees and penalties from ordinary people.

 

Progressives should hate the predatory tactics of lenders and the sleazy way universities rely upon loan-shark collection methods to keep themselves in fancy new waterfalls, swimming pools and tenure-track jobs.

 



#2 Icegaryen

Icegaryen

    Stuart and the Ave

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 17 August 2013 - 02:52 AM

Yeah, well nobody is making students choose private schools. City and state schools are affordable to the point where FAFSA can fully cover education. There are countless individuals who attend art schools that cost 30 grand a year, while the medium income in that field is exactly 30 grand a year...if you can actually find a job in that field that is. If you were stupid enough to take a huge loan for a profession that has a terrible job market, the fault is only on you. 



#3 dafoomie

dafoomie

Posted 17 August 2013 - 05:41 AM

Did you RTFA because it kind of addresses your point...

 

A pell grant doesn't even pay for 100% of a community college anymore, and we're not even getting into room and board, books, living expenses...  It's the state schools that have increased the most in recent years due to budget cuts, and because private schools were already sky high.  Here is what every state subsidized school in my state costs as of last year (and there was another increase this year):

http://www.mass.edu/...s/res_total.asp

 

Most community colleges here are in the 5-6k range.  Most state schools are in the 8's and Umass is around 13.  Without room and board ($10-11k at UMass, 6-7k elsewhere), without books ($1200 on average), without the mandatory health insurance ($1500-$2000).

 

These aren't adults making informed decisions when choosing schools and getting into loans that might cripple them financially, many are minors when they have to make these commitments and the basic disclosures required by the lender of any other private loan are not made.  They're told that grades and SAT's are important so they can get into a "good" school and getting into a "good" school is criticial to their future.

 

Underemployment is a fact of life even on the money degrees in this job market.



#4 mrsilkunderwear

mrsilkunderwear

    Just Do It.

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 17 August 2013 - 05:57 AM

I wounder what would happen if the government got out of the education completely. Shut down Department of Education and let students pay for their own schooling. Do you think the prices would go down, stay the same or go up?



#5 detectiveconan16

detectiveconan16

    Look at that deal. It's so great!

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 17 August 2013 - 11:49 AM

If the government got out of education completely, why shouldn't it get out of other functions? Let private companies handle law enforcement, and defense, and sanitation, and all those functions of daily life you take for granted

 

That's like saying, these students CHOSE to go to school rather than finding a job out there. What prospects would you recommend? Flipping burgers at a fast food joint at a wage way below the poverty line? Fixing our decaying roads and bridges? Cleaning toilets? Picking  crops? Working in a factory?

 

No one's saying the government should pay schooling for college students 100%, but when costs are rising, and our young people are forced to take out crippling loans, there is a much bigger problem at hand.


Batsugunner.png


#6 kklems

kklems

    CAGiversary!

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 17 August 2013 - 12:45 PM

[quote name="detectiveconan16" post="10991399" timestamp="1376740162"
That's like saying, these students CHOSE to go to school rather than finding a job out there. What prospects would you recommend? Flipping burgers at a fast food joint at a wage way below the poverty line? Fixing our decaying roads and bridges? Cleaning toilets? Picking  crops? Working in a factory?
 
No one's saying the government should pay schooling for college students 100%, but when costs are rising, and our young people are forced to take out crippling loans,.[/quote]

Yes they choose to go to school. They also choose to take out loans. There are many options available to them. Why do they have to start college right out of high school? Why not work a year or to and save some money before starting school. How about working through college? This drivel about not being able to work and carry a full caseload is just wrong. A full caseload is 18 credit hours meaning approx 18 hours of classroom time ( plus any labs) leaving you 150 hours to sleep, study, work etc in a week. What about going to school part time and working in some fields, other fields allow you to have your education paid for in exchange for committing to year of work post graduation. Public sector jobs have loan forgiveness programs (although they are slow to pay). Get a job at the school for free or reduced tuition. Don't pick a major that does not have job prospects or won't produce a return in the form of a good paying job. Go to trade school. There is a demand for electricians, plumbers etc.

Take responsibility for your actions.

#7 Access_Denied

Access_Denied

    CAGiversary!

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 17 August 2013 - 02:30 PM

Yeah, well nobody is making students choose private schools. City and state schools are affordable to the point where FAFSA can fully cover education. There are countless individuals who attend art schools that cost 30 grand a year, while the medium income in that field is exactly 30 grand a year...if you can actually find a job in that field that is. If you were stupid enough to take a huge loan for a profession that has a terrible job market, the fault is only on you. 

 

Ha! FAFSA. You mean the worthless program that only offers you loans?

 

I just graduated, and for the last two years, I received NO financial aid. The first two years, I got money from Illinois (about $2,500 a year). Then they figured out they were broke and ditched that. I also received university scholarships in the hefty sum of $30 a semester. Finally, FAFSA just offered me loans. That's it. My parents are divorced, so my dad is a single father with 3 kids. My mom had no job and my dad hardly makes anything. Yet they still offered me shit.

 

And as for that whole tuition thing, you must have went to college long ago. My tuition at a state school was $16,000. Not including housing, food and supplies, which landed me at about $25,000 a year. A state school. Private schools that my friends went to charged upwards of $45,000 with everything included.

 

Anyway, all I'm saying is that college is a very different landscape today. It's no longer for anybody and is starting to become more and more for the rich again. (Which is why so many schools are offering free online classes with no degree. People are seeking alternative education methods.) The only reason I could afford it is because I happen to have a very generous aunt who helped me out with tuition (although I still worked full-time). Without her, if it was just my dad, I'd have upwards of $60,000 in loans right now (instead I'm at about $10k).

 

I don't care what school you go to, if you're looking to go to a 4 year university, you will not be able to pay for it unless your family is fairly wealthy or you have a college fund that's been accumulating for 20 years (which still might not be enough). These kids are forced into loans because they're forced into college. (Now the kids that take out ridiculous loans and get shitty degrees? That's another conversation. :lol:)



#8 highoffcoffee496

highoffcoffee496

    I gotta believe!

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 17 August 2013 - 02:40 PM

Yes they choose to go to school. They also choose to take out loans. There are many options available to them. Why do they have to start college right out of high school? Why not work a year or to and save some money before starting school. How about working through college? This drivel about not being able to work and carry a full caseload is just wrong. A full caseload is 18 credit hours meaning approx 18 hours of classroom time ( plus any labs) leaving you 150 hours to sleep, study, work etc in a week. What about going to school part time and working in some fields, other fields allow you to have your education paid for in exchange for committing to year of work post graduation. Public sector jobs have loan forgiveness programs (although they are slow to pay). Get a job at the school for free or reduced tuition. Don't pick a major that does not have job prospects or won't produce a return in the form of a good paying job. Go to trade school. There is a demand for electricians, plumbers etc.

Take responsibility for your actions.

 

I've worked since I was 16 and for my junior year at college I worked two part time jobs all while striving towards obtaining a double major. Even with this and financial help from my parents, I'll be graduating with well over $20,000 in debt in 2014......yay. I also love how my tuition has been raised every year while attending college


(\__/)
(='.'=)
This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny into your
(")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.

Posted Image

#9 irideabike

irideabike

Posted 17 August 2013 - 04:02 PM

I WAS FORCED AT GUNPOINT TO TAKE MY STUDENT LOANS, WOE IS ME


There are no shortcuts. No do-overs. What happened, happened. Trust me. I know. All of this matters.

Madden 13 SB Champ in the CAG gentleman's league.


#10 mrsilkunderwear

mrsilkunderwear

    Just Do It.

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 17 August 2013 - 05:22 PM

If the government got out of education completely, why shouldn't it get out of other functions? Let private companies handle law enforcement, and defense, and sanitation, and all those functions of daily life you take for granted

 

That's like saying, these students CHOSE to go to school rather than finding a job out there. What prospects would you recommend? Flipping burgers at a fast food joint at a wage way below the poverty line? Fixing our decaying roads and bridges? Cleaning toilets? Picking  crops? Working in a factory?

 

No one's saying the government should pay schooling for college students 100%, but when costs are rising, and our young people are forced to take out crippling loans, there is a much bigger problem at hand.

I agree why not? Federal government has no authority in the field of education. There is a good reason for that as founders wanted this to be taken care of by families, friends and local government of the student. Law enforcement can be done on a local level as it is now. Defense could be as well as each state would want a different budget, for example California would spend much more than Montana. Sanitation, well we could just get rid of that as federal government has no constitutional authority of keeping us clean and safe from germs. 

 

You seem to think if that people do not go schools than their only option is flipping burgers or fixing roads. I actually recommend learning computer languages and mobile hardware. Something that should be introduced in high schools instead of arts101 and aerobics. Foreign languages such as Chinese or German instead of French and Italian. How about technical and vocational schools? There are plenty of documentaries and news articles talking about how we need people in manufacturing industries. 

 

Actually quite of few people on the left and the right believe in free education. They think it is a right of every citizen when it is not. Costs are rising but it does not mean the government has to cover the expenses as the reason for the rise is because of them. Look at the data and you will see rise in costs after creation of Department of Education. You will see that there are more students that go to school and yet quality of education is decreasing and literacy levels have barely moved up. I am all for people having a choice of schooling as educated students will only lead to a better future and this is precisely why I argue with people on this matter. I believe we need a different approach as the current one has failed us. A free market approach where there is more competition, price naturally goes down and quality up. But in order for that to happen the federal government would need to stop trying to take care of our education. 



#11 Confucius

Confucius

    Corporate Shill

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 18 August 2013 - 03:01 PM

It's very simple: if you can't afford college, don't go to college.  Hell, it'd be better for everyone if less people went to college.  

 

I'm no conservative (pretty liberal I think) but seriously, you take out a loan and it's not your fault?  WTF thinking is that?  

 

If you consider yourself smart enough to go to college, then you better be smart enough to understand what taking out a huge loan to go to college means.

 

Why should hard working students who can't otherwise afford college (and who will pay back the loans) suffer (if there was less readily available loans) because of people who are crying cause "OMGZ, you have to pay back college loans?!?!"  Unless colleges/govt programs are loansharking at 25%, I don't see a problem.  Anyone who wants a college loan should get one.  It's up to the individual to decide on their personal ROI.

 

Also, before someone accuses me of being some rich elitist, I took out loans for college because I had to as well.  And that shit was 25k a year. (20 years ago-- shit i'm old.)


Ees7Y.jpg


I'm 100% shocked that books still exist in today's day and age. I thought they'd be out by now. They make up like 1% of today's entertainment and unless you're 60 or older, stray away from books and start emersing yourself with real entertainment.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Codes for Free / Codes for Trade


#12 Msut77

Msut77

    Occam's Shank

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 18 August 2013 - 03:34 PM

Did you read the article? Even a smart college freshman is one step removed from being a kid.

You graduated when it was much cheaper, if you have something worthwhile to contribute do so.


wahhhhh noone helped me so they must not help anyone. - knoell

#13 Confucius

Confucius

    Corporate Shill

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 18 August 2013 - 03:54 PM

Did you read the article? Even a smart college freshman is one step removed from being a kid.

You graduated when it was much cheaper, if you have something worthwhile to contribute do so.

 

"If you have something worthwhile to contribute do so."   :roll:   

 

25k a year is "much cheaper?"  Not in 90s dollars.  Not for my family.  My college education wasn't a walk in the park.  I worked my debt off after I graduated.  I knew what I was getting myself into.

 

As for reading the article, yes, I read it.   And that's my point.  At 18, one step removed from being a kid or not, you need to take some damn responsibility for your actions.    At 18, you're tried as an adult for crimes but god forbid you sign a loan document!  You must not have known what you were doing.


Ees7Y.jpg


I'm 100% shocked that books still exist in today's day and age. I thought they'd be out by now. They make up like 1% of today's entertainment and unless you're 60 or older, stray away from books and start emersing yourself with real entertainment.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Codes for Free / Codes for Trade


#14 Icegaryen

Icegaryen

    Stuart and the Ave

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 18 August 2013 - 10:13 PM

Ha! FAFSA. You mean the worthless program that only offers you loans?

 

I just graduated, and for the last two years, I received NO financial aid. The first two years, I got money from Illinois (about $2,500 a year). Then they figured out they were broke and ditched that. I also received university scholarships in the hefty sum of $30 a semester. Finally, FAFSA just offered me loans. That's it. My parents are divorced, so my dad is a single father with 3 kids. My mom had no job and my dad hardly makes anything. Yet they still offered me shit.

 

And as for that whole tuition thing, you must have went to college long ago. My tuition at a state school was $16,000. Not including housing, food and supplies, which landed me at about $25,000 a year. A state school. Private schools that my friends went to charged upwards of $45,000 with everything included.

 

Anyway, all I'm saying is that college is a very different landscape today. It's no longer for anybody and is starting to become more and more for the rich again. (Which is why so many schools are offering free online classes with no degree. People are seeking alternative education methods.) The only reason I could afford it is because I happen to have a very generous aunt who helped me out with tuition (although I still worked full-time). Without her, if it was just my dad, I'd have upwards of $60,000 in loans right now (instead I'm at about $10k).

 

I don't care what school you go to, if you're looking to go to a 4 year university, you will not be able to pay for it unless your family is fairly wealthy or you have a college fund that's been accumulating for 20 years (which still might not be enough). These kids are forced into loans because they're forced into college. (Now the kids that take out ridiculous loans and get shitty degrees? That's another conversation. :lol:)

Hard to believe that FAFSA offered you nothing with your circumstances. I have friends who are currently attending city colleges and their FAFSA + state grants cover their education fully.

 

I'm actually attending a four year state school right now. I was not given any FAFSA besides a 5.5k loan approval.  My school is 17k a year, including housing, food and etc. Scholarships are covering 6K of it. I'm very thankful to have parents who are willing to cover 5K of my bill. Thus, my loan is 5.5 grand and I cover the 500 left by working part time. Does everyone have parents who are able to shell out 5K a year? Of course not, and that's where FAFSA comes in (though the willingness of the parents to pay for education and the effect it has on FAFSA is a completely different conversation). 

 

 

 

Did you RTFA because it kind of addresses your point...

 

A pell grant doesn't even pay for 100% of a community college anymore, and we're not even getting into room and board, books, living expenses...  It's the state schools that have increased the most in recent years due to budget cuts, and because private schools were already sky high.  Here is what every state subsidized school in my state costs as of last year (and there was another increase this year):

http://www.mass.edu/...s/res_total.asp

 

Most community colleges here are in the 5-6k range.  Most state schools are in the 8's and Umass is around 13.  Without room and board ($10-11k at UMass, 6-7k elsewhere), without books ($1200 on average), without the mandatory health insurance ($1500-$2000).

 

These aren't adults making informed decisions when choosing schools and getting into loans that might cripple them financially, many are minors when they have to make these commitments and the basic disclosures required by the lender of any other private loan are not made.  They're told that grades and SAT's are important so they can get into a "good" school and getting into a "good" school is criticial to their future.

 

Underemployment is a fact of life even on the money degrees in this job market.

And here are the very similar costs in my city.

http://www.cuny.edu/...ition-fees.html

 

The maximum Federal Pell Grant award is $5,550 for the 2012–13. Community colleges  are in the 5-6k range. Four year  schools in my city are 5.7k. Even if the parents of these students cannot afford $200 per year for education, nor the student can get a part time job, I don't understand how a $300 per year loan is going to crush any futures. State grants are also given to low income students, they should cover books. What's the point of dorming if you are attending a community school? 



#15 Feeding the Abscess

Feeding the Abscess

    CAGiversary!

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 19 August 2013 - 06:35 AM

If the government got out of education completely, why shouldn't it get out of other functions? Let private companies handle law enforcement, and defense, and sanitation, and all those functions of daily life you take for granted

I'll shake on that one.


Anti-State, Anti-War, Pro-Market

#16 Blaster man

Blaster man

Posted 19 August 2013 - 04:05 PM

These problems have been building for years now.  Colleges and universities are becoming too expensive.  People need to attend local community colleges the first two years.  Those are much cheaper and frankly the education they teach is completely unnecessary for most work.  You don't need to be an expert of American history to have 99.99% of jobs for example.  If there was less demand from 4 year colleges because more people went to community college first then prices would be forced down.

 

In terms of people "being forced" to go to college, the fact is no one is forced to attend but it's hyperbole to insist that "if you can't afford it then you shouldn't go".  That would create a permanent subclass of poor uneducated people that become poorer every generation while the educated become more and more wealthy each generation as they constantly receive the best jobs.

 

A degree is very much necessary.

ep_chart_001.gif



#17 Confucius

Confucius

    Corporate Shill

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 19 August 2013 - 04:26 PM

You're completely ignoring the supply side.

As more and more people have bachelor's degrees, the median weekly earnings will drop because all the people with bachelor's degrees have devalued the bachelor's degree.  It's title inflation.  Today's master's degree is yesterday's bachelor degree.

 

A surplus of people in the workplace right now with bachelors degrees means you have all these people with those degrees working at starbucks.  Now, isn't it better if they didn't bother going to college just to end up working at starbucks from an ROI standpoint?  

 

I wonder what the median salary is for bachelor's degrees today vs 20 years ago or 50 years adjusted for inflation.

 

Getting back to the original point, if you get a loan to go to college and you get a degree in art history and end up 100k in debt, whose fault is that?  


Ees7Y.jpg


I'm 100% shocked that books still exist in today's day and age. I thought they'd be out by now. They make up like 1% of today's entertainment and unless you're 60 or older, stray away from books and start emersing yourself with real entertainment.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Codes for Free / Codes for Trade


#18 Dude009

Dude009

    Not cheap.. Frugal ;)

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 19 August 2013 - 04:40 PM

the sad thing to me; is people like confoosius, went to college and it likely really separated him from his peers, almost assured him of better living. (or atleast a job)

now-a-days it's the norm; like everybody is supposed to go, and most don't gain anything but debt from it.

 

can't help but feel it's such a fraud.  and we/the world support it so blindly.

i can learn/know the exact same things.. but that piece of paper means they're the better hire?  c'mon how messed up is that?  i'd rather the time where you went and might get the job if you seem a decent person and worth the time to train, not if you had money and bought some BS piece of paper.

true college gets you better job options.. but truly, it really shouldn't.  (i mean, it's not needed)

 

depends on the career obviously (i'd obviously not want a doctor learning on the job ;) )  but for the most part a degree is totally unnecessary, yet is needed because we put so much false value in it, over the person holding it.

soon you'll need one to flip burgers.



#19 Confucius

Confucius

    Corporate Shill

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 19 August 2013 - 04:57 PM

 

soon you'll need one to flip burgers.

 

You're not that far off.   And that's partly because the economy sucks but partly because of the huge surplus of college degrees.

 

I hope I'm not coming off as an elitist.  I firmly believe everyone should have the opportunity to go to college.  However, not everyone should actually go.

 

I think the problem we've created is that everyone was told they should go to college.  And it's just so not true.


Ees7Y.jpg


I'm 100% shocked that books still exist in today's day and age. I thought they'd be out by now. They make up like 1% of today's entertainment and unless you're 60 or older, stray away from books and start emersing yourself with real entertainment.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Codes for Free / Codes for Trade


#20 dohdough

dohdough

    Sum Dum Guy

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 19 August 2013 - 05:18 PM

You're completely ignoring the supply side.
As more and more people have bachelor's degrees, the median weekly earnings will drop because all the people with bachelor's degrees have devalued the bachelor's degree.  It's title inflation.  Today's master's degree is yesterday's bachelor degree.

This assumes that people with graduate degrees are filling entry level jobs formerly held by undergraduate degree holders. What you happen to be ignoring is that during the recession, most companies laid off their workforce and those that remained ended up picking up the slack. If you can get 100 workers to do the work of 200 and maintain an acceptable level of profitability, why bother hiring more people?
 

A surplus of people in the workplace right now with bachelors degrees means you have all these people with those degrees working at starbucks.  Now, isn't it better if they didn't bother going to college just to end up working at starbucks from an ROI standpoint?

Again, this is due to the economy, not a glut of graduates. Starbucks namedrop aside, what makes you think that a vast majority of the service industry would even hire a college grad when it makes more sense to hire someone without a degree?
 

I wonder what the median salary is for bachelor's degrees today vs 20 years ago or 50 years adjusted for inflation.

Economy was very different in 1993.
 

Getting back to the original point, if you get a loan to go to college and you get a degree in art history and end up 100k in debt, whose fault is that?

Why should the onus fall on some 17-22 year old kid as if the idea of going to college and incurring that kind of debt was conjured up solely in their mind without any outside influence? People don't make decisions in a vacuum.

Btw, an art history isn't worthless.

edit: Saw your new post and since I already put the effort into it, I figured I'd keep it. Feel free not to reply to it since you already addressed some points.

edit2: Part of the issue with "glut" is that income levels have been pretty stagnant for the last 30 years and in that time, the ability to to earn a decent living without a degree has been virtually decimated partially due to the successful attacks against organized labor, which puts more socio-economic pressure on kids to go into the level of debt you describe regardless of their major.
dohdough.png


"Speaking of which, there's another elitist prick that argues constantly on the Politics forums by the name of dohdough. He's a complete douche, but at least he keeps his posts in that cesspool of useless opinions. He gets my runner-up nomination."


Thanks for the nomination for the Most Memorable CAG Villan 2012, Blade!

#21 Confucius

Confucius

    Corporate Shill

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 19 August 2013 - 05:22 PM

While the idea wasn't solely conjured up in their mind, it's still their responsibility. 17/18 is a foolish age when looking back on it. But it's old enough to take responsibility for your own actions, loan documents included.

Art history isn't worthless. I never said it was. All learning to me is worthwhile. But if you get an art history degree and then lament the lack of jobs, that's on you for not understanding the market.

I would've loved to get a philosophy degree. Nope. Business degree cause I knew I was graduating with lots of debt.

Ees7Y.jpg


I'm 100% shocked that books still exist in today's day and age. I thought they'd be out by now. They make up like 1% of today's entertainment and unless you're 60 or older, stray away from books and start emersing yourself with real entertainment.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Codes for Free / Codes for Trade


#22 dohdough

dohdough

    Sum Dum Guy

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 19 August 2013 - 05:52 PM

While the idea wasn't solely conjured up in their mind, it's still their responsibility. 17/18 is a foolish age when looking back on it. But it's old enough to take responsibility for your own actions.

And are we, as a society, properly equipping them to make those decisions? Of course not. I'm not saying that they should have no responsibility, but there are far too many circumstances that make it a reasonable choice. What is our collective responsibility to that student if we're insisting on requiring and hiring based on some convoluted metrics like having a degree for a job that can be done by someone with a HS diploma? What purpose does that serve? Who does that really benefit beyond marginal returns?
 

Art history isn't worthless. I never said it was. All learning to me is worthwhile. But if you get an art history degree and then lament the lack of jobs, that's on you for not understanding the market.

I would've loved to get a philosophy degree. Nope. Business degree cause I knew I was graduating with lots of debt.

The types of jobs that are in demand change over time. Not everyone can go into business, finance, or computer science. Lamenting the lack of jobs probably has more to do with lack of jobs in general and not lack of jobs that are centered around art history. Both of us are old enough to come from the era that it didn't matter what you got your degree in because the paper was all you needed to get your foot in somewhere to make a living wage. The old joke about never having a career or job that uses your major still applies today. If you got a degree in business and are in that industry, then good for you, but that's not the typical experience of a good number of college grads.

Hell, I've been talking about the commoditization of higher ed on vs. for years. Frankly, I'm surprised that dafoomie, out of anyone, would be the one to post a thread about it.
dohdough.png


"Speaking of which, there's another elitist prick that argues constantly on the Politics forums by the name of dohdough. He's a complete douche, but at least he keeps his posts in that cesspool of useless opinions. He gets my runner-up nomination."


Thanks for the nomination for the Most Memorable CAG Villan 2012, Blade!

#23 Confucius

Confucius

    Corporate Shill

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 19 August 2013 - 06:37 PM

Obviously what your degree is in isnt the be all and end all of what your career is. I know plenty of liberal arts majors in business. Hell, I like hiring liberal arts majors for business jobs.

But if you get an art degree and can't find a job, that's not anyone's fault but your own. You misjudged the market. You can either be practical or not. But don't go crying about loans and debt because you chose to major in art history and there are 500 applicants for every art related job. On top of that, you can't get a "business" job because you have no idea what ROI means and can't work a spreadsheet.

Hot industries constantly change but don't tell me anyone going into college in 2009 thought, "you know I think museum curators are going to be needed 100 fold by the time I graduate."

But getting back to the OP, I don't think making easier for people to get loans is a bad thing.

Ees7Y.jpg


I'm 100% shocked that books still exist in today's day and age. I thought they'd be out by now. They make up like 1% of today's entertainment and unless you're 60 or older, stray away from books and start emersing yourself with real entertainment.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Codes for Free / Codes for Trade


#24 willardhaven

willardhaven

    Thief of Life

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 19 August 2013 - 09:45 PM

A college degree wouldn't be as important if high school prepared children for adulthood. College is becoming an extended highschool to offset the cost of education onto citizens instead of local governments.


PaulManda.png


#25 dafoomie

dafoomie

Posted 20 August 2013 - 12:23 AM

And here are the very similar costs in my city.

http://www.cuny.edu/...ition-fees.html

 

The maximum Federal Pell Grant award is $5,550 for the 2012–13. Community colleges  are in the 5-6k range. Four year  schools in my city are 5.7k. Even if the parents of these students cannot afford $200 per year for education, nor the student can get a part time job, I don't understand how a $300 per year loan is going to crush any futures. State grants are also given to low income students, they should cover books. What's the point of dorming if you are attending a community school? 

CUNY is the exception, not the rule, rare to see a 4 year school only asking for $5700 a year.  Most state colleges are $12-15k and up, which is cheap compared to 50-60k that the elite schools get.

 

You don't get the maximum award unless you have 0 income with no support from your parents, or you have kids.  A part time job, or a roof over your head from your parents can dramatically lower that.

 

It's easy to tell people not to dorm and to live at home for free but that's often not an option.  Living on campus allows you to defer the expense of putting a roof over your head when you'd otherwise have to work full time.



#26 Blaster man

Blaster man

Posted 20 August 2013 - 10:57 AM

I can't help but feel the point of my post was missed.

5% unemployment is considered "full employment". That means that the labor market is tight for those with college degrees. So yes, a college degree is still valuable as it has 1/2 the unemployment of those with only a high school diploma and the average wage is much higher.

Clearly it's important to work on a college degree that will result in a job but a few people choosing art history and working at Starbucks is anecdotal evidence and the chart above is factual evidence that a college degree is very valuable.

#27 Confucius

Confucius

    Corporate Shill

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 20 August 2013 - 01:36 PM

I can't help but feel the point of my post was missed.

5% unemployment is considered "full employment". That means that the labor market is tight for those with college degrees. So yes, a college degree is still valuable as it has 1/2 the unemployment of those with only a high school diploma and the average wage is much higher.

Clearly it's important to work on a college degree that will result in a job but a few people choosing art history and working at Starbucks is anecdotal evidence and the chart above is factual evidence that a college degree is very valuable.

 

Your chart above doesn't restrict the data to recent college graduates does it?    


Ees7Y.jpg


I'm 100% shocked that books still exist in today's day and age. I thought they'd be out by now. They make up like 1% of today's entertainment and unless you're 60 or older, stray away from books and start emersing yourself with real entertainment.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Codes for Free / Codes for Trade


#28 Blaster man

Blaster man

Posted 20 August 2013 - 03:20 PM

Your chart above doesn't restrict the data to recent college graduates does it?

You're right but this is the only data that we have.

#29 Confucius

Confucius

    Corporate Shill

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 20 August 2013 - 03:55 PM

You're right but this is the only data that we have.

 

Yeah I just think it's misleading because you've got accumulated data from everyone who graduated, say 40 years ago and is still working.  Those "bachelor" degrees are earning 60/70/whatever while the gulf between them and the high school grads of 40 years ago who are still earning 40/50/whatever a year..

 

If you saw this graph for the last 5 years, I bet the gap is smaller because of the high rate of unemployment or underemployment in the recently graduated classes.


Ees7Y.jpg


I'm 100% shocked that books still exist in today's day and age. I thought they'd be out by now. They make up like 1% of today's entertainment and unless you're 60 or older, stray away from books and start emersing yourself with real entertainment.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Codes for Free / Codes for Trade


#30 kill3r7

kill3r7

    MiNd ThE GaP

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 20 August 2013 - 04:32 PM

CUNY is the exception, not the rule, rare to see a 4 year school only asking for $5700 a year.  Most state colleges are $12-15k and up, which is cheap compared to 50-60k that the elite schools get.

 

You don't get the maximum award unless you have 0 income with no support from your parents, or you have kids.  A part time job, or a roof over your head from your parents can dramatically lower that.

 

It's easy to tell people not to dorm and to live at home for free but that's often not an option.  Living on campus allows you to defer the expense of putting a roof over your head when you'd otherwise have to work full time.

State schools tend to be pretty cheap just about everywhere else in the US outside of the Northeast, CUNY being an outlier. Hence why I plan to move out of the tri-state area once I have kids. I believe in state tuition at school like UT($4800-$5300 depending on major), UNC ($8,340), CU Boulder or CA school system, is very low compared to what some folks pay in the Northeast. Either way the cost of attending college is still way higher than it ought to be.


Xecutioner
CML