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Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal


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#61 kill3r7

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 03:41 PM

Of course they will make more money. But at what cost? 

 

Do you think someone making a few thousand less each year but at no point is crushed under the debt of student loans is going to have a lesser quality life then someone making slightly more money but can't get out from under 50-100,000 in student loan debt?

It depends what you mean by slightly more. On average college grads earn nearly 3 times more than high school grads. So I'm not sure that the fear/burden of debt should dissuade people from attending college. Also college is more than about making money.  Colleges/Universities were created as a way to enlighten, educate and prepare young people for life. If the objective is to earn a good living then those folks should learn a trade (go to  trade school or partake in an apprenticeship) but remember that there is more life then money.  Money is not the end all be all.


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#62 reatrocity

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 02:41 AM

Most bachelors degrees are essentially worthless at the moment without continuing graduate school. I just completed a degree with a B.A. in Psychology, and I went for this degree with the understanding that without continuing my education, my degree means absolutely nothing. Same goes for social work, you need an advanced degree for it to be viable.

 

Would I likely have chosen another degree had I known better? Absolutely. Although I'm passionate about I.O. Psychology, I know I would have done just as well in computer science. But mind you when I was first going to college, and living in Miami, computer science was not a good major to get into, considering all these jobs were being outsourced to other countries. Now in 2013, my husband is making bank with his A.A. degree in IT (even though we now live in the middle of nowhere for that job). I'm still in school with the hope that after I'm done with grad school I will make what he is making now at the very least, except with a lovely student loan to boot.

 

You guys tend to blame the students. And yeah, maybe some students do know better, but many don't. As someone who is the daughter of two parents who did not have the opportunity to go to school in their mother countries, I did not have guidance. I did it all on my own, from the moment I went to first grade up until I graduated with my B.A., and all of it I played by ear. I asked my parents for guidance, and all I ever got was "just go to school in what you feel is right, work hard and you'll get to where you want to go." I thank them for giving me the opportunity to be born and raised in this country, I thank them for a lot of things, but in the end, as much as I felt I knew about university during my senior year of high school-- the reality is quite different.

 

And that is what I'm doing. Yes you can blame students, but students are not the problem, the system is. We're just trying to do our best to make our family proud of us and be able to support them when they're old. No one goes to school with the intention of defaulting on their student loans, everyone has every intention of paying them. I know I do. I worked close to full time while going to college, I did not have a "social" life, as I did not have time for friends or clubs. I still am graduating owing a pretty penny even if I went to a public university.

 

People say study math and science, but even those who have a math or science B.A. are not immune. No one is. My husband and I had to move to the middle of nowhere, WV to make a comfortable living. Some people are not willing to leave their families to make this sacrifice.

 

We students are stuck between a rock and a hard place and all we can do is make the decisions we think will get us furthest and hope for the best.


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#63 GBAstar

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 02:52 AM

It depends what you mean by slightly more. On average college grads earn nearly 3 times more than high school grads. So I'm not sure that the fear/burden of debt should dissuade people from attending college. Also college is more than about making money.  Colleges/Universities were created as a way to enlighten, educate and prepare young people for life. If the objective is to earn a good living then those folks should learn a trade (go to  trade school or partake in an apprenticeship) but remember that there is more life then money.  Money is not the end all be all.

 

 

That article clearly says HS dropouts. My point was a hard working individual with a HS diploma that goes on to do welding or carpentry or something where they can get a return immediately at $10, $15, $20 an hour (i.e. 20k-40k) can immediately start adding value to their worth versus someone who goes to college, gets a degree, and then is working a $15-$30 an hour job (i.e. 30k-60k) while having to budget $300 a month towards student loans.

 

I think if we had more hardworking people in this country and less enlightened people we would be better off.



#64 kill3r7

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 10:57 AM

That article clearly says HS dropouts. My point was a hard working individual with a HS diploma that goes on to do welding or carpentry or something where they can get a return immediately at $10, $15, $20 an hour (i.e. 20k-40k) can immediately start adding value to their worth versus someone who goes to college, gets a degree, and then is working a $15-$30 an hour job (i.e. 30k-60k) while having to budget $300 a month towards student loans.

I think if we had more hardworking people in this country and less enlightened people we would be better off.


http://nces.ed.gov/f...splay.asp?id=77

The difference is still pretty staggering. Also take a moment to consider the inadequacy As I stated above, vocational schools are an excellent way for folks to learn a trade and earn a good living. I disagree that our country needs more plumbers, electricians, mechanics etc. If the objective is still to be the leaders of the free world then we need a highly educated workforce to be better able to face the challenges the future holds. We need more people to major in the hard sciences, math and engineering rather than psychology and communications.


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#65 GBAstar

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 11:09 AM

http://nces.ed.gov/f...splay.asp?id=77

The difference is still pretty staggering. Also take a moment to consider the inadequacy As I stated above, vocational schools are an excellent way for folks to learn a trade and earn a good living. I disagree that our country needs more plumbers, electricians, mechanics etc. If the objective is still to be the leaders of the free world then we need a highly educated workforce to be better able to face the challenges the future holds. We need more people to major in the hard sciences, math and engineering rather than psychology and communications.

 

Right... because America was built on the backs of the enlightened and educated  :rofl:At some point, probably at the same time other countries started to emerge as world powers, we lost our way under the guise of "do less.... think MOAR"

 

We need less labor saving devices and more.... labor.

 

Now remember if one enters the work force at 18 that is 4-5 years of extra earning. In reality they could be $200,000 ahead before a college graduate even accepts a job when you factor the 4-5 years of loss wages while enrolled in college and the 4-5 years of debt accumulation that a college student will face. So if a college graduate is making for example $20,000 more a year it would take at least 10 years of earning (we're at 33 years old + now) before they break even with the person that skipped college and that's assuming they aren't accruing interest on their student loans (and we know how likely that is......).

 

The problem is we're shoving the perception of "college is 4 every1" down the throat of every single youth in this country and that just isn't true. People use to know what they wanted to do before going to college and now we have kids 3 years in without an idea (or care) in the world.

 

In the grand scheme of things life is short and personally I would not recommend college to anyone that doesn't have some sort of plan unless they come from privilege and want to hang out at the Middlebury's and Amherst of the world if nothing more then to network and rub elbows with other country club kids.



#66 kill3r7

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 12:37 PM

Right... because America was built on the backs of the enlightened and educated  :rofl:At some point, probably at the same time other countries started to emerge as world powers, we lost our way under the guise of "do less.... think MOAR"

 

We need less labor saving devices and more.... labor.

 

America like the rest of the world was built on the backs of the underprivileged, underpaid, hard working immigrants... oh yeah and those slaves (ie cheap labor). The problem we face today is a global economy. No one is going to hire Joe and Mary when it is cheaper to manufacture something in China or wherever the next low paying workforce might be. The America that you so fondly remember never really existed. The roaring 50s were wonderful if you were a white male, not so much so for anyone else but I digress. My point is that an educated workforce is better able to face the challenges of a global economy.

 

Now remember if one enters the work force at 18 that is 4-5 years of extra earning. In reality they could be $200,000 ahead before a college graduate even accepts a job when you factor the 4-5 years of loss wages while enrolled in college and the 4-5 years of debt accumulation that a college student will face. So if a college graduate is making for example $20,000 more a year it would take at least 10 years of earning (we're at 33 years old + now) before they break even with the person that skipped college and that's assuming they aren't accruing interest on their student loans (and we know how likely that is......).

 

I would buy your argument if I believed for a second that the avg high school grad was capable of saving $200K over 4-5 years. Do they not have to pay taxes? Rent? Or other living expenses? And last but not least are they not prone to credit card debt?

 

My dad is an electrician and last I checked he never mentioned a shortage of them. This idea that our workforce is need of more electricians, plumbers, mechanics etc is a total myth.  Furthermore, an individual who wants to pursue a career in one of these fields has to complete an apprenticeship prior to obtaining a license. Depending on state licensing laws an apprenticeship can last anywhere from 5-7 years.  Oh year while training they're not making $40K-$50K a year. However, once licensed they do earn a very good living. Especially if they own their own business.

 

The problem is we're shoving the perception of "college is 4 every1" down the throat of every single youth in this country and that just isn't true. People use to know what they wanted to do before going to college and now we have kids 3 years in without an idea (or care) in the world.

 

You do realize that by having people go to college you are in fact helping out the workforce. College delays thousands of high school grads from entering the workforce by 4-5 years. If you think it's difficult to find a job now, imagine an America  where a large portion of high school grads enters the workforce rather than going to college.

 

In the grand scheme of things life is short and personally I would not recommend college to anyone that doesn't have some sort of plan unless they come from privilege and want to hang out at the Middlebury's and Amherst of the world if nothing more then to network and rub elbows with other country club kids.

 

I know nothing about rubbing elbows with the rich and privileged since that was not my scene but there is nothing wrong with networking.


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#67 Confucius

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 01:58 PM

200k in 5 years?

 

Let's say you have 0 expenses.  You'd have to net 40k a year.   So a hs grad is going to make 60k a year and not spend a dime of it?

 

oooooooo k.

 

If you have the aptitude, then going to college is the absolute right thing to do.  

 

 

http://nces.ed.gov/f...splay.asp?id=77

The difference is still pretty staggering. Also take a moment to consider the inadequacy As I stated above, vocational schools are an excellent way for folks to learn a trade and earn a good living. I disagree that our country needs more plumbers, electricians, mechanics etc. If the objective is still to be the leaders of the free world then we need a highly educated workforce to be better able to face the challenges the future holds. We need more people to major in the hard sciences, math and engineering rather than psychology and communications.

 

We do.  we need a lot more of those.    But we also need people to understand that they're simply not smart enough for college and stop wasting time going to college and racking up debt.  


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I'm 100% shocked that books still exist in today's day and age. I thought they'd be out by now. They make up like 1% of today's entertainment and unless you're 60 or older, stray away from books and start emersing yourself with real entertainment.

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#68 skiizim

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 04:20 PM

I've been in and out of this thread, I'm pretty sure it hasn't been posted but how about bringing the attention of people squandering there financial aid on personal wants, not what it was intended for. I've personally known a lot of people who have done this and have even seen it in this message board where people say they are waiting on their FA money to get a certain game. I have no idea how big of a problem this is but I've seen it more than enough to know at least in Southern California that this happens frequently.

 

It may not be a solution but if the money truly goes to people who want to use it for where it's intended it may be a start.



#69 GBAstar

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 04:36 PM

200k in 5 years?

 

Let's say you have 0 expenses.  You'd have to net 40k a year.   So a hs grad is going to make 60k a year and not spend a dime of it?

 

oooooooo k.

 

 

 

 

I don't want to call you a dummy but read between the lines... I clearly said when you factor in five years worth of wages versus a college student who leaves with substantial debt it wouldn't be unusual for the HS graduate who immediately entered the work force to be $200,000 ahead. How does that not make sense?

 

Edit: To make it clearer

 

HS Graduate = 4-5 years of working income + no debt = positive net worth

 

College Graduate = 4-5 years of debt accumulation (+ possible interest on debt) + little to no income  while in college = negative net worth.



#70 Confucius

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 06:56 PM

Ok I'll buy your premise of 4 years of racking up debt for the college graduate.

 

The high school grad, meanwhile has lived with his parents and saved 4 years worth of working.   

 

Let's assume after 4 years, the college grad is 200k behind as you stated.

 

Now look at this report from Georgetown University: http://www.usnews.co...lifetime-salary

 

Those with bachelor's degrees, no matter the field, earn vastly more than counterparts with some college ($1.55 million in lifetime earnings) or a high school diploma ($1.30 million lifetime),

 
College degree = $2.27M earnings.
 
An extra mil isn't worth a 200k investment?
 
There is no question that having a college degree, on average, is worth the ROI unless, you know, you really have no business going to college in the first place.

 

Yes, I'm sure you are or know high school grads making 6 figures.  We're not talking outliers here.  We're talking average and aggregate.


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I'm 100% shocked that books still exist in today's day and age. I thought they'd be out by now. They make up like 1% of today's entertainment and unless you're 60 or older, stray away from books and start emersing yourself with real entertainment.

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#71 UncleBob

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 07:32 PM

If the tobacco industry conducted and released a study about how smoking made your life better, anyone caught citing it would be laughed out of the room.

But a private univisity with a study about how awesome higher education is for you... naw. No questions there. :D
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#72 Confucius

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 07:38 PM

If the tobacco industry conducted and released a study about how smoking made your life better, anyone caught citing it would be laughed out of the room.

But a private univisity with a study about how awesome higher education is for you... naw. No questions there. :D

I actually knew someone would make that ridiculous argument.

It's GU, not university of Phoenix. They don't need to justify anything. Nor would anyone of that stature publish a less than defensible study.

But why am I bothering to explain that to you.

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I'm 100% shocked that books still exist in today's day and age. I thought they'd be out by now. They make up like 1% of today's entertainment and unless you're 60 or older, stray away from books and start emersing yourself with real entertainment.

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#73 mrsilkunderwear

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 07:54 PM

I actually knew someone would make that ridiculous argument.

It's GU, not university of Phoenix. They don't need to justify anything. Nor would anyone of that stature publish a less than defensible study.

But why am I bothering to explain that to you.

It seems you are willing to believe anything if it comes from some authority. Don't you think it is good to question things? Haven't the greatest minds in our history been saying the same thing? 



#74 Confucius

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 08:03 PM

It seems you are willing to believe anything if it comes from some authority. Don't you think it is good to question things? Haven't the greatest minds in our history been saying the same thing?


Let me guess, don't believe in evolution?

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I'm 100% shocked that books still exist in today's day and age. I thought they'd be out by now. They make up like 1% of today's entertainment and unless you're 60 or older, stray away from books and start emersing yourself with real entertainment.

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#75 mrsilkunderwear

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 08:12 PM

Let me guess, don't believe in evolution?

Actually I am an atheist. I like science, its fun. 



#76 UncleBob

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 08:42 PM

I actually knew someone would make that ridiculous argument.

It's GU, not university of Phoenix. They don't need to justify anything. Nor would anyone of that stature publish a less than defensible study.

But why am I bothering to explain that to you.


You're right. How could I have ever questioned them, or you? Bad me. I'll go sit in the corner now. :D
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#77 Confucius

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 08:46 PM

You're right. How could I have ever questioned them, or you? Bad me. I'll go sit in the corner now. :D


Are you unfamiliar with Georgetown univ?

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I'm 100% shocked that books still exist in today's day and age. I thought they'd be out by now. They make up like 1% of today's entertainment and unless you're 60 or older, stray away from books and start emersing yourself with real entertainment.

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#78 CaseyRyback

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 11:24 PM

State schools tend to be pretty cheap just about everywhere else in the US outside of the Northeast, CUNY being an outlier. Hence why I plan to move out of the tri-state area once I have kids. I believe in state tuition at school like UT($4800-$5300 depending on major), UNC ($8,340), CU Boulder or CA school system, is very low compared to what some folks pay in the Northeast. Either way the cost of attending college is still way higher than it ought to be.


UNC is basically double what it was 10 years ago. I went to NCSU for my undergrad about 5 years ago and my debt load was less than 25K. Costs at the two are comparable.

I am in grad school at ECU and its like a grand a class.

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#79 Blaster man

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 02:06 PM

Georgetown is a well respected and accredited university. For someone to say its unreliable is pretty outrageous.

#80 Confucius

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 03:14 PM

Georgetown is a top 25 school.  They are in that second tier right below the ivys and west coast ivys.

 

Questioning their integrity on this study is just foolish and ignorant.

 

 

They don't need to conduct (or skew) a study showing that college grads make more.  In fact, if they came out with a study that college is completely worthless from an ROI standpoint, they'd still have people lining up to get in.  


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I'm 100% shocked that books still exist in today's day and age. I thought they'd be out by now. They make up like 1% of today's entertainment and unless you're 60 or older, stray away from books and start emersing yourself with real entertainment.

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#81 mrsilkunderwear

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 04:40 PM

I think it is foolish to always believe everything you read. Do you honestly believe every study will have the most accurate results? I found this in less than 2 minutes:

http://www.upi.com/B...39241366157480/



#82 GBAstar

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 05:04 PM

Georgetown is a top 25 school.  They are in that second tier right below the ivys and west coast ivys.

 

Questioning their integrity on this study is just foolish and ignorant.

 

 

They don't need to conduct (or skew) a study showing that college grads make more.  In fact, if they came out with a study that college is completely worthless from an ROI standpoint, they'd still have people lining up to get in.  

 

 

Georgetown = Allen Iverson..... so yeah

 

 

But regardless no one is disputing that someone will make more money and have better overall opportunities with a college degree then someone with just a high school degree.

 

What you are refusing to accept is that going to college costs many ordinary people (minus the uber poor and uber rich) a lot of money and a lot of time.

 

What you are refusing to accept is that many people have the aptitude to go to college and in fact do so and they don't end up doing any better for themselves then if they had just gone right into the work force.

 

Colleges and universities are no different then big businesses and if the didn't turn a profit there wouldn't be thousands of them; each sinking tons of money into attracting new students.... now even focusing on recruiting internationally (more so then before).

 

To say that anyone who has the aptitude to go to college SHOULD is about the most irresponsible advice you can give.



#83 Confucius

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 07:02 PM

I think it is foolish to always believe everything you read. Do you honestly believe every study will have the most accurate results? I found this in less than 2 minutes:
http://www.upi.com/B...39241366157480/

Lol. When did I say I believe everything I read? The point is the Georgetown has nothing to gain by publishing a bad study. Also, as far as complexity goes, this is pretty simple.

You can refute the Georgetown study if you want. Doesn't change the fact that college grads will make more money on average than high school grads. If it makes you feel better not to believe it, good for you.

Ees7Y.jpg


I'm 100% shocked that books still exist in today's day and age. I thought they'd be out by now. They make up like 1% of today's entertainment and unless you're 60 or older, stray away from books and start emersing yourself with real entertainment.

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#84 UncleBob

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 07:28 PM

Guys, College Grads are doing great! I'm not even sure why this is up for discussion.

I mean, aside from the fact that so many College Grads are doing so poorly that they're unable to payback their student loans, causing something just short of a crisis in the student loan arena. :D
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#85 Confucius

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 07:44 PM

I love how I'm being attacked by the high school mafia. It's just like high school all over again!

Look, I'm sure all you guys are doing great and have made great decisions in your respective careers. But The numbers don't lie - college grads earn more than hs grads on average. You guys must be the outliers so kudos.

By the way I never said everybody should go to college. But anyone who wants to and has the aptitude should be able to get loans easily.

Ees7Y.jpg


I'm 100% shocked that books still exist in today's day and age. I thought they'd be out by now. They make up like 1% of today's entertainment and unless you're 60 or older, stray away from books and start emersing yourself with real entertainment.

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#86 UncleBob

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 08:26 PM

I love how I'm being attacked by the high school mafia. It's just like high school all over again!


Funny thing is, I am a college grad.

But, the point is, you're taking a very narrow study from an orginzation that obviously has no ponies in this race or anything, and trying to say that it's the end-all of the conversation. There are so many other factors and outliers that this particular study does not even account for.

You know, like the one that's coming up now, where college grads can't even afford to pay off their loans, causing the entire economy to collapse. (Okay, a little overdramatic there).
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#87 Andami

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 01:04 AM

Disregarding the current discussion, I'd like to add some thoughts based around personal experience.

 

The average tuition to University of West Florida (the college I attend) is $6,000 a year. Books are usually $800 - $1200 a year. Bright Futures (a Florida state scholarship), gives out between $2,000 - $5,000 a year. The requirements for the max amount are 3.5 GPA, 100 hrs community service, 29 on ACT, 2 foreign language credits. The scholarships dispersed bu UWF range from $4,000 - $24,000 over four years. Just those two scholarships should cover most or all of tuition for an above average student. Financial Aid should cover any lingering costs if you qualify. Any other costs are not directly related to college and would occur anyway, so I didn't include housing, transportation, etc.

 

tl;dr - If you go to a smaller school*, college education in my home state should be affordable to anyone who didn't Fuck around in high school.

 

*Here are some cheaper colleges in my state.

http://www.collegeca...-state-tuition/



#88 panzerfaust

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 12:24 AM

I made all the typical, poor decisions of a recent graduate and owe a lot money and have few job prospects, but I really don't think it's anyone's fault but the individual's. Tuition costs an absurd amount of money, and it probably is a scandal, but if you're smart about it you can work the system well and work a solid future from attending a university and community colleges. Plus, even though my case in particular is bad, I still think paying off loans is very manageable. Then again, I know kids who have somehow taken out triple the amount I have. That's gotta suck.


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#89 Spokker

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 08:40 PM

I never paid a cent of college tuition in my life. I did take out loans for graduate school, though. I was able to budget really well and refrained from using a very sizable chunk of it and was ready to just pay off almost half of it right away, but we had an emergency. I owe but I don't think I'm a slave to Sallie Mae or anything.

Got an okay job relatively quickly out of college but laid off eight months later because the company was run into the ground. Kinda irked because I wish it was a full year of experience but you take what you can get. And maybe you get what you pay for when it comes to degrees, but who knows. Selection bias is a bitch when it comes to estimating the value of a college education.

#90 mrsilkunderwear

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 03:25 PM

I never paid a cent of college tuition in my life. I did take out loans for graduate school, though. I was able to budget really well and refrained from using a very sizable chunk of it and was ready to just pay off almost half of it right away, but we had an emergency. I owe but I don't think I'm a slave to Sallie Mae or anything.

Got an okay job relatively quickly out of college but laid off eight months later because the company was run into the ground. Kinda irked because I wish it was a full year of experience but you take what you can get. And maybe you get what you pay for when it comes to degrees, but who knows. Selection bias is a bitch when it comes to estimating the value of a college education.

Was it a business degree?