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CAGcast #338: Hot Air Machines

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#1 CheapyD

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 08:07 AM

The gang discusses Steam OS and Machine news, GTA V, Shadow Warrior, Kinect 2 fears, and two kinds of SHIELDs!
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I guess you can listen to Wombat's other podcast, Uninformed Opinions.
 



#2 Sgt Barone

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 12:38 PM

Rejoice!


Here's to a great year of gaming in 2014   :beer:


#3 Darth Sontin

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 01:09 PM

I'm 3:00 in, and I have to say I don't want any of you to go!

 

Without Cheapy, there'd be no one to give PC games the love they need. Plus, who would be our homie in Saints Row 3?

 

Without Shipwreck, we'd lose valuable intel on Target inventories. There'd be no one to report on the gadgets that no one in the world besides Shipwreck has bought, like the WiiU and Shield.

 

Without Wombat, there would be no one to pick up swag at E3. We'd miss out on jokes that are always hilarious and never corny.


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#4 Daniel7394

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 02:05 PM

GTA V Is so much better than the last one! The three man missions work really well and much better than what i thought it would!



#5 jms493

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 02:07 PM

FYI...I am only buying an XBOX ONE is because of Forza 5 at launch.

 

Great show this week.



#6 4thHorseman

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 02:23 PM

Wait. I'm confused.

 

When people declared the PS4 as the better system, you said people can't jump to conclusions because the systems aren't out yet.

 

Then with the Steam machines, you guys are already dismissing it as something that isn't going to do anything. And what's worse, is that they haven't even revealed everything. Just that there will be a box that can be streamed and a special OS that it will use.

 

Can you explain the difference? Because it looks like pretty much the same thing you gave people crap about. Except at least we knew more about the PS4 and Xbox One than we know about the Steam machines.



#7 willardhaven

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 02:28 PM

Cheapy made a great point about reactionary posting. Sorry about that Shipwreck.


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#8 Taneerian

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 02:34 PM

I don't know if I've ever heard anyone so upset by not being able to use a giant purple dildo!
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#9 jms493

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 02:36 PM

I think the steam machine model much like steam has a 10 year plan.  It may not appear to be much now but if it evolves the way Steam does then these machines might be totally awesome in the future.  Gabe has a pretty good track record of making good strategic decisions and blazing a trail.  I will follow until noted otherwise.



#10 Kaneco

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 03:23 PM

I think the 'PS VIta TV' name is very fitting for the system, since it seems to play PSVita & PSP games off the bat without the need of and actual 'Vita', with the ability to stream (more like Remote play) PS4 games....BUT! with the need of a physical PS4 in the household.

I'm honestly not too thrilled about getting this product! It's TOO expensive, not portable & it can't play Vita games that REQUIRE the touchscreen controls. I would have rather it be a wireless Remote-play 'peripheral' that would work as TV-Out for the (Physical) Vita & PS4 (if they STILL WON'T add TV-OUT FOR THE VITA! Unlike the PSP-2000/3000/Go!) for a far more reasonable price!

 

I honestly can't tell if this thing will sell well, when the PSVita can barely manage to do it....or it's just NOT for me. I would love to be proven wrong, though.

@Wombat, Games do SELL consoles not the other way around....the other way around will 'never' be a huge 'notable' factor. There may be some that will buy games due to being in their console of choice but that's because they already owned the console &/or have the money to spare, the consoles are never the drive for the 'gaming market', it's the games that 'MOSTLY' move units! 

The people that plan to buy games already announced for a console's launch line-up don't go ahead and think.... "I'm buying that game!...because it's coming out for the console I'm getting for no games at all! Just because I want the console!...and I won't even bat an eye whether the games good or not, or if I even like it". I'm not saying those kind of people don't exist, but they are a very small 'niche' minority!

 

TL;DR version: I highly disagree with your statement Wombat, the paradigm for getting consoles is never changing....MOST (the majority) people get 'GAMING' (Keyword) consoles for the games, not games for the gaming consoles! I'm sorry, It's a ridiculous way of thinking & rather nonsensical, just to put it mildly....after all what makes 'Gaming Consoles' a 'Gaming Device'....The games! ;)

 

Great show guys! Keep it up!



#11 jms493

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 03:42 PM

I think the 'PS VIta TV' name is very fitting for the system, since it seems to play PSVita & PSP games off the bat without the need of and actual 'Vita', with the ability to stream (more like Remote play) PS4 games....BUT! with the need of a physical PS4 in the household.

I'm honestly not too thrilled about getting this product! It's TOO expensive, not portable & it can't play Vita games that REQUIRE the touchscreen controls. I would have rather it be a wireless Remote-play 'peripheral' that would work as TV-Out for the (Physical) Vita & PS4 (if they STILL WON'T add TV-OUT FOR THE VITA! Unlike the PSP-2000/3000/Go!) for a far more reasonable price!

 

I honestly can't tell if this thing will sell well, when the PSVita can barely manage to do it....or it's just NOT for me. I would love to be proven wrong, though.

@Wombat, Games do SELL consoles not the other way around....the other way around will 'never' be a huge 'notable' factor. There may be some that will buy games due to being in their console of choice but that's because they already owned the console &/or have the money to spare, the consoles are never the drive for the 'gaming market', it's the games that 'MOSTLY' move units! 

The people that plan to buy games already announced for a console's launch line-up don't go ahead and think.... "I'm buying that game!...because it's coming out for the console I'm getting for no games at all! Just because I want the console!...and I won't even bat an eye whether the games good or not, or if I even like it". I'm not saying those kind of people don't exist, but they are a very small 'niche' minority!

 

TL;DR version: I highly disagree with your statement Wombat, the paradigm for getting consoles is never changing....MOST (the majority) people get 'GAMING' (Keyword) consoles for the games, not games for the gaming consoles! I'm sorry, It's a ridiculous way of thinking & rather nonsensical, just to put it mildly....after all what makes 'Gaming Consoles' a 'Gaming Device'....The games! ;)

 

Great show guys! Keep it up!

 

Yeah Shipwreck already dismissed his theory by stating (if I recall correctly) "That might be the worst point you have every made on this show"



#12 bickle

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 03:43 PM

CAG #338

7:30 Game Junkie Expo
11:00 Nvidia Shield
21:00 Watch This: Agents of SHIELD
23:15 Tesla Model S
25:30 - The Spectaular Now
26:15 - World War Z
27:15 New Releases
27:17 - FIFA 14, Pro Evolution Soccer 2014
27:45 - Girl Fight
29:30 - Scribblenauts Unmasked
31:30 - Legend of Zelda: Wind Walker HD
33:15 - Ascend Hand of Kul
36:30 - Shadow Warrior
43:00 GTA V
51:15 - Saints Row IV or GTA V
54:45 Angry Videogame Nerd Adventures
56:15 Steam, SteamOS, Steam Machines
1:11:00 PSN spend $50 get $10 through October
1:12:15 Taco Bell PS4 giveaway
1:15:00 Kotaku Kinect article
1:22:30 iOS7
1:23:00 Cagbag
1:23:00 - Worst console name
1:26:30 - Too much game info, too early
1:29:45 - Titanfall
1:36:45 Ship is crowned the 3rd Place Beef Jerky Champion
1:37:15 - Best presentation of consoles

#13 trip1eX

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 03:59 PM

The Shield is everyone wanting to do consumer electronics because of Apple's success, and everyone being able to try because Android is free.  Then it doesn't hurt that it shows off Nvidia's chips and requires an Nvidia gpu in your pc for game streaming.  And probably doesn't hurt that when the idea was getting off the ground, Nintendo announced a console with a streaming gamepad, which I imagine can only help some exec etc better defend the idea.



#14 easper

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 04:01 PM

Not sure how anyone can come down hard on whether Steam Machines are "for" anyone. They'll be small PCs, designed to take advantage of SteamOS. So somewhere between a closed console and a fully "open" upgradeable PC. Right? Assuming there is any kind of market (and there are probably more people than me who want to get into the world of cheap PC games), there will be a variety of hardware options at various prices and technical prowess. It's like Wombat's iPod analogy. Valve wants more people spending money on Steam, the way Apple's iPod business was all about getting people spending money in iTunes. They don't need to make money on Steam machine hardware to come out ahead. I'm all for healthy skepticism, but it makes me happy to see a financially stable company I like taking chances on something that may or may not be the future of box-connected-to-TV gaming.



#15 trip1eX

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 04:11 PM

Bring TiredJohn on the show once in awhile.  Everything he says carries extra weight because of his accent.  And he seems to have some strong opinions which is always good podcast fodder.



#16 trip1eX

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 04:21 PM

I'm getting WW.  My 6 yr old hasn't seen it.   My 12 yr old was 4  when I  read every bit of text out loud to him and I did most of the playing.   So voila, an excuse to buy it again.  But getting a game I played 8 years ago 2 weeks early isn't any incentive to pay $50 for the digital version that has no resale value.



#17 jms493

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 04:23 PM

Yes in order to get people into Steam you need to make more ways for people to access it.  Everything revolves around Steam and getting people into that ecosystem.  Family Sharing is an easy way to start...Cheapy can share his whole library with Wombat and he can instantly have access to 100s of games without it costing him a dime (besides the cost of a Steam Machine).

 

Steam is just expanding ways to get more people involved in it because that is how Valve is making their money.

  • PC Client
  • Web Access
  • Mobile Access
  • Big Picture Mode
  • Family Sharing
  • Steam OS
  • Game Streaming
  • Steam Machine

I believe this is all a big drawn out plan and strategy.  I believe Valve wants to keep what makes PC gaming so much fun and being able to tinker with the machine.  If you want more RAM then go ahead, you want better grafx then buy a better grafx card.  

 

I look forward to the future of gaming on the PC more than what these consoles have to offer.



#18 Hast

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 04:25 PM

Not sure how anyone can come down hard on whether Steam Machines are "for" anyone. They'll be small PCs, designed to take advantage of SteamOS. So somewhere between a closed console and a fully "open" upgradeable PC. Right?

Yeah, I think it's disingenuous to look at the Steam Machines as simply competitors to consoles or a normal PC. These are not only competing with hardware, they are also competing with software (ie Windows). The long term goal seems to be that games are released natively on SteamOS (ie Linux) and that's not an entirely crazy plan. Most engines today are already targeting multiple platforms so targeting one more isn't too big of a deal. There just needs to be a market for it so it makes sense.

 

The end game is that any PC you buy is a Steam Machine, because why wouldn't it be? All "gaming class" motherboards could have SteamOS as part of the BIOS. Plug the components in and you're good to go.

 

And the reason Gaben is upset with Windows 8 is because pretty much everything in it that is new (ie "Metro") is locked away for people who make desktop applications. And it's quite clear that this is the direction Microsoft is moving right now. People like Gabe are worried that the desktop side of Windows will languish and left to die (if it makes sense for Microsoft to do this is debatable of course). SteamOS is insurance if that day ever comes.

 

And hey, even people who love Windows 8 and never want to use a different OS can be happy. If Microsoft are no longer guaranteed that you have to buy Windows for gaming then perhaps they will make an effort in the future. (Instead of just incrementing the version of DirectX and requiring people to get the new Windows to use it.)



#19 zerocool397

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 04:31 PM


I think the steam machine model much like steam has a 10 year plan.  It may not appear to be much now but if it evolves the way Steam does then these machines might be totally awesome in the future.  Gabe has a pretty good track record of making good strategic decisions and blazing a trail.  I will follow until noted otherwise.

 

Ya, they are really holding a short term view. This is really just the beginning and based on what Gabe has talked about he expects a good, better, best scenario. 

Good would be a in-home streamer (may not be perfect yet)

Better would be some sort of box that has recommended specs. (probably more on par with consoles)
Best would probably just be a gaming PC.

 

 

This thing never really had a chance to compete with consoles or even PC gaming, so it really doesn't matter when they release it. It may actually be better that they release it afterwards because now they know the specs of the new consoles, which won't be refreshed for years.Now they can spec the "better" option on par if not better than the next gen consoles.



#20 jms493

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 04:37 PM

Also this is just the beginning of streaming video wireless.  As our internet connections get better and our Router tech improves I predict streaming will become easier.

 

I also have the Apple Extreme router and I am looking to upgrade to something that can carry a stronger signal.



#21 easper

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 04:39 PM

I'm with Cheapy on GTA V. I'm sure in part it's because this is the first GTA game I've played (I know, I know), but I'm having a blast. There's just so damn much to do...



#22 Hast

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 04:42 PM

Ya, they are really holding a short term view. This is really just the beginning and based on what Gabe has talked about he expects a good, better, best scenario. 

 

When you consider a longer timespan (5+ years or so) I think it also becomes interesting to start considering what type of PCs we might have then. We are already getting to a point where most people don't need to upgrade their computers because there is only so much power you can use for mail and internet browsing.

 

At that point ideas like in house streaming and custom gaming rigs may be a lot more interesting. (I'd love to put my big noisy PC in a closet and just stream games from it to any laptop/tablet or whatever I'm using at the moment.)



#23 trip1eX

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 05:03 PM

lol at Wombat's flower hippie STeambox analogy.  Exactly!

 

And yep networking streaming isn't going to work good enough.   You need to do something custom like Nintendo did with WiFi Direct on the WiiU.  And even then the WiiU gamepad only works in the same room or maybe the adjacent room.  The Wii U gamepad, so far, is the only streaming device that works as good as playing directly on the machine itself in my experience.

 

The only saving grace for Steambox, that I can see, is it has a chance to exploit the advantages of being the first real digital download only console.     From the customer side lower game prices are possible.   From the publisher side your costs are going to be lower so more profit on a same priced digital download. Plus if the platform is more open you can have more direct contact with the consumer.  You can issue a patch in a day without going through rigorous testing.  Also more business models are possible.  You don't have to sell consumers the whole $60 game.  You can sell it in chunks.  You can divide out multiplayer from single player.

 

But then I remember the large variety of machines that STeam touts and I think this will just confuse customers and hassle developers and it is difficult to see SteamBox initiative  succeeding based on what we know so far.



#24 trip1eX

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 05:53 PM

Cheapie is worried about Kinect?  Kinect was always going to be doomed.  I'd be surprised if it doesn't come out of the nextbox by next xmas.  

 

Consumers just bought Kinect,  I think they had their wii bit of fun with it, they rocked out with it ala Guitar Hero,  and refining it a bit isn't going to bring a new wow factor to consumers.  The initial wow of using the tech is what made it fun.  It's like going to a 3d movie for the first time.  So cool the first time around because you are all amazed at the tech.  But the next time around ....meh.  IF the 3d in your movie is slightly improved 3 years later it isn't enough.  20 years later when everyone forgets about 3d, and -10 yr olds are now 10 yrs old and the tech makes a 20 yr leap....then.....maybe .....it is time to try again.

 

Next you have the way 3rd parties work.  They like multi-platform.  They don't like to spend resources on exclusive features.  And so they usually end up with lip service features and shovelware exclusives.  Trying not to be cynical here.  That's just what happens.

 

These guys all rushed in to release shovelware for Kinect like they did for the Wii and then looked at their sales and won't make another Kinect game without Money Hats folded up and slid under their doors.  

 

Then the motion control itself has some inherent problems whether it is Kinect or the Wiimote.  It will never match the Jedi sword fighting experience that so many have ingrained into their brains.  Not anytime soon.  Not this gen or next.  ....Maybe some far off distance in the future that your great great great great grandkids will experience.  But right now it is fraught with limitations that 3 yrs of refinement aren't going to get rid of.

 

So not sure what there is to worry about except ever thinking it had a chance.  ;)



#25 shipwreck

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 05:58 PM

That Baller Beats though.

Cheapie is worried about Kinect? Kinect was always going to be doomed. I'd be surprised if it doesn't come out of the nextbox by next xmas.

Consumers just bought Kinect, I think they had their wii bit of fun with it, they rocked out with it ala Guitar Hero, and refining it a bit isn't going to bring a new wow factor to consumers. The initial wow of using the tech is what made it fun. It's like going to a 3d movie for the first time. So cool the first time around because you are all amazed at the tech. But the next time around ....meh. IF the 3d in your movie is slightly improved 3 years later it isn't enough. 20 years later when everyone forgets about 3d, and -10 yr olds are now 10 yrs old and the tech makes a 20 yr leap....then.....maybe .....it is time to try again.

Next you have the way 3rd parties work. They like multi-platform. They don't like to spend resources on exclusive features. And so they usually end up with lip service features and shovelware exclusives. Trying not to be cynical here. That's just what happens.

These guys all rushed in to release shovelware for Kinect like they did for the Wii and then looked at their sales and won't make another Kinect game without Money Hats folded up and slid under their doors.

Then the motion control itself has some inherent problems whether it is Kinect or the Wiimote. It will never match the Jedi sword fighting experience that so many have ingrained into their brains. Not anytime soon. Not this gen or next. ....Maybe some far off distance in the future that your great great great great grandkids will experience. But right now it is fraught with limitations that 3 yrs of refinement aren't going to get rid of.

So not sure what there is to worry about except ever thinking it had a chance. ;)


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#26 thorbahn3

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 06:37 PM

This last year reminds me of the mid 90's when all these dud systems and gimmicks came out. Virtual Boy, Jaguar, 3DO, 32X, etc.


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#27 Hast

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 07:21 PM

And yep networking streaming isn't going to work good enough.  ...

 

The only saving grace for Steambox, that I can see, is it has a chance to exploit the advantages of being the first real digital download only console.

If you have an ethernet cable to your Steam Machine I recon you can get good gaming out of it. And sure, many won't have that. But I'd say that getting an ethernet cable somewhere is a lot easier than getting HDMI. (HDMI cables tend to be more cumbersome and don't work as well over long distances.)

 

Regarding the success of the Steam Machines I really think it's a mistake to consider this to only be one launch of devices. The goal from Valve and manufacturers is likely to have this be a continuing push in the future. Basically if you buy a new PC which can be used for gaming you will get a USB stick or partition with SteamOS installed.

 

And since it's Linux you can boot and run it from a USB stick if you want. With a fast USB3 stick it will probably even be pretty good. (Better than HDD.)



#28 hunterny77

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 07:22 PM

"The peanut butter is not gonna sell jelly, the jelly will sell the peanut butter"


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#29 Curufinwe

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 07:41 PM

The Crunchwrap Supreme is good.


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#30 trip1eX

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 07:57 PM

If you have an ethernet cable to your Steam Machine I recon you can get good gaming out of it. And sure, many won't have that. But I'd say that getting an ethernet cable somewhere is a lot easier than getting HDMI.
 


Well I have a 360 as a WMC extender over a gigabit wired network and the menus aren't as responsive as using WMC directly on the computer. It does the job in this case because it is menu selection. But for gaming this slight delay wouldn't cut it.

Besides, as you alluded to, the idea of hard wired Ethernet networks being a solution is moot when most don't have that in their home.





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