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CAGcast #344: Outroar!

cagcast podcast shipwreck wombat cheapyd ps4 xbox one

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#31 BlueRock

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 07:58 AM

I don't get why Cheapy spends so much time on the streaming aspects. Everything can stream. Yes, consoles can stream too. It seems like it would be hard to convince someone to buy a console just to stream stuff when they can stream on their tablet, phone, Roku/AppleTV, Smart TV and last-gen consoles already. Oh, and their computer. And maybe their cable box (TiVo).

 

Will they stream on a console? Maybe. But will they buy one to stream? Probably not. So I think that's why Sony isn't talking about the video streaming aspects. Microsoft has more reason to since they have a differentiating feature with the HDMI in port and cable box control. You can't get that on your 7 other devices.



#32 Uncle Milkshake

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 01:22 PM

Thanks for reading my question on the show! 

Last week, I got to try out the Xbox One at a Microsoft Store (controller felt too light; the demo was for Killer Instinct, which looked current gen) and the PS4 at GameStop (solid controller, the new FIFA looked nice).

 

Surprisingly, the Xbox One kiosk at GameStop was not playable. The console was in a display case hooked up to a TV that played a looping video. 



#33 KaCeX

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 02:42 PM

Since Shipwreck says he's always right, will Shipwreck take a run for Pachter's money?

 

Just kidding...

 

As Engineer myself I don't see a problem with having a power supply inside the machine, TVs have them inside and they work just fine even with those bright screens generating extra heat and Smart TVs have processors as well... The Steam Machines may have the power supply inside as well...

 

Have you seen the Xbone vs PS4 size comparison? Thoughts?

 

2q0klsx.jpg



#34 shipwreck

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 02:56 PM

Since Shipwreck says he's always right, will Shipwreck take a run for Pachter's money?

 

Just kidding...

 

As Engineer myself I don't see a problem with having a power supply inside the machine, TVs have them inside and they work just fine even with those bright screens generating extra heat and Smart TVs have processors as well... The Steam Machines may have the power supply inside as well...

 

Have you seen the Xbone vs PS4 size comparison? Thoughts?

 

2q0klsx.jpg

I think they will both fit fine under my TV.


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#35 BlueRock

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 03:42 PM

Yeah, I don't see Shipwreck's qualms about the power supply in the PS4. I'm sure Sony did the math. How many helicopters with external power supplies has Shipwreck designed? And where's the power supply on his PCPCPC?

 

The only qualm I would have is it makes the power supply tougher to replace if it breaks. But that's probably more than made up for by the cost savings of having only one unit and one fan and the fact that you will replace power supplies on less than 100% of units. If you save $1 putting the power supply internal but it adds $25 to the cost of fixing it when the power supply breaks, you still come out ahead as long as less than 4% of units need new power supplies under warranty.



#36 trip1eX

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 04:02 PM

Yeah, I don't see Shipwreck's qualms about the power supply in the PS4. I'm sure Sony did the math. How many helicopters with external power supplies has Shipwreck designed? And where's the power supply on his PCPCPC?

 

The only qualm I would have is it makes the power supply tougher to replace if it breaks. But that's probably more than made up for by the cost savings of having only one unit and one fan and the fact that you will replace power supplies on less than 100% of units. If you save $1 putting the power supply internal but it adds $25 to the cost of fixing it when the power supply breaks, you still come out ahead as long as less than 4% of units need new power supplies under warranty.

 

Exactly.  And which console last gen had major reliability issues - the one with the internal power supply or the one with the external supply?  



#37 trip1eX

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 04:05 PM

 

 

2q0klsx.jpg

 

Wowza.  The X1 needs to get in touch with Jenny Craig.   Plus it has an external PS right?  

 

You can see the strength of Sony in this picture.  MS's strength is software.



#38 Curufinwe

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 04:18 PM

Exactly.  And which console last gen had major reliability issues - the one with the internal power supply or the one with the external supply?  

 

I would still rather have an external power supply.  I just recently had an issue where it seemed like my Wii was dead but by totally unplugging the external power supply for a couple of minutes I was able to fix it.

 

The PS4 definitely looks cooler and more of an engineering marvel, but the space I have under my TV is way bigger than the Xbone so its size is a non-issue to me.


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#39 peoples204

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 05:05 PM

hey guys great show. I don't understand how people can be so close minded when a person states an opinion that is contrary to their own. Yes it can be said that each of you guys can favor a system over another(i.e. cheapy with pc) but i don't have any issue with these favoritisms because you guys reach em after stating all the facts that are currently present in a said subject. Its all right to form an opinion on your perception of facts as long as all the facts are clearly and unbiasedly presented such as how you guys continually do. so f the fanboys
Also when it comes to any hardware launches it is always(as i have seen with iPhones,consoles,ext)to be expected that some will experience some sort of hardware issue. the over zealous fan is always the one to suffer from these unforeseeable malfunctions cause they are too anxious to wait until the wrinkles are ironed out. I do think that there is only so much a company can prepare for in a controlled environment and that the real world will always throw a curve ball. Thats why I'm gonna wait a while until i ultimately get both. Stay safe and keep gaming


#40 BlueRock

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 05:59 PM

Now shipwreck is full of hot air.

 

Okay, that was a cheap shot, I admit it. But let me explain this to you as an engineer.

 

The 111F air coming out of the back of your PS4 is because the idea of modern cooling system design is to design your system so that the air coming out of the system is as hot as possible.

 

What, what? Did he really say that? Yep.

 

See, when you are talking about heating up and cooling, the key really is the total amount of heat generated and moved out of the box. The heat generated isn't controllable by the cooling system (not by much), it's just the amount of energy taken from the wall turned directly into heat. The key is how you get it out.

 

One way is to exhaust a fixed amount of air and the air temperature changes depending on how much heat there is to take out. You have to pick an amount of air (fan speed) which is enough air for even the most demanding (hottest) situations. The problem with this is the fan is going full blast all the time and for a system which dissipates 150W, full blast is going to be noticeably loud. This is why this is the "old way"of doing it.

 

The new way is to pick a temperature of air to exhaust and then exhaust a differing amount of air depending on how much heat you have to take out. The good part of this is that the fan is running at less than full bore when full cooling isn't needed. This is quieter and it actually takes less energy (which is just more heat you have to exhaust). So how do you pick a temperature? Well in a system of convective cooling the rate of cooling is based upon the difference between the temperate of the thing you are cooling and ambient. And for a given amount of heat to dissipate the amount of air needed goes down the higher you make the exhaust air.

 

So you pick a temperature the internal components are rated at and a temperature of air that is as high as possible but considered acceptable. And then you adjust the system to adjust up the airflow if the exhaust air is too hot or the internal components are too hot.

 

So Sony picked 45C for the exhaust air, which is 113F. That's why shipwreck measures 111F at the back of his unit.

 

But in the end, the exhaust temperature being higher doesn't indicate a problem putting this in an enclosed space, because you aren't measuring the volume of air too. It's really the input electricity that indicates how much this will heat up in an enclosed space. And well, it uses 150W, it's going to be about as intolerant of being in an enclosed space as the original Xbox 360 and PS3s were. My customized Ikea cabinet with active cooling which did a lot of work cooling my PS3 and original 360 but hasn't had much work to do lately will be working harder again with the PS4 on in there.



#41 shipwreck

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 07:06 PM

BlueRock, I don't disagree with anything you say there. I don't think there is a heat issue at this point, it just makes more sense to me to eliminate the possibility by making that power supply external. I see the size and feel the heat. That's all.
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#42 maxiell

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 07:34 PM

enjoyed your stint on this week's 8-4 play Cheapy

#43 trip1eX

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 11:28 PM

I would still rather have an external power supply. I just recently had an issue where it seemed like my Wii was dead but by totally unplugging the external power supply for a couple of minutes I was able to fix it.


except that has nothing to with internal or external ps.

#44 trip1eX

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 11:45 PM

BlueRock, I don't disagree with anything you say there. I don't think there is a heat issue at this point, it just makes more sense to me to eliminate the possibility by making that power supply external. I see the size and feel the heat. That's all.

The heat you feel is from gpu. And it is not necessarily bad to feel heat. I would say, in this case. it is good. It means the heat is leaving the console. The amt of heat is just a reflection of how powerful and power hungry these next-gen gpus are.

And remember the 360 pumps out lots of heat for its generation despite an external ps.

#45 Jasper Kazai

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 03:05 AM

I think Mass Effect is a solid choice for best franchise introduced in this gen. In fact, I think it's the only series of its caliber that I've played all games of (only talking about this gen). I definitely enjoy that series. Yeah, the ending was BS, but I don't hold it against the entirety of the series. I still have yet to play the extended cut or whatever it's called.

Another choice I'd consider is Assassin's Creed... however, I never played 1. (Saw all of it in a let's play, though... well, they weren't called "let's plays" back when I watched it.) I also haven't played III yet or IV. And I only just finished Revelations a couple of days ago. So I've only played half of the available games (and not even counting the Vita title), but I still would consider it a choice. Lots of people hate on AC, but I've enjoyed almost every aspect of it when I play it. Yes, the story is a contrived mess, but really only the "real-world" Desmond parts. The historical parts of it are pretty solid, IMO. (Again, I can't speak for III or IV yet.) I can appreciate for what it is and not care too much. I guess it gets too repetitive for most people, but it doesn't bother me.

 

Anyways, that was somewhat off topic. I guess I'll pile on the power supply gangbang here and say I disagree with Shipwreck; I do not like external power supplies like the 360 has. They take up too much space for my liking.



#46 BlueRock

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 04:29 AM

ME isn't my choice for best game/IP this gen, simply because I didn't like the contorted way people who live and die at the end of 2 worked. And they had the gall to try to sell me on the idea that I would be thrilled to continue playing in 3 with my save even though the characters I wanted to play with were dead. Oh, yeah, and the "sell you the ending" aspect where you couldn't see the good (synthesis) ending in 3 if hadn't bought any previous games in the series and didn't have a project ten dollar code.

 

But I do agree it was a significant series and I can see why a lot of people would pick it.

 

So I guess I'd say Uncharted. But that's kind of a default. I really should think about it more.

 

It might be Rockband.



#47 CheapyD

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 04:29 AM

I don't get why Cheapy spends so much time on the streaming aspects. Everything can stream. Yes, consoles can stream too. It seems like it would be hard to convince someone to buy a console just to stream stuff when they can stream on their tablet, phone, Roku/AppleTV, Smart TV and last-gen consoles already. Oh, and their computer. And maybe their cable box (TiVo).
 
Will they stream on a console? Maybe. But will they buy one to stream? Probably not. So I think that's why Sony isn't talking about the video streaming aspects. Microsoft has more reason to since they have a differentiating feature with the HDMI in port and cable box control. You can't get that on your 7 other devices.

 

Show a non-gamer this video and let me know what they think:



#48 lowgear26

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 04:34 AM

I know you will mention the amount of PS4 failures in the next Cagcast. Please do everyone a favor and be extra happy sounding for all the people that call you Microsoft shills.

 

On a serious note, the PS4 launch seems terrible with the amount of hardware failures and bad customer support (Based on the Sony Forums). Do you think this could knock some wind out of their sails if there are as many bad consoles as there seem to be?


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#49 BlueRock

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 05:04 AM

I don't get it. What are non-gamers supposed to be amazed with? First of all, 3/4ths of the video is gaming, which I'm sure you realize non-gamers aren't going to be impressed with.

 

Should they be amazed that they can Skype on a TV? You can Skype on a Samsung Smart TV already.

 

What that leaves is the HDMI in feature (with guide), that I already mentioned. Yeah, it's a differentiating feature for MS. So yeah, they talk about it, as they should. Will it really have a big impact on anyone? I don't know yet, it's not even out yet. It could be a big deal. MS sure thinks so, adding that HDMI in port cannot have helped their $500 cost. So they think it will be big. We'll all know for sure in a while.

 

It again goes back to what I said. All the non-gamers I know already have plenty of devices to watch TV on and to stream TV on. They're not going to blow $500 just to watch TV or stream TV on an Xbox One. You show that video to some non-gamers and tell them all this can be theirs for $500 and see what answer you get back.

 

The first use of those features will be by gamers who paid the $500 mostly to game. We'll see how much they like it and if they evangelize the viewing features to others well enough to make non-gamers matter from a sales perspective.



#50 CheapyD

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 11:21 AM

I don't get it. What are non-gamers supposed to be amazed with? First of all, 3/4ths of the video is gaming, which I'm sure you realize non-gamers aren't going to be impressed with.

Just do it and get back to me, please. ;)

In fact, would love to hear from more of our listeners who give this a try.



#51 Curufinwe

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 04:30 PM

except that has nothing to with internal or external ps.

 

You can't totally disconnect the power supply from the console if it's internal.  Not without opening it up.


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#52 BlueRock

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 05:14 PM

Just do it and get back to me, please. ;)

In fact, would love to hear from more of our listeners who give this a try.

 

I'm not going to make a non-gamer friend watch a 13 minute video when I know they won't even get to either of the two parts they care about because even the first one is over 6 minutes in.

 

[edit: I actually did sent it to two people now, we'll see what happens]

 

If I do end up showing it to non-gamers, I'll be sure to mention it is $500 and see if they're interested.

 

DirecTV and Comcast already have voice control for their cable boxes here in the US since early 2013, and they aren't setting the twitters ablaze, at least not yet.

 

Here's an example:

 

 

(no voice demo in that vid, but they do have it)

 

I'm sure it's not as good as MS' UI, even if it looks similar viscerally. They are a cable company after all. But remember it also comes at no additional charge.

 

Again, I'm not saying MS' media features aren't good. I'm not saying people won't use them. What I'm saying is it's virtually impossible to sell someone a $500 Xbox One based upon media features. They're going to have to want to game on it and want to do so pretty badly given the price. So Sony is concentrating their marketing on gaming, and MS is too.

 

Maybe later we'll see that change, especially as the price of the units comes down. And the software will keep getting better and better too, and we're going to get a lot more content over IP, which the box can tune natively, and less through your cable box, which requires MS' backpack (HDMI in) solution.



#53 Thomas96

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 01:58 PM

Show a non-gamer this video and let me know what they think:

I'm going to show my brother he doesn't game at all. I hate to show him this ugly windows 8 U.I.
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#54 BlueRock

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 06:00 PM

This is not going as well as I thought. People aren't really taking me showing them the video in the spirit I intend. Two so far have watched it and said "I don't want an Xbox" which isn't really taking it in the spirit intended. I'm telling them to evaluate the experience and they are whining about the brand. And most aren't gamers, they just have a preconceived notion of MS. Although one I had figured as a non-gamer seems to think he is because he took the time to basically recap the current console war garbage.

 

One person told me that $60/year (the price I gave for Live) was a good deal "for all that content". He thought he'd be getting ESPN for $60/year, I had to tell him that this was on top of his cable bill and that turned him right off.

 

I showed one of my friends "in the biz" and he said that if this system requires integrating with your cable box (which it does for control), then it may just be dead in the water. The cable companies aren't interested in being disintermediated from their customers. They see their crappy cable boxes as their own pipe for pushing content they charge for and they aren't thrilled to have someone else put their own UI up which undoes all that. You can think of this as the "TiVo problem". I don't know if this kind of thing is a problem in Japan, but it's huge in the US. The cable companies have a lot of power, you're relatively lucky if they simply don't help you, if they really see you as a threat they would just keep changing how their cable box works so that the Xbox integration fouls up.

 

It would suck to see a technology fail due to something other than merit. But it also wouldn't be the first time. Companies can be shaq-fuers.



#55 KillerRamen

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 07:04 PM

I still have a hard time getting why people would pay $500 for a video game console if they don't play video games so they can watch cable... I mean if they're tech savvy enough to have an Xbox One, then they wouldn't have cable. 


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#56 S0LIDARITY

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 09:42 PM

I just want to point out that anyone bashing CheapyD for his tastes in consoles needs to realize that he is now worse at using the bathroom than his six year old son, as evidenced by this week's bathroom accident.



#57 thrifty1

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 04:38 AM

I'm good with finishing up platinum trophies, bioshock burial at sea, castlevania collection and metal gear solid collection. Pretty happy with my decision to cancel the ps4.

 

Cheapy nails it when he says most interested in seeing the features of new consoles. that's how i feel. I don't care for the launch titles, but i really want to see how the streaming to twitch works etc.

 

Big thanks to the CAGs who pointed out the 20% off games via the new best buy GCU program which i was already a member of from last year. I managed to preorder 2 games with the discount. im going to check and see if the discount stacks with black friday prices which would be AMAZING.

 

Shipwreck nailed it when he says people will think twice. i have the EXACT same feeling with games on my vita. i probably would have bought more vita games if my 16gb card wasnt so fully loaded. my ps3 on the otherhand has a 1tb drive installed so i just download EVERYTHING onto it. they REALLY need to give us better options for the hard drive with the ps4. it's win win for both parties...

 

There will always be outrage over scores because what is good for one person is not good for another person. same deal for the differences between ps4, xb1 and pc. all depends on the type of player. i don't want to hear the number although the number can be helpful to point out your knacks.

 

Call of duty didnt make a billion in a day!!! They shipped 1 billion to retailers.  GTA V sold 1 billion to customers in 1 day. They said sold to retailers on purpose to create that type of confusion. Ghosts didnt outsell their previous version of the game and GTA still holds all the records.

http://www.mirror.co...s-sales-2786720

Basically everyone is waiting for next gen versions for these types of games and not everyone will be getting the console right away.

 

good show as always. bonus points for jeebus.



#58 trip1eX

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 07:54 PM

You can't totally disconnect the power supply from the console if it's internal.  Not without opening it up.

 

Yes and....?  Do you think an internal power supply has enough power when not plugged in to power your console or something? 



#59 trip1eX

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 09:12 PM

Just do it and get back to me, please. ;)

In fact, would love to hear from more of our listeners who give this a try.

 

 

Well they aren't going to hate it if that's what you are looking for.  But they aren't going to go out and pay $500 for it either.  Or $400.  Or $300.

 

I mean who isn't going to like the fantasy of talking to your device or it recognizing you when you walk in?  Probably nobody.  But is that what we are getting?  Yes and No.  Yes were are getting that.  No it won't work as well as the fantasy.

 

The video actually convinced me more than ever that these extra features aren't going to be big selling points.

 

The TV guide experience doesn't seem appreciably better than tv guide experience on a cable/satellite box.  Most cable/satellite companies have ipad/iphone apps at this point for making that experience better too.  And I am skeptical of relying on voice to control a tv guide.  It also seems slow to use voice.  

 

Now what would be useful is if my wife wanted to watch a particular show and boom, the newest episode she hadn't seen yet would be up and playing as part of our cable subscription.  That would be sweet.   But  that ability is probably up to the cable/satellites companies.

 

Skype isn't a selling point to anyone I know.  We call, text or email each other.  I don't think it is a mainstream selling point.  If you use Skype you obviously will feel differently.  The more people you talk to on a regular basis who live overseas or faraway might make you feel differently as well.  I just think those folks are exceptions.  And most of those using Skype are using it because of its low cost.  .And...to buy a $500 box goes against that.  

 

And I can't see internet surfing on a X1 as anything anyone cares about.  Nice to have that option I guess if I need to look up a quick bit of info and my phone is across the room.   But I can't imagine it wooing anybody to buy an X1.

 

Last the app switching for those with ADD was a bit much.  Sure I like that switching between apps  is prompt.  But ...I guess it is expected now when we have had that on our phones for years now and pcs for even longer.  But, where  I might quickly switch in and out of apps on the phone or pc, I don't see the need on a console nearly as much.  What is really needed for non-gamers is the ability to switch channels more quickly.  



#60 BlueRock

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 09:50 PM

Just to add to the mess, I think Skype is a selling point for some people. Some families video chat the grandparents weekly. Some (many) of those use Skype to do it. Personally, I use Skype (or Facetime) like a phone call. Person-to-person. I would no more want to use my TV to make a Skype call than I would to use it to make a phone call. But for families that get together this way, using the TV would be great both for watching (big screen) and transmitting (wide field of view camera).

 

But I just don't know how big a percentage of families that is, and how many of them don't already have a workable solution for this and this would buy a $500 unit (plus $60/year) to do it.

 

The app switching I'll just have to give time. It seems mostly useless to me (I'll just run my apps on my iPad and thus I just turn my head to "switch"). But it's also the kind of thing which opens new possibilities and thus might bring solutions I can't envision yet. So it could be a big deal or nothing. Only way to tell is to wait.