ME Supreme Court Rules Transgender Students Can Use Bathroom of Preference
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as someone whom has a relative that is transgender as well as someone whom is in a graduate program for clinical mental health counseling, I think this is a step in the right direction. Too many kids in the LGBT community have to deal with discrimination and bullying.
Times are changing and it is important as a society that we help embrace change for those that are different than us.
Times are changing and it is important as a society that we help embrace change for those that are different than us.
So separate but equal, in regards to bathroom and changing facilities is discrimination? Why not just have one large gender neutral bathroom/locker room?
from a mental health standpoint, TG folk just want to be accepted for who they are, not subjected to different rules than what would apply to those of that gender.
as for a gender neutral locker room, there is a shit load of logistics and red tape that would probably drive school districts insane involved with that.
It seems to me that countries that expose their "people" to alcohol at a younger age then say the U.S. at 21 have a lower incidence of alcoholism. Perhaps if we weren't such prudes here in the U.S. then we would have fewer crimes tied to sexual aggression or exploitation.
I really could care less about the ruling as the ruling itself doesn't effect me but this part was interesting:
That is an interesting point you highlighted from the article.
I found the whole issue of transgender kind of hard to discuss in a class it was presented in last semester, as I have no idea of what those folks go through. But you make an interesting analogy, that "exposure" (theres a bad pun in here) may help curb crimes, and to further the discussion, potential hate crimes and discrimination.
thanks for the topic post, going to bring this up with my prof next week.
Me either.
At the risk of sounding like an uneducated bigot by drawing wild parallels I don't understand why today we can accept that someone born a man, and who is physically a man based on their sex organ, hormones, chromosomes etc. can legally be defined as women based on their perception of themselves (an idea that would have seemed unthinkable 100 years ago) but a human being can't be accepted as say a feline if that is what they perceive themselves to be.
I know the comparison is silly but where do we draw the line? Their are certifiable conditions where people love inanimate objects, animals etc. Certainly there are conditions where they identify as those things?
well, i suppose there are folks that identify as other creatures (i think of a person in some documentary that has tattoos like a leopard and actual whiskers as well as their teeth are sharpened like fangs). and there is always that story about the person who ate too much LSD and now thinks they are a glass of orange juice.
honestly, i can only direct you to a piece on 20/20 that was about children whom are transgender. I would post the link, but i am on my phone. its interesting in how they examine what TG folks go through and insights on how that might come about. look for it on youtube.
i think it was thomas jefferson who said "if it doesnt break my back or pinch my wallet.." or something like that
I don't care who uses the men's restroom. The men's restroom is disgusting as it is. FtM trannies tend to be chill, also.
But I would think that real women would want some privacy from the wackos that are MtF trannies who have all the perversions that men have and more. Scissors don't cure trannies. It's really as simple as that.
Suffice to say, I'll be voting in favor or repealing the California law that allows this. Let real women decide this.
But I would think that real women would want some privacy from the wackos that are MtF trannies who have all the perversions that men have and more. Scissors don't cure trannies. It's really as simple as that.
Suffice to say, I'll be voting in favor or repealing the California law that allows this. Let real women decide this.
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This story was on the front page of Yahoo! earlier today.... it certainly will have ramifications moving forward for public schools.
I was just most disturbed by this bullshit....
http://news.yahoo.com/maine-court-rules-favor-transgender-pupil-165405315.html
You see age restrictions for things like R-rated movies, tattoos, drinking, voting, smoking, driving but we are allowing a two year old, and even a six year old to decide they are transgender? That is just bad parenting and irresponsible enabling from the medical community.
If someone wants to butcher their body at 18 years old because they suffer from some condition or disease or FUBAR mental state them please let them do that, pay for it out of their own pocket, and I'll support their decision. Maybe DD can tell you how his home state (MA) is using tax payer money to pay for an inmate to have a sex change and take hormones while incarcerated (isn't he a lifer?)
If not being allowed to use the girls bathroom because you have a dong between your legs makes you feel discriminated against... and you use the "statistics say transgender youth commit suicide at a rate exponentially higher (and are more successful) the normal youth" line to support your agenda then I'll be inclined to think that is just a great example of natural selection working and we should continue with the status quo.
Giving access to separate but equal facilities is not discrimination. Possibly making hundreds of regular Jane and John Doe's uncomfortable in each school system because you supported your son's/daughters condition from the age of TWO is just idiotic.
mrsilkunderwear
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So this kid still has a dick but is now using a girl's bathroom? Priceless..
Yeah they've been allowed to do since elementary school. In fact the article states the child was apparently self aware enough to decide that he was a "she" at the early age of two.
The school system went along with it until the transgender student was in 5th grade and another student's grandfather complained about the whole situation (i.e. the transgender "girl" (physical boy) with a penis being allowed to use the girl facilities). The grandfather actually encouraged his grandson to also use the girls bathroom which for good reason the school did not allow (and was kind of a dick move on the grandfather's point)
At that point the school system said the transgender student would have to use the staff facilities. The transgender's family then sued the school district for "discriminating" against their child.
Initially the court decided in the interest of the school but that was overturned this week by a supreme court vote of 5-1. I wonder how much time and money was spent on this case in the last 4 years or so.... millions for special interests is always a good investment...
If someone wants to be or feels they are transgender then I say we support them (I don't think you encourage it at two years old though) and any instance where the kid is harassed or teased should be dealt with on a case by case basis and by all accounts the school system did an absolutely excellent job with that from the pictures that are painted by the newspaper
As far as I'm concerned though it's not violation the students rights by asking them to use a separate but equal bathroom... especially if other students had concerns.
It's only going to get worse.... I remember Denny's (the restaurant) losing a legal case because they would not let a man (customer) use the women's restroom. Apparently this "man" who was dressed in man's clothing, and had a penis, had been seeing a doctor for gender identity issues and it was determined, in court, that Denny's could not legally prevent the man from using the bathroom of the sex they identified as.
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perdition(troy
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To answer the topic question I think it's disgusting and would immediately pull my daughter from the school. There is no way she will deal with that. It's bad enough that I have to think about all the other creeps out there much less ones of the opposite sex trying to use her bathroom.
In high school I would allow this because the students themselves would probably be drunk on tolerance and acceptance and support it. If they want tolerance, give it to them.
But in elementary school? Junior high? Hell no.
mykevermin
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"Real women" is a nice succinct microcosm of some of the issues that trans folks face on a day to day basis.
I don't think for a moment that you meant that phrase with any malice intended, but equating biology as being the market that makes one "real" and the other "fake" (or something similar, where you are implicitly questioning their legitimacy) is fallacious.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa....so biological anatomy is not how we define man from woman now? Are you in favor of just unisex restrooms that everyone uses? That might be the best solution. We are all humans, and how often do you actually see anyone else's privates when using a public restroom.
Real woman = no dick
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mykevermin
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What I'm saying is that the "biological" assignments we identify as making "men" and "women" are arbitrary.
It's tough to think that way if the depth of your intellectualism is a "dick/no dick" binary.
But, like race, the biological characteristics that we identify as relevant markers that determine and influence behavior are as fascinating as those that we ignore as relevant cultural markers. There are, in short, a number of biological characteristics that we consider important and a number that we disregard, ignore, or oversimplify when we reduce biology down to...ahem..."dick or no dick."
It's tough to think that way if the depth of your intellectualism is a "dick/no dick" binary.
But, like race, the biological characteristics that we identify as relevant markers that determine and influence behavior are as fascinating as those that we ignore as relevant cultural markers. There are, in short, a number of biological characteristics that we consider important and a number that we disregard, ignore, or oversimplify when we reduce biology down to...ahem..."dick or no dick."
Some of your comments are just disgusting and reprehensible. I'm reminded of the worry about Gay people in the Military and the fear of them showering with fellow troops(preceeding repeal of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"). The assumption was that Gay men and women are raving sex maniacs and would take the chance of raping a hot, straight man or woman in the shower whenever they could. Same idiots forget there are things called Gyms both Gay and Straight members attend.
Look, I know there are desperate men, maybe some would consider crossdressing to sneak into women's bathrooms. However, those people are few and far between. What makes this story even more ridiculous is the sexual implication involved. Kids 8 and under, for the most part aren't thinking about sex. That girl is looking at the other girls and seeing them for what they are...fellow girls. They consider their crotch a disfigurement, not something to get hard and rape someone in the bathroom with.
Look, I know there are desperate men, maybe some would consider crossdressing to sneak into women's bathrooms. However, those people are few and far between. What makes this story even more ridiculous is the sexual implication involved. Kids 8 and under, for the most part aren't thinking about sex. That girl is looking at the other girls and seeing them for what they are...fellow girls. They consider their crotch a disfigurement, not something to get hard and rape someone in the bathroom with.
What is sick is trying to convince the court of public opinion that your two year old "child" is self aware enough to have gender identity issues.
Should be encouraging any boy who plays with a Barbie at two years old to tuck their penis between their legs and start acting like a girl? Or any girl who plays with GI Joes to start acting like a boy?
It amazes me what an idiot you can be. There's a difference between sexual orientation, that is, who you want to be romantically involved with and what you perceive yourself as genderwise. Gender has to do with a BODY feeling, not something sexual like getting a hard-on or getting wet.
Imagine if you got cut or impaled with a chunk of wood, would you not feel fundamentally off, like something is wrong? That's how Transsexual children feel, like something is wrong. Some may feel it extremely early while others, something feels off but it takes a while to recognize.
I even now kinda hate us using the term gender as you're getting it confused with sexual orientation, lets just call it body. I truly hope this helps clarify it for you.
I'm sorry for calling you an idiot but you can frustrate me at times, being so Conservative talking point bent to the point of indoctrination. Don't get me wrong, I hate MSNBC as much as FOX. One is Pravda and the other Isvetsiya.
Imagine if you got cut or impaled with a chunk of wood, would you not feel fundamentally off, like something is wrong? That's how Transsexual children feel, like something is wrong. Some may feel it extremely early while others, something feels off but it takes a while to recognize.
I even now kinda hate us using the term gender as you're getting it confused with sexual orientation, lets just call it body. I truly hope this helps clarify it for you.
I'm sorry for calling you an idiot but you can frustrate me at times, being so Conservative talking point bent to the point of indoctrination. Don't get me wrong, I hate MSNBC as much as FOX. One is Pravda and the other Isvetsiya.
Maybe some things should be cleared up first. Sex is biological. If you have XX, you are female. If you have XY, you are male. Nothing can change that. There are a few exceptions such as intersex conditions, but, for the most part, everyone is firmly in one of these two categories. Gender, on the other hand, is the perception of one's self as a specific sex. If you are biologically female, but identify as male because you perceive yourself to be, then your gender is male. There really isn't any way to contest that.
Now to my opinion. Restrooms are, as far as I'm aware, not segregated based on gender. Mixed restrooms are considered unisex and not uni-gender. Preferably, all restrooms should be mixed ("separate but equal" is not constitutionally protected for sex, but it should be). As that is not the case, and restrooms are indeed segregated based on sex, I see no reason why a biological male should be using a restroom intended for biological females. The whole point of restroom segregation is separating those with vaginas from those with penises. It really is as simple as that.
And I guess I've gone off a tangent, but gender is an idiotic concept anyway. Societal constructs on how you are supposed to act or feel based on sex are pointless concepts in this day and age.
Now to my opinion. Restrooms are, as far as I'm aware, not segregated based on gender. Mixed restrooms are considered unisex and not uni-gender. Preferably, all restrooms should be mixed ("separate but equal" is not constitutionally protected for sex, but it should be). As that is not the case, and restrooms are indeed segregated based on sex, I see no reason why a biological male should be using a restroom intended for biological females. The whole point of restroom segregation is separating those with vaginas from those with penises. It really is as simple as that.
And I guess I've gone off a tangent, but gender is an idiotic concept anyway. Societal constructs on how you are supposed to act or feel based on sex are pointless concepts in this day and age.
You think a child is self aware enough at two years old to understand they are transgender? And at two years old do you support your child in that endeavor? And do you start asking their daycare provider, elementary school, church, etc. to support your child? Do you sign them up for the girls rec soccer league even though biologically they are a male, and look like a male, and are maturing as a male?
mrsilkunderwear
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If you are sorry for calling someone an idiot then why even do it?
So tell me, a gay man should have a right to use a female bathroom?
Why would he want to? There's no urinals and I'm sure he'd be grossed out by any discussion of menstruation.
Pretty big leap in logic (or lack thereof).
mrsilkunderwear
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So if a person is born the sex of a male, is transgendered female, and wants to be with girls, is that person gay?
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mrsilkunderwear
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I apologize if I was unclear. All I wanted to know is if a gay men should be allowed to use a female bathroom?
So if a person is born the sex of a male, is transgendered female, and wants to be with girls, is that person gay?
willardhaven
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I think a transgender female (born male) who is attracted to women is gay. A heterosexual transgender female would be attracted to men.
Others feel free to correct me if I am mistaken.
Kirin Lemon
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This is correct.
perdition(troy
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i can't help but laugh about the entire premise that is taking place above me.
If we're just going to let people use whichever restroom they want based on how they feel (i.e.: 'gender') instead of how they are built (i.e.: 'sex'), why have different restrooms at all?
You can *prove* someone has a penis or a vagina. Granted, I wouldn't want that job... but that is something that is based off of factual information.
You cannot *prove* how someone feels inside. How do you *prove* someone is really male-sex/female-gender? Are we going to start testing everyone who makes this claim? Do students have to come forward to a teacher or guidance administrator first? That won't be awkward at all. Maybe we should make them wear armbands with a fun little logo so that we know which students are "approved" to use which restroom.
Either base it on something that is a cold, hard fact or don't base it on anything at all.
Truth be told, from what went on in the restrooms when I was in high school, the best solution would be for individual rooms ('stalls', but with closed walls that run from floor to ceiling) big enough for one person with a toilet, toilet paper, a small trash can and a smoke detector. Put the hand-sinks in a community area.
You can *prove* someone has a penis or a vagina. Granted, I wouldn't want that job... but that is something that is based off of factual information.
You cannot *prove* how someone feels inside. How do you *prove* someone is really male-sex/female-gender? Are we going to start testing everyone who makes this claim? Do students have to come forward to a teacher or guidance administrator first? That won't be awkward at all. Maybe we should make them wear armbands with a fun little logo so that we know which students are "approved" to use which restroom.
Either base it on something that is a cold, hard fact or don't base it on anything at all.
Truth be told, from what went on in the restrooms when I was in high school, the best solution would be for individual rooms ('stalls', but with closed walls that run from floor to ceiling) big enough for one person with a toilet, toilet paper, a small trash can and a smoke detector. Put the hand-sinks in a community area.
Is it only chicks with dicks that want to use a female restroom because I couldn't imagine a chick dressing as a dude wanting to go into a mens rooms. As a man I don't even like going to the mens room in public, I could let alone imagine that a chick would want to sit her ass in the mens room.
No, not malice, but I do intend derision. The entire concept of transgender people is something I reject whole-heartedly. I believe in the gender binary and it is better for society to conform to the gender binary.
Not that anyone with gender identity disorder should be harassed or attacked physically. Anyone who does this should be punished under the fullest extend of the law. But at the same time we should not reshape society to fit their needs.
I honestly do not know how the T got into LGBT. I fully support gay marriage and gay rights (while reserving the right to make jokes), but I cannot support the "right" of an individual to use the public restroom of their choice, or to compel by force a female sports league to accept athletes who were born men.
That being said, I believe a private property owner can set up whatever restroom situation they wish. And people can make up sports leagues with any kinds of rules that they wish. I would absolutely encourage transgender people and their allies to set up those institutions on their own. I will avoid them, and I will vote for any proposition in California that preserves the gender binary in public institutions.
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Because we're all together in this. Gay people, both men and women, have faced terrible discrimination. Bisexuals additionally. Sometimes Gay men don't fit exactly into the stereotype of male or women with female. This is how Transgender people fit in. You're Transgender if you like to crossdress or a Drag Queen so you can be Gay and part of the Transgender group. Or you can even be a straight male and be Transgender.
In case I've confused anyone I use the terms Transsexual, Transwomen and Transmen to identify those particular individuals in the Transgender group. I use Transgender for what it has been used as of until recently by those wishing to revise those terms...an umbrella term. That means Transgender includes: Crossdresser(i.e. Transvestite), Drag Queen, Transsexual, etc.
I decry and find disgusting anyone Gay or Bisexual who would throw any Transsexual under the bus or just a TG person in general.
In case I've confused anyone I use the terms Transsexual, Transwomen and Transmen to identify those particular individuals in the Transgender group. I use Transgender for what it has been used as of until recently by those wishing to revise those terms...an umbrella term. That means Transgender includes: Crossdresser(i.e. Transvestite), Drag Queen, Transsexual, etc.
I decry and find disgusting anyone Gay or Bisexual who would throw any Transsexual under the bus or just a TG person in general.
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perdition(troy
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What discrimination have they faced? People think its weird and look at them funny?
mykevermin
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Hegemony's a comfy blanket, isn't it?
How crass and crude. You can't get through your daily life without needing to affirm the seat of privilege you sit from, yet did nothing to earn? Poor form.
The reduction of transgender issues to mere restroom selection, as if it is a thing that can be chosen at random (i.e., you see to think that trans individuals pick a women's room at 1PM, men's room at 5PM, and women's room at 11PM). That's the fundamental thing you don't grasp about transgender identity - you seem to think there's a temporal flexibility that is (mis)used at the convenience of a person who is multiple genders. Not only is the "multiple genders" item incorrect, the flexibility is your imposition, and not reality in the slightest.
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Myke is back baby yeeessssss!Hegemony's a comfy blanket, isn't it?
How crass and crude. You can't get through your daily life without needing to affirm the seat of privilege you sit from, yet did nothing to earn? Poor form.
The reduction of transgender issues to mere restroom selection, as if it is a thing that can be chosen at random (i.e., you see to think that trans individuals pick a women's room at 1PM, men's room at 5PM, and women's room at 11PM). That's the fundamental thing you don't grasp about transgender identity - you seem to think there's a temporal flexibility that is (mis)used at the convenience of a person who is multiple genders. Not only is the "multiple genders" item incorrect, the flexibility is your imposition, and not reality in the slightest.
Quote by myke: "
The reduction of transgender issues to mere restroom selection, as if it is a thing that can be chosen at random (i.e., you see to think that trans individuals pick a women's room at 1PM, men's room at 5PM, and women's room at 11PM). That's the fundamental thing you don't grasp about transgender identity - you seem to think there's a temporal flexibility that is (mis)used at the convenience of a person who is multiple genders. Not only is the "multiple genders" item incorrect, the flexibility is your imposition, and not reality in the slightest."
The reality is either you have a dick, or you don't.
The reduction of transgender issues to mere restroom selection, as if it is a thing that can be chosen at random (i.e., you see to think that trans individuals pick a women's room at 1PM, men's room at 5PM, and women's room at 11PM). That's the fundamental thing you don't grasp about transgender identity - you seem to think there's a temporal flexibility that is (mis)used at the convenience of a person who is multiple genders. Not only is the "multiple genders" item incorrect, the flexibility is your imposition, and not reality in the slightest."
The reality is either you have a dick, or you don't.
Not uh! There is like .00001% of the population that might been more with a genital defect, or has both, or something... and we should all conform to their needs... or something... and spend money... or something.
mykevermin
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I directly addressed your argument. I'm disappointed that you do not elect to do the same.
(Howdy, IRHari.)
When dealing with feelings, how can any kind of administration (school, business, legal, etc.) prove that an individual isn't abusing such a loophole?
What would one propose the punishment be for someone proven to be abusing this loophole?
Again, doesn't matter to me... You can't tell if the person in the stall next to you is a homosexual man trying to peek at your junk or a straight female dressed as a man trying to peek at your junk (in reality, 99.99999% of them are just folks trying to take a dump) - so, does it really matter?
If you're going to make the designation, then it should be on something that is actually determinate.
What would one propose the punishment be for someone proven to be abusing this loophole?
Again, doesn't matter to me... You can't tell if the person in the stall next to you is a homosexual man trying to peek at your junk or a straight female dressed as a man trying to peek at your junk (in reality, 99.99999% of them are just folks trying to take a dump) - so, does it really matter?
If you're going to make the designation, then it should be on something that is actually determinate.
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Actually you were replying to Spokker. My argument is that bathrooms are separated by types of genitalia, plain and simple. If you are born with both, then use the bathroom that correlates to the genitalia that you have that functions. If both function, use the men's room because you have a dick.
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Not sure if this adds anything at all to the thread, but I spent a little over a month in the Philippines for work, and as a very conservative Catholic country, they are also exceptionally open about homosexuality and the T,B, LMNOPs of the world. They simply refer to everyone who is not of one sex attracted to the other, as "bakla"-gay. Nobody is offended, they actually live in tremendous respect of one another, and many, many folks elect to dress up as the opposite sex, or even have surgery to make it happen. When it comes to which bathroom to use, if you've got a wiener, you're peeing with the boys, lady parts, you're peeing with the girls.
I know this, because at one point I was entering the work bathroom as a woman walked out, and I almost changed bathrooms thinking I misread the sign (only to later learn from the supervisor, that the "she" was a bakla).
I say let the adults start using whichever potty makes them feel like more of a man/woman but at the HS and under age, let the kids use the genital appropriate bathrooms. The first time a school district is sued because little Suzy got knocked up in the girls bathroom by her boyfriend Johnny, who was trans-curious 15 minutes before he selected that bathroom, then we'll see the pendulum swing the opposite direction, and we'll get back to children being told which bathroom they need to use, regardless of how that makes them feel.
I know this, because at one point I was entering the work bathroom as a woman walked out, and I almost changed bathrooms thinking I misread the sign (only to later learn from the supervisor, that the "she" was a bakla).
I say let the adults start using whichever potty makes them feel like more of a man/woman but at the HS and under age, let the kids use the genital appropriate bathrooms. The first time a school district is sued because little Suzy got knocked up in the girls bathroom by her boyfriend Johnny, who was trans-curious 15 minutes before he selected that bathroom, then we'll see the pendulum swing the opposite direction, and we'll get back to children being told which bathroom they need to use, regardless of how that makes them feel.
Enough with tying everything transgender with everything homosexual. I'm absolutely open about homosexuality in the sense that I am not offended by graphic descriptions of it and I support gay marriage and gay rights and all that crap.
Homosexuality is not a mental illness. There is nothing to feel uncomfortable about. Gender identity disorder, on the other hand, is a mental disorder, and if I ever had to deal with these issues in real life it would make me insanely uncomfortable, so much so that I would remove myself from the situation entirely.
Homophobic? Hell no. Transphobic? Hell yes, and not ashamed. The idea of gay sex doesn't make me nauseous like the idea of a gender reassignment surgery does. It's madness. It's quackery.
Yes, let's all be like the Phillipines.
Homosexuality is not a mental illness. There is nothing to feel uncomfortable about. Gender identity disorder, on the other hand, is a mental disorder, and if I ever had to deal with these issues in real life it would make me insanely uncomfortable, so much so that I would remove myself from the situation entirely.
Homophobic? Hell no. Transphobic? Hell yes, and not ashamed. The idea of gay sex doesn't make me nauseous like the idea of a gender reassignment surgery does. It's madness. It's quackery.
Yes, let's all be like the Phillipines.
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mykevermin
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What's your opinion on big, beautiful, fake titties?
bread's done