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ME Supreme Court Rules Transgender Students Can Use Bathroom of Preference


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#31 Kirin Lemon

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 07:18 AM

I think a transgender female (born male) who is attracted to women is gay. A heterosexual transgender female would be attracted to men.

Others feel free to correct me if I am mistaken.


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#32 irideabike

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 02:08 PM

i can't help but laugh about the entire premise that is taking place above me.


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#33 UncleBob

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 04:43 PM

If we're just going to let people use whichever restroom they want based on how they feel (i.e.: 'gender') instead of how they are built (i.e.: 'sex'), why have different restrooms at all?

 

You can *prove* someone has a penis or a vagina.  Granted, I wouldn't want that job... but that is something that is based off of factual information.

 

You cannot *prove* how someone feels inside.  How do you *prove* someone is really male-sex/female-gender?  Are we going to start testing everyone who makes this claim?  Do students have to come forward to a teacher or guidance administrator first?  That won't be awkward at all.  Maybe we should make them wear armbands with a fun little logo so that we know which students are "approved" to use which restroom.

 

Either base it on something that is a cold, hard fact or don't base it on anything at all.

 

Truth be told, from what went on in the restrooms when I was in high school, the best solution would be for individual rooms ('stalls', but with closed walls that run from floor to ceiling) big enough for one person with a toilet, toilet paper, a small trash can and a smoke detector.  Put the hand-sinks in a community area.


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#34 egofed

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 11:35 PM

Good post, Bob. I was going to type something almost exactly like it. Observable facts trump feelings every time.

#35 skiizim

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 04:02 AM

Is it only chicks with dicks that want to use a female restroom because I couldn't imagine a chick dressing as a dude wanting to go into a mens rooms. As a man I don't even like going to the mens room in public, I could let alone imagine that a chick would want to sit her ass in the mens room.



#36 Spokker

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 05:32 AM

"Real women" is a nice succinct microcosm of some of the issues that trans folks face on a day to day basis.
 
I don't think for a moment that you meant that phrase with any malice intended, but equating biology as being the market that makes one "real" and the other "fake" (or something similar, where you are implicitly questioning their legitimacy) is fallacious.

No, not malice, but I do intend derision. The entire concept of transgender people is something I reject whole-heartedly. I believe in the gender binary and it is better for society to conform to the gender binary.

Not that anyone with gender identity disorder should be harassed or attacked physically. Anyone who does this should be punished under the fullest extend of the law. But at the same time we should not reshape society to fit their needs.

I honestly do not know how the T got into LGBT. I fully support gay marriage and gay rights (while reserving the right to make jokes), but I cannot support the "right" of an individual to use the public restroom of their choice, or to compel by force a female sports league to accept athletes who were born men.

That being said, I believe a private property owner can set up whatever restroom situation they wish. And people can make up sports leagues with any kinds of rules that they wish. I would absolutely encourage transgender people and their allies to set up those institutions on their own. I will avoid them, and I will vote for any proposition in California that preserves the gender binary in public institutions.

#37 Sarang01

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 07:20 PM

Because we're all together in this.  Gay people, both men and women, have faced terrible discrimination.  Bisexuals additionally.  Sometimes Gay men don't fit exactly into the stereotype of male or women with female.  This is how Transgender people fit in.  You're Transgender if you like to crossdress or a Drag Queen so you can be Gay and part of the Transgender group.  Or you can even be a straight male and be Transgender.

In case I've confused anyone I use the terms Transsexual, Transwomen and Transmen to identify those particular individuals in the Transgender group.  I use Transgender for what it has been used as of until recently by those wishing to revise those terms...an umbrella term.  That means Transgender includes:  Crossdresser(i.e. Transvestite), Drag Queen, Transsexual, etc.

I decry and find disgusting anyone Gay or Bisexual who would throw any Transsexual under the bus or just a TG person in general.


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#38 irideabike

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 03:36 PM

What discrimination have they faced?  People think its weird and look at them funny?


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#39 mykevermin

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 05:47 PM

No, not malice, but I do intend derision. The entire concept of transgender people is something I reject whole-heartedly. I believe in the gender binary and it is better for society to conform to the gender binary.

Not that anyone with gender identity disorder should be harassed or attacked physically. Anyone who does this should be punished under the fullest extend of the law. But at the same time we should not reshape society to fit their needs.

 

Hegemony's a comfy blanket, isn't it?
 

 

I fully support gay marriage and gay rights (while reserving the right to make jokes)

 

How crass and crude. You can't get through your daily life without needing to affirm the seat of privilege you sit from, yet did nothing to earn? Poor form.

 

 

 

but I cannot support the "right" of an individual to use the public restroom of their choice, or to compel by force a female sports league to accept athletes who were born men.

The reduction of transgender issues to mere restroom selection, as if it is a thing that can be chosen at random (i.e., you see to think that trans individuals pick a women's room at 1PM, men's room at 5PM, and women's room at 11PM). That's the fundamental thing you don't grasp about transgender identity - you seem to think there's a temporal flexibility that is (mis)used at the convenience of a person who is multiple genders. Not only is the "multiple genders" item incorrect, the flexibility is your imposition, and not reality in the slightest.

 

 

That being said, I believe a private property owner can set up whatever restroom situation they wish.

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Edited by mykevermin, 12 February 2014 - 05:48 PM.

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#40 IRHari

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 05:30 PM

No, not malice, but I do intend derision. The entire concept of transgender people is something I reject whole-heartedly. I believe in the gender binary and it is better for society to conform to the gender binary.
Not that anyone with gender identity disorder should be harassed or attacked physically. Anyone who does this should be punished under the fullest extend of the law. But at the same time we should not reshape society to fit their needs.

 
Hegemony's a comfy blanket, isn't it?
 
 

I fully support gay marriage and gay rights (while reserving the right to make jokes)

 
How crass and crude. You can't get through your daily life without needing to affirm the seat of privilege you sit from, yet did nothing to earn? Poor form.
 
 
 

but I cannot support the "right" of an individual to use the public restroom of their choice, or to compel by force a female sports league to accept athletes who were born men.

The reduction of transgender issues to mere restroom selection, as if it is a thing that can be chosen at random (i.e., you see to think that trans individuals pick a women's room at 1PM, men's room at 5PM, and women's room at 11PM). That's the fundamental thing you don't grasp about transgender identity - you seem to think there's a temporal flexibility that is (mis)used at the convenience of a person who is multiple genders. Not only is the "multiple genders" item incorrect, the flexibility is your imposition, and not reality in the slightest.
 
 

That being said, I believe a private property owner can set up whatever restroom situation they wish.

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#41 egofed

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 07:59 PM

Quote by myke: "

The reduction of transgender issues to mere restroom selection, as if it is a thing that can be chosen at random (i.e., you see to think that trans individuals pick a women's room at 1PM, men's room at 5PM, and women's room at 11PM). That's the fundamental thing you don't grasp about transgender identity - you seem to think there's a temporal flexibility that is (mis)used at the convenience of a person who is multiple genders. Not only is the "multiple genders" item incorrect, the flexibility is your imposition, and not reality in the slightest."

 

The reality is either you have a dick, or you don't.



#42 GBAstar

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 08:04 PM

Quote by myke: "

The reduction of transgender issues to mere restroom selection, as if it is a thing that can be chosen at random (i.e., you see to think that trans individuals pick a women's room at 1PM, men's room at 5PM, and women's room at 11PM). That's the fundamental thing you don't grasp about transgender identity - you seem to think there's a temporal flexibility that is (mis)used at the convenience of a person who is multiple genders. Not only is the "multiple genders" item incorrect, the flexibility is your imposition, and not reality in the slightest."

 

The reality is either you have a dick, or you don't.

 

Not uh! There is like .00001% of the population that might been more with a genital defect, or has both, or something... and we should all conform to their needs... or something... and spend money... or something.



#43 mykevermin

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 11:02 PM

Quote by myke: "

The reduction of transgender issues to mere restroom selection, as if it is a thing that can be chosen at random (i.e., you see to think that trans individuals pick a women's room at 1PM, men's room at 5PM, and women's room at 11PM). That's the fundamental thing you don't grasp about transgender identity - you seem to think there's a temporal flexibility that is (mis)used at the convenience of a person who is multiple genders. Not only is the "multiple genders" item incorrect, the flexibility is your imposition, and not reality in the slightest."

 

The reality is either you have a dick, or you don't.

I directly addressed your argument. I'm disappointed that you do not elect to do the same.

 

(Howdy, IRHari.)


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#44 UncleBob

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 02:25 AM

When dealing with feelings, how can any kind of administration (school, business, legal, etc.) prove that an individual isn't abusing such a loophole?

 

What would one propose the punishment be for someone proven to be abusing this loophole?

 

Again, doesn't matter to me... You can't tell if the person in the stall next to you is a homosexual man trying to peek at your junk or a straight female dressed as a man trying to peek at your junk (in reality, 99.99999% of them are just folks trying to take a dump) - so, does it really matter?

 

If you're going to make the designation, then it should be on something that is actually determinate.


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#45 egofed

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 05:29 AM

I directly addressed your argument. I'm disappointed that you do not elect to do the same.

 

(Howdy, IRHari.)

Actually you were replying to Spokker. My argument is that bathrooms are separated by types of genitalia, plain and simple. If you are born with both, then use the bathroom that correlates to the genitalia that you have that functions. If both function, use the men's room because you have a dick.



#46 Spokker

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 03:01 AM

http://www.theguardi...transgender-cis
 

Facebook's gender identities are a good start – but why stop at 56?

 
The ride never ends.

#47 berzirk

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 05:10 PM

Not sure if this adds anything at all to the thread, but I spent a little over a month in the Philippines for work, and as a very conservative Catholic country, they are also exceptionally open about homosexuality and the T,B, LMNOPs of the world. They simply refer to everyone who is not of one sex attracted to the other, as "bakla"-gay. Nobody is offended, they actually live in tremendous respect of one another, and many, many folks elect to dress up as the opposite sex, or even have surgery to make it happen. When it comes to which bathroom to use, if you've got a wiener, you're peeing with the boys, lady parts, you're peeing with the girls.

 

I know this, because at one point I was entering the work bathroom as a woman walked out, and I almost changed bathrooms thinking I misread the sign (only to later learn from the supervisor, that the "she" was a bakla).

 

I say let the adults start using whichever potty makes them feel like more of a man/woman but at the HS and under age, let the kids use the genital appropriate bathrooms. The first time a school district is sued because little Suzy got knocked up in the girls bathroom by her boyfriend Johnny, who was trans-curious 15 minutes before he selected that bathroom, then we'll see the pendulum swing the opposite direction, and we'll get back to children being told which bathroom they need to use, regardless of how that makes them feel.



#48 Spokker

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 01:48 AM

Enough with tying everything transgender with everything homosexual. I'm absolutely open about homosexuality in the sense that I am not offended by graphic descriptions of it and I support gay marriage and gay rights and all that crap.

Homosexuality is not a mental illness. There is nothing to feel uncomfortable about. Gender identity disorder, on the other hand, is a mental disorder, and if I ever had to deal with these issues in real life it would make me insanely uncomfortable, so much so that I would remove myself from the situation entirely.

Homophobic? Hell no. Transphobic? Hell yes, and not ashamed. The idea of gay sex doesn't make me nauseous like the idea of a gender reassignment surgery does. It's madness. It's quackery.

Yes, let's all be like the Phillipines.

#49 mykevermin

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 02:08 AM

What's your opinion on big, beautiful, fake titties?


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#50 GBAstar

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 02:16 AM

What's your opinion on big, beautiful, fake titties?

 

Are you comparing fake tits on a born female to a penis that has been mutilated (mean) or transformed (nice) into a vagina on a transexual female?



#51 Spokker

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 02:22 AM

What's your opinion on big, beautiful, fake titties?

I'm a lifetime subscriber to Big Naturals.

If you want a serious answer, if my wife came to me and wanted a boob job, I would strongly encourage her not to. I don't think she would want one, though.

#52 mykevermin

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 03:53 AM

Are you comparing fake tits on a born female to a penis that has been mutilated (mean) or transformed (nice) into a vagina on a transexual female?

Yes. Both are body mods to enhance ones' appearance to be more consistent with the gender one chooses to portray. Far apart on the spectrum, mind. Then again, I also believe that everybody is a matter of degree in favor with restrictions on the second amendment, which, even when I elaborate on what I mean, most people who think of themselves as pro-second-amendment can't seem to grasp. Your lack of understanding is not my incoherence, however.

 

I'm a lifetime subscriber to Big Naturals.

If you want a serious answer, if my wife came to me and wanted a boob job, I would strongly encourage her not to. I don't think she would want one, though.

That's not an answer. Well, it is, I suppose, since the implication is that you would grudgingly accept them, and perhaps even enjoy them. We are, in any case, quite a ways away from being "transphobic," now, despite fake titties being gender modification.


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#53 SpazX

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 05:28 AM

What are the negative ramifications of this?


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#54 berzirk

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 04:51 PM

What are the negative ramifications of this?

Of creating an environment where highschool boys can go into highschool girls bathrooms unsupervised? Were you homeschooled?



#55 dohdough

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 05:18 PM

Of creating an environment where highschool boys can go into highschool girls bathrooms unsupervised? Were you homeschooled?


You're going to have to walk me through this one. Are your concerns about sexual assault and harassment or teens fucking in the bathroom?
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#56 berzirk

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 05:35 PM

You're going to have to walk me through this one. Are your concerns about sexual assault and harassment or teens fucking in the bathroom?

In a word-yes. In more than a word, the allowance for students of mixed genders to be in the bathroom together with no supervision seems to outweigh the miniscule number of transgenderishcuriouso high school students feeling better about getting to pee with a gender they relate more closely to. Stupid kids running off and getting pregnant at home or at a party is off school grounds. Kids getting knocked up at school opens the school up for lack of supervision and allowing it to happen. Girls feeling unsafe because guys are in the bathroom, the higher likelihood of harassment and assault on school grounds. It's all a possibility. The on school grounds part is the biggie here, because that's who is going to get sued.

 

Back in the day it was big news that a girl snuck into the boys bathroom to serve up a BJ to some kid. Now if a guy and a girl walk into the same bathroom a teacher would just have to look the other way in fear that they would be charged for harassing a transgender kid who wanted to go potty with the girls.



#57 mykevermin

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 06:02 PM

It's no coincidence that those in this thread arguing against a policy that would allow trans students bathroom preference are the most uneducated w/r/t what 'transgender' means and refers so. Well, uneducated is the best case scenario - "unashamed" vitriol and anti-trans-bias being the worst.

 

What's disappointing is that the same folks also display a staggering lack of curiosity in remedying that lack of understanding for themselves.


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#58 dohdough

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 06:40 PM

In a word-yes. In more than a word, the allowance for students of mixed genders to be in the bathroom together with no supervision seems to outweigh the miniscule number of transgenderishcuriouso high school students feeling better about getting to pee with a gender they relate more closely to. Stupid kids running off and getting pregnant at home or at a party is off school grounds. Kids getting knocked up at school opens the school up for lack of supervision and allowing it to happen. Girls feeling unsafe because guys are in the bathroom, the higher likelihood of harassment and assault on school grounds. It's all a possibility. The on school grounds part is the biggie here, because that's who is going to get sued.

Girls feeling unsafe is more a reflection of how we're raising boys that sexual assault and harassment is acceptable behavior, whether it's overtly or subliminally...unless you're saying that males are just naturally uncontrollably rapey. If a school is negligent in regards to assault and harassment, then damn right they should be sued.

Don't get me wrong, I know where you're coming from and since I'm having a girl, it's something that I worry about. But allowing a trans student use a boys/girls bathroom is a completely separate issue. Personally, I think that using the staff bathroom would be preferable because it HAS to be cleaner than a restroom that hundreds of students use daily. That and I like my privacy when I'm destroying the air quality of an enclosed space. But if a trans student wants to use whichever bathroom, then I'm fine with it. If other students harass them, then it's the school's responsibility to provide a safe learning environment and no different than how bullying should be treated.

 

Back in the day it was big news that a girl snuck into the boys bathroom to serve up a BJ to some kid. Now if a guy and a girl walk into the same bathroom a teacher would just have to look the other way in fear that they would be charged for harassing a transgender kid who wanted to go potty with the girls.

Let's be realistic here. If there was a trans student, I'm sure the entire administration would know who they are. It wouldn't be an issue.
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#59 berzirk

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 07:11 PM

Girls feeling unsafe is more a reflection of how we're raising boys that sexual assault and harassment is acceptable behavior, whether it's overtly or subliminally...unless you're saying that males are just naturally uncontrollably rapey. If a school is negligent in regards to assault and harassment, then damn right they should be sued.

Don't get me wrong, I know where you're coming from and since I'm having a girl, it's something that I worry about. But allowing a trans student use a boys/girls bathroom is a completely separate issue. Personally, I think that using the staff bathroom would be preferable because it HAS to be cleaner than a restroom that hundreds of students use daily. That and I like my privacy when I'm destroying the air quality of an enclosed space. But if a trans student wants to use whichever bathroom, then I'm fine with it. If other students harass them, then it's the school's responsibility to provide a safe learning environment and no different than how bullying should be treated.

 
Let's be realistic here. If there was a trans student, I'm sure the entire administration would know who they are. It wouldn't be an issue.

Right, so the goal is to make the transgender student feel better, and that's cool, but we all went to school with that fucktard who was just a slimy piece of shit. The guy who was constantly throwing parties so he could get a girl drunk and semi-date rape her. The guy who thought he was waaay cooler than he was, and got a free pass in life cause his parents donated money to the school or some event each year. That kid is going to be the one that is highly trans-curious if it means he can enter the women's bathroom at will and without intervention.

 

I do have a daughter (preschool age) and when she gets to MS/HS, if boys are commonly allowed into the women's bathroom I would have a huuuuuuge problem with that.

 

Let's assume 1/1000 kids would genuinely feel better in the anatomically incorrect bathroom. We're going to at best, mildly inconvenience 500/1000 kids to make sure the 1/1000 feel good. Nobody else sees lunacy in that? It WILL be exploited, it WILL expose schools to far greater risks than telling a transgender kid they need to pee with the boys.

 

In terms of learning more about that community, I have no desire to. I don't care to know why they feel more like a boy or a girl. It's not because I dislike them as people. I still keep in touch with a handful of them from my Philippines trip. They're good folks. On CAG I never read the threads about sales and features of PS+. I don't have a PlayStation and don't plan on getting one, so therefore to learn more about it wouldn't be time well spent.



#60 Sarang01

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 07:56 PM

Jeez this feels like a bloody variant of the "Gays in the Military" issue.  The "deviant"(i.e. the Gay male or Transwoman in the <insert bathroom, locker room, etc.>) is a giant pervert and must be stopped or they'll rape everyone as soon as the door is opened and they're let in.
This idea that any person with male parts has, at any time, an uncontrollable urge to get into a bathroom and get mega-pervy or rape-crazy by any means necessary is comical at best and absurd at worst.  Yes I know they're teenage boys but when I was a teen I didn't grab any mildly attractive girl I saw and try to rape her.


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