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Gun Homicide rates


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#61 kill3r7

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 05:29 PM

Numerically, perhaps. I'm not sure that they pass ethical/constitutional litmus tests, given the very, very, very disproportionate racial impact of (for one thing) stop and frisk.

 

Speaking of NYC, I always wondered about the economic renovation of Times Square (from seedy vice district to family friendly theme park) and how much that has impacted crime rates. Certainly the gentrification of Brooklyn is moving crime from out of there to wherever folks are being displaced to. But that's a whole other conversation.

Agreed on all fronts. It's kind of the chicken and the egg question. Was it the influx of money or was it the police presence that changed NYC? I would argue a little bit of both.

 

I do think that the police department deserves credit for cleaning the streets in the mid to late 90's, the constitutionality of their methods can be debated ad nauseam, I don't think a lot of what they did was constitutional, but it's hard to deny the results. That said, let's be realistic here, they merely made it difficult for folks to partake in seedy businesses out in the open. You can still buy drugs, and get your dick sucked if you want to but everything is now behind close doors. However, the police presence is still there and one could argue that it serves as a pretty strong deterrent. During the same time period the "suits" decided they were tired of the burbs and started to reclaim Manhattan. I recently saw a census graph on Reddit which showed the change in household incomes and cost of living in NYC over the last 20 years. As you can imagine the numbers are staggering. What else is there to say about the socioeconomic change in NYC other than there are now brownstones in Harlem that sell for $3-$4 million dollars a piece on a monthly basis.

 

Brooklyn on the other hand is a slightly different story. Artist and folks looking for a more authentic NYC experience were the fist people to move into Park Slope and Wililamsburg, primarily after the "suits" displaced them from Manhattan. In the early 00s gentrification started to happen, faster then anywhere else I've seen or heard of.  There is a pretty good blog on topic called Brownstoner. The only other place I can think of to compare Brooklyn to is Hoboken, but what has happened in Brooklyn has far outpaced the changes in Hoboken.

 

Bringing our conversation back to the original topic, I hate myself for saying this, because it is such a loaded statement, but the truth of the matter is that investment bankers "might" commit a lot of white collar crimes but they sure as shit are not going to rob folks at gunpoint or shoot each other. Even more telling is the fact that they get around NYC without having a need to carry a gun on them for protection. Life moves along, business as usual without the need for guns.

 

That said NYC like every other city on this planet is not absent of crime, criminals and corruption but a the end of the day anyone who's lived in the area can attest that the last 20 years have brought about a new high.


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#62 mrsilkunderwear

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 01:02 AM

Nah, I've already pointed to other nations who don't have complete bans as potential models.  I'll admit that you can play all sorts of games with "But you said as much as possible!" though.  This is just a web forum though; I'm not trying to nail down exact policy or write legislation here.

Oh yeah you have pointed them out but unfortunately you do not see the big picture. Thats ok though, its not like you are writing a legislation here. 



#63 Spokker

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 08:11 PM

de Blasio is finally going to clean up New York City.

#64 irideabike

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 06:23 PM

I can never understand why people like the OP have fetishes for how things are in different countries but stays in a country that he disagrees with the norms.


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#65 kill3r7

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 07:15 PM

de Blasio is finally going to clean up New York City.

We'll see soon enough, as de Blasio has to renegotiate 150 plus municipal union contracts this year. If he can get past that hurdle unscathed things will be just fine. That said, the city needed Giuliani and Bloomberg to achieve a level of prosperity it enjoys today. 


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#66 RPGNinja

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 12:46 AM

de Blasio is finally going to clean up New York City.


Yeah he is going to clean it up because everyone is going to flee the state when they see how horrible his policies will be.

If New York was much smaller time and had less businesses supporting it it would have failed decades ago like Detroit has in recent times because of all the horrible socialist policies put in place to stifle freedoms and economic prosperity.

#67 kill3r7

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 03:18 PM

Yeah he is going to clean it up because everyone is going to flee the state when they see how horrible his policies will be.

If New York was much smaller time and had less businesses supporting it it would have failed decades ago like Detroit has in recent times because of all the horrible socialist policies put in place to stifle freedoms and economic prosperity.

Spoken like someone who has never lived in NYC. Also, if its policies are so stifling to economic prosperity and freedom why do people from all over the globe flock to NYC? Furthermore, why do business continue to operate and prosper in this city?


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#68 Syntax Error

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 08:12 PM

I can never understand why people like the OP have fetishes for how things are in different countries but stays in a country that he disagrees with the norms.

 

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that his worldview is wider than just "gun regulation".

 

There's things I think other places do better.  There's things I think the US does better.  There's innumerable things I enjoy about the US that have nothing to do with political/social policy at all.  The things I think we could do better I'd rather see us change than move to somewhere else and lose the other things I enjoy.  As a citizen of the United States, I'm empowered to try to change and mold the nation to how I think things should be via various means (voting, activism, whatever).  So implying that someone should just "move to France" (as the usual saying goes) is missing a huge part of what it means to be an American citizen.  It's not about shutting up and just accepting things or leaving.


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#69 renique46

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Posted 09 March 2014 - 11:00 PM

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that his worldview is wider than just "gun regulation".

 

There's things I think other places do better.  There's things I think the US does better.  There's innumerable things I enjoy about the US that have nothing to do with political/social policy at all.  The things I think we could do better I'd rather see us change than move to somewhere else and lose the other things I enjoy.  As a citizen of the United States, I'm empowered to try to change and mold the nation to how I think things should be via various means (voting, activism, whatever).  So implying that someone should just "move to France" (as the usual saying goes) is missing a huge part of what it means to be an American citizen.  It's not about shutting up and just accepting things or leaving.

This is Vs,  we don't need that logic around these parts.



#70 UncleBob

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 02:52 AM

This is Vs,  we don't need that logic around these parts.


Yeah - why use logic when you can just post things like "move to Somalia" and such. :D
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#71 RPGNinja

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 10:00 PM

Spoken like someone who has never lived in NYC. Also, if its policies are so stifling to economic prosperity and freedom why do people from all over the globe flock to NYC? Furthermore, why do business continue to operate and prosper in this city?


Spoken like a true idiot, I was born in New York -_-. Businesses continue to operate because New York IS New York, it is like a secondary center of the universe. If you think Detroit had the same kind of support New York had then you need to get your head out of your ass. Detroit wasn't the financial center either and it didn't have things like the Stock Exchange and all the businesses that come with it.

#72 kill3r7

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 10:18 PM

Spoken like a true idiot, I was born in New York -_-. Businesses continue to operate because New York IS New York, it is like a secondary center of the universe. If you think Detroit had the same kind of support New York had then you need to get your head out of your ass. Detroit wasn't the financial center either and it didn't have things like the Stock Exchange and all the businesses that come with it.

Glad to hear you were born in NY. Unfortunately that doesn't make your statement any less idiotic considering that the NYSE and the businesses associated with it were here in the 70s, 80s and early 90s and yet the city was an utter shit hole. So yeah, keep telling yourself that NYC is an awful place to live in with policies that stifle business and liberty. I'm sure the rest of us will continue to enjoy living and working in it.


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#73 mrsilkunderwear

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 03:58 AM

Guns are bad?

http://www.cnn.com/2...pital-shooting/



#74 Syntax Error

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 06:08 PM

 

I dunno... ask the case worker who was shot to death.

 

Oh, wait.


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#75 mrsilkunderwear

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 03:02 AM

I dunno... ask the case worker who was shot to death.

 

Oh, wait.

Nah, I think I'll ask all the people who survived instead of being massacred. 



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Posted 29 July 2014 - 03:54 AM

That makes sense.  Hard to ask the people who have been shot to death what they think about it.  Pity we can't though since I bet they'd have some solid opinions on how great guns are.


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#77 egofed

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 04:08 AM

That makes sense.  Hard to ask the people who have been shot to death what they think about it.  Pity we can't though since I bet they'd have some solid opinions on how great guns are.

So you are for a ban on guns? Please elaborate.



#78 mrsilkunderwear

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 04:19 AM

Yeah I bet they'd tell us how nice a gun would have been when they were getting shot at. 



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Posted 29 July 2014 - 04:43 PM

Really?  If I was getting shot at, I bet my thoughts would be "I wish he didn't have a gun so no one was shooting at me" before "I wish I had a gun so we could be shooting each other".

 

But, hey!   You found a story where a person was murdered with a gun and then that guy was shot with a gun so YAY GUNS!!! :D/ :twoguns:


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#80 egofed

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 05:39 PM

Really?  If I was getting shot at, I bet my thoughts would be "I wish he didn't have a gun so no one was shooting at me" before "I wish I had a gun so we could be shooting each other".

 

But, hey!   You found a story where a person was murdered with a gun and then that guy was shot with a gun so YAY GUNS!!! :D/ :twoguns:

So you do want to ban all guns from citizen ownership?



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Posted 29 July 2014 - 10:53 PM

So you do want to ban all guns from citizen ownership?

 

Probably not.  I mean, if my options were "No guns" or "Guns for everyone" I'd pick the former in a heartbeat.  As more of a shade of gray, I'd try to model our gun penetration, regulations and restrictions more after the numerous countries mentioned upthread who manage to not "ban all guns" and yet don't need to celebrate how awesome guns are when someone gets murdered and then the murderer also gets shot.  You can probably re-read the first 75 posts to get a better feel for all that.


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#82 mrsilkunderwear

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 01:56 AM

Really?  If I was getting shot at, I bet my thoughts would be "I wish he didn't have a gun so no one was shooting at me" before "I wish I had a gun so we could be shooting each other".

 

But, hey!   You found a story where a person was murdered with a gun and then that guy was shot with a gun so YAY GUNS!!! :D/ :twoguns:

Strange. A normal person would think "How do I defend myself?"

 

I am not celebrating the fact that guns are awesome. I am just merely pointing out that lives were saved that day because a professor chose to ignore the dumb rule of a gun free zone. YAY common sense.  :D/



#83 Syntax Error

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 02:54 AM

I'd think that "Common sense" would start with strict measures to keep guns out of the hands of a felon who had been committed multiple times for psychiatric problems but I guess I'm just a "glass is half dead" kind of guy.   But, hey, he did it because he was mad at the "dumb rule of a gun free zone" so I guess he's a martyr for liberty for something.


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#84 mrsilkunderwear

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 04:09 AM

I'd think that "Common sense" would start with strict measures to keep guns out of the hands of a felon who had been committed multiple times for psychiatric problems but I guess I'm just a "glass is half dead" kind of guy.   But, hey, he did it because he was mad at the "dumb rule of a gun free zone" so I guess he's a martyr for liberty for something.

Oh are there no laws against selling guns to minors, felons and the criminally insane people? Before you reply keep in mind we already went over this in the first few pages.



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Posted 31 July 2014 - 12:54 PM

Right, we did.  And I questioned why some people were so adamant against blocking any sort of access for these people to get guns such as straw sales, private purchases, gun shows, mandatory reporting of "stolen" firearms, etc.  In fact, I think I even framed it in the context of "We could take a lot from other nations with much stricter regulations without playing the 'ban all guns' card". 

 

Because I'd call "Don't let the crazy felon just buy a gun at a gun show or via straw purchase where there's no regulation" a common sense sort of thing but I guess not.  "Common sense" is apparently having someone get murdered by an insane felon with a gun and then calling is a big gun victory because someone shot the murderer.


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#86 mrsilkunderwear

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 02:41 PM

Right, we did.  And I questioned why some people were so adamant against blocking any sort of access for these people to get guns such as straw sales, private purchases, gun shows, mandatory reporting of "stolen" firearms, etc.  In fact, I think I even framed it in the context of "We could take a lot from other nations with much stricter regulations without playing the 'ban all guns' card". 

 

Because I'd call "Don't let the crazy felon just buy a gun at a gun show or via straw purchase where there's no regulation" a common sense sort of thing but I guess not.  "Common sense" is apparently having someone get murdered by an insane felon with a gun and then calling is a big gun victory because someone shot the murderer.

I am sure I or someone answered it before but I will do it again. There are some people who do not think that a federal government can be trusted because they have shown to abuse the power. Richard Nixon, George Bush and president Barack Obama are good examples of that. Some people are ok with restrictions on the state level but the results are abysmal.

 

This might seem like common sense but to many it does not. No one called this a victory and trying to label me as a crazy gun nut is a poor tactic. Try to keep it a bit more civil.



#87 egofed

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 02:59 PM

Do we know how this guy got his gun? It says it was unlicensed.



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Posted 31 July 2014 - 03:53 PM

This might seem like common sense but to many it does not. No one called this a victory and trying to label me as a crazy gun nut is a poor tactic. Try to keep it a bit more civil.

 

You're the one who bumped this thread just to post the story.  You obviously thought it was some "win" or else you wouldn't have bothered.  If you need to start backpedaling now that says more about your platform than any missing "civility".

 

But to stick directly to your question there ("Guns are bad?") I'd have to say -- based on the story you present as evidence in which an insane felon gets access to a gun and murders a psychiatrist because he's mad over a "No guns policy" -- yes.  I'm going to go with a solid "yes" on that one.   Must be because I'm lacking in that great "common sense" or something.


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Posted 31 July 2014 - 04:07 PM

Do we know how this guy got his gun? It says it was unlicensed.

 

I haven't seen anything in regards to the gun used this time.  He had multiple gun violations on his record including carrying an unlicensed gun while on parole and armed bank robbery.  Thankfully, he was apparently able to easily get himself a gun this time as well (plus the two other guns found in his home after the fact) and exercise his Second Amendment Solutions when he protested the hospital's gun policy.

 

We wouldn't want any regulations or restrictions though because Scary Obama or Scary Bush.  Much better to let the felons with multiple gun violations and committed to mental hospitals build up a gun collection before going on a murder spree.


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#90 mrsilkunderwear

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 04:17 PM

You're the one who bumped this thread just to post the story.  You obviously thought it was some "win" or else you wouldn't have bothered.  If you need to start backpedaling now that says more about your platform than any missing "civility".

 

But to stick directly to your question there ("Guns are bad?") I'd have to say -- based on the story you present as evidence in which an insane felon gets access to a gun and murders a psychiatrist because he's mad over a "No guns policy" -- yes.  I'm going to go with a solid "yes" on that one.   Must be because I'm lacking in that great "common sense" or something.

Obviously you knew exactly what I thought at the time of the post. I posted the story in order to show that there could have been another massacre in a gun free zone. No backpedaling here.

 

Guns are not bad. They are an inanimate objects. If we apply your logic then we should be banning knives, guns and even the government.