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Dare I bring up the Martin-Zimmerman event again? OK, Fine


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#1 berzirk

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 04:35 PM

Apparently Kobe Bryant used the Trayvon Martin death and trial as an opportunity to say that he disagrees with the assertion that blacks should immediately stand up for other blacks due to race solidarity as a knee-jerk, instead he thinks people should listen to facts, and come up with a logical position. As a result, some leaders are jumping all over him, calling for boycotts, claiming Bryant, the son of two black parents, who grew up in Philly, "never really identified with the African American experience".

 

Now Stephen A. Smith has also chimed in, saying he agrees with Bryant.

 

http://news.yahoo.co...-170311381.html

 

Bryant later said he thought Trayvon was murdered, and he disagreed with the verdict. I actually appreciate a person suggesting we think as individuals instead of with group-thought.



#2 egofed

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 03:47 AM

Amen, brother.



#3 mykevermin

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 02:00 PM

He's entitled to do what he wants.

 

That said, his words to *tremendous* disservice to race issues by painting all issues where African-Americans demonstrate solidarity on a political issue to have not "listening to the facts."

 

This quote will certainly be used by those on the right to flippantly disregard blocs of African-Americans sharing a common opinion. Which they were going to do anyway, I admit.


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#4 berzirk

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 04:00 PM

He's entitled to do what he wants.

 

That said, his words to *tremendous* disservice to race issues by painting all issues where African-Americans demonstrate solidarity on a political issue to have not "listening to the facts."

 

This quote will certainly be used by those on the right to flippantly disregard blocs of African-Americans sharing a common opinion. Which they were going to do anyway, I admit.

Hmm, I think his point is that if an entire ethnic group bands together and gets behind something, they should do so on the merits of the issue, and not because their fellow black, Hispanic, Asian, white, conservative, liberal peers tell them that's what they should think. It's kind of the anti-Al Sharpton/Rush Limbaugh to me.

 

Like I noted, he thinks Zimmerman was guilty based on the facts of the case, but his position is at the higher level-people should think for themselves.

 

To me the most destructive part in all of this are the people "questioning his blackness" like he is expected to be a gullible idiot who will go along with whatever the group tells him. So while you're considered that white people will use an athletes' opinion on independent thinking as a way to disregard groups of black people supporting something, I would say the counter could be true. It could validate that group if they were perceived to have listened to facts, and come to a logical conclusion. This could apply to all people, which I think is really Bryant's point. He's speaking about it specific to the African America community, because that's the one he belongs to (even if other African Americans don't think he's "black enough").



#5 mykevermin

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 04:45 PM

Hmm, I think his point is that if an entire ethnic group bands together and gets behind something, they should do so on the merits of the issue, and not because their fellow black, Hispanic, Asian, white, conservative, liberal peers tell them that's what they should think. 

Oh, no, I understand that. But implicit in his saying so is that those who spoke out against the Martin shooting by Zimmerman did so *without* considering the facts. In doing so, he delegitimizes the entire movement. I think that's appalling, even if incidental.


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#6 berzirk

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 05:06 PM

Oh, no, I understand that. But implicit in his saying so is that those who spoke out against the Martin shooting by Zimmerman did so *without* considering the facts. In doing so, he delegitimizes the entire movement. I think that's appalling, even if incidental.

Hmm, fair enough. I don't get that vibe (and the instance that caused this was when he was asked about the Miami Heat players picture wearing hooded sweatshirts as a solidarity thing, when details on the case were few and far between). I think his point was be rational, hear facts, and make your personal decision. Perhaps based on his own experience with legal troubles, but it seems like all he's saying is think for yourself, don't just blindly follow a group. Which lets face it...in the Martin thing, lots of racist white people banded together to support the Hispanic guy for shooting a "thug", and lots of black bigots banded together to protest the killing of an African American by the hands of a white man, neither having confirmed facts or testimony. Lots of people got their 15 minutes of fame from the case, which is pretty disgusting.

 

I still think what's lost in this, is that Kobe thinks Zimmerman is guilty, and for merely saying "THINK!" he's branded as un-black. That's crazy. I don't understand what those same people need to see from Kobe for him to be black enough for them? Do they want him to live a stereotype to show he has African American credibility? That's horrendous.



#7 berzirk

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 06:32 PM

The more I think about it, having black people come out and say Kobe isn't black enough is probably among the most hurtful, terrible things a peer could say. A person identifies with a group based on ethnicity, religion, world view, or sexuality, then members from that person's own group criticize them for not being ____ enough. Thinking of the minority groups I belong to, I'd be pretty pissed/disappointed if someone said that about me, even if I knew it was untrue.

 

So what does a person need to do to prove to detractors that they are ______ enough? We could quickly take this into nasty stereotype topics. It's like back when Ali was calling people Uncle Tom's to get in their head. Man, I love(d) Ali, but what an awful thing to say about someone else even if it's just for mental warfare.



#8 egofed

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 07:44 PM

The more I think about it, having black people come out and say Kobe isn't black enough is probably among the most hurtful, terrible things a peer could say. A person identifies with a group based on ethnicity, religion, world view, or sexuality, then members from that person's own group criticize them for not being ____ enough. Thinking of the minority groups I belong to, I'd be pretty pissed/disappointed if someone said that about me, even if I knew it was untrue.

 

So what does a person need to do to prove to detractors that they are ______ enough? We could quickly take this into nasty stereotype topics. It's like back when Ali was calling people Uncle Tom's to get in their head. Man, I love(d) Ali, but what an awful thing to say about someone else even if it's just for mental warfare.

A person needs to do nothing. Let ignorant people make their foolish accusations and just live your life in the fashion you deem best. Following your own mind and showing others that path is the best way to wake up the sheeple on all sides. One of my best friends is a black guy who wears Converse shoes and surf T-shirts. I've seen other black guys joke his clothing and demeanor. His "coolness" in my eyes comes from the fact that he doesn't give a shit what strangers think and is his own man.



#9 dohdough

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 07:48 PM

A black teen was shot and killed while the person that fired the shot got off scot free UNTIL people started getting mobilized on the issue. It literally took months of public pressure to even get a charge filed, muchless a conviction that Jorge never got. This is not something unique to this case and pretty much the MO whenever a black person is shot by a white person or person in authority. Not that anyone should be listening to Kobe about anything other than basketball, but the fact that black people have been on the ass-end of these kinds of things should demonstrate the difference between solidarity and groupthink. If Kobe was looking to add nuance, he certainly failed regardless of his stance on the the case. By the time the Heat wore those hoodies, there were plenty of facts at the time.

This reminds me of Will Smith's comments on Oprah about how black people have "no more excuses" because Obama became president. Shepard Smith, on the otherhand, acknowledges the disparity and being on the receiving end of an unjust system. Well, "sometimes" shouldn't equal "most of the time."

But the thing that really gets me is that you compared the New Black Panthers to Stormfront. Seriously dude, scale is totally out of whack there and the stuff coming from Stormfront is (not)surprisingly close to general sentiment about the case. That should set off some alarms, right there. We had people unironically talking about Purple Drank and weed turning someone into SuperNegro™.

As for the not-black-enough thing, well, he's been "Kobe" for so long that he's probably forgotten what it was like to be Kobe, if he even ever existed. I was never a fan of his anyways.
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#10 mykevermin

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 08:01 PM

To Stormfront?

 

Link, please.


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#11 berzirk

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 08:47 PM

A black teen was shot and killed while the person that fired the shot got off scot free UNTIL people started getting mobilized on the issue. It literally took months of public pressure to even get a charge filed, muchless a conviction that Jorge never got. This is not something unique to this case and pretty much the MO whenever a black person is shot by a white person or person in authority. Not that anyone should be listening to Kobe about anything other than basketball, but the fact that black people have been on the ass-end of these kinds of things should demonstrate the difference between solidarity and groupthink. If Kobe was looking to add nuance, he certainly failed regardless of his stance on the the case. By the time the Heat wore those hoodies, there were plenty of facts at the time.

 

Even if the outcome was unjust, the fact that the case was tried, and found Zimmerman innocent at least lends credence to the thought that the first investigators didn't think a chargeable crime took place, so I'm not sure I'm totally on board with saying the demonstrations and outcry leading to charges was what was just. I truly don't know. I go back and forth on the whole case to be honest. No need to re-hash it all here, but the end result was that a jury found Zimmerman innocent.

 

But the thing that really gets me is that you compared the New Black Panthers to Stormfront. Seriously dude, scale is totally out of whack there and the stuff coming from Stormfront is (not)surprisingly close to general sentiment about the case. That should set off some alarms, right there. We had people unironically talking about Purple Drank and weed turning someone into SuperNegro™.

 

Sorry, I don't know if this is directed at me, or maybe I missed a post? The New Black Panthers are a bunch of losers and asshats, this much I believe, but I don't recall mentioning them. They're highly irrelevant to me, until someone elects to give them 5 minutes of coverage. I don't know who/what Stormfront is.

As for the not-black-enough thing, well, he's been "Kobe" for so long that he's probably forgotten what it was like to be Kobe, if he even ever existed. I was never a fan of his anyways.

 

And that's fine, nobody says we need to give athletes any kind of attention or weigh their opinions, although I'd suggest Bill Russell, Kareem, Charles Barkley, Muhammad Ali, and a host of other athletes have given us meaningful opinions on society from their soapbox that sports allowed them. But as someone who is well educated on the topic of race relations, and race issues, you wouldn't agree that regardless of the reason to say someone isn't black enough, or doesn't fit within the African American experience umbrella is a terribly hurtful, unjust, morally wrong thing to say?

 

I know you don't honestly believe that a person born an African American could be considered "not black". If he wasn't recognizable (and there are probably places he's gone where he's not) he's still going to get followed around at stores, pulled over more frequently than white people, "fit the description" of a criminal in the area. That's inescapable because of our messed up society and his skin color. Explain to me what he needs to do to be "more black".



#12 egofed

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 10:15 PM

Doh said:                    

 

Posted Today, 03:48 PM

"A black teen was shot and killed while the person that fired the shot got off scot free UNTIL people started getting mobilized on the issue."
 
 
 
Eight witnesses were questioned at the scene. Six of the witnesses were white, one witness was black, and one was classified as “Other.” All eight witnesses provided statements that reflect the claims of Zimmerman.
 

The crime scene was taped and all physical evidence was collected to further investigate. No information regarding any of these findings have been released other than the police agree that evidence collected does match the claim of self-defense from Zimmerman. Zimmerman was arrested and brought into custody and interviewed by law enforcement agents; later he was released.

Read more: http://www.digitaljo...0#ixzz2xfuawjpN

 

But one man's testimony could be key for the police.

"The guy on the bottom who had a red sweater on was yelling to me: 'help, help…and I told him to stop and I was calling 911," he said.

Trayvon Martin was in a hoodie; Zimmerman was in red.

http://www.sodahead....an not arrested

 

So what we got was an uninformed public outcry of "INJUSTICE!!!" when the evidence actually supported Zimmerman's story with an eye witness to boot. Mob mentality robbed a man of his legal rights and wasted a ton of tax payer money. Thank God he got off scott free even though the evidence deems him not guilty....
 



#13 dohdough

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 12:55 AM

Even if the outcome was unjust, the fact that the case was tried, and found Zimmerman innocent at least lends credence to the thought that the first investigators didn't think a chargeable crime took place, so I'm not sure I'm totally on board with saying the demonstrations and outcry leading to charges was what was just. I truly don't know. I go back and forth on the whole case to be honest. No need to re-hash it all here, but the end result was that a jury found Zimmerman innocent.

The lead investigator for the case actually wanted to charge Zimmerman and the chief, along with an ADA, wanted to bury it. That was their plan from the night of the shooting. It's also part of the reason why the chief was asked to resign despite the garbage that egofed posted. The only justice called for by the parents and their official representatives, if memory serves me correct, was for Zimmerman to be charged and go through the court system. I don't want to rehash it either, but it's important to have the facts.
 

Sorry, I don't know if this is directed at me, or maybe I missed a post? The New Black Panthers are a bunch of losers and asshats, this much I believe, but I don't recall mentioning them. They're highly irrelevant to me, until someone elects to give them 5 minutes of coverage. I don't know who/what Stormfront is.

Stormfront is a white supremacist forum and the source of the Purple Drank and wrong Trayvon Martin "thug" pics that went viral. I assumed that it was what you were referring to when you mentioned "white racists." I also thought you were referring to the New Black Panthers when you mentioned "black bigots" as those two organizations were the source of a lot of crap.
 

And that's fine, nobody says we need to give athletes any kind of attention or weigh their opinions, although I'd suggest Bill Russell, Kareem, Charles Barkley, Muhammad Ali, and a host of other athletes have given us meaningful opinions on society from their soapbox that sports allowed them. But as someone who is well educated on the topic of race relations, and race issues, you wouldn't agree that regardless of the reason to say someone isn't black enough, or doesn't fit within the African American experience umbrella is a terribly hurtful, unjust, morally wrong thing to say?
 
I know you don't honestly believe that a person born an African American could be considered "not black". If he wasn't recognizable (and there are probably places he's gone where he's not) he's still going to get followed around at stores, pulled over more frequently than white people, "fit the description" of a criminal in the area. That's inescapable because of our messed up society and his skin color. Explain to me what he needs to do to be "more black".

I think it's important to put those figures in the context of the times and that unless one has demonstrated a certain level of expertise on a subject, comments should be taken with a grain of salt.

I also think that Kobe's detractors have a valid point despite the way they've expressed it. Then again, I don't think Kobe has to prove how black he is to any one and shouldn't feel the need to. Things tend to get a bit muddled where class intersects with race.
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"Speaking of which, there's another elitist prick that argues constantly on the Politics forums by the name of dohdough. He's a complete douche, but at least he keeps his posts in that cesspool of useless opinions. He gets my runner-up nomination."


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#14 Spokker

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 01:30 AM

Kobe has been accused of not being black enough, the most notable example being the criticism from Jim Brown. Bryant was basically raised in Italy, and it would make sense that the permanent victimhood mentality of much of black America was not so strongly ingrained in him.

 

I've always liked Kobe's outspokenness on all issues. Athletes, celebrities, whatever should not just shut up and entertain us, but pontificate like any regular ass person would. Though my favorite troublemaker is still Charles Barkley.

 

Stephen A. Smith is another fair-minded guy, but at the end of the day they all seem to state the system and society is unjust and unfair as a matter of fact, as if that's just how it is. In reality, it's the behavior of a disproportionate and significant amount of young black men that the system and society is reacting to. When you've got people in progressive California, who have been through the public school system, who have been through the diversity training and lessons, who are still "racist" and have a poor view of blacks as a group, I think that says something. You can't just force equality. Change must come from within. The culture must change. I dare say that many pockets of young blacks seem less assimilated than recent Hispanic immigrants. It's a sad situation.



#15 UncleBob

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 01:59 AM

[...]Jorge[...]


Stay classy.
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#16 renique46

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 06:04 AM

This shit again? Fuck this thread for being made.



#17 soldado

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 11:56 AM

Blacks breaking away from the nonsense fed to them by wacky liberals. Good to see



#18 Purple Flames

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 05:55 PM

ITT: conservative VS forums members clamor around a black guy who makes a statement that reinforces their worldview.



#19 berzirk

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 06:55 PM

ITT: conservative VS forums members clamor around a black guy who makes a statement that reinforces their worldview.

I'm not a conservative, and my two points are that I appreciate Kobe saying he wants to create an independent, informed opinion rather than blindly follow a group, and that I think it's despicable that people would say Kobe's view is wrong because he hasn't lived the "African American experience". I don't see how political classification figures into either of those points.

 

Again, his personal position is that Zimmerman got away with murder. So you guys who are trying to say his comments on thinking independently is hurtful and damaging, you do realize that he came to the same conclusion, right?  So what's wrong with how he came to his position? I still fail to see why suggesting people inform themselves rather than blindly follow a group is bad. Whether it be on ObamaCare, Martin-Zimmerman incident, minimum wage increases, or the "War on Terror".

 

So I guess my summary of the thread would be different: "Let's argue about why the same conclusion is wrong, and my view is right."



#20 lilboo

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 06:03 AM

Well any rational human being should care more about facts vs emotionalism. But like I said, rational. This is America. We have to rally for whatever stimulates us the most. 

I don't think I could ever support someone based on them being a guy, or white, or italian, or gay, or from NJ just because "I am". That's so... stupid. So so.. so so.. stupid. 


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#21 egofed

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 06:24 AM

The lead investigator for the case actually wanted to charge Zimmerman and the chief, along with an ADA, wanted to bury it. That was their plan from the night of the shooting. It's also part of the reason why the chief was asked to resign despite the garbage that egofed posted. The only justice called for by the parents and their official representatives, if memory serves me correct, was for Zimmerman to be charged and go through the court system. I don't want to rehash it either, but it's important to have the facts.

Stormfront is a white supremacist forum and the source of the Purple Drank and wrong Trayvon Martin "thug" pics that went viral. I assumed that it was what you were referring to when you mentioned "white racists." I also thought you were referring to the New Black Panthers when you mentioned "black bigots" as those two organizations were the source of a lot of crap.

I think it's important to put those figures in the context of the times and that unless one has demonstrated a certain level of expertise on a subject, comments should be taken with a grain of salt.

I also think that Kobe's detractors have a valid point despite the way they've expressed it. Then again, I don't think Kobe has to prove how black he is to any one and shouldn't feel the need to. Things tend to get a bit muddled where class intersects with race.


Doh, maybe make a few less assumptions on what you think people mean. Also, not all people speak in "coded language" and use "dog whistles". Some people, amazingly, just say what they actually mean. Interjecting race into every interpretation you make leads to a lot of false assumptions. Thank you for your attention.

#22 Msut77

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 12:06 PM

Doh, maybe make a few less assumptions on what you think people mean. Also, not all people speak in "coded language" and use "dog whistles". Some people, amazingly, just say what they actually mean. 

Some people yes, none of them post here.


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#23 dohdough

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 01:30 PM

I don't think I could ever support someone based on them being a guy, or white, or italian, or gay, or from NJ just because "I am". That's so... stupid. So so.. so so.. stupid.

Let's pretend that I'm a Chinese guy living in Hong Kong. I would never support someone based on them being a guy, or Chinese, or Cantonese, or gay, or from Macao just because "I am." That's so...stupid. So so...so so...stupid. But everyone is Chinese, you say? What difference does that make? :roll:
 
 

Doh, maybe make a few less assumptions on what you think people mean. Also, not all people speak in "coded language" and use "dog whistles". Some people, amazingly, just say what they actually mean. Interjecting race into every interpretation you make leads to a lot of false assumptions. Thank you for your attention.

If you want to feign or be ignorant of the things that come out of your mouth, that's your choice, but don't expect others to follow suit just because you choose to be ignorant of them.
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"Speaking of which, there's another elitist prick that argues constantly on the Politics forums by the name of dohdough. He's a complete douche, but at least he keeps his posts in that cesspool of useless opinions. He gets my runner-up nomination."


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#24 Spokker

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 02:55 PM

Now that Kobe is injured he'll have time to look at the actual trial footage. Then again, if he ever came to the wrong conclusion, his career would be in jeopardy. He's got a retirement and hall of fame legacy to attend to. That would be ruined with wrongthink.

 

So hoodies up for a thug that wanted to teach that "cracker" a lesson.



#25 Spokker

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 02:58 PM

ITT: conservative VS forums members clamor around a black guy who makes a statement that reinforces their worldview.

Kobe said something good here but he's not the top conscious black celebrity. Charles Barkley is more informed than he is. As far as celebrities go there's also Cosby, who looks at the root cause of the problem unapologetically.



#26 mykevermin

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 03:22 PM

ITT: Spokker likes three African-Americans on TV only because they chide other African-Americans on TV.


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#27 egofed

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 04:46 PM

ITT: Spokker likes three African-Americans on TV only because they chide other African-Americans on TV.

Here is another question for ya. Could you indeed be such an idiot that you can't see the difference between liking what people say because it asks them to accept personal responsibility and change destructive and unproductive habits, or simply believe that every white guy hates every black person?



#28 egofed

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 04:51 PM

Let's pretend that I'm a Chinese guy living in Hong Kong. I would never support someone based on them being a guy, or Chinese, or Cantonese, or gay, or from Macao just because "I am." That's so...stupid. So so...so so...stupid. But everyone is Chinese, you say? What difference does that make? :roll:
 
 
If you want to feign or be ignorant of the things that come out of your mouth, that's your choice, but don't expect others to follow suit just because you choose to be ignorant of them.

You are the one assuming people's double meanings and giving the improper thought process to the "translation". Here's another anecdote for ya, let's see what you take away from the story: We transported a 33 year old lady on Thursday. She lives in tax subsidized housing and is pregnant with her 12th kid. Eleven already alive and being cared for by the state. Do I dislike this bitch because she is black, or because she is an ignorant, selfish, horrible person with no self control?



#29 mykevermin

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 05:42 PM

Here is another question for ya. Could you indeed be such an idiot that you can't see the difference between liking what people say because it asks them to accept personal responsibility and change destructive and unproductive habits, or simply believe that every white guy hates every black person?

http://www.cheapassg.../#entry11664180

 

Blargh. You've got to be avoidant on purpose.


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#30 egofed

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 07:33 PM

Hhaahahahhaa..indeed that question was to annoy you, but the point behind it still stands. And as far as avoidant, in the Harry Reid thread, aren't you the one bringing up WMD's , CIA torture, etc instead of just admitting that the dude is a liar? ( actually maybe you did admit it, but just didn't find it deplorable :roll: ).  Back to this topic, conditions for many of those in poverty(white, black, etc)  will not substantially get better until the  desire to complete high school, not drink, not have children, and not live off the tax payer dole out weighs the current standards of culture and requirements for welfare. In essence, many are just comfortable enough to not have ambition to do better. Hence the generational poverty cycle I see everyday. This leads to the mob mentality because personal responsibility and individuality actually means just that. You have to take responsibility for your own actions as an individual and can not hide behind a defense as a victimized group. It is a reasonable belief that Trayvon attacked someone that he viewed as disrespecting him. The evidence collaborates Zimmerman's story as such. If the police view the evidence as verifying  what Zimmerman and the freaking eye witness say, then not detaining him, infringing on his civil rights, and wasting tax payer money is the right call every time. Does the justice system discriminate sometimes? Sure, but not EVERYTIME as some would like to believe. RIP Trayvon Martin as a young man who got influenced by  a violent culture that inspired him to fight versus calling the police to solve a miscommunication. We should hope that this would change youths minds about fighting versus arguing that Zimmerman should have just taken his ass whipping like a man....