Christmas: Cambodia Is Wonderful That Time of Year

PittsburghAfterDark

CAGiversary!
John Edwards is supposed to be a great lawyer but at the recent Democratic convention he made a rookie mistake: He raised a question without knowing the answer. "If you have any questions about what John Kerry's made of, just spend three minutes with the men who served with him," he said.

Edwards meant Kerry's "band of brothers" - the small entourage of vets who served under him in Vietnam and now strongly support him for President.

Evidently, Edwards did not know at the time that almost every officer who commanded Kerry or served alongside him opposes his candidacy. Worse, they have formed a group, Swiftboat Veterans for Truth, that claims more than 250 members.

Their case against Kerry is set forth in a new book, "Unfit for Command," co-written by longtime Kerry critic John O'Neill, and in a TV ad from the group.

Kerry's critics in arms allege that he didn't deserve one of his Purple Hearts and his Bronze Star. They make these claims on the basis of firsthand knowledge. But combat is notoriously confusing, and soldiers in the heat of battle make poor witnesses. Kerry deserves the benefit of the doubt. If the Navy says he won his medals fair and square, that's good enough for me.

What Kerry did (or didn't do) in Cambodia is a different matter.

On March 27, 1986, Kerry told his fellow senators: "I remember Christmas of 1968, sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I remember what it was like to be shot at by the Vietnamese and the Khmer Rouge and Cambodians, and the President of the United States telling the American people that I was not there, the troops were not in Cambodia.

"I have that memory, which is seared - seared - in me."

Here's the problem: Kerry's commanding officers and some of his crew members reportedly deny that he was in Cambodia on Christmas 1968. They say he was stationed near the town of Sa Dec, 55 miles from the Cambodian border.

Kerry's people are trying hard to discredit his discreditors. They call "Unfit for Command" co-author O'Neill a Republican hack with a decades-long grudge against Kerry. They say Texas moneymen close to Karl Rove are behind the TV spots and are warning TV stations, in writing, not to air them. They maintain that the Swiftboat Veterans for Truth are motivated by jealousy of Kerry or anger at his post-Vietnam anti-war activities. They want to dismiss all questions about Kerry's war record as sleazy slander.

Sorry, but that's not going to wash. The issue is not whether the charges against Kerry are politically motivated (they obviously are) or who is paying for them. There's just one relevant question: Are the allegations true? Specifically, is it true he lied about being in Cambodia.

Unlike the debate over Kerry's medals, this is a matter that can be checked and verified. If it turns out Kerry was there, the Swiftboat Veterans for Truth are liars and their charges are, in the words of Kerry's friend John McCain, "dishonest and dishonorable." But if he wasn't there, the Kerry campaign is saddled with a problem it can't solve by calling Republicans names, threatening TV stations or even bringing up President Bush's less than stellar war record.

Kerry has staked his candidacy on Vietnam. His running mate has publicly invited the country to judge Kerry by listening to his comrades in arms. A lot of them, to Edwards' obvious chagrin, are saying that John Kerry is unfit for command.

If it turns out he made up the story of Christmas in Cambodia, they could very well be right.

Linky Linky!

I'll address the points before they come up.

1. This group is financed by Republicans.

Swift Boat Veterans for truth is a 527 political group that has no ties to any single candidate. It has total funding of $158,750, $100,000 of which came from Bob Perry of Perry Homes in Texas. Opensecrets.org

This is nothing compared to the $41.6 million raised by the Joint Victory Campaign 2004, the $28.1 million raised by the Media Fund or the $26.9 million raised by America coming together. In other words, they are a very tiny PAC and don't even come close to matching even the 527 fundraising of the Marijuana Policy Project or Oregon Grocery Association . Opensecrets.org top 527 group fundraisers.

2. John Kerry was taken out of context.

Then why has he said it in newspaper articles (The 1979 review that appeared in the Boston Herald for Apocalypse now contains the quote.) as do several other inerviews and the Congressional Record from 1986. Congressional Record transcripts are not available online from their official souce until 1992. All published accounts of Kerry's 1986 speech, given while he was voting against supporting the Contras, are transcripts.
] Daily Telegraph UK
MSNBC book transcript, John Kerry's website account. Boston Globe account.

On the floor of the U.S. Senate on March 27, 1986, Kerry launched one of his many attacks against President Reagan—this time charging that President Reagan’s actions in Central America were leading the United States into yet another Vietnam, claiming that he could recognize the error of the administration’s ways because he had experienced firsthand the duplicity of the Nixon administration in lying about American incursions into Cambodia during the Vietnam War. Kerry charged that he had been illegally ordered into Cambodia during Christmas 1968:

I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I remember what it was like to be shot at by the Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge and Cambodians, and have the president of the United States telling the American people that I was not there; the troops were not in Cambodia. I have that memory which is seared—seared—in me. Kerry also described, for example, for the Boston Herald his vivid memories of his Christmas Eve spent in Cambodia:

I remember spending Christmas Eve of 1968 five miles across the Cambodian border being shot at by our South Vietnamese allies who were drunk and celebrating Christmas. The absurdity of almost being killed by our own allies in a country in which President Nixon claimed there were no American troops was very real.


Now here's a basic problem. Richard Nixon was elected in 1968 but was not innagurated until 1969. Lyndon Johnson was President of the United States on Christmas Eve and Christmas Day of 1968. If there was a President making these claims on the dates Kery claims to have been in Cambodia it was Johnson.

John Kerry did write about this in his book but the author (John Kerry himself.) has forbidden reprints. Why would a Presidential candidate block publication of his own book? Can you imagine John F. Kennedy doing the same for "Profiles In Courage"? Copies are going on Amazon for $420-1,200 used and are surely going to accelerate in value if the candidate himself will not answer this simple question, let alone the rest of the charges contained within "Unfit For Command". Link for "The New Soldier" price estimates.

3. Only talk radio and the right wing websites care about this.

The book is scheduled to be released August 15th. There is an official embargo on by the publisher until the street date. The Druge Report willingly broke that embargo and took the lead on promoting its claims. Since then Nightline has dedicated an episode to the controversy and FOX News has stated several times that when they confronted the Kerry campaign directly they claim he was taken out of context. When given the Congressional Record, Boston Glove movie reviews for Apocalypse Now the campaign said they would have to get back to FOX News. This was Monday, it's now Wednesday.

Other points brought up in this book of note:
*How captured Americans were tortured in North Vietnamese prisons for not endorsing John Kerry's false testimony-before the United States Senate-about alleged American war crimes.

* How John Kerry carried a typewriter and an 8-mm home movie camera with him to Vietnam so he could record his own exaggerated version of his war exploits and film staged reenactments of his "combat actions" to advance his political career.

image003.jpg

* Why John Kerry's photograph hangs in a place of honor in the Vietnamese communist "War Remnants Museum" in Saigon .

Jeffrey M. Epstein of Vietnam Vets for the Truth acquired the photograph over the Memorial Day weekend as America was commemorating its military heroes. Jeff Epstein explains the importance of the photograph:

"This photograph's unquestionable significance lies in its placement in the American protestors' section of the War Crimes Museum in Saigon. The Vietnamese communists clearly recognize John Kerry's contributions to their victory. This find can be compared to the discovery of a painting of Neville Chamberlain hanging in a place of honor in Hitler's Eagle's Nest in 1945."

Below the photograph of John Kerry are explanatory placards in English, French, Vietnamese, and Chinese. The English placard reads:

"Mr. Do Muoi, Secretary General of the Vietnamese Communist Party met with Congressman and Veterans Delegation in Vietnam (July 15-18, 1993)"

Senator Kerry may argue today that his anti-war protests did not render support to the enemy in time of war and that his activities did not violate the definition of treason given in Article III, Section 3, of the US Constitution. This exhibit paying tribute to Kerry in the War Protestors Hall of the War Remnants Museum in Ho Chi Minh City tells a very different story. The Vietnamese communists clearly feel that the American anti-war protestors were a very important force in undermining support in the United States for American war efforts, a force that contributed materially to ultimate communist victory in 1975.

On Fox News' Hannity and Colmes show on Friday, May 28, 2004, Rear Admiral Roy Hoffman (USN, Retired) accused John Kerry of being a traitor because of his anti-war activities. This photo, which demonstrates the extent to which the Vietnamese communists acknowledge that he supported them during the Vietnam War, corroborates this charge.
 
Here ya go PAD, another thread promoting innacuratre info. The Swift Boat veternes group and the book "Unfit for command " is just another smear packed full of liers. The authors have been discredited as being nothing than partisan hacks. If you want to argue in support of Bush's failed policies that's fine, but please try and post stuff with facts and not garbage like this.
 
The U.S. government has always denied going into Cambodia, but there have been numerous accounts that this was actually done during the Vietnam War. Currently, there is no way to prove or disprove this fact.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']John Edwards is supposed to be a great lawyer but at the recent Democratic convention he made a rookie mistake: He raised a question without knowing the answer. "If you have any questions about what John Kerry's made of, just spend three minutes with the men who served with him," he said.

Edwards meant Kerry's "band of brothers" - the small entourage of vets who served under him in Vietnam and now strongly support him for President.

Evidently, Edwards did not know at the time that almost every officer who commanded Kerry or served alongside him opposes his candidacy. Worse, they have formed a group, Swiftboat Veterans for Truth, that claims more than 250 members.

Their case against Kerry is set forth in a new book, "Unfit for Command," co-written by longtime Kerry critic John O'Neill, and in a TV ad from the group.

Kerry's critics in arms allege that he didn't deserve one of his Purple Hearts and his Bronze Star. They make these claims on the basis of firsthand knowledge. But combat is notoriously confusing, and soldiers in the heat of battle make poor witnesses. Kerry deserves the benefit of the doubt. If the Navy says he won his medals fair and square, that's good enough for me.

What Kerry did (or didn't do) in Cambodia is a different matter.

On March 27, 1986, Kerry told his fellow senators: "I remember Christmas of 1968, sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I remember what it was like to be shot at by the Vietnamese and the Khmer Rouge and Cambodians, and the President of the United States telling the American people that I was not there, the troops were not in Cambodia.

"I have that memory, which is seared - seared - in me."

Here's the problem: Kerry's commanding officers and some of his crew members reportedly deny that he was in Cambodia on Christmas 1968. They say he was stationed near the town of Sa Dec, 55 miles from the Cambodian border.

Kerry's people are trying hard to discredit his discreditors. They call "Unfit for Command" co-author O'Neill a Republican hack with a decades-long grudge against Kerry. They say Texas moneymen close to Karl Rove are behind the TV spots and are warning TV stations, in writing, not to air them. They maintain that the Swiftboat Veterans for Truth are motivated by jealousy of Kerry or anger at his post-Vietnam anti-war activities. They want to dismiss all questions about Kerry's war record as sleazy slander.

Sorry, but that's not going to wash. The issue is not whether the charges against Kerry are politically motivated (they obviously are) or who is paying for them. There's just one relevant question: Are the allegations true? Specifically, is it true he lied about being in Cambodia.

Unlike the debate over Kerry's medals, this is a matter that can be checked and verified. If it turns out Kerry was there, the Swiftboat Veterans for Truth are liars and their charges are, in the words of Kerry's friend John McCain, "dishonest and dishonorable." But if he wasn't there, the Kerry campaign is saddled with a problem it can't solve by calling Republicans names, threatening TV stations or even bringing up President Bush's less than stellar war record.

Kerry has staked his candidacy on Vietnam. His running mate has publicly invited the country to judge Kerry by listening to his comrades in arms. A lot of them, to Edwards' obvious chagrin, are saying that John Kerry is unfit for command.

If it turns out he made up the story of Christmas in Cambodia, they could very well be right.

Linky Linky!

I'll address the points before they come up.

1. This group is financed by Republicans.

Swift Boat Veterans for truth is a 527 political group that has no ties to any single candidate. It has total funding of $158,750, $100,000 of which came from Bob Perry of Perry Homes in Texas. Opensecrets.org

This is nothing compared to the $41.6 million raised by the Joint Victory Campaign 2004, the $28.1 million raised by the Media Fund or the $26.9 million raised by America coming together. In other words, they are a very tiny PAC and don't even come close to matching even the 527 fundraising of the Marijuana Policy Project or Oregon Grocery Association . Opensecrets.org top 527 group fundraisers.

2. John Kerry was taken out of context.

Then why has he said it in newspaper articles (The 1979 review that appeared in the Boston Herald for Apocalypse now contains the quote.) as do several other inerviews and the Congressional Record from 1986. Congressional Record transcripts are not available online from their official souce until 1992. All published accounts of Kerry's 1986 speech, given while he was voting against supporting the Contras, are transcripts.
] Daily Telegraph UK
MSNBC book transcript, John Kerry's website account. Boston Globe account.

On the floor of the U.S. Senate on March 27, 1986, Kerry launched one of his many attacks against President Reagan—this time charging that President Reagan’s actions in Central America were leading the United States into yet another Vietnam, claiming that he could recognize the error of the administration’s ways because he had experienced firsthand the duplicity of the Nixon administration in lying about American incursions into Cambodia during the Vietnam War. Kerry charged that he had been illegally ordered into Cambodia during Christmas 1968:

I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I remember what it was like to be shot at by the Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge and Cambodians, and have the president of the United States telling the American people that I was not there; the troops were not in Cambodia. I have that memory which is seared—seared—in me. Kerry also described, for example, for the Boston Herald his vivid memories of his Christmas Eve spent in Cambodia:

I remember spending Christmas Eve of 1968 five miles across the Cambodian border being shot at by our South Vietnamese allies who were drunk and celebrating Christmas. The absurdity of almost being killed by our own allies in a country in which President Nixon claimed there were no American troops was very real.


Now here's a basic problem. Richard Nixon was elected in 1968 but was not innagurated until 1969. Lyndon Johnson was President of the United States on Christmas Eve and Christmas Day of 1968. If there was a President making these claims on the dates Kery claims to have been in Cambodia it was Johnson.

John Kerry did write about this in his book but the author (John Kerry himself.) has forbidden reprints. Why would a Presidential candidate block publication of his own book? Can you imagine John F. Kennedy doing the same for "Profiles In Courage"? Copies are going on Amazon for $420-1,200 used and are surely going to accelerate in value if the candidate himself will not answer this simple question, let alone the rest of the charges contained within "Unfit For Command". Link for "The New Soldier" price estimates.

3. Only talk radio and the right wing websites care about this.

The book is scheduled to be released August 15th. There is an official embargo on by the publisher until the street date. The Druge Report willingly broke that embargo and took the lead on promoting its claims. Since then Nightline has dedicated an episode to the controversy and FOX News has stated several times that when they confronted the Kerry campaign directly they claim he was taken out of context. When given the Congressional Record, Boston Glove movie reviews for Apocalypse Now the campaign said they would have to get back to FOX News. This was Monday, it's now Wednesday.

Other points brought up in this book of note:
*How captured Americans were tortured in North Vietnamese prisons for not endorsing John Kerry's false testimony-before the United States Senate-about alleged American war crimes.

* How John Kerry carried a typewriter and an 8-mm home movie camera with him to Vietnam so he could record his own exaggerated version of his war exploits and film staged reenactments of his "combat actions" to advance his political career.

image003.jpg

* Why John Kerry's photograph hangs in a place of honor in the Vietnamese communist "War Remnants Museum" in Saigon .

Jeffrey M. Epstein of Vietnam Vets for the Truth acquired the photograph over the Memorial Day weekend as America was commemorating its military heroes. Jeff Epstein explains the importance of the photograph:

"This photograph's unquestionable significance lies in its placement in the American protestors' section of the War Crimes Museum in Saigon. The Vietnamese communists clearly recognize John Kerry's contributions to their victory. This find can be compared to the discovery of a painting of Neville Chamberlain hanging in a place of honor in Hitler's Eagle's Nest in 1945."

Below the photograph of John Kerry are explanatory placards in English, French, Vietnamese, and Chinese. The English placard reads:

"Mr. Do Muoi, Secretary General of the Vietnamese Communist Party met with Congressman and Veterans Delegation in Vietnam (July 15-18, 1993)"

Senator Kerry may argue today that his anti-war protests did not render support to the enemy in time of war and that his activities did not violate the definition of treason given in Article III, Section 3, of the US Constitution. This exhibit paying tribute to Kerry in the War Protestors Hall of the War Remnants Museum in Ho Chi Minh City tells a very different story. The Vietnamese communists clearly feel that the American anti-war protestors were a very important force in undermining support in the United States for American war efforts, a force that contributed materially to ultimate communist victory in 1975.

On Fox News' Hannity and Colmes show on Friday, May 28, 2004, Rear Admiral Roy Hoffman (USN, Retired) accused John Kerry of being a traitor because of his anti-war activities. This photo, which demonstrates the extent to which the Vietnamese communists acknowledge that he supported them during the Vietnam War, corroborates this charge.[/quote]

anim_puke.gif


Crap like this from Zev Chafets, part of the right-wing attack squad, makes me nauseous. And it's no surprise that PAD falls for it right away.
 
Once again, here's PAD sliming the record of a fellow vet. You should be ashamed of yourself, purveying this crap at a time when our troops need to know they'll come home to unconditional support. I disagree with you on many points, but on this one you're really beginning to sicken me. Absolutely disgusting.

As to the Cambodia issue:

New York Times:

12/13/67:

..Government sources acknowledged that the Administration was considering giving field commanders in South Vietnam authoriy for "hot pursuit" into the country."

...The present interpretation of the policy of self-defense generally bars hot pursuit, but in practice American commanders have engaged in it on occasion during the heat of battle."

12/12/67:

...a plan to this effect, allowing for follow-up by American forces, was "under active consideration..." ..."the decision to move into Cambodia was all but made."

11/16/68:

Since last July Cambodia has been holding eleven American crewmen from an Army river supply vessel that strayed inadvertently into Cambodian territory.

...Cambodia has finally recognized the two-sided nature of the border incidents and has asked the International Control Commission to investigate the Communist incursions that provoked allied attacks across the border."

1/22/68:

Cambodia said today that equipment was abandoned on the battlefield by the "American-South Vietnamese" force that, Cambodia maintains, crossed into her territory Thursday....

...He said that the abandoned items included red scarves worn by paratroop commandos, a United States officer's helmet, weapons, and radio sets.

And from the television show Frontline:

By 1967, the North Vietnamese Army and the Viet Cong were operating along Cambodia's border with South Vietnam, with Sihanouk's approval. The United States and South Vietnam responded with cross-border operations, which Sihanouk publicly protested.
 
Find me where John Kerry was in Cambodia. Just one example. Show me where it is proven he was on Christmas Eve of 1968. Better yet.... find me one piece of historical proof where Richard Nixon was President in 1968.

Guess what, I'm not even making the book the central point of this argument. The central point of this argument is that John Kerry claims to have been in Cambodia several times over the years and never was.

Say what you want about Unfit For Comand..... John Kerry lied. HE LIED about ever being in Cambodia he never came within 55 miles of Cambodia.

Keep drinking the Kool Aid. These facts are right as rain and you know it.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Find me where John Kerry was in Cambodia. Just one example. Show me where it is proven he was on Christmas Eve of 1968. Better yet.... find me one piece of historical proof where Richard Nixon was President in 1968.

Guess what, I'm not even making the book the central point of this argument. The central point of this argument is that John Kerry claims to have been in Cambodia several times over the years and never was.

Say what you want about Unfit For Comand..... John Kerry lied. HE LIED about ever being in Cambodia he never came within 55 miles of Cambodia.

Keep drinking the Kool Aid. These facts are right as rain and you know it.[/quote]

Sure, let me just send the Department of Defense an email asking for records of military operations in Southeast Asia. I'm sure they would be willing to do that, and maybe even give us information on current operations in Najaf.
 
[quote name='Quackzilla']THE PEOPLE WHO WROTE THAT BOOK WERE NOT JOHN KERRY'S CREWMATES![/quote]

Actually one of the guys was his machine gunner.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Find me where John Kerry was in Cambodia. Just one example. Show me where it is proven he was on Christmas Eve of 1968. Better yet.... find me one piece of historical proof where Richard Nixon was President in 1968.

Guess what, I'm not even making the book the central point of this argument. The central point of this argument is that John Kerry claims to have been in Cambodia several times over the years and never was.

Say what you want about Unfit For Comand..... John Kerry lied. HE LIED about ever being in Cambodia he never came within 55 miles of Cambodia.

Keep drinking the Kool Aid. These facts are right as rain and you know it.[/quote]

Wait a second....you're the one who came in here calling Kerry a liar, PAD. I would say it's incumbent upon you to prove the point. So show us the facts. Don't run a post saying what the Swift Boat vets say they are going to say. Give us the proof that Kerry wasn't there. If you're going to make an accusation, you better be able to prove it.

Because you know what, we don't know the facts are "right as rain." You haven't taken the time to prove them so.
 
That book denies the existence of war crimes?

The only people who would go to such lengths to attack Kerry must be those who committed those crimes which he protested.
 
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