Kerry to Bush on war record debate: "Bring It On!"

Looks like Kerry's starting to hit back on the war record smears being propgated by Bush and the right-wing slime machine. Here's an excerpt from a speech to the International Association of Fire Fighters:


Over the last week or so, a group called Swift Boat Veterans for Truth has been attacking me. Of course, this group isn’t interested in the truth – and they’re not telling the truth. They didn’t even exist until I won the nomination for president.

But here’s what you really need to know about them. They’re funded by hundreds of thousands of dollars from a Republican contributor out of Texas. They’re a front for the Bush campaign. And the fact that the President won’t denounce what they’re up to tells you everything you need to know—he wants them to do his dirty work.

Thirty years ago, official Navy reports documented my service in Vietnam and awarded me the Silver Star, the Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts. Thirty years ago, this was the plain truth. It still is. And I still carry the shrapnel in my leg from a wound in Vietnam.

As firefighters you risk your lives everyday. You know what it’s like to see the truth in the moment. You’re proud of what you’ve done—and so am I.

Of course, the President keeps telling people he would never question my service to our country. Instead, he watches as a Republican-funded attack group does just that. Well, if he wants to have a debate about our service in Vietnam, here is my answer: “Bring it on.”

I’m not going to let anyone question my commitment to defending America—then, now, or ever. And I’m not going to let anyone attack the sacrifice and courage of the men who saw battle with me.

And let me make this commitment today: their lies about my record will not stop me from fighting for jobs, health care, and our security – the issues that really matter to the American people.

The situation in Iraq is a mess. That is the President’s responsibility and he owes the American people an answer.

America is on track to lose more jobs than it’s gained under George Bush and he supports a tax code that rewards companies for shipping jobs overseas. He owes the American people an answer.

Health care costs have exploded out of control. The President has done nothing and he owes the American people an answer.

The middle class is paying a bigger share of America’s tax burden. The President needs to answer to the American people why that is fair.

Unfortunately, those in the White House are coming from a different place than you and I. They see things a little differently than you and I. They tell us that today, when it comes to the issues that matter most, we’re getting the job done.

Well, just saying the job is getting done doesn’t make it so.


Link:

http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/speeches/spc_2004_0819.html

Posting someone else's words....your idea of laying out a factual argument, I suppose. You paste an article, proclaim it to be fact, then dance around it asking for 'proof' that it's false. If the Democratic faithful like you never start demanding more from their leaders, their quality will never improve. Kerry's got even less presonallity than Gore. Good luck in November.

Democrats, of course, don't have any attack groups...

Thanks, but Bush needs it more than Kerry does!

I am absolutely amazed and stunned at the press this issue is generating. Swift Vote Veteran's for Truth is funded to the tune of $158K according to opensecrets.org.

Now wouldn't they be characterized as "the poor" and George Soros pouring $12.6 million into 527 funding qualify him as "the RICH"? Soros' funding that does nothing but bash Bush but that's "getting the message out"? There's no bias in any of that? It's all truth? Yet the SBVT must be silenced because they're lying?

The reason Kerry is crying about this is that it's working. It's sticking. It's hard to discredit 300 decorated veterans that have 60+ Purple Hearts and dozens of various awards amongst them. Fine, one pulls out, another changes some details on his statement. Political pressure does that to people that come forward not seeking money, damages or fame.

I want to know why John Kerry doesn't cry about the $97 million dollars the top 3 anti-Bush 527's have spent telling half-truths to absolute lies. He can't take the heat from $157k in political speech and one book? What a pussy, some shaq'fuing war hero he is.

Meanwhile Bush put up with books from a former terrorist czar, who lied, Bob Woodward's book both of which were given 60 Minutes stories. He put up with over $100 million in pure hatred from 527 groups. The nightly news on the big three has done over 70 stories this year on his National Guard service that all stated he was given an honorable discharge. We had the press and cacophony of Farenheit 9/11. Every mainstream publication and network did more pieces on the "horrors" of Arab men wearing panties on their heads in prison than the beheading of Americans and now Kerry thinks he has it bad?

What a whimp.

[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark'] What a pussy, some shaq'fuing war hero he is.[/quote]

We already know that war heroes don't commit atrocities, and most especially don't describe their service as committing atrocities.

You don't mean statements like THIS do you???

WINTER SOLDIER INVESTIGATION

I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command....

They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.

We call this investigation the "Winter Soldier Investigation." The term "Winter Soldier" is a play on words of Thomas Paine in 1776 when he spoke of the Sunshine Patriot and summertime soldiers who deserted at Valley Forge because the going was rough.

We who have come here to Washington have come here because we f eel we have to be winter soldiers now. We could come back to this country; we could be quiet; we could hold our silence; we could not tell what went on in Vietnam, but we feel because of what threatens this country, the fact that the crimes threaten it, not reds, and not redcoats but the crimes which we are committing that threaten it, that we have to speak out.
Link

PAD, I still say you're secretly working for the Democrats...

Kerry's Winter Soldier testimony just makes him seem more presidential. He had the courage to come home and speak out against a war that was going horribly wrong. That takes a brave man. I have yet to see anything from Bush that would put him in the same class as Kerry.

[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']I am absolutely amazed and stunned at the press this issue is generating. Swift Vote Veteran's for Truth is funded to the tune of $158K according to opensecrets.org.

Now wouldn't they be characterized as "the poor" and George Soros pouring $12.6 million into 527 funding qualify him as "the RICH"? Soros' funding that does nothing but bash Bush but that's "getting the message out"? There's no bias in any of that? It's all truth? Yet the SBVT must be silenced because they're lying?

The reason Kerry is crying about this is that it's working. It's sticking. It's hard to discredit 300 decorated veterans that have 60+ Purple Hearts and dozens of various awards amongst them. Fine, one pulls out, another changes some details on his statement. Political pressure does that to people that come forward not seeking money, damages or fame.

I want to know why John Kerry doesn't cry about the $97 million dollars the top 3 anti-Bush 527's have spent telling half-truths to absolute lies. He can't take the heat from $157k in political speech and one book? What a pussy, some shaq'fuing war hero he is.

Meanwhile Bush put up with books from a former terrorist czar, who lied, Bob Woodward's book both of which were given 60 Minutes stories. He put up with over $100 million in pure hatred from 527 groups. The nightly news on the big three has done over 70 stories this year on his National Guard service that all stated he was given an honorable discharge. We had the press and cacophony of Farenheit 9/11. Every mainstream publication and network did more pieces on the "horrors" of Arab men wearing panties on their heads in prison than the beheading of Americans and now Kerry thinks he has it bad?

What a whimp.[/quote]

And this is the bind that Republicans hope to put Kerry in. If he doesn't respond to these vicious and false attacks, he appears weak.

But now it seems if he does respond to these attacks, PAD and other Repubs are going to try and bitch that Kerry's picking on the little guy.

Maybe if these guys were telling the truth, such an argument might wash. But they aren't. I note PAD doesn't mention that the Washington Post has proven that one key member, Larry Thurlow, is a liar, simply by taking a quick look at his service record.

Mind you, all this is about a guy who surely had the connections to get out of serving in Vietnam -- like Bush did -- but instead went, served honorably, took enemy fire, was wounded, saved lives and was awarded medals for his meritorious service. And PAD has the balls to call him a "whimp."

BTW, I agree with MBE -- Kerry should put up that "Winter Soldier" statement anywhere he can. It's more eloquent, more heartfelt and more Presidential than anything I've heard Bush say. Certainly it took more guts to say that than Bush has ever had.

I'd love for the Winter Soldier testimony to be made mainstream. I'll take the reaction of the public any day of the week you care to give it. I want the conclusion of that testimony where he admits to commiting the same kind of attrocities.

Kerry is a crybaby. Pure and simple. He's the one that made his service in Vietnam an issue. He's the one that put it on the front burner. I've stated countless times that I think his service shouldn't be an issue that his Senate record is much better political fodder. My ONLY issue with Kerry's Vietnam service is what he said on the floor of the Senate claiming he was in Cambodia on Christmas Eve of 1968 while President Nixon (Who wasn't inagurated until January of 1969.) denied any American troops where in Cambodia. Oh.... and being shot at numerous parties including the ARVANs and Khmer Rouge (The Khmer Rouge who didn't even exist until 1970.) also made me snicker.

Hey, I've said it time and time again. He put on the uniform, he served, regs said he did his job and he was honrably discharged. Good enough for me. Kerry made his service the central part of his acceptance speech and therefore the campaign. He opened himself up for this.

[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']I'd love for the Winter Soldier testimony to be made mainstream. I'll take the reaction of the public any day of the week you care to give it. I want the conclusion of that testimony where he admits to commiting the same kind of attrocities.

Kerry is a crybaby. Pure and simple. He's the one that made his service in Vietnam an issue. He's the one that put it on the front burner. I've stated countless times that I think his service shouldn't be an issue that his Senate record is much better political fodder. My ONLY issue with Kerry's Vietnam service is what he said on the floor of the Senate claiming he was in Cambodia on Christmas Eve of 1968 while President Nixon (Who wasn't inagurated until January of 1969.) denied any American troops where in Cambodia. Oh.... and being shot at numerous parties including the ARVANs and Khmer Rouge (The Khmer Rouge who didn't even exist until 1970.) also made me snicker.

Hey, I've said it time and time again. He put on the uniform, he served, regs said he did his job and he was honrably discharged. Good enough for me. Kerry made his service the central part of his acceptance speech and therefore the campaign. He opened himself up for this.[/quote]

So being proud of your military service opens you up for lies and smears about said service? That's really sick thinking, PAD. No one deserves to have their military service smeared, particularly someone who served as honorably as Kerry.

And tell me this -- if he weren't fighting back, what would you be saying then? I can guess you would be arguing that the charges must be true, since Kerry isn't saying anything. You're trying to make him damned if he does and damned if he doesn't, and as I said earlier, in this case that doesn't wash.

[quote name='dennis_t']So being proud of your military service opens you up for lies and smears about said service? That's really sick thinking, PAD. No one deserves to have their military service smeared, particularly someone who served as honorably as Kerry.
[/quote]

Well then I guess your preciously pure Democratic party shouldn't have been bashing Bush and his millitary service for months earlier this year, eh? No, the Dems would NEVER try to smear anyone...

And by Kerry's own words, he did NOT serve honorably. That was the point of the Winter Soldier speech.

[quote name='bmulligan'][quote name='dennis_t']So being proud of your military service opens you up for lies and smears about said service? That's really sick thinking, PAD. No one deserves to have their military service smeared, particularly someone who served as honorably as Kerry.
[/quote]

Well then I guess your preciously pure Democratic party shouldn't have been bashing Bush and his millitary service for months earlier this year, eh? No, the Dems would NEVER try to smear anyone...

And by Kerry's own words, he did NOT serve honorably. That was the point of the Winter Soldier speech.[/quote]

Maybe the story wouldn't last if Bush would release all his records like he promised. He still cannot account for where he was. This is why the AP is suing under the freedom of information act to get his records.

[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark'] (The Khmer Rouge who didn't even exist until 1970.) also made me snicker.[/quote]

Once again you distort the facts.

They started a major insurgency in 1970, but that is not the year they were founded.

I think you missed this, PAD, or intentionally overlooked it.

You "proof" John Kerry is a liar is infact itself a lie.

[quote name='ZarathosNY']Maybe the story wouldn't last if Bush would release all his records like he promised. He still cannot account for where he was. This is why the AP is suing under the freedom of information act to get his records. [/quote]

He did authorize the release, earlier this jear - Feb or March, I believe. Yet McAulliffe wouldn't let go of the opportunity to smear Bush

[quote name='bmulligan'][quote name='dennis_t']So being proud of your military service opens you up for lies and smears about said service? That's really sick thinking, PAD. No one deserves to have their military service smeared, particularly someone who served as honorably as Kerry.
[/quote]

Well then I guess your preciously pure Democratic party shouldn't have been bashing Bush and his millitary service for months earlier this year, eh? No, the Dems would NEVER try to smear anyone...

And by Kerry's own words, he did NOT serve honorably. That was the point of the Winter Soldier speech.[/quote]

Man, bmulligan, you crack me up. "Your preciously pure Democratic party." When are you going to threaten to get me and my little dog, too?

As far as Bush's military service, I don't recall any Democrats lying or smearing. They've asked solid questions about where Bush was, given that it appears he went AWOL, and quite frankly those questions should have been addressed in the 2000 election. To this day, Bush hasn't been able to answer these questions definitively, even with the records he has released. There are still gaps that just shouldn't be there, had he really served as he said.

The problem with Republicans and right-wingers seems to be they can't differentiate between solid, honest questioning and out-and-out lying.

Re: Kerry's own words, read the speech again. He served honorably in a dishonorable war. What more can you ask of a man who faces that circumstance?

[quote name='dennis_t']
Re: Kerry's own words, read the speech again. He served honorably in a dishonorable war. What more can you ask of a man who faces that circumstance?[/quote]

"There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed, in that I took part in shootings in free-fire zones, I conducted harassment and interdiction fire, I used .50-caliber machine guns which were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search-and-destroy missions, in the burning of villages....

Wanna take a stab at whose Senate testimony that is?

This is why this issuse should have been a non-issue. My dispute again.... is not with his service; 3 Purple Hearts, Bronze & Silver Star. I'm not disputing his medals, how he won them etc..

BTW, you should see the new Swift Boat Veterans For Truth ad.... this one makes the first look like a walk in the park as far as answering the questions raised. Just about the entire ad is commentary of soldiers with the above testimony as the voice over.

I'm telling you, this issue is going to sink him. Not the medal question but the war protest/attrocities testimonies. Mark my words, his actions after the Vietnam war in relation to that war is the defining issue of the campaign. The only thing that can throw this topic off the pages of newspapers now is a major terrorist attack.

The Kerry campaign calls on a publisher to 'withdraw book' written by group of veterans, claiming veterans are lying about Kerry's service in Vietnam and operating as a front organization for Bush. Kerry campaign has told Salon.com that the publisher of UNFIT FOR COMMAND is 'retailing a hoax'... 'No publisher should want to be selling books with proven falsehoods in them,' Kerry campaign spokesman Chad Clanton tells the online mag.

Now he wants the book burned and will sue to get it removed. He's losing big on this issue. When the next ad hits he's going to be taking on water like the Titanic, I'm telling you, this group is going to sink Kerry with his own words.

[quote name='bmulligan'][quote name='ZarathosNY']Maybe the story wouldn't last if Bush would release all his records like he promised. He still cannot account for where he was. This is why the AP is suing under the freedom of information act to get his records. [/quote]

He did authorize the release, earlier this jear - Feb or March, I believe. Yet McAulliffe wouldn't let go of the opportunity to smear Bush[/quote]

Gee, except that the records that would actually prove Bush *did* serve were *gasp* mysteriously destroyed. And it's strange that his records were purged of any potentially embarassing information when he was running for governor, yeah? Oh, and there's the physical he missed, but can't explain, and the lie he told that he continued to fly with his squadron for "several" years, when he didn't manage more than another year and a month or two.

If Bush is going to attack Kerry's record, directly or through these lying "Veterans for Truth" bastards, Bush's record should be fair game. But somehow, they've managed to take his "service" off the table by two-timing some notion of "honor." Bush hasn't been able to prove he served his whole time. Ever. It's not McAuliffe wanting to continue to smear him, though Bush certainly makes it easy enough. But it's not a smear when it's true. Bush has never proven he completed his duty. Ever.

seppo

[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']You don't mean statements like THIS do you???[/quote]

How did you guess?

yawns. PAD you know the ONLY reason that Kerry made the military service is because Republicans "pride" themselves on caring about the military which is a crock of shit. WHO from either major party has supported giving veterans the help they need? The answer to my knowledge is neither. You don't care about Veterans when it comes to the pocketbook and neither does Bush when it comes down to it except paying minimum wage or less for troops overall to cover the weapons I'm sure.
If I was President I'd attack prison spending first to avoid people like YOU giving me shit for cutting the military by 10-20%. And yes rehabilitation CAN exist. People NEED to pay back their debt to society.
Personally I care about if Kerry did Mylai but I go back to the Civil Rights argument and if you cast Kerry in the abuse light Bush is only slightly better than him and he didn't even truly serve in the first place. On a further note and in defense of MOST human beings sadly enough do you remember the study of students taking care of other students as prison guards with no training and what happened there? Very FEW people objected.

[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']
Now he wants the book burned and will sue to get it removed. He's losing big on this issue. When the next ad hits he's going to be taking on water like the Titanic, I'm telling you, this group is going to sink Kerry with his own words.[/quote]

The book has been proved to contain lies, PAD. Another book, one on Bush, was found to contain lies during the 2000 elections and you know what? The publisher pulled it. Why shouldn't this be handled the same way?

For more information on the book, its lies and the connections between the Bush campaign and the Swift Boat Vets, read this article: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/20/politics/campaign/20swift.html.

Here's one excerpt I particularly like:

Several of those now declaring Mr. Kerry "unfit" had lavished praise on him, some as recently as last year.

In an unpublished interview in March 2003 with Mr. Kerry's authorized biographer, Douglas Brinkley, provided by Mr. Brinkley to The New York Times, Roy F. Hoffmann, a retired rear admiral and a leader of the group, allowed that he had disagreed with Mr. Kerry's antiwar positions but said, "I am not going to say anything negative about him." He added, "He's a good man."

In a profile of the candidate that ran in The Boston Globe in June 2003, Mr. Hoffmann approvingly recalled the actions that led to Mr. Kerry's Silver Star: "It took guts, and I admire that."

George Elliott, one of the Vietnam veterans in the group, flew from his home in Delaware to Boston in 1996 to stand up for Mr. Kerry during a tough re-election fight, declaring at a news conference that the action that won Mr. Kerry a Silver Star was "an act of courage." At that same event, Adrian L. Lonsdale, another Vietnam veteran now speaking out against Mr. Kerry, supported him with a statement about the "bravado and courage of the young officers that ran the Swift boats."

"Senator Kerry was no exception," Mr. Lonsdale told the reporters and cameras assembled at the Charlestown Navy Yard. "He was among the finest of those Swift boat drivers."

Those comments echoed the official record. In an evaluation of Mr. Kerry in 1969, Mr. Elliott, who was one of his commanders, ranked him as "not exceeded" in 11 categories, including moral courage, judgment and decisiveness, and "one of the top few" - the second-highest distinction - in the remaining five. In written comments, he called Mr. Kerry "unsurpassed," "beyond reproach" and "the acknowledged leader in his peer group."

One more point, PAD: for someone who just yesterday was bemoaning the fact we aren't talking issues because of all this rot, you sure are willing to dive into the muck with the rest, aren't you?

PAD murdered children in Kuwait so he has no room to talk.