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So, our military kills civilians...

Posted by joeboosauce, 06 April 2010 · 829 views

So, this is horrid shit news for today but its just like another episode of a sitcom. People will forget after a day or two. It's not like people (who don't hide their head in the sand) didn't know this goes on with our military. This incident is only out there and known because it was leaked. If you don't know by now, here are sources on this story. Basically, Wikileaks.org released a bombshell of a video depicting US troops opening fire into a crowd of civilians who have no weapons. The "weapons" are the oh so lethal video camera and tripod of journalists on the ground. There was no firefight that the military claimed after their "investigation." The military would not release the video to Reuters who the 2 journalists belonged to. And further, the soldiers shot at a van of people trying to help a wounded man and they shot 30mm rounds into 2 children. Yay USA! If you watch the attitude, especially the end, it reveals a callousness as the soldiers show no remorse. They even laugh and hope that the wounded civilians try to shoot them with the nonexistent gun. And command sanctions this all the way.

Our culture has truly become perverse. We are desensitized to the horrors of war thanks to our gov't, "news" media, and entertainment media. This includes video games. The soldiers really sound like what you would hear playing COD4/5/6/any FPS on XBox Live/PSN. But, isn't this what is needed in to maintain a highly militarized society? One that supports invasions, occupations, covert interventions, death squads/terrorists (El Salvador, Nicaragua, etc), drone bombings, fomenting civil wars in Africa and elsewhere, is the #1 arms supplier to the world, and I could go on and on.

Well, rant over. I would be interested in hearing your thoughts for and against mine or whatever is on your mind. Although, the machine has conditioned us to steer clear of important issues that concern our society and go... play video games?

Here are some sources on this topic:
N.Y. Times, Weekly Standard join in a falsehood By Glenn Greenwald
http://www.salon.com...yths/index.html

Coverage and interview with Wikileaks founder:
http://www.democracy...ape_us_military

Full video:


Brief article:
http://www.thenation...rel=emailNation

US gov't is attempting to shut down Wikileaks
http://www.huffingto...a_b_512050.html

From the Democracy Now interview, I thought this really sums up this incident and our military apparatus in general:

"These are not bad apples. This is standard practice. You can hear it from the tones of the voices of the pilots that this is in fact another day at the office. These pilots have evidently and gunners have evidently become so corrupted, morally corrupted, by the war that they are looking for excuses to kill. That is why you hear this segment, “Come on, buddy! Just pick up a weapon,” when Saeed, one of the Reuters employees, is crawling on the curb. They don’t want him for intelligence value to understand the situation. The man is clearly of no threat whatsoever. He’s prostate on the ground. Everyone else has been killed. They just want an excuse to kill. And it’s some kind of—appears to me to be some kind of video game mentality where they just want to get a high score, get their kill count up. And later on you’ll hear them proudly proclaiming how they killed twelve to fifteen people."






I don't even know where to start with civilians trying to understand military operations. I spent seven months in Iraq in 2005. I don't have any horror stories either direction, my work was largely boring. I do know that more than once, Marines in my unit went out of their way to avoid civilian casualties. For example, we ran convoy security three or four times a week. Under our rules of engagement, civilian vehicles that approached within a certain distance of the convoy, could be fired upon because there was a chance that they were VBIEDs. At least once a week, some Iraqi would get a crazy bug up their ass and try to pass the convoy, coming within "shoot to kill" distance of the convoy. Not once did we light up a car. Marines were risking their lives on the gamble that it was just a confused driver and not a VBIED. There was another incident outside our base's fence where we could have shot someone because she had approached our outer towers and seemed to be holding a bundle to her chest (a possible suicide bomb or vest). She got close enough to kill several Marines (if she had been carrying a bomb) before one of our interpreters was able to get her to stop and lay down. Turns out she was mentally handicapped but there was no way to tell that from outer appearances. Again, Marines gambled their lives to avoid killing a civilian.

1. No mention (that I've seen thus far) addresses the tone of the soldier's voice as he is calling for medevac for the wounded girl. He sounds concerned for the well-being of her. The children were not left in harm's way. They were carried, running, away from the battlefield. If those involved were simply heartless killers, the children would have been left in the van or shot.

2. If a member of the military, any military, simply broke down in tears whenever something fucked up happened (like witnessing civilians being accidentally wounded or killed), the military would not function. No one knows what the soldiers involved were actually feeling. All that is here is bits of footage taken during and immediately following the engagement. PTSD doesn't set in in combat zones, it sets in months or years later. Are there some crazy, evil bastards that slip into the military? Sure. Same with every job.

3. Civilians don't get military medevac priority. Sorry. Just another ugly part of war. The military doesn't have an infinite number of helicopters on call to ferry everyone (including military personnel) to hospitals. I had a buddy in Iraq take shrapnel during a convoy and didn't get seen by a doctor for hours, once the convoy arrived at its destination.

4. Decisions are easy to make when you have essentially unlimited time to study a situation. That never, ever happens in combat. If you take too long to make decisions in combat, you lose the initiative and the enemy begins dictating what you do and then you lose. Read up on the basic rules of maneuver warfare and the OODA loop for further clarification. The basic rule is that speed is king. In this case, it means that the pilots did not have time (or the optics from what I can see) to study the situation for several minutes before acting. Time is a leisure enjoyed by civilians, not by the military in combat.

I dunno, I don't really care if I convince anyone, I just want to impart some perspective. There will always be those who find the worst in anything that a group they don't care for does. Semper Fi
And now I need a beer.
I agree with Spyder187 you dont like what is going on then get GTFO of America if you are not happy. There are plenty of other countries out there that may share your view.

Hey maaaaaannnnnnnn sttttoooppppp figgghhttting and get high mmmaaaaannnnnn!!!!!!
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Funny thing is when the the towers fell where were you? Go to the families of the people that died that day and share your opinion with them I think they would love to "talk" with you. Or more to the point go talk to the families of soldiers that died for our country. You don't have the fucking balls cause you know you would get your ass kicked lol.

Listen I understand what you are trying to point out with your blog and yes that video is extreme but how different is it when those same savages kill innocent americans plenty of reporters have been taken away by then and killed. What do you have to say about that? You think they want to sit down and talk to them? No, they kill them by beheading and why cause they are savages. SAVAGES!!!

No, they kill them by beheading and why cause they are savages. SAVAGES!!!


RSu4hOLYrXk
@Kilm - lol nice find I forgot about that movie. But I also like how you still left in my quote about "beheading".
Look. He talks in bumper stickers that are only slightly less intellectually developed than the images he typically communicates in.

Here's my version of the spoiler spider for Shimra:
9/11!
AMERICA! Fuck YEAH!
LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT!
SUPPORT THE TROOPS!

There, shimra, I typed out your response for you. I didn't see any other ribbon magnets on Hyundai Sonatas today, so I'm afraid I'm all tapped out of fresh euphemisms for you to use as a substitute for an idea.
The military men and women have to go through more then both you and I will ever have to go through while they are in a war zone. Are they heartless people? Nope, but if you look at the video at 330 it looked like the guy had a RPG and guns. If you are in a helicopter patrolling and you see what looks like an RPG but you second guess yourself and its actually an RPG then you are dead. Your squad mates are dead. You don't get to come home and see your family ever again...When and if that happend will they do a fucking video about how that person 2nd guessed himself or show there children crying in the street no. But here we see it at the start of the video and they show that nonstop in the news.

The terrorist have done worse things and continue to do worse. Do we see that shit? Nope, support this war or don't. The best news is that no one but you cares about your opinion. But when you make a bias bullshit statement about the military being savages I bet you wouldn't say that to a Marine that has just gotten home from a warzone would you? Fuck no you wouldn't, so go watch Loose Change again
Jesus Christ, Spyder and Shimra, your argument is basically "Um...(doesn't know what to say)...Fuck OFF, YOU AIN'T A TRUE PATRIOT, ETC ETC."

You proceed to show a picture of a useless hippie to try to marginalize the viewpoints opposing you, which would be akin to using pictures of rambling dumb-as-Fuck tea partiers to represent you, except that in this case I honestly don't think it would be inaccurate.
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Shimrra, the extremists that use beheading are a small subset of the people that were killed in this clusterfuck endeavor.

It's respectable that you are so loyal to the US, but try to think before you speak. It seems as if you parrot exactly what you hear on Glenn Beck, accepting it as 100% infallible truth.
Halo said everything that needs to be said. It's very unfortunate that innocent people had to die, but when you see a group of people, some carrying weapons, you have to assume they're all viable threats, and not just journalists following along. When you're sitting in a helicopter with orders being tossed left and right, what appears to be armed insurgents, and an order to fire, you can't simply ask each target on the ground what they're doing and why they're carrying weapons or with someone carrying weapons. It's not that simple. And as sick as it is, if you don't find some way to distance yourself from the harsh reality that you're killing people, you'll never survive. That's why they sound like they're playing a video game. I imagine if it was a group of school children it would be different. They wouldn't just fire bursts into the crowd and say "Look at all those dead bastards! Good shooting!", but a group of insurgents is different. It's not pretty, but that's the way it's been since the beginning of man.
"where were you... when they flew into the towers..."

"...where were you... when they built that ladder to heaven..."

- southpark.
@blaked569 - nothing is 100% infallible truth but again what we see is a clip. What you dont seem to understand is the simple fact that we, as people, here behind our keyboards safe in our homes are not there in the battlefield. Unless you are there at that moment who are we to say anything.

Think before I speak? Just because you don't like what I wrote doesn't mean I did not think it through. Instead of criticizing peoples opinion why don't you add some of your own?

Shimrra, the extremists that use beheading are a small subset of the people that were killed in this clusterFuck endeavor.

And the number of armed forces that kill non-combatants, by accident or on purpose, are a small subset of the military troops some of you are calling monsters. Yet here we are with "America is evil" and "American troops kill innocents"...go figure. :roll:

The fact that people not fighting die in military actions isn't a surprise...frankly, the real surprise is that more innocents don't die. When troops are sent somewhere to fight a war they don't necessarily agree with and their opponents tend to dress like non-combatants and don't follow the usual rules of engagement, they tend to be more aggressive with attacks and responses to attacks. These troops are being attacked left and right, sometimes by the population they were told they were sent there to aid, and they just want to make it back home to loved ones. Does this excuse those that just cut loose on obvious civilians? Nope, but it does make me begin to understand how someone in a high pressure situation can mistake a tripod for a RPG or something else for some other weapon from a distance. And war can change a person, make even a good person warp into someone that finds killing "the enemy" giggle worthy. People cope with horrible situations in strange ways.

And before we continue the American military bash fest, could someone tell me which military force out there kills other armed forces only and has never harmed innocents in military actions? Go ahead and name this perfect army...I defy you to. =;

Oh, and I see how the posts go here...
Blog author: American military = evil!
Post: I disagree!
Blog author: You don't agree with me? You're wrong & uninformed! Go read the biased sources *I* read instead of your biased sources! La-la-la-I can't heeeaaarrrr yooooouuuuu!

Way to be open to dialog and debate...joeboosuace, you really don't know nearly as much as you think you do. :roll:
The spotters on the ground indicated that it was clear to shoot these so called "civilians." Considering this "enemy" doesn't fight in clear uniforms to help identify them as the enemy from your average civilian in that area I actually felt the control and level of restraint considering the arsenal available to our soldiers was well handled. Personally I would have fired some rockets at them myself to make sure there was nothing left but a crater in the sand, but I tend to be very passionate about such matters.

In these "modern" wars it is going to be very difficult to establish who is the enemy and who is a civilian and who is a enemy posing as a civilian. If everyone had a red name over their head to indicate who you have to shoot then I'm sure it would be much easier to sort out.
Savages......

What else do you call a group of people that stone women for showing their faces or even their ankles in public?

What else would you call a group of people that are willing to kill you and everyone you know because you believe in a different god?

What else would you call a group of people that would gladly strap explosives not only onto themselves but onto small children and even the mentally handicapped and send them to die jut to strike fear into others?

What else would you call a group of people that cut the clitoris off of young girls so they will never experience the pleasure of sex because they are simply viewed as baby making machines?

Yes, thats right. SAVAGES.
I hate to see civilians getting killed / hurt. These things happen, and that's just the risk that you run, when you're working on a battlefield. What else could have been done in this situation? You wait until fired upon and you may never get another shot.
Shimrra and Spyder FTW.
I support out troops using blunt force castration on the enemy. Find that on a bumper sticker.
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