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CAGcast #270: Man Down


#1 CheapyD   Head Cheap Ass Administrators   17102 Posts   Joined 12.3 Years Ago  

Posted 10 February 2012 - 09:39 AM

Wombat hatches Kickstarter schemes, Shipwreck looks to take home the gold, and CheapyD doesn't have to sniff underwear. Also, Kingdoms of Amalur talk and discussion on the worst job in the gaming industry.

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#2 Bezerker   Bezerker Barrage! CAGiversary!   6618 Posts   Joined 10.1 Years Ago  

Posted 10 February 2012 - 11:00 AM

Best way to start a Friday when you sit in a cubicle for 8 hours

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#3 BradGrenz   CAG Veteran CAGiversary!   26 Posts   Joined 4.8 Years Ago  

BradGrenz

Posted 10 February 2012 - 11:03 AM

Dude, Wombat, you've got to think about the timing of this Double Fine Kickstarter project. It launched while Tim Schaefer was attending DICE. It's pretty clear this was intended to be some kind of experiment/proof of concept. It doesn't really have anything to do with whether they could have independently funded the project themselves. It was about discovering how viable crowd-sourcing could be as a potential avenue to obtain funding for themselves, and other developers of a similar size and pedigree.

Maybe next time they won't have to sign an exclusivity deal with Microsoft to get something like Trenched made, or need a wealthy fan to make PC ports of games like Stacking and Costume Quest.

With fans basically acting like venture capital, big questions remain about whether "contributors" ought to in fact be considered investors with the right to share in potential profits, but this particular project has clearly gone far past everyone's expectations. Over time Kickstarter will probably have to evolve into something like Kiva with funding caps and returns on investment, but this is a really fascinating first step down this road.

Edited by BradGrenz, 10 February 2012 - 11:24 AM.


#4 Hobotalk   CAG Veteran CAG Veteran   24 Posts   Joined 6.3 Years Ago  

Hobotalk

Posted 10 February 2012 - 11:37 AM

Hey wombat,

In regards to Double Fine's Kickstarter; I would say they have a lot of incentive to produce a good game. The immediate financial risk may not be there but there would be a monumental backlash from fans who contributed money to this project if they did spend $100K making a shit game.

I would also consider that the reason this is working for Double Fine is because they have a reputation (to their fans) of making good games and people trust them to make this point and click adventure game. If they mess up it could very well cause the demise of Double Fine, loss of jobs and certainly loss of any trust or enthusiasm people hold for the company. I'm sure Tim Schafer would pull through but things would definitely take a turn for the worse.

Just my thoughts. I think it's pretty good that they're doing this as my current understanding of the industry is that publishers may have too much influence on certain parts of game production.

#5 LiK   Internet Superstar CAGiversary!   2297 Posts   Joined 8.5 Years Ago  

Posted 10 February 2012 - 01:20 PM

Man, I would love to see Shippy coaching in action.

About Kickstarter, I think it was a combination of experimentation and also seeing the interest in the game as well. We have to remember that they're doing this for a point-and-click adventure game which isn't hugely profitable these days. And asking fans to back them, allows them a lot more freedom without pressure from the publishers. I understand Wombat's point but maybe he was too critical about it. I don't think Double Fine knew they would get such a huge amount of money for it. Their original goal was $400k after all.

I think other companies have done something similar. For example, Telltale allows people to preorder their adventure games on their site when they're not even made or completed. Remember that they allow you to preorder full seasons like their Monkey Island and BTTF games and you'll get bonuses like DVD versions and special packaging. It's not all that different than the bonuses offered from people on Kickstarter.

Btw, I think Cheapy should check out KoA: Reckoning. While I agree that the game isn't quite as charming or funny as characters in Fable or Skyrim, I really enjoy the combat and some sidestories. It's a pretty game too. I love the look of it. Oh yea Shippy, the game allows you to experiment with different powers and weapons so if you find the combat a grind, switch up the weapons, they're a lot of fun. I've been messing around with various skills and they really mix them up quite well.

Edited by LiK, 10 February 2012 - 01:43 PM.

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#6 Porksta   Sillier Mofo CAGiversary!   1661 Posts   Joined 9.9 Years Ago  

Posted 10 February 2012 - 01:47 PM

Here is a good site for XBL whiners:

http://whywasibanned.com/
I am famous for getting CheapyD to watch Swollen Tip while he was broadcasting live.

#7 Lightning War   Baller on a Budget CAGiversary!   392 Posts   Joined 5.9 Years Ago  

Lightning War

Posted 10 February 2012 - 02:08 PM

What exactly do you mean by categorizing the Internet celebrities? Almost everyone I saw on the thread did. Not giving the DLC away when you said you were is kind of a dick move.

Also, sorry the show thread didn't please you Wombat. I don't know what you expect in a feedback thread where you're giving shit away. Of course people are going to hear that and just bullshit it to try to get free stuff. Posting a new thread for a giveaway is probably your best bet.

On a slightly leas negative note I do indeed want to see a montage of Shipwreck coaching, ideally narrated by you three.

Finally, Fuck yes to Tiny Wings Wombat. I love that shit.

Edited by Lightning War, 10 February 2012 - 02:47 PM.


#8 mkernan   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   3190 Posts   Joined 8.4 Years Ago  

Posted 10 February 2012 - 02:08 PM

To Wombat's views on the Double Fine Kickstarter project:

I think the key thing to keep in mind is that this shows that crowd-funding a game is entirely possible. If you look out across the landscape of gaming today, you have a handful of well-funded AAA titles and a bustling indie scene, but "the middle" is becoming increasingly sparse. The risks of making games is all too clear, with reports of studio closures and publisher woes becoming more and more common. Granted, Double Fine is an established studio with a well-known studio head, but the most intriguing element of this experiment is that it shows that games can be made without publisher involvement. Seems like a pretty promising proof of concept to me.

Another thing Wombat should keep in mind is that the entire studio most likely won't be working on this single crowd-funded adventure game. The past year or two has made it pretty obvious that Double Fine's staff breaks into smaller teams and works on multiple titles concurrently.
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#9 pete_brasler   CAG Veteran CAGiversary!   2 Posts   Joined 6.0 Years Ago  

pete_brasler

Posted 10 February 2012 - 02:35 PM

Just picked up Kingdoms of Amalur today - before listening to the podcast. Dammit - I'm still looking forward to it!

#10 Sgt Barone   CAG 4 Life CAGiversary!   1931 Posts   Joined 6.8 Years Ago  

Sgt Barone

Posted 10 February 2012 - 02:41 PM

Just downloaded!
<p>Here's to a great year of gaming in 2015 :beer:

#11 shipwreck   CAG Reviews Editor Super Moderators   7528 Posts   Joined 11.8 Years Ago  

Posted 10 February 2012 - 02:56 PM

Just picked up Kingdoms of Amalur today - before listening to the podcast. Dammit - I'm still looking forward to it!


It's a good game, it just needs a little extra to make it great.
"Red-Headed Pain In The Ass" - Wombat
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#12 Curufinwe   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   971 Posts   Joined 6.3 Years Ago  

Posted 10 February 2012 - 03:04 PM

It's a good game, it just needs a little extra to make it great.


If it just had awful combat and tons of bugs it could be as good as Skyrim. :)

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#13 dreamparacite   CAG Veteran CAGiversary!   35 Posts   Joined 9.0 Years Ago  

dreamparacite

Posted 10 February 2012 - 03:21 PM

Wombat, the game double fine was trying to make is a classic adventure game so of course its going to be risky. That alone is great justification to kickstart the project so those who are interested can fund the niche game they want. I thinly Wombat may be a tad jealous :\

#14 Thomas96   I am Thomaticus! CAGiversary!   5961 Posts   Joined 11.1 Years Ago  

Thomas96

Posted 10 February 2012 - 03:25 PM

Great a new show! HAND DOWN! MAN DOWN!
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#15 GamerInterface   CAG Veteran CAG Veteran   9 Posts   Joined 6.8 Years Ago  

GamerInterface

Posted 10 February 2012 - 03:37 PM

Great show, great show. I get Wombat's point on DF, but I think the response is that going to Kickstarter has advantages *besides• the fundraising. It's almost like having a focus group that pays you to respond to pre-release gameplay descriptions.

And Cheapy, be a mensch and go help your boy clean up after a mess. I think Wombat and Shipwreck can hold their own for a few minutes while you go help him out.

#16 polly   Karma Policeman CAGiversary!   381 Posts   Joined 9.4 Years Ago  

Posted 10 February 2012 - 03:37 PM

/pause cagcast

Wow, only Wombat would bitch about something as awesome as the Double Fine kickstarter news. Wombat, why do you think dev studios even go to publishers in the first place? Because they need funding. That was seriously like 10 minutes of Wombat ranting out of his ass. I feel dumber now for listening. An iconic dev literally making a game for the fans and you still have to find something to complain about. You small bitter cynical man.

/resume cagcast
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#17 Porksta   Sillier Mofo CAGiversary!   1661 Posts   Joined 9.9 Years Ago  

Posted 10 February 2012 - 04:05 PM

/pause cagcast

Wow, only Wombat would bitch about something as awesome as the Double Fine kickstarter news. Wombat, why do you think dev studios even go to publishers in the first place? Because they need funding. That was seriously like 10 minutes of Wombat ranting out of his ass. I feel dumber now for listening. An iconic dev literally making a game for the fans and you still have to find something to complain about. You small bitter cynical man.

/resume cagcast


He raised some good points. Wombat I mean.

I think Double Fine and maybe Valve would be the only companies that could pull this off. Could you imagine Activision doing this for MW4?
I am famous for getting CheapyD to watch Swollen Tip while he was broadcasting live.

#18 HungryButcher   CAG Veteran CAG Veteran   16 Posts   Joined 7.0 Years Ago  

HungryButcher

Posted 10 February 2012 - 04:15 PM

I agree with most everything Wombat said about Double Fine. I do think it's a good way to raise money, but it does feel a tad desperate. That's just my opinion. :)

#19 Fuzi0n   "What's a Nubian?" CAGiversary!   1045 Posts   Joined 8.0 Years Ago  

Posted 10 February 2012 - 04:26 PM

All the Wombat hate tells me this is going to be a good episode (they always are), can't wait to listen.

#20 meager   mooseknuckle? CAGiversary!   210 Posts   Joined 9.4 Years Ago  

Posted 10 February 2012 - 04:48 PM

My main problem with Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning is that it plays like a fanfic. It takes a bunch of pieces from other RPGs and doesn't really build anything on top of it. In fact, they were so insistant on mimicing their favorite games that they didn't bother to try and evolve with the genre like those other franchises have. For example, they still use the antiquated item repair that Elder Scrolls has dropped; and interacting with people is not dynamic, you have to wait for them to stand up before they start talking. It just makes the game feel dated.

And Ship, why didn't you talk about what you did for your birthday? Now I have to make something up for the Boatcrash Chronicles, and who knows how that will turn out...

#21 testudo   CAGERY! CAGiversary!   130 Posts   Joined 7.1 Years Ago  

Posted 10 February 2012 - 04:50 PM

Honestly this was one of the worst episodes ever, wombat actually did a valiant job to try to resuscitate it... and you didn't even answer my cagbag question!?!?

yeah the double fine thing is totally marketing. People do kickstarter to spread the word about their product/event, not because they need the money.

"I'm saving your future for a rainy day."
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#22 polly   Karma Policeman CAGiversary!   381 Posts   Joined 9.4 Years Ago  

Posted 10 February 2012 - 04:54 PM

He raised some good points. Wombat I mean.


He made, literally, no good points.

Shipwreck: "I think it's pretty clear Wombat doesn't know what he's talking about."

Truth.
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#23 basston3s   CAG Veteran CAGiversary!   61 Posts   Joined 7.5 Years Ago  

Posted 10 February 2012 - 04:56 PM

ok. I don't really have issues with Wombat's comments on Kickstarter. I do have issues with him claiming he has a story on Tim Schaefer and then saying "oh but I can't say it here." You went so far as to say he is a douche, might as well take the plunge in the name of entertainment. Besides, it's not like he would hunt you down to kick your ass. I'm sure he has had many a tale told on his douche baggery.

#24 Wombat   CAGcast or nothin CAGiversary!   2321 Posts   Joined 11.6 Years Ago  

Posted 10 February 2012 - 05:18 PM

ok. I don't really have issues with Wombat's comments on Kickstarter. I do have issues with him claiming he has a story on Tim Schaefer and then saying "oh but I can't say it here." You went so far as to say he is a douche, might as well take the plunge in the name of entertainment. Besides, it's not like he would hunt you down to kick your ass. I'm sure he has had many a tale told on his douche baggery.


I would love to tell the story, but honestly it is not my place to tell and it would hurt others that I do care about. But yes, I should not have brought it up.

#25 guardian_owl   Keeper of the CAG Shrine CAGiversary!   9211 Posts   Joined 11.2 Years Ago  

guardian_owl

Posted 10 February 2012 - 06:04 PM

To some extent I agree with Wombat, kickstarter should be used by people who legitimately have few if any options to raise funding for their project(s). A large % of the cash raised is likely from Double Fine fans who specifically went onto kickstarter to fund the project, but I am sure some portion of the cash is money from regular kickstarter visitors which was not spent on one of the other projects whose sole option for funding is kickstarter.

The extreme metaphor would be a person who makes a decent living, but periodically dresses up in ratty clothes and goes down to the soup kitchen for a free meal. Leave the free meal to those who need it.

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#26 Curufinwe   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   971 Posts   Joined 6.3 Years Ago  

Posted 10 February 2012 - 06:08 PM

Tim Schaefer sold poison milk to schoolchildren.

yeah the double fine thing is totally marketing. People do kickstarter to spread the word about their product/event, not because they need the money.


Some people may do it for publicity, but other people really do need the money. The Double Fine kickstarter is for one particular game that they probably wouldn't have made without getting funded by fans because point and click adventures aren't popular with publishers anymore. It's not the only game the studio is going to be working on in 2012.

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#27 Qwinn3   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   235 Posts   Joined 8.8 Years Ago  

Posted 10 February 2012 - 07:11 PM

Wow, I've been an avid listener since about episode 50 or so. I've been on this wagon for quite a long time and never have I found Wombat to be so angry, confused, mislead, wrong, etc.....

First of all if you are going to play devils advocate then please don't immediately follow that up with an "I feel" statement. Clearly if you feel that the whole Doublefine Kickstarter project is crap that's not really playing devils advocate. When playing devils advocate you should really be pointing out legitimate issues, not feelings. Good God!

Oh wait, if I didn't already feel dumber for having to listen to Wombats viewpoint on the Doublefine Kickstarter project I then get to hear him talk about the super exciting world of inventory management in Kingdoms of Amular. Let me say that again, INVENTORY MANAGEMENT. Really?

Holy shit Wombat, I love you and I'm going to chalk this one up to you not feeling well so please, for the sake of the Cagcast, please get well soon.

#28 jbug617   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   576 Posts   Joined 4.4 Years Ago  

Posted 10 February 2012 - 07:17 PM

Double Fine's smaller games seem to me they have a little Brutal Legend in them.

#29 billyok   CAG Veteran CAGiversary!   31 Posts   Joined 6.9 Years Ago  

Posted 10 February 2012 - 07:34 PM

Sour grapes city, Wombat. Good lord.

#30 Hobotalk   CAG Veteran CAG Veteran   24 Posts   Joined 6.3 Years Ago  

Hobotalk

Posted 10 February 2012 - 07:47 PM

Double Fine's smaller games seem to me they have a little Brutal Legend in them.


I'm pretty sure all of their smaller XBLA releases were built using the Brutal Legend Engine.