A question for the Democrats of this board. - When are the American people to blame?

MSI Magus

MSI Magus

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I tend to see a lot of excuse making from Democrats for the American people. Everything is the fault of Republicans, corporations, the corrupt and the rich. Nothing is ever the fault of the American people. Now I lean heavily liberal and I agree that corporations and congress have their hand in every pie that has went bad in this country. At the same time though I think the American people have their hand in every last pie too....and it was their own pie they ruined.

We the American people are the boss of all elected officials. When we put them in office we hire an employee. As the boss its our job to supervise the work of our employees. So if instead of watching over our employee we go back to our office and surf porn & celebrity gossip on the net, we cant then be surprised when we step back out of our office at the end of the day and find fighting employees and zero work done. Nor can we get angry when chuck from accounting who has had zero accountability for 30 years turns around!

So again my question for Democrats of the board is when does it become the fault of we the American people that everything is crashing and burning? If we do not educate ourselves when voting and then continue educating ourselves of the policy and positions those we elected are pushing...how are we not to blame? If we ignore the pollution and corruption corporations breed for generations....how are we not to blame? And if we sit on our asses watching mind numbing TV with our kids and setting such a bad example how are we not to blame for them being dumb shits just like us when they grow up?
 
Not sure what you are talking about. Most of the Dems I know do (ultimately) blame the American people for voting against their own interests and being too stupid to realize it.
 
[quote name='usickenme']Not sure what you are talking about. Most of the Dems I know do (ultimately) blame the American people for voting against their own interests and being too stupid to realize it.[/QUOTE]

I do not see it here very often. I see how "people are too tired and depressed from working long hard days" or how "they are a poor black youth who grew up in an urban ghetto so they were not given the same education/reality as me or you". Just look at the obesity topic, its full of blaming high fructose corn syrup, chemicals and corporations for us being fat. All those things contribute, but end of the day we the American people(myself included) still decide to eat way too freaking much and not educate ourselves nearly enough on food policy in the US.

Maybe I am wrong, but it just seems that the more educated a Democrat is the more likely he is to make excuse for your average white slob or average poor black youth.
 
[quote name='usickenme']Not sure what you are talking about. Most of the Dems I know do (ultimately) blame the American people for voting against their own interests and being too stupid to realize it.[/QUOTE]

^ this

I blame the American public for this constantly.

Of course, I give credit to the masterful work of people like Roger Ailes and Frank Luntz into setting up a system of persuasive daily propaganda, like nothing seen since the days of Hitler, that plays upon the fears, insecurities and prejudices of many Americans and takes that ignorance, and turns it into support for Republicans.
 
Yeah, I'm not sure where you get that idea.

People are definitely to blame. Many who would likely vote democratic stay home on election day (young people, urban poor etc.).

And as others note, many rural poor vote against their interests by voting for republicans who's policy protect the rich (whom they'll never be). Same with seniors who vote republican when that party is most likely to make changes to SS and Medicare that have have negative impacts for them.
 
Again the obessity topic as well as the fact that I have seen people here time and time again give a huge list of excuses for people. Hell iv even said things like this before here and had people go off on me for not understanding the plight of the poor black youth, the gay community or the jobless.

Besides that though again dmaul I would argue that even those that go out to vote(and by your standards vote Democrat)are to blame. Voting for the right candidate means nothing if you did so out of ignorance or party affiliation vs the issues. I firmly believe that the VAST majority of people that do vote are ignorant as hell even if they vote for "my guy".
 
I guess I'm still an optimist, I believe most people want to do the right thing and the heart of most Americans is in the right place.

But it's kind of like having a discussion with Knoell. Sometimes you think the guy is just on the verge of getting it, and then the Christian conservative gear kicks back in and he retreats back to his turtleshell of faith and Fox news.

Throughout history the people have been easily amused by bread and circuses. We all talk about ideologies and injustices but I think for most folks as long as they can stay healthy, earn a decent living, have a few kids, they are relatively happy. Americans aren't lean and hungry like they once were, the incentive and numbers needed to rock the boat just aren't there. That's why we'll probably keep the status quo for a while and truth be told it really isn't so bad.
 
[quote name='usickenme']Not sure what you are talking about. Most of the Dems I know do (ultimately) blame the American people for voting against their own interests and being too stupid to realize it.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. Even though Faux news and co loudly divide issues into 'us vs. liberals' I think you'll find that any Democrat, pressed for an answer, will ultimately blame America as a people.
 
[quote name='MSI Magus']
Besides that though again dmaul I would argue that even those that go out to vote(and by your standards vote Democrat)are to blame. Voting for the right candidate means nothing if you did so out of ignorance or party affiliation vs the issues. I firmly believe that the VAST majority of people that do vote are ignorant as hell even if they vote for "my guy".[/QUOTE]

I honestly don't think that's much of an issue--at least in national politics in the US.

Very few people are truly in the middle. Most people lean strongly left or strongly right. And with only having two parties in this country on the ballot for most national election positions (and any third party candidates having no chance of winning) it's very rare for a person to find a candidate from the other side that better fits their political beliefs.

Being liberal, there's almost no chance a republican candidate for state or federal office is going to better fit my beliefs than the democrat candidate. I may not like the democrat candidate much, but he/she is almost always closer to my beliefs than the republican. And any third party candidates tend to be either libertarians are people that are too far left for me (socialist party etc.).

So there really isn't much choice in state and federal elections these days for most people. Local elections are a different matter as those are less partisan and more about specific local issues. Most people just don't care about those. In rural areas they just don't matter much as their aren't many county services or property taxes etc. in most of those areas. Cities it matters more as property taxes are higher, crime is more an issue, more zoning law issues etc.
 
I think this is a solid thread. My frustration is that it seems throughout my lifetime society as a whole has shifted away from taking personal responsibility for our actions. If it's a porn star, she's doing it because she hated her dad, if it's a celeb they did it because of their addiction. I know, because I read a lot about both industries! (See what I did there? :p )

I screw up plenty of times in my life, and I can say with absolute confidence that 99% of the time it was because I could have done something different to have a more favorable outcome. I don't look to blame others for my stupidity or sincere mistakes.

The same applies to politics. If the stooges from both parties quit trying to make excuses for themselves, or for their constituents, maybe they could actually focus on more important matters. You've got some politicians, that in order to maintain their goals to be lifetime congressmen/women feel they must pander to their district, even if it's harming the people they represent.

There are people to this day that feel it's goverment's responsibility to protect us from ourselves. I couldn't disagree more, as all it really does is make us dependant on someone else to apologize for, and fix our problems.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']I honestly don't think that's much of an issue--at least in national politics in the US.

Very few people are truly in the middle. Most people lean strongly left or strongly right. And with only having two parties in this country on the ballot for most national election positions (and any third party candidates having no chance of winning) it's very rare for a person to find a candidate from the other side that better fits their political beliefs.

Being liberal, there's almost no chance a republican candidate for state or federal office is going to better fit my beliefs than the democrat candidate. I may not like the democrat candidate much, but he/she is almost always closer to my beliefs than the republican. And any third party candidates tend to be either libertarians are people that are too far left for me (socialist party etc.).

So there really isn't much choice in state and federal elections these days for most people. Local elections are a different matter as those are less partisan and more about specific local issues. Most people just don't care about those. In rural areas they just don't matter much as their aren't many county services or property taxes etc. in most of those areas. Cities it matters more as property taxes are higher, crime is more an issue, more zoning law issues etc.[/QUOTE]

I strongly disagree for a multitude of reasons. First off there are primaries even for your own party. If people were actually educated on these types of issues even if they did not want to vote against their party it would mean that we saw incumbents lose the primary. Second off there are too many important ballot issues. Third off if your educated then even if the politician you DONT want to win wins then you can contact them about a multitude of issues. Would that do anything right now? NOPE! But if everyone actually bothered to write/call/email their congressmen on important issues whenever they were failing us it would make a difference.

We can change things but only if we are educated enough to. Thus again its our fault.
 
Choice is bullshit when you have to choose between shit stew and a shit sandwich. It's a meaningless canard that the powerful use against the powerless. Until choice can be made without the influence of social structures, it's as meaningless as telling someone to just "work harder."
 
[quote name='MSI Magus']I do not see it here very often. I see how "people are too tired and depressed from working long hard days" or how "they are a poor black youth who grew up in an urban ghetto so they were not given the same education/reality as me or you". Just look at the obesity topic, its full of blaming high fructose corn syrup, chemicals and corporations for us being fat. All those things contribute, but end of the day we the American people(myself included) still decide to eat way too freaking much and not educate ourselves nearly enough on food policy in the US.

Maybe I am wrong, but it just seems that the more educated a Democrat is the more likely he is to make excuse for your average white slob or average poor black youth.[/QUOTE]

I agree that I seldom see it in the media or from elected officials (which I can't blame them)
 
[quote name='dohdough']Choice is bullshit when you have to choose between shit stew and a shit sandwich. It's a meaningless canard that the powerful use against the powerless. Until choice can be made without the influence of social structures, it's as meaningless as telling someone to just "work harder."[/QUOTE]

I have told my story here a million times before. My parents provided no parental guidance nor any real discipline. I tested extremely well and had a principle that wanted to skip me ahead a grade, I would beg my mom to draw up math problems for me when I was young and sit on our porch reading freaking encyclopedias of all things for hours on end. Learning fascinated me. I was dealt a good hand intellectually in life....but again my parents found it bothersome that I craved those things and they found discipline even more bothersome. By the time I was in 6th grade I started to just drift. I did not see the point in working hard because my parents didnt give a shit if I did well and when I failed I didnt get in trouble. By 8th grade I was faking sick more often then I was going to school. 9th grade saw the first year I was held back for missing too many days(more then half the year). By 11th I started home schooling and manipulated my way through the system graduating a year ahead of my class with honors(I manipulated my teachers and my mother was too busy dealing with my brothers court cases for selling drugs to give a shit what I was up to).

Basically as a result of this I had an 8th grade at best education till years later going back to college to try and make up for at least some of it. As a result of this combined with a list of diagnosis by a shrink it meant I was dealt a hand to fail in life. I could sit back and cry that I have aspgers, depression and that those issues combined with my parents put me on the fast track to failure. Instead though I recognize that I CHOSE to run that track. Yes I was dealt a shit hand in life and my failure is most likely due in part to that and yes if I had been given parents that gave half a shit I might have grown up to be a marine biologist as I dreamed as a kid. It still does not change though that I was born with a capable brain and despite bad guidance I still could have at any point changed courses.

This is the case with MOST people. Yes there are exceptions like the poor kid growing up in the ghetto with a substandard IQ and yes many of us are given far more hurdles to jump in life. But I honestly believe that very very few of us are set up in life with no option but failure. A black kid growing up in a ghetto is going to have to work twice as hard to succeed and yes he may never do so...but if he does not try he has no right to bitch and whine. A white middle class worker has been trained by society to eat bad and think if he cant perform the job he has for 30 years his life is over....but that does not excuse him for 30 years of eating horribly and accepting his lot in life. When he has the heart attack and loses his job its as much his fault as it is the corporation that advertised their filth to him and the senators who let those corporations buy them off.

Look I understand some of us are dealt bad hands(as I said I was dealt one)but it hardly means that we can sit and blame every bad thing in life on our socioeconomic status in life, our parents, our wife or anything else that is a convenient excuse. MOST of us have options and unless we at least try we have no right to bitch about others causing us to fail.
 
So are you saying that your parents' choices had no effect on your own choices or outcome? You're clearly not. It's obvious that their choices empowered your own to skip out. It was no more your choice to skip out than it is to have depression.

Also, an IQ is not indicative of any real intelligence, just the ability to pick up on social cues that favor the white experience.
 
[quote name='berzirk']I think this is a solid thread. My frustration is that it seems throughout my lifetime society as a whole has shifted away from taking personal responsibility for our actions. If it's a porn star, she's doing it because she hated her dad, if it's a celeb they did it because of their addiction. I know, because I read a lot about both industries! (See what I did there? :p )

I screw up plenty of times in my life, and I can say with absolute confidence that 99% of the time it was because I could have done something different to have a more favorable outcome. I don't look to blame others for my stupidity or sincere mistakes.[/QUOTE]

Do people know that America is a social democracy? As in that social?

Americans don't live on the frontier anymore. If America wants to score big in the global economy, at some level we need to work as a team.

The idea that each person can just decide to pick himself up at the bootstraps and everything will be OK is ludicrous.
 
[quote name='dohdough']Also, an IQ is not indicative of any real intelligence, just the ability to pick up on social cues that favor the white experience.[/QUOTE]

Not for nothing but you have a one-track mind.
 
Yes I do think my choices are my own. I can look back and recall deliberating many things, I can also recall making excuses for myself numerous times and then can recall the day I stopped doing that and started living life as my own.

If you want to go to such a deep philosophical place and say everything we do is not our own fault then I think you are being as ridiculous as someone like KNoell. You have just become the leftist version of him. Besides that fact though it also seems extremely biased to say that the black kid in the ghetto or the poor white middle class worker are handed these bad hands that they could never play successfully, but then not claim that the rich white guy had no choice but to play his. That same rich white guy is a product of the same society that tells him get rich or die trying or victim of his father who raised him to feel that loyalty to the company and family is the most important thing in life.

I am sorry but I just do not see life the same way as you do. I do not think we are victims of nothing more then birth and I do feel that if you take that stance you must apply it to the rich as well.

As for IQ, tell that to the guy that tests a 50 and has a hard time washing himself. Besides I never meant it just as IQ I just meant it as a general comment on a persons intelligence. I could have just as easily not said IQ and instead said intelligent or anything else.
 
[quote name='camoor']Do people know that America is a social democracy? As in that social?

Americans don't live on the frontier anymore. If America wants to score big in the global economy, at some level we need to work as a team.

The idea that each person can just decide to pick himself up at the bootstraps and everything will be OK is ludicrous.[/QUOTE]

It's not a matter of picking ones self up, it's an issue of being personally accountable. If you're constantly having someone tell you all your shortcomings and failings are due to the system, then what reasonable person would think their actions, positive or negative, mattered and needed attention?

This has nothing to do with teamwork or a global economy. You can choose to take responsibility for your mistakes, and in fact, colleagues appreciate that far more than the guy that tries to blame a different department, a different co-worker, or anything else to take the blame away. That's like writing a typo then blaming Qwerty for his placement of letters.

We have lots of politicans that are enablers of many of our ills. It's on us to be better and expect better. If enough people do that, we'll get those jokers out of office and replace them with people who do expect better for us all.
 
Is this some sort of coping mechanism for democrats to find a scapegoat for an inept and corrupt administration or are you progressives really that insane that we are to blame by paying our taxes and trusting the people we elect to make the right decisions that go beyond raising our kids to budgetary and law issues. You liberals are really earning your titles as batshit crazy blame whitey racists (funny how the supposed party of race constantly blames white people because of your anti-European sentiment) who picked a president based solely on popularity and here we are 2 and a half years later as deep or deeper in the hole than with Bush. It's the economy stupids. Try using 700+ billion to create some jobs so you can collect more taxes instead of taxing the people who do pay taxes more, and our pompous ass president makes a joke about shovel ready not being as shovel ready as he thought and everybody laughing, hohoho Obama you one term trick president.

You want to blame Americans, I blame them for picking Obama Reid and Pelosi and most of the congressional idiots who can't comprehend why they can't spend more than they take in and have pretty much bankrupted all the social programs that the people had no choice by to have the government take out of their pay all their lives. All of them and the liberal who dressed up like a fucking tiger.
 
[quote name='jputahraptor']Is this some sort of coping mechanism for democrats to find a scapegoat for an inept and corrupt administration or are you progressives really that insane that we are to blame by paying our taxes and trusting the people we elect to make the right decisions that go beyond raising our kids to budgetary and law issues. You liberals are really earning your titles as batshit crazy blame whitey racists (funny how the supposed party of race constantly blames white people because of your anti-European sentiment) who picked a president based solely on popularity and here we are 2 and a half years later as deep or deeper in the hole than with Bush. It's the economy stupids. Try using 700+ billion to create some jobs so you can collect more taxes instead of taxing the people who do pay taxes more, and our pompous ass president makes a joke about shovel ready not being as shovel ready as he thought and everybody laughing, hohoho Obama you one term trick president.

You want to blame Americans, I blame them for picking Obama Reid and Pelosi and most of the congressional idiots who can't comprehend why they can't spend more than they take in and have pretty much bankrupted all the social programs that the people had no choice by to have the government take out of their pay all their lives. All of them and the liberal who dressed up like a fucking tiger.[/QUOTE]

*points to the fact that he the topic creator is a liberal*
*then points to the fact that most democrats here are at least somewhat agreeing with him*

I think that shows that you suffer from the opposite problem that liberals do. Your so out of touch with reality and facts that you make an asshole out of yourself ranting about things you know nothing about. At least when the liberals deny facts they are trying to be kind and do the right thing...your just being a selfish dick.
 
[quote name='MSI Magus']*points to the fact that he the topic creator is a liberal*
*then points to the fact that most democrats here are at least somewhat agreeing with him*

I think that shows that you suffer from the opposite problem that liberals do. Your so out of touch with reality and facts that you make an asshole out of yourself ranting about things you know nothing about. At least when the liberals deny facts they are trying to be kind and do the right thing...your just being a selfish dick.[/QUOTE]

I think the fact that most people agree with you is a bunch of cock stroking to take your mind off your failure president. That's all this thread is after all, another excuse making thread with no point other than to blame every white Republican Christian for the failure of your politics. Please if there is an actual point to this thread other than what I think it is above, than by all means get to it.
 
[quote name='jputahraptor']I think the fact that most people agree with you is a bunch of cock stroking to take your mind off your failure president. That's all this thread is after all, another excuse making thread with no point other than to blame every white Republican Christian for the failure of your politics. Please if there is an actual point to this thread other than what I think it is above, than by all means get to it.[/QUOTE]

Yes so in other words you have come up with some silly rational with no real base in reality. Typical conservative.

This president has been a failure, I and many other liberals are happy to admit that. The reason he has been a failure though is so far beyond your ability to understand sadly. He has failed because he has governed like a Republican. He has been a Reagan for the new era. He wants so badly to come across as a compromise that he has sold out this nation time and time again trying to deal with people like yourself that cant deal with reality. Basically he has sat down at the table with people who do not know the word compromise, people that even when getting their way must pitch a fit and make the other side look bad because your born as fearful petty people. He has failed because he was not given Democratic politics a chance, I hoped he would be a new FDR and he couldnt even manage to be a new Clinton. From taxes to health care to regulation Obama has governed like a Republican would have 10-30 years ago. But again the Republican party has just become so extreame and ignorant that they cant even see it. Much like the debt ceiling your so busy frothing at the mouth with anger to the left that you cant even see you have won.

Look at the way you come in here and say we are dick stroking and then attacking conservative Christians.......then look at peoples answers. The only person who even remotely came close to that was dohdoh and the rest of us called him out for being on the extreme left to the point that his position makes no sense.

You again have proved what it means to be a modern day conservative. It does not mean low taxes, small government and personal freedom. It means attacking the left and vilifying those that do not believe what you do to the point that you will flip flop on your position in order to attack them. People in this topic did not say that Republicans(let alone Christians)were to blame...you just jumped to an ignorant position and then took a stance against us because we are perceived as being against you...even if in this case we are taking a conservative stance.

So again I know its difficult for you to do...but read. Read peoples posts and see that no one was attacking the right till kinda sorta doh doh. Read and see that you have become so unreasonable that even when someone on the left is stating something you believe in you feel the need to attack them. Read and realize you are a joke.

Good job.
 
BTW if I am wrong then it should be very simple to prove me wrong. Quote where in this topic anyone other then Dohdoh has been attacking the right. Point out where people have taken this hard line liberal stance. I know its a lot of reading for someone like you to do, but if you did the reading you claim to have done then you should be able to easily pick out parts where I or anyone else went on tirades against the Conservative Christian. I look forward to seeing your quotes.
 
[quote name='camoor']Not for nothing but you have a one-track mind.[/QUOTE]

[quote name='MSI Magus']Like I said, the Knoell of the left ;)[/QUOTE]
Look, you can all debate about who to blame as individuals, but you'd be wasting your time if you're examining the problem using neo-liberal framework. All you're doing is validating conservative methodology with a slightly more leftist twist to conservatism. Don't blame me or call me lefty knoell when I'm calling you out on not knowing how IQ was used as scientific racism.

If you want to argue for choice and personal responsibilty as a liberal, how is that any different from how a conservative does it? How is that any different than saying poor people are poor because they choose to be or that smart people are smart because they choose to be? Or people are gay because they choose to be because knowing how gays are treated, it'd be in their best interests to be straight?

You can't tear down the masters house with his own tools.
 
[quote name='lawdood']^ this

Of course, I give credit to the masterful work of people like Roger Ailes and Frank Luntz into setting up a system of persuasive daily propaganda, like nothing seen since the days of Hitler, that plays upon the fears, insecurities and prejudices of many Americans and takes that ignorance, and turns it into support for Republicans.[/QUOTE]

SO A NAZI COMPARISION TO PEOPLE WHO POLLED TO THE RIGHT, AS IF MSNBC AND THE NY TIMES NEVER HAD BIAS?

[quote name='camoor']I guess I'm still an optimist, I believe most people want to do the right thing and the heart of most Americans is in the right place.

But it's kind of like having a discussion with Knoell. Sometimes you think the guy is just on the verge of getting it, and then the Christian conservative gear kicks back in and he retreats back to his turtleshell of faith and Fox news.

DER I'M A CHRISTIAN AND MY VIEWS GET IN THE WAY OF LIBERAL LOGIC


I put my responses in caps above in case my multi quote blurred there's and my responses together.

Now this thread barely got off the first page, do you seriously want to argue all the anti-Christian sentiment threads that have appeared on these boards over the years? Do we want to ignore the Stay Classy Republican thread that gets whatever minor conservative quibble to be a sign why the party should be dismantled? Should I go into your history or am I really just limited to this thread, you took a long time for a simple minded reply that you must have gone over all 20 posts to make sure nothing was to bad, and saying besides dohdoh before issuing me this challenge, we should make all posts fair games so I can nail you to the wall. Is there a chair around that you can stand on to see over your ego? There is obvious anti-Christian and white sentiment, it's not always jumping off the page but you referenced "for your average white slob or average poor black youth" why is that even neccessary. Try as you might it seeps into your parties sub-conscious constatantly. You are the party of generalizations, just as much as with the Oslo bombing, it must be a Sarah Palin inspired crime, which I humorously read on the other thread.

I'm thrilled we argree this president failed completely, it would almost be worth it to see if so many people weren't suffering. Or if he actually even faked it to appear like he was trying to fix the problem. Any failure or compromise that Obama made were his decisions which oddly enough occured while he had majorities everywhere and as a result lead to him losing some of that ground. Now the Republicans didn't go with him on his Obamacare so that is something he and his party alone will have to defend, I think we see what happens when we let him make real decisions, that was a travesty. Great he gave the order that lead to Osama, that's not enough to run a reelection. Face it, this little experiement in Socialism has failed, there is no money and taxing the rich is not a plan, it should be illegal if it's not to tax people more money on incomes they already paid taxes.

Your great argument now boils down to he had to compromise and that is why he failed, that he didn't command that way he campaigned? And the one big thing he did isn't a giant turd? And let me guess, you want him to get reelected right?



MGI Magus You again have proved what it means to be a modern day conservative. It does not mean low taxes, small government and personal freedom. It means attacking the left and vilifying those that do not believe what you do to the point that you will flip flop on your position in order to attack them. People in this topic did not say that Republicans(let alone Christians)were to blame...you just jumped to an ignorant position and then took a stance against us because we are perceived as being against you...even if in this case we are taking a conservative stance.

Let me tell you what it means to be a modern day liberal/progessive. They will raise taxes, on everybody who pays them, tax the rich beyond their already higher tax bracket to the point where they will simply move their money and investments overseas. Tax business higher thereby destorying the hope of more jobs because they have a lot of money, but we'll give tax breaks to GE because they give Obama money. We'll also give passes to unions so they don't have to take part in the great Obamacare. We will raise the debt limit higher and higher because we have shit to pay for, the word cut never enters their head. No money the government spends is ever wasted and because we spend so much everything is going great for us. Obama is the ultimate performer, he got all the hopes up so high that he couldn't possibly deliever, he won't get reelected, people are sick and tired of the government not being held accountable, and when you start messing with peoples benefits than things will get ugly.
 
1. He didnt compare them to Nazis, he compared them twisting words, polls and results the ways Nazis did. Big difference.

2. Knoell is a Christian conservative and has shown time and time again that he can not compromise or understand anything outside his world view. Again too if you really paid attention vs just looking for buzzwords and blowing up about it he was comparing a liberal to someone being that stupid. So instead of focusing on the fact that he was calling a liberal out for his far leftist bull shit you chose to focus on the fact that he happened to say the word Christian. It would be like me going OMG you used the word Nazi and liberal in the same post! Your comparing liberals to Nazis! But again since I am a reasonable person I can recognize that the two arguments are seperate from each other and not use such childish hyperbole.

3. Using stay classy republicans as an example again shows how extreme your views must be. People have posted some amazingly crazy and fucked up stuff there, but to you its just a minor quible. Seriously? If you look too people in that topic are always happy to be reasonable like a few weeks ago when the story about a conservative pointing a gun at someone came out and LIBERALS days later pointed out that the story had been exaggerated by a liberal journalist. Again though you cant be moderate so I am sure examples like that are just liberals trying to pretend to be fair so the other crazy shit we say seems lazy crazy or some such paranoid nonsense.

4. The Sarah Palin thing was pointed out by someone we all think is crazy. Again you take the craziest among us and hold them up as examples vs seeing how the majority of us act.

5. History and facts stands behind us liberals. It has been proven time and time again in those horrible socialst countries as well as under the Clinton era that those policies work. Meanwhile we have had about 11 years of Bush policy now(since Obama has continued most of Bush and the rights crazy policy both out of idioicy and out of the right holding power)and we have failed. Claim all you want that Obama and his socialism has failed, but again your just showing that your so froth at the mouth obsessed with tearing down the left that you cant even see Obama is following your own play book. America has not had even remotly leftist politics since the Clinton years and we have not had true liberal policies since around FDR. Again an example of how your side has gotten its way on deregulation, lowered taxes and every other stupid little thin...yet your so busy swalloing the Luntz Koch propaganda that you cant even see you have gotten your own cry baby way and ruined the country as a result. You cant even think for yourself.
 
And dont bother responding. Again you have clearly shown your no differnt then Knoell, DohDoh, berzirk or anyone else to the far left or right of their party. You have no interest in facts or what peoples true intentions are, just with childish bickering which I am just not in to.
 
[quote name='jputahraptor']SO A NAZI COMPARISION TO PEOPLE WHO POLLED TO THE RIGHT, AS IF MSNBC AND THE NY TIMES NEVER HAD BIAS?

[quote name='camoor']I guess I'm still an optimist, I believe most people want to do the right thing and the heart of most Americans is in the right place.

But it's kind of like having a discussion with Knoell. Sometimes you think the guy is just on the verge of getting it, and then the Christian conservative gear kicks back in and he retreats back to his turtleshell of faith and Fox news.

DER I'M A CHRISTIAN AND MY VIEWS GET IN THE WAY OF LIBERAL LOGIC


I put my responses in caps above in case my multi quote blurred there's and my responses together.

Now this thread barely got off the first page, do you seriously want to argue all the anti-Christian sentiment threads that have appeared on these boards over the years? Do we want to ignore the Stay Classy Republican thread that gets whatever minor conservative quibble to be a sign why the party should be dismantled? Should I go into your history or am I really just limited to this thread, you took a long time for a simple minded reply that you must have gone over all 20 posts to make sure nothing was to bad, and saying besides dohdoh before issuing me this challenge, we should make all posts fair games so I can nail you to the wall. Is there a chair around that you can stand on to see over your ego? There is obvious anti-Christian and white sentiment, it's not always jumping off the page but you referenced "for your average white slob or average poor black youth" why is that even neccessary. Try as you might it seeps into your parties sub-conscious constatantly. You are the party of generalizations, just as much as with the Oslo bombing, it must be a Sarah Palin inspired crime, which I humorously read on the other thread.

I'm thrilled we argree this president failed completely, it would almost be worth it to see if so many people weren't suffering. Or if he actually even faked it to appear like he was trying to fix the problem. Any failure or compromise that Obama made were his decisions which oddly enough occured while he had majorities everywhere and as a result lead to him losing some of that ground. Now the Republicans didn't go with him on his Obamacare so that is something he and his party alone will have to defend, I think we see what happens when we let him make real decisions, that was a travesty. Great he gave the order that lead to Osama, that's not enough to run a reelection. Face it, this little experiement in Socialism has failed, there is no money and taxing the rich is not a plan, it should be illegal if it's not to tax people more money on incomes they already paid taxes.

Your great argument now boils down to he had to compromise and that is why he failed, that he didn't command that way he campaigned? And the one big thing he did isn't a giant turd? And let me guess, you want him to get reelected right?



MGI Magus You again have proved what it means to be a modern day conservative. It does not mean low taxes, small government and personal freedom. It means attacking the left and vilifying those that do not believe what you do to the point that you will flip flop on your position in order to attack them. People in this topic did not say that Republicans(let alone Christians)were to blame...you just jumped to an ignorant position and then took a stance against us because we are perceived as being against you...even if in this case we are taking a conservative stance.

Let me tell you what it means to be a modern day liberal/progessive. They will raise taxes, on everybody who pays them, tax the rich beyond their already higher tax bracket to the point where they will simply move their money and investments overseas. Tax business higher thereby destorying the hope of more jobs because they have a lot of money, but we'll give tax breaks to GE because they give Obama money. We'll also give passes to unions so they don't have to take part in the great Obamacare. We will raise the debt limit higher and higher because we have shit to pay for, the word cut never enters their head. No money the government spends is ever wasted and because we spend so much everything is going great for us. Obama is the ultimate performer, he got all the hopes up so high that he couldn't possibly deliever, he won't get reelected, people are sick and tired of the government not being held accountable, and when you start messing with peoples benefits than things will get ugly.[/QUOTE]

You have been so brainwashed by the manipulators of right wing media, all critical thinking and rationality has left your mind. You just regurgitate things that you have been read or told, talking points you have been handed, and had your emotions and anger incited by those that have played you like a fiddle to gain your support for political positions that do not benefit you, your family or your friends in the least.

On top of all that you enjoy playing a victimized Christian, wearing non existent attacks on your sleeve as if you were Christ himself. Your faith should be stronger than that, if it's not, look to yourself, not your "perceived" attackers.

If I were a Christian, I would pray for the seriously deluded like yourself, people who, no matter how much truth, how many facts, are ever presented to them, they simply climb deeper into the abyss of rigid ideology, lies and ignorance.
 
[quote name='MSI Magus']And dont bother responding. Again you have clearly shown your no differnt then Knoell, DohDoh, berzirk or anyone else to the far left or right of their party. You have no interest in facts or what peoples true intentions are, just with childish bickering which I am just not in to.[/QUOTE]

Wait, how in the ballsack did I get thrown in with Doh and Knoell? What am I an extremist about? That's baffling to me. I disagree with you in one thread, and now I'm some sort of fringe whacko. Bleh, whatever. Hurray for Internet duels.
 
[quote name='MSI Magus']And dont bother responding. Again you have clearly shown your no differnt then Knoell, DohDoh, berzirk or anyone else to the far left or right of their party. You have no interest in facts or what peoples true intentions are, just with childish bickering which I am just not in to.[/QUOTE]
LOLZ...can you make a diatribe about me too? TIA!

Also, berzirk is a fucking centrist like you, but a little more to the right. I don't know how the hell you can group him with me and knoell. That's just plain insulting.:lol:
 
[quote name='dohdough']LOLZ...can you make a diatribe about me too? TIA!

Also, berzirk is a fucking centrist like you, but a little more to the right. I don't know how the hell you can group him with me and knoell. That's just plain insulting.:lol:[/QUOTE]

Thanks man! That's the point I was trying to make! Haa haa. Although I've gotta say, you think through your positions, even if I may disagree with many of them, but at least there is thought and effort behind them. I get the feeling from Knoell that he's not even trying...or at least I hope that's what's going on with him!
 
[quote name='berzirk']It's not a matter of picking ones self up, it's an issue of being personally accountable. If you're constantly having someone tell you all your shortcomings and failings are due to the system, then what reasonable person would think their actions, positive or negative, mattered and needed attention?

This has nothing to do with teamwork or a global economy. You can choose to take responsibility for your mistakes, and in fact, colleagues appreciate that far more than the guy that tries to blame a different department, a different co-worker, or anything else to take the blame away. That's like writing a typo then blaming Qwerty for his placement of letters.

We have lots of politicans that are enablers of many of our ills. It's on us to be better and expect better. If enough people do that, we'll get those jokers out of office and replace them with people who do expect better for us all.[/QUOTE]

How are you going to get Wall Street to act accountable? I ask because that would actually solve many many problems.

Politicians, eh. Not so sure what even the best politicians could do without some cooperation from big biz.
 
[quote name='camoor']How are you going to get Wall Street to act accountable? I ask because that would actually solve many many problems.

Politicians, eh. Not so sure what even the best politicians could do without some cooperation from big biz.[/QUOTE]

I guess it depends on what you want them to be accountable for. Not intended as a cop out answer, it's just that what one person wants to see them apologize for and improve on, another might praise.

The second half of your comment is the one I really agree with though. It's disgusting that you need to have lobbyist/corporate support if you have any shot at national politics. My fix for that would be more regulation. Only individuals can donate to campaigns. Let's face it, right now it's bribery. Such and such lobbyist holds a fundraiser, you in turn are expected to be sympathetic to their cause. Another thing you could do is cap what can be spent by a candidate while campaigning. Only the candidate can advertise, so you don't have these "Concerned citizens for randomized bullshit" pumping out ads for their horse in the race.

I expect corporate executives to do all they can to make more money for themselves and their companies/shareholders. I expect politicians, public servants, to at least have the public in mind for most of their actions. I fully admit, that's an unrealistic expectation.
 
[quote name='Clak']And the qwerty keyboard wasn't named after anyone named qwerty. :p[/QUOTE]

Haa haa. Goddammit...really? fucking HS "keyboarding" teacher!
 
[quote name='MSI Magus']And dont bother responding. Again you have clearly shown your no differnt then Knoell, DohDoh, berzirk or anyone else to the far left or right of their party. You have no interest in facts or what peoples true intentions are, just with childish bickering which I am just not in to.[/QUOTE]

Just because DohDough understands that poverty is a tool of racial oppression in the modern age does not mean he is a fringe looney. Also brother, childish bickering is the crux of the forum in which you currently reside!

P.S. I'm not a democrat but I came in anyway.
 
[quote name='willardhaven']Just because DohDough understands that poverty is a tool of racial oppression in the modern age does not mean he is a fringe looney. Also brother, childish bickering is the crux of the forum in which you currently reside!

P.S. I'm not a democrat but I came in anyway.[/QUOTE]

I understand that poverty is a tool of racial oppression. I understand that old rich white men have worked to keep young blacks ignorant and impoverished through policy, music, education and every other means they possible could. I however also understand that we as humans have will power and while it can be hard to go against our friends, culture etc etc its not impossible.

I am sorry but life putting hurdles in your way may justify if you ultimately fail, but it does not justify you not even trying. If you go to that crap school and apply yourself, if you attempt to find a way to go to college, if you attempt to find a job etc etc and society says no young black man you fail...then yes you have an excuse. But if you just sit around trying to act like a fucking thug to keep up with your idiot friends then you have no more excuse then the young white kid trying to be Marilyn Manson(or more accurate to kids today I guess Black Veil Brides)when you fail at life.

Basically try and fail and yes you may have excuses based on socioeconomics but if you dont even try(which most people dont)you have no right to bitch.

P.S - I love how the far left always fucking turns every argument in to a race debate somehow. This did not have to be about poor black youths, if anything this topic is about White since we make up the majority of the population(especially of voting age).
 
I think he's just really passionate about racial inequality, wouldn't fault him for that. I think your "personal responsibility" high horse is played out. People stay home and give up due to a lack of leadership (Democrats are just left-leaning Republicans). Our government is not interested in funding education which would increase the probability of real social change.

You brought up race first. Also it's pretty ignorant of you to criticize people who grew up in a poor urban environment. It's easy for you to write-off racial hurdles as a white man.

Once again, we're bickering. I think this is the third time you and I have done so. ;)
 
First off I grew up in a school district with as many AA as white kids. Second I support increasing education funding and doing so double in black school districts. Your preaching to the choir on what policy we need to put in place. The difference is that unlike most Liberals who completely excuse AA for any bad behavior because of their crap hand I recognize that your environment plays a role in making you, but its ignorant and insulting to blacks to say that its the only factor. People like you and dohdoh are doing the poor black kid a disservice by telling him he can blame every last thing in life on society and take no responsibility for his own actions.
 
It's just typical to say "suck it up"... it's not very forward thinking or fair. You think you're doing them more of a service than we are?
 
By fighting to create social policy that changes their lives but in the mean time not allowing them to blame every last bad thing in their life on the world. You are teaching them to be a victim which is a trait that will be hard to break even if the world does ever give them a fair shot. My message to them is we will work to make your world better, but in the mean time you need to put work in too. Yours is hey fuck it, life sucks and will suck so why try. I know thats not exactly what you are saying, but come on its hard not to take it that way when at the end of the day they are told no matter what you do its not your fault.
 
Uggghhh...do I really need to disseminate this for you?

[quote name='MSI Magus']I understand that poverty is a tool of racial oppression. I understand that old rich white men have worked to keep young blacks ignorant and impoverished through policy, music, education and every other means they possible could. I however also understand that we as humans have will power and while it can be hard to go against our friends, culture etc etc its not impossible.[/quote]
So it's a case of cognitave dissonance then? If policy is used to enforce white supremacy by systematically denying black people access to education, capital, housing, and employment, how is it that a poor black kid that's punished more severly, disproportionately targeted for punishment, disenfranchised, not allowed to even get a decent paying job, can somehow choose to not be affected by those thing purely by will alone? If this person a part of the system, then that individual is restrained by what it allows that person to do. Simply saying that it's a matter of choice is such a mind-boggling leap of logic that I can't even begin to fathom it considering the mountains of knowledge we have on sociology.

I am sorry but life putting hurdles in your way may justify if you ultimately fail, but it does not justify you not even trying. If you go to that crap school and apply yourself, if you attempt to find a way to go to college, if you attempt to find a job etc etc and society says no young black man you fail...then yes you have an excuse. But if you just sit around trying to act like a fucking thug to keep up with your idiot friends then you have no more excuse then the young white kid trying to be Marilyn Manson(or more accurate to kids today I guess Black Veil Brides)when you fail at life.
Click to expand...
Do you really want to use stereotypes to defend your arguments? No matter how you cut it, entertainment is one of the very few avenues a young black person can attain economic success because of systemic racism. In case you haven't noticed, we tend to only value black people as entertainment and not so much as intellectuals. A white kid isn't bombarded with the same type of messages.

Basically try and fail and yes you may have excuses based on socioeconomics but if you dont even try(which most people dont)you have no right to bitch.
Click to expand...
Kids are a lot keener and more receptive to social cues than you may think and all of it is accumulative. Just because they can't articulate it doesn't mean that its effects aren't strongly felt. The same can be said for sexism as well.

P.S - I love how the far left always fucking turns every argument in to a race debate somehow. This did not have to be about poor black youths, if anything this topic is about White since we make up the majority of the population(especially of voting age).
Click to expand...
Black people don't count now, so let's not talk about it? Before you decide to write me off as a race-baiting loonie, think about the way you're approaching this argument with stereotypes and how you just said that race doesn't even need to be discussed since white folk are the only ones that matter since they have a majority. Do you not see how your framing is very problematic? I could even go as far to say that it has a racist slant and I would be absolutely correct.

If policies effect people of color differently than whites, there is absolutely no reason at all that we can't discuss it. In matter of fact, we are obligated to talk about it based on that reason alone. Handwaving the effects of racism because it makes you feel uncomfortable says more about your lack of progressivism than my alleged excess of it.

This is my only race-centric post in this thread and I don't have any idea why you think dealing with racism is a "far-left" talking point. Maybe you're not as liberal as you think you are. Although, I already addressed that when I was talking about neo-liberalism.

Btw, I'm still waiting for my evisceration like the one you gave jraptorsomething.
 
[quote name='MSI Magus']By fighting to create social policy that changes their lives but in the mean time not allowing them to blame every last bad thing in their life on the world. You are teaching them to be a victim which is a trait that will be hard to break even if the world does ever give them a fair shot. My message to them is we will work to make your world better, but in the mean time you need to put work in too. Yours is hey fuck it, life sucks and will suck so why try. I know thats not exactly what you are saying, but come on its hard not to take it that way when at the end of the day they are told no matter what you do its not your fault.[/QUOTE]
So tell me, what do you think about this then:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgvOdD5bVsg&feature=related
 
[quote name='berzirk']I guess it depends on what you want them to be accountable for. Not intended as a cop out answer, it's just that what one person wants to see them apologize for and improve on, another might praise.[/QUOTE]

Apologize and improve on? This isn't romper room. They've bankrupted the country. I want corrupt wall streeters to go to prison. Pound-them-in-the-ass prison. Skillling, Madoff, Raj, it's a good start but nowhere near enough. Juice the SEC, put some ringers in key regulation positions, and let's get some heads rolling.
 
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