Agent Orange lawsuit dismissed

[alonzomourning23]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4336941.stm

A US federal court in New York has dismissed a legal action brought by Vietnamese plaintiffs over the use of Agent Orange during the Vietnam War.

The plaintiffs had sought compensation from the firms that manufactured the chemical, which allegedly caused birth defects, miscarriages and cancer.

They said use of the defoliant - to strip away forest cover during the war - was a war crime against millions.

But Judge Jack Weinstein ruled there was no legal basis for their claims.

The civil action was the first attempt by Vietnamese plaintiffs to claim compensation for the effects of Agent Orange, which has been linked to a multitude of heath problems, including diabetes.

However, the chemical companies said no such link had been proved.

The defendants - including Dow Chemical and the Monsanto Corporation - also argued that the US government was responsible for how the chemical was used, not the manufacturers.

They maintained that US courts could not punish corporations for carrying out the orders of a president exercising his powers as commander-in-chief.

Birth defects

In a 233-page ruling, Judge Weinstein threw out the case, saying: "There is no basis for any of the claims of plaintiffs under the domestic law of any nation or state or under any form of international law."

The US justice department had urged the federal judge to dismiss the lawsuit.

In a brief filed in January, it said opening the courts to cases brought by former enemies would be a dangerous threat to presidential powers to wage war.

Between 1962 and 1971, large quantities of Agent Orange were sprayed across parts of Vietnam to deprive communist North Vietnamese forces of forest cover.

In 1984, several chemical companies paid $180m (£93m) to settle a lawsuit with US war veterans, who said that their health had been affected by exposure to the substance.

Agent Orange was named after the colour of its container. The active ingredient was a strain of dioxin that stripped the jungle bare.

In time, some contend, the dioxin spread to the food chain causing a proliferation of birth defects.

Some babies were born without eyes or arms, or were missing internal organs.

A group representing alleged Vietnamese victims says three million people were exposed to the chemical during the war, and at least one million suffer serious health problems today.

I find it hard to believe that chemical companies didn't know what the chemicals would be used for, so I would think they would be liable (especially since following orders is not supposed to be a defense against war crimes). Also it mentions that the chemical companies had reached a settlement in 84 with u.s. soldiers, even when, in comparison, their suffering was negligable. They should have sued the government instead for using them though.

 

[PittsburghAfterDark]

The whole war crimes argument really doesn't hold water on Agent Orange being used as a defoiliant. I also see no mention of chemical companies not knowing what these chemicals would be used for.

Vietnam was more or less a civil war and the south was the side with UN representation. If the government of South Vietnam condoned or asked for the stuff to be used that's the right of a soverign nation. They have the right to denude their trees and plant life, just like clearcutting here.

However since the communists won in 1975, after the American pullout of 1972, their government is going to claim we acted as war criminals when we had the full support of the recognized government of the era. This is like holocaust survivors suing the FRG for crimes during the Nazi era. The government they seek to sue is out of power, the leaders are dead, in jail or in exile. So even if they win, they'll never collect.

The judge acted properly.

 

[alonzomourning23]

[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']The whole war crimes argument really doesn't hold water on Agent Orange being used as a defoiliant. I also see no mention of chemical companies not knowing what these chemicals would be used for.

Vietnam was more or less a civil war and the south was the side with UN representation.[/quote]

The problem isn't so much that it was a defolient, it's that it produced major health problems and birth defects.

Vietnam was a civil war, that's why we shouldn't have been in it. We made it worse, and we supported a puppet government that the people did not. The people would have voted for ho chi minh if given the chance, and that's why no election was ever held. If anything we helped break the geneva accords that the north and south signed, since we supported the souths initial violation of them (not holding elections to reunify the country).

government of South Vietnam condoned or asked for the stuff to be used that's the right of a soverign nation. They have the right to denude their trees and plant life, just like clearcutting here.

However since the communists won in 1975, after the American pullout of 1972, their government is going to claim we acted as war criminals when we had the full support of the recognized government of the era. This is like holocaust survivors suing the FRG for crimes during the Nazi era. The government they seek to sue is out of power, the leaders are dead, in jail or in exile. So even if they win, they'll never collect.

You do understand that the lawsuit was about the deaths and health problems caused, not about the loss of trees, right? Do you think clearcutting in the u.s. caused hundreds of thousands of defects and health problems?

And, even if the government authorized it (I have no idea if it did), what does that have to do about it being a war crime? So now since a government authorizes something that kills and harms people it cannot be a war crime? What about argentinas dirty war? Was that legal because the government was just excersising their rights as a sovereign nation?

Regardless of whether they supported it (I have no idea if they did, though I assume they didn't really care), we where the real power, we were in control, and we carried out the act. We are responsible for what we did, don't try to act like we were just the humble servant of south vietnam.

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9604/13/agent_orange/

HANOI, Vietnam (CNN) -- Thoa, 13, never experienced the horrors of the Vietnam War, but like thousands of other children, she lives with its effects every day.

Since the country was unified in 1975, veterans have complained of various illnesses linked to defoliants like Agent Orange used during the war. But now, in ever growing numbers, it is the children of these veterans who are suffering, according to a new U.S. report linking Agent Orange to birth defects.

"My hands hurt. The skin falls off when it's touched," says Thoa, whose face is marked with dark brown spots.

Thoa recently attended the opening of a computer school at Hanoi's Peace Village, a center near Hanoi for children Vietnam has identified as Agent Orange victims.

During the war, the United States is believed to have dumped more than 19 million tons of defoliants over vast areas of south Vietnam. The plan was to deny jungle cover to guerrillas and infiltrators. But, many observers agree that the defoliants never really helped the war effort.

While Thoa's scars are visible, many children are suffering from mental retardation. The doctors who run the center say the evidence speaks for itself.

"It's a humanitarian matter. We are trying to help more than 200,000 to 300,000 children who are chemical war victims," says scientist Hoang Dinh Cau.

But these children may have to wait for help. The Vietnamese government says it has neither the money nor the technology to pay for the medical research needed.

So now, more than two decades after the end of the war, another battle is being fought -- by the children of war.

http://www.ifrc.org/docs/news/02/031401/

Millions of Vietnamese people were exposed to Agent Orange during the war. The Vietnamese Red Cross says local studies have shown that as many as a million people now have disabilities or other health problems associated with Agent Orange - approximately 100,000 of them being disabled children.

Ya, all we did was clear a few trees.

 

[PittsburghAfterDark]

You know, you like arguing for the sake of arguing.

Do you honestly think me or anyone arguing for the dismissal of this case would say there is no more or less risk from using a chemical defoiliant than clearcutting? Get real, try, for once, to picutre someone other than yourself with a brain and just because they don't state what is painfully obvious they're not ing idiots because they didn't put it in writing.

We shouldn't have been in Vietnam? Why, we were invited by the nation with UN representation to help. Just like we were in Korea in the 50's. Despite what you say South Vietnam was not a puppet state with us in real control running roughshod over the people and government. There were elections, assinations, rising to power etc. throughout the conflict but more or less the government was legit.

We also acted in concert with the AVRN forces using this stuff. It's not popular to say but the US Army and Air Force were not the only entities using Agent Orage.

Learn a little about the Vietnam era and how the status of U.S. forces agreement worked in practicality and rality before you make idiotic statements like "Ya, all we did was clear a few trees.". Because you, like many others who like to write revisionist and anti-U.S. and anti-corporate arguments have no idea what really happened.

So, tell me, since you know so much about the era and what really happened, as opposed to what the communist government of Vietnam wants you to believe, tell us how we acted as criminals with the wholesale support of a popularly elected government trying to defend their country from communist infiltration?

You have no idea what that war was like. None. Your understanding is Apocalypse Now and Platoon. Not the politcal reality of it. Let's say West Virginia wants Virginia back. However Virginia wants to remain independent. If West Virginia was running armed raids into border towns, sending rebels into Richmond, Norfolk and Charlottesville to bomb, kill, maim and disrupt commerce do you not think Virginia would ask for outside help? Would it or would it not be the role of the federal government to step in and resolve the matter between the states?

I mean, after all, it's just a civil war between two Virginias. What right does an outside party have to get involved?

That CNN article is so skewed it's ridiculous. Without any proof, without any studies, no scientific backing 13 year olds with these conditions are thought to be AO victims? That puts this kids birth in 1992, more than 20 years after U.S. forces were pulled from ground combat roles. Do you think that, maybe, just maybe, the Communist (Let me reinterate that COMMUNIST and TOTALITARIAN.) government that has slipping support and control over its nation, has no money, no international allies and no accomplishments of achievement to stand on may put any person, regardless of age, with any kind of illness in a "hospital" or "sanitorium" and declare.... AGENT ORANGE!?!?!?!

Did that thought even cross your mind? You mean, it never occured to you that a totalitarian government might lie about the United Sates? Who would have thunk it.

 

[alonzomourning23]

Any foreign presence in vietnam was going to be seen as an occupier, they were not going to end the war until the nation was united and independent, and few saw the south as truly independent, either then or today, vietnam or america.

You also kept comparing it to clearcutting trees, why aren't I going to argue against that? Those arguments weren't even relevant since they didn't deal with what the lawsuit was about.

Vietnam did have elections, in 1967 (the winner only got in the mid 30's), and 55. They were supposed to hold national elections in 56, diem (the man we pressured the emperor to appoint) cancelled elections since it was evident that ho chi minh would win and vietnam would be united under north rule, since the democratic elections were supposed to result in the unification of vietnam under the winner. The elections were the only reason ho chi minh (against the wishes of those around him) agreed to the geneva accords. There was an election of sorts in 55, but diem won with a saddam like percent (98 or 99% I believe).

It wasn't until after the cancelled 56 elections, with u.s. support, that the the north begin attacking the south.

You have no idea what that war was like. None. Your understanding is Apocalypse Now and Platoon. Not the politcal reality of it. Let's say West Virginia wants Virginia back. However Virginia wants to remain independent. If West Virginia was running armed raids into border towns, sending rebels into Richmond, Norfolk and Charlottesville to bomb, kill, maim and disrupt commerce do you not think Virginia would ask for outside help? Would it or would it not be the role of the federal government to step in and resolve the matter between the states?

I really should watch those movies, everyone keeps talking about them. The federal government is superior to states. A civil war would be one half of the nation fighting the other. And considering the north enjoyed plenty of support in rural south vietnam, it isn't as clear cut. Considering the south refused to hold the elections that would have unified the country, the reason the fighting stopped in the first place, it's not that clear cut. In a civil war the only job an outside nation should have is to protect civilians if war crimes are occuring, that was not what we were doing. Vietnam isn't the same as germany invading poland, which is how you seem to see it.

 

[alonzomourning23]

That CNN article is so skewed it's ridiculous. Without any proof, without any studies, no scientific backing 13 year olds with these conditions are thought to be AO victims? That puts this kids birth in 1992, more than 20 years after U.S. forces were pulled from ground combat roles. Do you think that, maybe, just maybe, the Communist (Let me reinterate that COMMUNIST and TOTALITARIAN.) government that has slipping support and control over its nation, has no money, no international allies and no accomplishments of achievement to stand on may put any person, regardless of age, with any kind of illness in a "hospital" or "sanitorium" and declare.... AGENT ORANGE!?!?!?!

Did that thought even cross your mind? You mean, it never occured to you that a totalitarian government might lie about the United Sates? Who would have thunk it.

You don't understand. Many areas still have high levels of chemical remains, and many birth defects are due to people it passing through the parent to the child, often many years aterward. The fact that this is leading to birth defects now doesn't even seem to be debated anymore, I haven't seen any reputable source dispute this.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/08/11/health/main567652.shtml

(AP) Decades after the wartime defoliant Agent Orange was sprayed over Vietnam, toxic chemicals continue to contaminate Vietnamese people and the food they eat, according to a new study released Monday.

The finding, published in the August issue of the Journal of Occupation and Environmental Medicine, found that six out of 16 food samples taken last year from around the southern city of Bien Hoa, a former U.S. air base, had levels of dioxin approaching those found during the Vietnam War.

Dioxin was found in ducks, chickens, a bottom-dwelling fish and a toad. Samples of pork and beef showed negligible levels.

“This study is one of many that shows Agent Orange is not history. Dioxin contamination is still found in high levels in some Vietnamese, as high as when spraying was going on,” said lead researcher Dr. Arnold Schecter, of the University of Texas School of Public Health in Dallas.

During the Vietnam War, the U.S. military sprayed an estimated 21 million gallons of herbicides over central and southern Vietnam to destroy jungles communist forces used as cover. About 55 percent of that was Agent Orange, which contains the highly toxic dioxin.

Bien Hoa was the site of a 5,000-gallon underground spill of Agent Orange about three decades ago.

Earlier studies have shown high dioxin levels in the bloodstream of residents of Bien Hoa, located 20 miles northeast of Ho Chi Minh City, including children born decades after the spraying and people who recently moved there.

Though there has never been a direct scientific connection established between the herbicide and birth defects, exposure to Agent Orange has been linked to a variety of illnesses, including cancer, diabetes and spina bifida.

Schecter, who worked with a team of Vietnamese, German and American scientists, said the study also showed the presence of other dangerous chemicals, including PCBs, a dioxin-like substance.

“When we worry about the health effects in people, we shouldn't ignore the presence of these other chemicals,” he said.

Schecter said he believes measures can be taken to avoid future contamination, including urging people to substitute contaminated foods with other food sources.

“There are things that can be done here. The good news is that even in Bien Hoa city, most of the food is safe,” he said.

Although Vietnam has never directly demanded compensation from the United States, it has said Washington has a moral responsibility to help heal the consequences of the war. Last year, the two countries held their first joint scientific conference on Agent Orange and its effects.

Vietnam says there are more than 620,000 victims affected by Agent Orange, including veterans and their children.

Little trace of dioxin remains in the soil. However, dioxin can be found in sediment, which may be one reason fish and ducks are more likely to be contaminated.

Your argument that I don't know anything may be true relative to some people, but you seem to know even less.

Also, check the news lately, vietnams economy is booming, and international relations are improving (including flights between vietnam and the u.s.). After war with france, the u.s., and finally a devastating one with china, vietnam is improving in many aspects. Here's an article you should read http://www.economist.com/world/asia/displaystory.cfm?story_id=2653647, showing improvements as well as the resulting problems.