Are Asians really the "model minority"?

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Sorry to bring this up but I just had an argument with a friend about this a few minutes ago.

Asian Americans commit half of suicides at Cornell
By Laura Harder
©2005 The Cornell Daily Sun
March 29, 2005

Cornell Minds Matter, a new student group focusing on mental health issues on campus, organized a lecture by Wai Kwong Wong, Ph.D. of Counseling and Psychological Services (CAPS), to address mental health concerns in the Cornell Asian community yesterday. The lecture, entitled "Breaking the Silence," focused on encouraging members of the Asian community to seek help and talk about mental health concerns.

Laura Alves '07, a member of the Cornell Minds Matter executive board, decided to organize the event, because "the stats [on Asian American mental health issues] we got were daunting, and I thought, we should have a forum to make Asian students aware that these problems exist."

According to Wong, Asian students at Cornell commit 50 percent of completed student suicides, even though they make up only 17 percent of the entire Cornell population. Asian students are also most likely to report problems with stress, sleep, sexually or physically abusive relationships and hopelessness. Asian students are least likely to utilize CAPS, and when they do, they are often very reluctant, referred by a faculty member and visit only a few times.

Wong said, "So what's wrong with these guys? Isn't everyone at Cornell stressed?" He discussed stereotypes, such as: Asians are all good at math and science, they can fix your computer, and they're very self-reliant.

He even offered up an anecdote: he walked into his high school English class one day, looking glum, and his English teacher, the now-famous Frank McCourt -- author of Angela's Ashes -- asked, "What's wrong?" Wong replied, "I think I just failed my math test," and McCourt responded, "You can't fail math, you're Chinese!"

While he had the audience chuckling, Wong reminded listeners that these stereotypes comprise a part of the stigma that discourages Asian students from seeking help. There have been cases in which Asians have received differential treatment, for example, a T.A. grading an Asian's problem set harsher than a non-Asian peer's.

He said that they also often experience resentment. For example, a non-Asian might walk into a class full of 30 Asian students on the first day and think, "there goes the curve." The stigma that Asians are self-reliant, "problem-free" geniuses creates a huge barrier. Not only do they feel the need to identify and live up to the stereotypes, but others expect them to as well.

Wong outlined two major developmental concerns that often contribute to Asian mental health issues. The first is identity; how you see yourself versus what other people -- family, friends, professors -- expect you to be.

The second concern, he said, is purpose. Many Asians associate success with academic and economic achievement, which is fueled by family expectations.

"Definitely we have a lot of family issues, me being Chinese American," Darleen Chien '05 said. These family pressures can be generational and cultural conflicts, which cause stress because individual wishes are subordinate to family wishes.

Alves said that, "Everyone knows [the family issue] exists, but we don't talk about it. It's so common in the Asian community; everyone experiences it."

There is an emphasis in Asian culture to avoid problems, the "don't think about it" approach. Wong highlighted an example from his own life about a lack of communication in his family. While composing a family history in graduate school, Wong discovered that he had a brother who committed suicide. He never knew about it because he was very young at the time and neither his parents nor his older sister ever talked about it. All the pictures of his brother were removed from the family photo albums.

Wong refers to the stigma of shame as a "corrosive emotion, you feel bad for feeling bad ... it's a vicious cycle."

Rahul Banerji '07, president of Cornell Minds Matter, delved further into the idea of shame, admitting that he took a leave of absence for bipolar disorder and said, "I was so ashamed and couldn't even face my family. I didn't come back for three years. These are issues we should be talking about, breaking the silence."

Wong concluded that people need to recognize this "conceptual invisibility," meaning that, even though Asians are highly visible on campus, they're also ignored.

Banerji was "glad [Wong] spoke about what changes we can implement to foster discussion about this, revealing effective ways that will change the situation."

According to Wong, it's all about overcoming the "conspiracy of silence," and remembering that seeking help is a sign of strength.
Click to expand...

So I just had an argument with my friend who thinks that the reason why I got into this university is because of my genes, not because I worked my ass off to get accepted here (as well as all the other schools I applied to). She thinks that people of other races who get accepted into good schools deserve more credit because they aren't blessed with the genes that make Asians "good at math/science" and "work hard". I guess this means that it takes less willpower for me to study? In the past, I've also had teachers grade me on a tougher scale than other students because I'm Asian. I would make a mistake on a math problem and get all the points for that question off while another person would make the same mistake but only get 1/3 of the points off. One time, when I complained to my teacher, he laughed and said "Oh come on, you should know that! It's in your genes!"

It's funny how many points in that article are true. I know that if I walk into a class full of Asians here (happens often since half of the student body is comprised of Asians), I freak, lol. People also have a tendency to think that my life is easier, that I have less problems to worry about, and that all I ever freak over is getting an A- on a test. One of my Asian friends suffers from bi-polar disorder and his family thinks that he's merely just faking it for attention.

Yeah, I'm just making this thread cuz I'm pissed, lol.
 
As a non-asian I don't look at the stereotyping as a racial one it's more a product of the culture IMO. I personally have a very poor relationship with my family and feel over the years that has done alot to hurt my disipline and ability to study. In most asian familys I have encountered there has been a strong intrest in their childrens success and life descisions and while this may cause extra stress and expectations for the child to live up to it is much better then my experiance. While I was in school I would only get any parental reaction from poor scores/grades/comments never would the high test scores comment counter the fails to do assignments that they often came with. Anyways before I go on too much of a rant here I'll make my point. Asians might tend to be better students but they also tend to be more together and there culture is much more disiplined and strict. Children raised in such away become products of that environment and are more willing to work hard and achieve for themselves IMO.
 
Wait, so the article says because of stereotypes, Asians are more stressed to not get help and stuff and this had led to many suicides?
 
[quote name='The VGM']Wait, so the article says because of stereotypes, Asians are more stressed to not get help and stuff and this had led to many suicides?[/QUOTE]

Take out the race issue, and focus on just this part, not getting help, not performing to expectations, and being more stressed. Those are all things that are often found in youth suicides and attempted suicides.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']Take out the race issue, and focus on just this part, not getting help, not performing to expectations, and being more stressed. Those are all things that are often found in youth suicides and attempted suicides.[/QUOTE]

Race does make a difference but it does not affect how you perform in school. However, race does affect your health problems. For example, African Americans are more likely to have sickle cell within their genes compared to Caucasians. Asian immigrants that came here after the Vietnam War suffer from wide range of mental problems. Read up the studies by Stanley Sue, he's the most recognized and famous in the United States for his studies on Asian Americans.
 
Asian is such a board group that it is not fair to label everyone a certain way. For example, many Cambodian are recent refugees, and many of them are not doing that well.
 
[quote name='beguile']Race does make a difference but it does not affect how you perform in school. However, race does affect your health problems. For example, African Americans are more likely to have sickle cell within their genes compared to Caucasians. Asian immigrants that came here after the Vietnam War suffer from wide range of mental problems. Read up the studies by Stanley Sue, he's the most recognized and famous in the United States for his studies on Asian Americans.[/QUOTE]

It does and it doesn't. It doesn't effect how you perform, but if by being of a certain race you are treated in particular way, that can, and often does, alter your behavior. The same can happen to any race or ethnicity, whatever brings about these situations can lead to this behavior. I remember reading about studies done in classrooms, by treating particular groups as "good" and "bad" you could alter the overall performance of the group.

Sickle cell anemia isn't due to race but region, in areas with heavy malaria (particularly sub saharan africa), high rates of sickle cell anemia are a side effect to a defence mechanism against malaria. If you live in an area with malaria, it is adventageous to have partial sickle cell anemia. The rates of sickle cell anemia in african americans have been dropping, and will continue to drop, due to it no longer being advantageous.
 
Do people think less of black atheletes, on the assumption that they are naturally gifted in physical fitness? Do some of them resent being stereotyped, even in an ostensibly positive way? Probably.

Personally, I don't give a darn what people expect of me, positively or negatively. If someone dismisses my career choice as an easy one because of my background, that's certainly not something to get my dander up about. They can speculare to their heart's content. :)

[edit: music? Of course they encourage musical talent. They sign you up for lessons from your sixth birthday until you find yourself sitting in front of a conductor in a snobby music hall. yeeha!]
 
My thoughts here. I blame Asian parents for this mostly. Don't get me wrong, I don't like the stereotype either but I know that Asian parents put TREMENDOUS pressure on their kids, see "too much" and I also disapprove of them focusing their kids on music as much. MORE Asian parents should encourage their children to get into acting, music, etc. if they see a talent there. Overall those parents instead try to push their children to Academic pursuits and do a DISSERVICE to the Asian American community in general. Don't get me wrong, society has their part in me not seeing Asians on TV as well but if the parents don't encourage their kids to do it we will still see it at the level it is today.
If more Asian Americans kept rallying and rallying, doing their own thing here and doing it well in music we'd see a breakthrough here. I find it sad Jocelyn Enriquez is the ONLY #1 Asian American artist here in America. Coco Lee is HUGE in Taiwan and is an Asian American and her American album sold shit unfortunately. Btw it was quite good as well. More of these artists need to keep pushing and pushing and maybe they'll tip the swill from the trough of American music most Americans are listening to and call Pop music here.
 
Well, at least most asian kids are a healthy weight.

White and black Americans are the most disturbingly overweight people in the world. It is a huge embarrassment and a national disgrace. The fact that it is simply accepted (or at best weakly combatted) in America is intolerable.

White and black Americans could learn something from the admirable discipline shown by Asian people in every facet of their lives.

All things equal, the problems that come with being good a math don't hold a candle to the diabetes that comes from being a fatty, heart attacks, strokes, and not being able to haul your fat ass around town without the help of a motorized scooter.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']It does and it doesn't. It doesn't effect how you perform, but if by being of a certain race you are treated in particular way, that can, and often does, alter your behavior. The same can happen to any race or ethnicity, whatever brings about these situations can lead to this behavior. I remember reading about studies done in classrooms, by treating particular groups as "good" and "bad" you could alter the overall performance of the group.

Sickle cell anemia isn't due to race but region, in areas with heavy malaria (particularly sub saharan africa), high rates of sickle cell anemia are a side effect to a defence mechanism against malaria. If you live in an area with malaria, it is adventageous to have partial sickle cell anemia. The rates of sickle cell anemia in african americans have been dropping, and will continue to drop, due to it no longer being advantageous.[/QUOTE]

The chances of having sickle cell anemia is due to race. The benefits of having sickle cell anemia based on region in areas with high incidence of malaria. Your chances of survival is increased in places like Africa but not in the United States. Once you have sickle cell anemia in your genes you have it. Once you're infected with a virus you have it. Whether the virus is activated or not is another question. The question isn't whether or not sickle cell anemia is dropping or not. If you have it and survive, you will pass it off to your offspring. When your offspring multiplies, the rate is multiplying, not dropping. Going back, different races suffer from different problems.
 
[quote name='beguile']The chances of having sickle cell anemia is due to race. The benefits of having sickle cell anemia based on region in areas with high incidence of malaria. Your chances of survival is increased in places like Africa but not in the United States. Once you have sickle cell anemia in your genes you have it. Once you're infected with a virus you have it. Whether the virus is activated or not is another question. The question isn't whether or not sickle cell anemia is dropping or not. If you have it and survive, you will pass it off to your offspring. When your offspring multiplies, the rate is multiplying, not dropping. Going back, different races suffer from different problems.[/QUOTE]

My point is it isn't race, there are varying rates among africans and it is due to regional factors, absolutely not due to race (if there was such a biological concept). If uganda had somehow been entirely populated by white europeans for the past 10 thousand years, they would also have high rates of sickle cell anemia.

Though I don't think you understand how genetics works (even compared to my minimal understanding). Just because you have a disease doesn't mean you pass it on, if it can be hereditary that is. And most people do not have full blown sickle cell anemia (those children that did often would die, I believe that's not the case, as much, in the u.s.). There is no evolutionary pressure to keep sickle cell anemia in the population. When malaria was widespread, those with mild sickle cell anemia were more likely to survive, that's why it has a high rate in much of the african population.

The malarial parasite can not live in a sickled red blood cell for two reasons. First, the body sends sickled red blood cells to the spleen for elimination. The body senses that sickled red blood cells are improperly formed, so destroys as many sickled cells as possible. If a parasite is in the cell, it also is destroyed. Second, because the cell membrane of the sickled red blood cell is stretched by its unusual shape, it becomes porous. The sickled cell "leaks" nutrients, like potassium, that the parasite needs to survive, so the parasite dies. Because the malarial parasite can not live in sickled cells, an individual with S hemoglobin is therefore resistant to the malaria.

Why does sickle cell gene persist? [size=-1][added subhead][/size]

If people with genes for S hemoglobin are debilitated or even die, how has the disease been perpetuated? The disease is perpetuated because there are two genetic levels of severity of the disease: full blown sickle cell anemia, which causes severe blood clotting and even death, and sickle cell trait, which causes fewer complications. Every organism has two entire sets of DNA, one from the mother and the other from the father. Each set has genes for eye color, hair color, etc., as well as a gene for hemoglobin. Most of us have two genes for N hemoglobin, so our hemoglobin does not clump together when deoxygenated. Those who have two S hemoglobin genes produce only S hemoglobin, and are said to have full-blown sickle cell anemia. These people usually die at an early age from excruciating, severe blood clotting. The third group has one N gene and one S gene. In this group, half of the hemoglobin will be of N type, and the other half will be of the S type and clump when deoxygenated. They are said to have sickle cell trait, rather than sickle cell anemia. This group has enough N hemoglobin to live a relatively normal life, since blood clotting is less severe.4 More importantly, this group has enough S hemoglobin to retain malarial resistance. This third group, those with sickle cell trait, perpetuate the disease.

Since sickle cell anemia is only advantageous in regions where incidence of malaria is high, it occurs less often in populations rarely exposed to malaria. For millions of years, whenever malaria swept through an area of Africa, those with sickle cell trait had a greater chance of survival than those without the trait. Those with sickle cell trait perpetuated the disease. Even today, in some areas of Africa like Uganda, up to 46% of the population may have sickle cell trait, and 2% have full-blown sickle cell anemia. In areas without malaria, sickle cell anemia and sickle cell trait are disadvantageous because of their debilitating side effects. Those with the disease can not compete against those without the disease, so reproduce less often. Therefore, the S hemoglobin gene is passed on less frequently in these populations, and the incidence of sickle cell anemia and sickle cell trait decreases. For instance, in the United States, where malaria is not a problem, only 8% of the African-American population has sickle cell trait, and 0.25% have full blown sickle cell anemia.1Sickle cell anemia and even sickle cell trait are enough of a disadvantage in malaria-free parts of the world4that their frequency of incidence decreases.

The relationship between malaria and sickle cell anemia is undeniable: both biochemical evidence and demographic evidence support the theory that sickle-cell anemia imparts malarial resistance. Biochemically, we understand that deoxygenated S hemoglobin clumps, sickling cells. We also understand that when the malarial parasite inhabits a red blood cell, it induces the cell to sickle by the Bohr effect. This sickling of cells imparts malarial resistance to the inflicted person. Demographically, we find a decreasing incidence of sickle cell anemia in African-Americans as opposed to Africans. Since sickle cell anemia is disadvantageous without the presence of malaria, those with sickle cell anemia pass on their genes for S hemoglobin less often. This biochemical and demographic evidence demonstrates how a small parasite, rampant in Africa for millions of years, has genetically influenced humans.
Click to expand...

http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~wilkins/writing/Samples/shortmed/nelson/sickle.html
 
When the sickle cell gene is recessive, it does not affect the individual. Like you said, you didn't take any classes on genetics. I wouldn't bother debating with you. Like you would even understand what I'm talking about. When the sickle cell gene is dominant, the individual will most likely die. And you're wrong. I understand how genetics work but I doubt you would.
 
[quote name='beguile']When the sickle cell gene is recessive, it does not affect the individual. Like you said, you didn't take any classes on genetics. I wouldn't bother debating with you. Like you would even understand what I'm talking about. When the sickle cell gene is dominant, the individual will most likely die. And you're wrong. I understand how genetics work but I doubt you would.[/QUOTE]

I understand it enough to know that you're wrong in you beliefs that sickle cell anemia is increasing, and that if you have it you will definately pass it on to your children. Besides, I posted information done by someone with plenty of knowledge of genetics. Completely ignoring everything I've said, or linked to, seems to just be a convenient excuse to hide, what seems to be, the fact that you're just as knowledgeless, if not moreso, than me. You haven't done anything to show what I said was wrong. I can't argue genetics in depth without giving footnotes for everything I say, but this isn't complicated. There are multiple things at play here, it isn't purely a topic of genetics.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']I understand it enough to know that you're wrong in you beliefs that sickle cell anemia is increasing, and that if you have it you will definately pass it on to your children. Besides, I posted information done by someone with plenty of knowledge of genetics. Completely ignoring everything I've said, or linked to, seems to just be a convenient excuse to hide, what seems to be, the fact that you're just as knowledgeless, if not moreso, than me. You haven't done anything to show what I said was wrong. I can't argue genetics in depth without giving footnotes for everything I say, but this isn't complicated. There are multiple things at play here, it isn't purely a topic of genetics.[/QUOTE]

Can't you summarize what he said in the article in your own words? Just posting what someone wrote doesn't make what you said accurate. You have no statistics or data that sickle cell anemia is dropping. I'm not even arguing whether it's increasing or decreasing. I could care less about it. What I am saying is that sickle cell anemia exist and it is most likely affect African Americans than any other races.

READ the last sentence carefully. I don't care if it's increasing or decreasing. This topic was created to see if there were differences in terms of academics. I stated genetics doesn't affect someone's academic potential but genetics does affect someone's potential in getting certain health problems. Don't argue with something that I'm not even interested in. Who cares if sickle cell is dropping or increasing. I'm not African American but it is important to know the differences exist between the races.
 
Anyone who's taken any Asian American Studies, Sociology, or Anthro class knows that the model minority theory is just a myth used to oppress other minorities in racial triangulation. What a suprise eh? Asians are people too.
 
[quote name='Zoglog']Anyone who's taken any Asian American Studies, Sociology, or Anthro class knows that the model minority theory is just a myth used to oppress other minorities in racial triangulation. What a suprise eh? Asians are people too.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I learned about that. Asians are depicted as the "model minority" so that the other minorities can "strive" to be more like this model. Meanwhile, white people hang out at the top while everyone down below is fighting. Good times sleeping in class, hehe.
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']I thought this was a topic about minorities, not how awesome white people are.;)[/QUOTE]

Don't get me started on martial arts. Ralph Macchio will take on all of China!
 
[quote name='camoor']Don't get me started on martial arts. Ralph Macchio will take on all of China![/QUOTE]

Nah. Dont even try to diss BRUCE LEE. Now go back to your practice.
 
[quote name='camoor']Don't get me started on martial arts. Ralph Macchio will take on all of China![/QUOTE]

Donnie Yen
Shaolin monks.

Okay, back to the original topic, hehe
 
[quote name='beguile']His legacy lives on. Scared you for a second, didn't I?[/QUOTE]

No, I'm pretty sure his legacy died out when his son's brains hit the wall.;)
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']No, I'm pretty sure his legacy died out when his son's brains hit the wall.;)[/QUOTE]

Yea im pretty sure you're jealous of his success.
 
[quote name='camoor']Isn't mousin asian?

Now that I think of it, in his famous thread I believe someone said "Mousin, you're a disgrace to all asians!" :lol:[/QUOTE]

Which I believe was quickly fallowed by "Mousin, you are a disgrace to all humanity", "Mousin, the eternal disgrace of galaxy" and "Mousin, the man who makes neutrinos cry".
 
[quote name='docvinh']Bah, I'm asian and I suck at math. Now my brother and sister, that's another story....[/QUOTE]

I have an asian friend who is smart, but clueless and lazy. For example, he directed me to his house one time while sitting in the passenger seat and didn't know the road we were on, which he took everyday to and from school, was a highway (and didn't know the highway existed when I mentioned the name either). He doesn't know the name of the major highway 2 minutes from his house either. He doesn't study any more than he absolutely has to (look over the stuff for a half hour before a test type thing). He just drifts around, no idea what he wants to do in college(going into 3rd year of college), what job he wants etc. There's no way I can do justice to his level of clueless drifting, while simultaneously stressing his intelligence. He's like the stoner kid who never did or cared about anything, except he passed in all his assignments (and shows up to work), and doesn't drink/smoke/party.

Nicest guy, but his indecisiveness is maddening. No matter how hard you try you'll never figure out what he really wants to do (down to basic things, such as wanna get lunch), or what he really thinks.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']
Nicest guy, but his indecisiveness is maddening. No matter how hard you try you'll never figure out what he really wants to do (down to basic things, such as wanna get lunch), or what he really thinks.[/QUOTE]

Sounds like an ideal person, where do you find people like this?
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']There's no way I can do justice to his level of clueless drifting, while simultaneously stressing his intelligence. He's like the stoner kid who never did or cared about anything, except he passed in all his assignments (and shows up to work), and doesn't drink/smoke/party.

Nicest guy, but his indecisiveness is maddening. No matter how hard you try you'll never figure out what he really wants to do (down to basic things, such as wanna get lunch), or what he really thinks.[/QUOTE]

Maybe he is the Buddha.
 
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