Are teachers (K-12) undercompensated?

[quote name='Msut77']Don't be silly. If it was a gubberment takeover every one could have cheaper decent health insurance.[/QUOTE]

ftfy
healthcare outcomes are a seperate deal, one that your average derpaderp can't quite figure out. Obamacare means your doctor is a federale` and all that...
 
Teachers are very important to a country's future. Thus we need decent salary and benefit packages to get people to opt for that profession vs. something in the private sector.

And it's something we still don't do a good job of. Studies show very few top of the class college graduates go on to be teachers. They're going after six figure type jobs. Some studies even suggest that most teachers come from the bottom third of college graduating classes--though I did read something disputing that a while back. But even that still noted that relatively few come from the top third.
 
[quote name='Javery']You can also retire after 25 years and get a pretty nice pension plan (the amount is reduced by 3% for every year you are under 55 years of age). So you could come out of college and retire by 46 or 47 and have a very long life ahead of you with a nice supplement to your second career/job.[/QUOTE]
About half the teachers in the US have a graduate degree and some states require it for "tenure."

I don't think my position is doublespeak (of course I do so much of that on a daily basis I probably can't even tell). I'm not against teacher pay because I care about the quality of teachers, however, I do think that they have benefits that are much much better than the average employee, which is rarely addressed when discussing teacher salaries. My position is that they are not underpaid.
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Do you know why they have "better" benefits? Because the private sector has been stripping them away for 40 years by destroying unions and shipping jobs overseas. The wealth distribution and income rates are practically flat for a vast majority of income earning households with the valid argument of it's decline when accounting for two earner households.

I just hate the current system and how powerful the union has become. Most of my "outrage" stems from the fact that it is next to impossible to fire a tenured teacher and whether or not you are actually good at your job (or at least better than the next guy) doesn't come into play. The difference between my daughter's first grade teacher (unbelievably awesome) and kindergarten teacher (mentally handicapped? Wouldn't surprise me.) is crazy but I'd bet a year's salary that the kindergarten teacher makes considerably more per year simply because she is older and been in the system longer.
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How is this different from any job? There are always assholes at any workplace that seem to stick around regardless of incompetence. I highly doubt that this is unique to public sector jobs and people hardly complain about corrupt cops along with their powerful unions. I don't even see how seniority pay factors into this when this is also pretty common in the private sector as well.

If the system was set up so that the best teachers were rewarded with job security and higher wages I probably wouldn't care as much but the fact that everyone is treated the same no matter how good or bad they are at their job makes me nuts.
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Good thing they aren't treated the same, so you don't have to worry about it.

I left out "Toyota" too! I do love the Acura even though it is going on 7 years old. I'm not a car guy so we will be driving these until the wheels fall off - hopefully we get 12 years or more out of each car. Also, as much as I love the Acura, my Rav4 is great and only cost about 60% of what I paid for the Acura so I don't think I'll be buying another Acura in the future but who knows.

I had a horrible experience with my Jetta. Tons of recalls and one time my driver's side window shattered when I tried to put the window down due to a faulty design in the motor. Repairs were also way too expensive. Never again. :cry:
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I think the point is that you make a shit load of money.
 
[quote name='camoor']Don't get all butthurt because you picked a shitty profession and you put up with getting paid shitty wages.[/QUOTE]

Who got butthurt over anything? Thanks for the comment though. It added a ton to the discussion.
 
[quote name='berzirk']Who got butthurt over anything? Thanks for the comment though. It added a ton to the discussion.[/QUOTE]

[quote name='camoor']Everyone deserves a living wage. But I have no sympathy for someone who pulls a "misery loves company" routine instead of standing up for what they deserve.

You and bezkirk should worry a little less about what everyone else makes and a little more about why you are such bitter whiny assholes.[/QUOTE]

Oops, nevermind, this one was what I really should have quoted. I have no idea what you make, I probably make more, but I can almost guarantee that the industry I'm in is one you'd love to join (gaming, entertainment, technology that helps the disabled).

So a quick question. Why do you think you need to resort to petty name-calling instead of offering a sound rebuttal? Do you get that it doesn't really move anything forward? You probably don't get it or don't care, but since I think you ocassionally do offer sound comments I've elected in the past to not ignore you, but honestly, if this kind of stuff is the best you've got, either save us both the time and just tell your buddy the wildly clever comment you've got, or give me a head's up that you have no desire to have a real conversation, and I can just ignore you.

...and my wife, mom, and sister are teachers. I wish I would've studied ed in college instead, and I volunteer extensively with youth organizations, and I coach athletics. I'm about as involved as I can be with education and kids, without actually being a teacher. It's a profession I admire, as I've stated repeatedly in my first post.
 
[quote name='nasum']Wow. So if your salary is your set pay for the year despite hours worked, what's the distinction between any other salaried professional? Ok, so a teacher works ten months but gets paid $40k. Do they make $4k a month for 10 months or $3,333 per month for 12 months? You seem to be locked into this notion that they get paid for punching the clock (and get away with murder by not punching the clock when students aren't in class) despite their salary basis.
False equivalence pal.

Yes, the 1st day of summer vacation, every teacher in the district gets their review. Hundreds of teachers get their 45 second review and go on their merry way! It's a wonderful system!
How many weeks of vacation do you get at your job? Maybe 4? Maybe 6? Guess what, that's a month off! So your slaving away for 12 months is a moot point as it is balanced by vacation days. Do you get sick days too?

Well good on you for not respecting your lady's profession. Take your anecdotal evidence of her going into soap opera and bon-bon mode the day summer vacation starts and contrast it with reality.

Tell me where we exalted teachers as the only stressful job in the world? Are you just making shit up, or are you really that fucking stupid? I'm quite curious.

See above, you don't work 365 days a year either but you get a yearly salary. Break it down however you want. Let's say a diligent birzirk works two saturdays a month, that's still 78 weekend days per year it sits around doing jackshit! Let's lynch it![/QUOTE]

No, I'm really this fucking stupid. It's been a challenge all my life to catch up to the intellectual might of someone like you, and let's face it, unless you become severely brain damaged and spend years in a vegetative state, I'll never have a chance to catch up.

I could go on and list all my work benefits I suppose if you're really curious. Your assumptions are wrong on just about every topic. I also work/volunteer part-time at the local Boys and Girls Club. Not sure if you want me to include my hours. Just let me know. I really want to make sure I please you with a rebuttal.

And I don't respect my wife, mother, and sister's profession, yet I've interviewed once for a teaching job and made it as the #2 candidate, losing out to #1 because the guy had 6 months towards his credential and I didn't have any hours towards it. Principal telling me that he wanted to hire me, but the school board said he had to hire the other guy because of his work towards his credential. You're right. I don't respect the profession, and think they're a bunch of overpaid, lazy a-holes. Damn, you're on fire today. Offer more assumptions about me, this is a real chance for me to grow as a person. Your input is invaluable!

We've been fortunate enough to have my wife stay at home after having our first child, she's 7 months pregnant with #3, and we're hoping by the time that one goes off to school, she can update her certs and start teaching again. I'll call her later today to inform her that a guy on a videogame forum says I don't respect her profession though. I don't think she was aware.

:applause:
 
[quote name='berzirk']Oops, nevermind, this one was what I really should have quoted. I have no idea what you make, I probably make more, but I can almost guarantee that the industry I'm in is one you'd love to join (gaming, entertainment, technology that helps the disabled).

So a quick question. Why do you think you need to resort to petty name-calling instead of offering a sound rebuttal? Do you get that it doesn't really move anything forward? You probably don't get it or don't care, but since I think you ocassionally do offer sound comments I've elected in the past to not ignore you, but honestly, if this kind of stuff is the best you've got, either save us both the time and just tell your buddy the wildly clever comment you've got, or give me a head's up that you have no desire to have a real conversation, and I can just ignore you.

...and my wife, mom, and sister are teachers. I wish I would've studied ed in college instead, and I volunteer extensively with youth organizations, and I coach athletics. I'm about as involved as I can be with education and kids, without actually being a teacher. It's a profession I admire, as I've stated repeatedly in my first post.[/QUOTE]

If I was a teacher and I heard this nonsense I'd reply in 5 succinct words "Money talks and bullshit walks"

You see, the way we value things is a capitalist society is money. So it's nice that you "admire" teachers but apparently you don't value the extensive education and training they must acquire, or the fact that class hours don't tell the whole picture, or their overall contribution to society. So forgive me if I find this last post to be an exercise in disingenuous backpedaling.

Admiration is all well and good but it doesn't pay the bills.
 
and yet you manage to not point out where anyone said teaching is the most stressful job in the world. My question remains, are you making that up or are you a numbskull that read that into some oether post where someone said it is a stressful job and that means it's the only stressful job?

I didn't ask you to list all of your benefits and time off. I simply stated that you get paid time off at your job. If you're going to go down the line of thinking that "teachers get the summer off of work and still get paid" then you can take a paid vacation too. You're comparing oranges and calling one of them a pineapple because it somehow fits the frame of the argument you've setup. It doesn't.

So you personally know 3 teachers and applied to be one yourself. Why are you ragging on the profession? Feel free to presume that I'm calling them whatever, you're the one that has done it throughout this thread. Again, stupid or just making stuff up because you're bored?
 
[quote name='nasum']and yet you manage to not point out where anyone said teaching is the most stressful job in the world. My question remains, are you making that up or are you a numbskull that read that into some oether post where someone said it is a stressful job and that means it's the only stressful job?

I didn't ask you to list all of your benefits and time off. I simply stated that you get paid time off at your job. If you're going to go down the line of thinking that "teachers get the summer off of work and still get paid" then you can take a paid vacation too. You're comparing oranges and calling one of them a pineapple because it somehow fits the frame of the argument you've setup. It doesn't.

So you personally know 3 teachers and applied to be one yourself. Why are you ragging on the profession? Feel free to presume that I'm calling them whatever, you're the one that has done it throughout this thread. Again, stupid or just making stuff up because you're bored?[/QUOTE]

It's because admiration is free.

If you truly are making great videogames then I admire the work you do berzirk, can I have your videogames for supercheap or free because I admire your work? Or would you feel insulted that I do not truly value your hard work?
 
[quote name='camoor']If I was a teacher and I heard this nonsense I'd reply in 5 succinct words "Money talks and bullshit walks"

You see, the way we value things is a capitalist society is money. So it's nice that you "admire" teachers but apparently you don't value the extensive education and training they must acquire, or the fact that class hours don't tell the whole picture, or their overall contribution to society. So forgive me if I find this last post to be an exercise in disingenuous backpedaling.

Admiration is all well and good but it doesn't pay the bills.[/QUOTE]


Exactly. And I don't see why people bitch about teacher salaries given:

1. How important good teachers are to society's future.

2. How grossly overpaid people are in many other professions that aren't nearly as important to the progress of society.

I mean I get some of the gripes about not having enough accountability, tenure making it to hard to fire bad teachers etc. But those are different issues and aside from the point of what good teachers deserve to be paid.
 
[quote name='camoor']If I was a teacher and I heard this nonsense I'd reply in 5 succinct words "Money talks and bullshit walks"

You see, the way we value things is a capitalist society is money. So it's nice that you "admire" teachers but apparently you don't value the extensive education and training they must acquire, or the fact that class hours don't tell the whole picture, or their overall contribution to society. So forgive me if I find this last post to be an exercise in disingenuous backpedaling.

Admiration is all well and good but it doesn't pay the bills.[/QUOTE]

I don't value the educational and training requirements? Of course I do. It's expensive, and at least in the State of Oregon, a Masters is required. They are incredibly expensive (as the proud husband of a now student-loanless wife). In fact in my other post I mention that I lost out on a teaching job I really wanted because I hadn't yet taken any classes. When did I ever say otherwise? Also, when did I say that I don't understand teachers spend lots of time out of the classroom working? You're arguing points I haven't made. Did you mean to quote someone else?

[quote name='nasum']and yet you manage to not point out where anyone said teaching is the most stressful job in the world. My question remains, are you making that up or are you a numbskull that read that into some oether post where someone said it is a stressful job and that means it's the only stressful job?[/QUOTE]

My point is that it's not the only stressful job, so using that as the reason why teachers should have summers off, or are underpaid is silly. But to answer your question, I'm a numbskull.

I didn't ask you to list all of your benefits and time off. I simply stated that you get paid time off at your job. If you're going to go down the line of thinking that "teachers get the summer off of work and still get paid" then you can take a paid vacation too. You're comparing oranges and calling one of them a pineapple because it somehow fits the frame of the argument you've setup. It doesn't.
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I don't get 10 weeks of paid anything off. That's the duration of a California teacher's summer break. I fail to see how that becomes a pineapple.

So you personally know 3 teachers and applied to be one yourself. Why are you ragging on the profession? Feel free to presume that I'm calling them whatever, you're the one that has done it throughout this thread. Again, stupid or just making stuff up because you're bored?
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No, I personally know a lot more than that, but I guess I should've cleared their views through you first. Is email or fax better for you? Do they need to get their statements notorized to be validated by you, or can a personal witness attest to their statement? They list out the summers off as the biggest perk of the job. It's sensational for families because they can spend the breaks together, and the retirement and benefits packages are very competitive as well. I am stupid and bored, have no basis for an opinion on the profession through first hand knowledge, personal investigation, and relationships with lots of educators. Also, I have bad breath and a zit on my ass today.
 
[quote name='camoor']It's because admiration is free.

If you truly are making great videogames then I admire the work you do berzirk, can I have your videogames for supercheap or free because I admire your work? Or would you feel insulted that I do not truly value your hard work?[/QUOTE]

We're actually middleware for one product line, so we don't make the games, we work with the devs and producers to provide tools. I've gotten a decent amount of free games though from working with some of those devs. Great job perk. I'd get you a good discount on the PC Gaming peripheral (different product line) we make if you're interested. Feel free to PM me if you are and I'll send you a link to it and answer any questions. I'd rather not be guilty of advertising it on CAG, when that's not my intention. Wait, what was your analogy again?
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Exactly. And I don't see why people bitch about teacher salaries given:

1. How important good teachers are to society's future.

2. How grossly overpaid people are in many other professions that aren't nearly as important to the progress of society.

I mean I get some of the gripes about not having enough accountability, tenure making it to hard to fire bad teachers etc. But those are different issues and aside from the point of what good teachers deserve to be paid.[/QUOTE]

Ditto. I would say teachers are terribly underpaid as shown by the terrible brain drain in teachers K-12. However, before any pay raises come about there is a serious need for reform and accountability.
 
[quote name='berzirk']We're actually middleware for one product line, so we don't make the games, we work with the devs and producers to provide tools. I've gotten a decent amount of free games though from working with some of those devs. Great job perk. I'd get you a good discount on the PC Gaming peripheral (different product line) we make if you're interested. Feel free to PM me if you are and I'll send you a link to it and answer any questions. I'd rather not be guilty of advertising it on CAG, when that's not my intention. Wait, what was your analogy again?[/QUOTE]

Haha you want to play this game. OK.

I'm interested in investing - how much is the company paying you? If I buy out the company can I lower your salary because I admire the great sales job you do so much? Will you stay or just say fuck that noise.

It's a hypothetical so don't get too worked up...
 
[quote name='camoor']Haha you want to play this game. OK.

I'm interested in investing - how much is the company paying you? If I buy out the company can I lower your salary because I admire the great sales job you do so much? Will you stay or just say fuck that noise.

It's a hypothetical so don't get too worked up...[/QUOTE]

Bleh, OK. So I won't tell you how much I'm being paid, it's a privately held company, and if you owned it and said you planned on lowering my salary (who in this thread has said we should pay teachers less?), but will be matching state worker's benefits, it would depend on how much you wanted to lower my salary. I'd have to evaluate if it was worth it to stay with this organization...so for the love of God...what is your point?
 
[quote name='berzirk']Bleh, OK. So I won't tell you how much I'm being paid, it's a privately held company, and if you owned it and said you planned on lowering my salary (who in this thread has said we should pay teachers less?), but will be matching state worker's benefits, it would depend on how much you wanted to lower my salary. I'd have to evaluate if it was worth it to stay with this organization...so for the love of God...what is your point?[/QUOTE]

Teachers are skilled labor, if you want good teachers you need to pay good salaries - otherwise many of the best, like you or me or any other talented and skilled labor, will walk and you'll be left with alot of dead wood.

The fact that you admire teachers (you know that three paragraph post where you went on and on..) means exactly jack shit if that admiration doesn't translate into supporting their effort to receive fair compensation.
 
[quote name='camoor']Teachers are skilled labor, if you want good teachers you need to pay good salaries - otherwise many of the best, like you or me or any other talented and skilled labor, will walk and you'll be left with alot of dead wood.

The fact that you admire teachers (you know that three paragraph post where you went on and on..) means exactly jack shit if that admiration doesn't translate into supporting their effort to receive fair compensation.[/QUOTE]

Oh, I thought wanting to be a teacher, applying, and actively looking into ways to make it happen would have also accounted for something more than just admiration. Or financially and emotionally supporting my wife throughout her masters, using my income to pay for classroom supplies before starting her first teaching job, spending several weekends helping her in her classroom, would also count for more. Maybe it doesn't to you, and that's fine. We can disagree on how much you think I supported her. I would question where you get your information, but whatever.

IMO they are fairly compensated currently. Others in this thread have agreed or disagreed, thus the point of me creating the thread. To spur discussion on a topic I'm interested in.

It isn't just admiration, it's the career path I hope to get on at some point if I can make it happen financially (by effectively taking a year off from my current job to get my masters).

The job market works both ways. Employers need to pay more in a strong economy to entice desired workers to choose them, and when the economy is terrible, employers have much more power because there is a larger pool of unemployed skilled labor. Right now the economy is terrible, therefore a majority of the power is with employers.
 
[quote name='camoor']I said you are bitter and whiny.

It's true that you almost never say anything bad about Wally World and your corporate masters.

Instead you whine about the government alot. You also sound really bitter when you talk about welfare or government projects for the poor.[/QUOTE]

Yay - poorly done psychiatric profile from some random guy on the internet with likely no real experience in the field based on his lousy comprehension of a few of my internet ramblings.

Shoot me your PayPal address and I'll send you the two cents that was worth.

[quote name='berzirk']So a quick question. Why do you think you need to resort to petty name-calling instead of offering a sound rebuttal?[/QUOTE]

Welcome to Vs.
 
[quote name='berzirk']Oh, I thought wanting to be a teacher, applying, and actively looking into ways to make it happen would have also accounted for something more than just admiration. Or financially and emotionally supporting my wife throughout her masters, using my income to pay for classroom supplies before starting her first teaching job, spending several weekends helping her in her classroom, would also count for more. Maybe it doesn't to you, and that's fine. We can disagree on how much you think I supported her. I would question where you get your information, but whatever.

IMO they are fairly compensated currently. Others in this thread have agreed or disagreed, thus the point of me creating the thread. To spur discussion on a topic I'm interested in.

It isn't just admiration, it's the career path I hope to get on at some point if I can make it happen financially (by effectively taking a year off from my current job to get my masters).

The job market works both ways. Employers need to pay more in a strong economy to entice desired workers to choose them, and when the economy is terrible, employers have much more power because there is a larger pool of unemployed skilled labor. Right now the economy is terrible, therefore a majority of the power is with employers.[/QUOTE]

Methinks you dost protest too much, like the racist who says "but I have black friends!"

And you asked whether teachers are undercompensated, not about everyone in general.

Most working folks are undercompensated and many white collar folks too - the only people who are uniformly overcompensated are the elite executive class.

A laissez-faire market =/= economic justice. For example - just because you can hire folks for slave wages in China, Philipines, or it doesn't mean they are being fairly compensated, it just means that they don't have any better options.
 
I've known a few teachers, early in their careers, some of them had to work part time jobs just to make ends meet, especially with loan debt from school. So yeah, overpaid bastards.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Not sure it's anything new. I've never had patience for bitter, whiny people who hate their jobs and talk shit about other professions as a result. Especially someone like Javery who makes six figures as a lawyer and still bitches and moans all the time.

I don't think anyone posting on here was born into a ghetto broken home or anything based on what all the regulars have posted about themselves over the years. So it's pretty safe to say that most (if not all) on here have no one but themselves to blame if they're not happy with their career choices.[/QUOTE]

I was. :cry:
 
[SIZE=10pt]Different areas, cities and, accordingly, different wages. Everyone, of course, chooses his own career, but I was incredibly happy when I started working at Edusson Australia and finally didn’t check my homework until late at night. In this respect, the dissertation writing service has given me the freedom of which I have not yet been satisfied. Still, a bigger problem, as for me, is the financing of education in general.[/SIZE]

 
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