Brief Baby Boom. 2007, most births ever. 40% out of wedlock.

whatever. the point about the 'welfare mom' stuff is that we're imposing on the data information that isn't there by assuming "out of wedlock" = "low SES," so it's incorrect and false to make any assumption about who these unwed parents are - single mothers who do and don't plan their pregnancies, cohabiting couples, or otherwise, without even beginning to think about their annual income.
 
True.

Though I guess one could argue that teen mothers tend to be lower SES as teen birth rates are higher among low SES families.
 
Yep, but the OP was about rising teen pregnancy rates mostly. Though it's a bit of jumbled mess with the article quote talking teen pregnancy and the OP (I think) mentioning stats about overall out of wedlock rates).

So really have no idea what half the people are talking about--teen pregnancy? Single mothers in general? Who the hell knows for some of these posts and they're very different issue.
 
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I know, but I'd like to think people weren't such simpletons to have one ideology that lumps teen pregnancy, welfare moms and single mothers under the same umbrella.....

....but this is the CAG vs. forum and this is the US where blind, simplistic idological allegiance rules the landscape.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']They're talking about their ideologies.[/quote]
Well, if I didn't always do that then I might never get a chance to post.


[quote name='dmaul1114']I know, but I'd like to think people weren't such simpletons to have one ideology that lumps teen pregnancy, welfare moms and single mothers under the same umbrella.....

....but this is the CAG vs. forum and this is the US where blind, simplistic idological allegiance rules the landscape.[/quote]
Oh, and have some humility^^^.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']I know, but I'd like to think people weren't such simpletons to have one ideology that lumps teen pregnancy, welfare moms and single mothers under the same umbrella.....

....but this is the CAG vs. forum and this is the US where blind, simplistic idological allegiance rules the landscape.[/QUOTE]

If you studied social psychology you'd know about schema...;)
 
Oh, I know about schema....I'm just kindhearted and still make the mistake of giving people the benefit of the doubt when it comes to capacity for independent thinking. :D
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Nobody should be forced to take or do anything.

People should be made aware of options for safe sex and abstinence.

So you're argument holds no water, and is just your typical ideological nonsense.[/quote]

I think this is a problem, though. I don't think all the options and the consequences of these options are put on the table when it comes up in a conversation or school.
 
[quote name='KingBroly']I think this is a problem, though. I don't think all the options and the consequences of these options are put on the table when it comes up in a conversation or school.[/QUOTE]

I agree. And that's the problem. They need to cover every form of birth control (how to use it, its effectiveness, side effects etc.), STDs (and what does and doesn't prevent them), dispel myths (like pulling out being effective) etc. etc., and through in some abstinence. Obviously it needs to be age appropriate, and some of the stuff isn't needed in elementary schools.

Cover all the bases.

The problem is much of the country is far to prudish about sex to be comfortable with frank discussions of sex, or anything that implies that there's nothing wrong with pre-marital sex. :roll:
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']I agree. And that's the problem. They need to cover every form of birth control (how to use it, its effectiveness, side effects etc.), STDs (and what does and doesn't prevent them), dispel myths (like pulling out being effective) etc. etc., and through in some abstinence. Obviously it needs to be age appropriate, and some of the stuff isn't needed in elementary schools.

Cover all the bases.

The problem is much of the country is far to prudish about sex to be comfortable with frank discussions of sex, or anything that implies that there's nothing wrong with pre-marital sex. :roll:[/quote]

I've sometimes been very surprised by teen girls coming in and almost knowing more about birth control than me... "I've tried the patch, pill, ring, depo shots, etc... is there something else..." You really shouldn't have to know about all this stuff at 16... but a lot of these girls are from disadvantaged backgrounds and never got the attention that they needed from their parents... so they seek it from the first scumbag who says he loves them in order to get into their panties... but I digress...

Presenting birth control and safe sex options is a good idea overall, but I still think abstinence should be presented as the safest and most laudable option...

...and BTW, pulling out is very effective if done correctly! :D Let's just make kids watch porn in sex ed and tell them to do it that way... no one would get pregnant... although it might get messy...

Also, ceftriaxone and azithromycin for all... it seems like everyone has chlamydia nowadays...
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Nobody should be forced to take or do anything.

People should be made aware of options for safe sex and abstinence.

So you're argument holds no water, and is just your typical ideological nonsense.[/QUOTE]


Yeah, no one should be forced to alter their behavior, regardless of the consequences.

Except or all the people who are forced to pay for the bastard children on welfare. Forced to extend tax credits to the unwilling, un-working poor. Forced to pay for their education by social fiat when their parent is a non-contributor to the taxbase. Forced to pay for their medical bills by re-distributed medical billing because they can't, or won't get a job. Forced to pay for their heat and electricity through subsidies and "programs" to help the needy by overbilling people who can pay. Forced to pay for the subsidized mass transit, bus, and taxi programs in various cities to help the poor get around. Forced to pay through federal taxes, the rent due on the section 8 housing you've been granted. And forced to listen to the endless rhetoric of the same people and their advocates who scream they aren't getting enough of what I earn and what other people choose to produce through their own effort.

It's so easy to go on the dole, that there is virtually no incentive to ever do anything else. We all want that job that pays us for siting on our ass playing videogames all day - don't deny it. The problem is that we're doing just that. Why would anyone want to work if they don't have to in order to eat?

Without giving away my profession,( as it's none of your business how I rape and pillage the poor and take away their money in order to live high on the hog) I see and deal with these people every day. I see the unwed mothers, the ones with multiple children, the ones who smoke weed upstairs and yell at their children to turn down the goddamned television cause she can't hear her cellphone conversation. I see the xboxes and cable TV subscribed "poor" children who play videogames al day because their parents don't give a shit about them. They have no problem buying Halo 3 or a quart of Seagrams after getting cash for their foodstamps instead of getting a loaf of bread and some lunchmeat. What the fuck do they care - their kids get free lunch at school becuase they're too poor to pay for it.

I see the youth that openly plans vandalism because they're just bored or just want to beat someone up for something to do instead of going to school. I see them come and go as they please in a house with no supervision, no direction, no self-worth or life lessons to be found. I'm talking five years old left to wander neighborhoods because mom's smoking crack and dad's already in jail. This is some village we've created, ripe for even more government crisis intervention. Unfortunately, it's the government that created it in the first place by wanting to "help" people.

I see the potential in children squandered by parents who just don't give a fuck about the life they created because they know someone else will look out for their basic needs. You'd think it would facilitate more parent involvement since the basics are taken care of, but it doesn't. The sense of ownership, responsibility, and pride is lost. Everyone becomes responsible, so , in effect, no one is ultimately responsible. Teach sex to my kids? That's the schools job. Teach them how to get a job? That's the gubment's problem. Teach them how to budget money? Huh? Is you CRAZY? Why do I needs to budget money? I see the tragedy that the welfare system has wrought on 2 generations of recipients who no longer have self-respect, and therefore, don't have respect for anyone else's, or their own, property, or life.

You people in your ivory, ivy covered towers have no idea what lies beneath your statistics and the misery this system creates. Your superior attitude that you know what and how to help people and think your solutions have a monopoly on intellectual bases is frightening. So go back to your number crunching, idealistic social crusades that look and sound so good on paper. I hope it makes you feel good to think you're doing god work for the common good. You are absolved because of your good intentions. Hopefully, you'll never have to get your hands dirty and deal with actual human condition. We are, after all, just numbers in the glorious system that will save us all. Thank god for the intellectuals. Or do I have the government to thank for them too?
 
Indeed.

And bmulligan, you're putting up a bit of a straw man there. Few think the welfare system is perfect, and many (myself included) would consider the people you describe as the types of unfit welfare mothers who should have their children placed in foster care (and thus lose the welfare benefits for popping out multiple kids they can't afford) and face penalties if they have any more children while still on welfare.

It's a shame we need a welfare system, but we can't have children starving. But it needs reform so that it doesn't encourage some to have children to get benefits.
 
[quote name='KingBroly']The octomom, perhaps?

Anymore demographic breakdowns that can be divulged? I'm also wondering about the percentage of children born to unwed couples. Are those counted in the 40% or not (what I'm asking is does this fall into the single women category)?[/quote]

Ok, you've got one. That doesn't prove dog shit. How many millions are getting money or whatever from these programs?
 
Bmull, your state needs to implement the same restrictions that other states do. In New York, they don't let you buy alcohol, tobacco, or gift cards with EBT (welfare) money.

Abstinence is still the best way to prevent pregnancy and disease. Excluding everything else is completely unrealistic though. Schools should be giving out condoms. Before all the conservatives go all crazy, realize it's not encouraging sexual activity. It's all about safety and the future of these kids. You can't have it both ways. You can't be outraged at kids having babies when you don't offer condoms that could easily prevent many of them.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']I agree. And that's the problem. They need to cover every form of birth control (how to use it, its effectiveness, side effects etc.), STDs (and what does and doesn't prevent them), dispel myths (like pulling out being effective) etc. etc., and through in some abstinence. Obviously it needs to be age appropriate, and some of the stuff isn't needed in elementary schools.[/quote]

I haven't read past this point in the thread yet. If somebody made the same point, meh.

I would argue showing the actual costs of raising a child (daycare, diapers, vaccinations, clothes, etc.) would serve as an excellent deterrent or nudge/push people into using multiple forms of birth control. Of course, this has to be coupled with forcing people to pay out of pocket for everything instead of having assistance programs. If we had to pay the $20K required to bring Caitlyn home from the hospital and full price on all of her vaccines, her brother might still be in the planning stages instead turning 3 at the end of this month.

People have been beating around the bush regarding the male birth control pill with heavy side effects: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gossypol.
 
[quote name='depascal22']Bmull, your state needs to implement the same restrictions that other states do. In New York, they don't let you buy alcohol, tobacco, or gift cards with EBT (welfare) money. [/quote]

I think he meant people selling food stamps and using the money for alcohol etc. People sell them for less than the value of the stamps so they have cash they can use for booze etc.


[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']I haven't read past this point in the thread yet. If somebody made the same point, meh.

I would argue showing the actual costs of raising a child (daycare, diapers, vaccinations, clothes, etc.) would serve as an excellent deterrent or nudge/push people into using multiple forms of birth control. Of course, this has to be coupled with forcing people to pay out of pocket for everything instead of having assistance programs. If we had to pay the $20K required to bring Caitlyn home from the hospital and full price on all of her vaccines, her brother might still be in the planning stages instead turning 3 at the end of this month.
[/QUOTE]

Sure. That could be part of standard sex ed curriculum as well. Like I said, the key is to give them all the info and the full picture (age appropriate of course).
 
I don't think the expenses would matter to teenagers. Anything you tell them won't be considered anyway. You can show them nasty pictures of STDs and they still fuck like rabbits. You show them mangled accidents and they still don't wear seatbelts. You show them strung out crack whores and they still rush to the dope man after school.

You guys seem to forget that teenagers fuck everything up. They make horrible decisions because they believe they know everything. They really know nothing but who the hell can tell them that?

So there's only two solutions to this problem. Educate the kids and offer condoms. Or you can pull all welfare benefits and allow these families to starve. It's survival of the fittest after all. It's also a hell of alot cheaper than lacing drinking water with libido killing or sterilizing chemicals.

There's also a third option but it'll never happen. Maybe we can stop glamorizing sex in the media. Kids are bombarded with messages that everyone (including your grandparents) is having sex and enjoying it. Well, everyone except for YOU. You better get cracking but you can't use condoms or have babies. Now, parents are shocked that their babies are having (gasp) oral and anal sex instead of risking pregnancy. Because, duh, it's not really sex if you can't have a baby.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Nobody should be forced to take or do anything.[/QUOTE]

Too bad you don't extend this to the rest of people's lives.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']They're talking about their ideologies.[/QUOTE]

[quote name='dmaul1114']Oh, I know about schema....I'm just kindhearted and still make the mistake of giving people the benefit of the doubt when it comes to capacity for independent thinking. :D[/QUOTE]

The people you're criticizing may or may not be driven by ideology. Either way, are you suggesting the two of you have no ideologies whatsoever, and do nothing but think independently?
 
Everyone leans a certain way.

But I do think about each issue and don't automatically adopt the party line or any ideological line, nor ignore nuances/facts and assume, for instance, that all mothers on welfare or dregs on society etc. etc. because some abuse the system.

There's a difference between having believes that lean right or left overall just due to your informed opinions on the individual issues and just mindly taking a stance on issues because of your ideology.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Everyone leans a certain way.

But I do think about each issue and don't automatically adopt the party line or any ideological line, nor ignore nuances/facts and assume, for instance, that all mothers on welfare or dregs on society etc. etc. because some abuse the system.

There's a difference between having believes that lean right or left overall just due to your informed opinions on the individual issues and just mindly taking a stance on issues because of your ideology.[/QUOTE]

I assume you meant "mindlessly". So are you saying every stance you have, you arrived at by thinking independently? There isn't a single opinion somewhere in your mind that was basically just put there by some outside influence?
 
Nothing that I can think of that was totally shaped by outside influence. Yeah I lean certain ways, but I generally read up on stuff, read differing opinions and think things through before developing a firm opinion on an issue.

Uniformed opinions are completely useless. I've always hated things like religion and politics so I've always made an effort to tune out such stuff and look at the facts and come to informed opinions and beliefs.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Nothing that I can think of that was totally shaped by outside influence. Yeah I lean certain ways, but I generally read up on stuff, read differing opinions and think things through before developing a firm opinion on an issue.

Uniformed opinions are completely useless. I've always hated things like religion and politics so I've always made an effort to tune out such stuff and look at the facts and come to informed opinions and beliefs.[/QUOTE]
Ok, so it's just a coincidence that you believe, for example, that the current school system is fantastic and basically perfect? You independently came up with the same system that already exists?

I think it's much more likely that you believe in it because it already exists and you went through it...or in other words, you were raised by it. Anyone paying enough attention will recognize that as the same reason most people believe in a given religion.

I'm not saying (in this post, anyway) anything about how good or bad the current system is, so there's no need to go into that again, but my point is that many of your beliefs have been shaped by a process that is very similar to the one that shapes the beliefs of most conservatives. You grew up within a belief system that you now regard as fantastic. It's much easier for you to recognize this in, for example, religious conservatives, than it is for you to recognize it in yourself.
 
I never said it was perfect, I think lots of things need changed from standardized tests, to more individualized teaching, different styles of lectures etc.

And yes I guess people are always shaped to some degree by their experience and the world etc. Note that I said I never had anything I could think of where my opinion/believe was TOTALLY shaped by religion, politics and other ideologies.

Most everyone is influenced by such things, too many adopt stances totally because of such things without considering the practicality of stances and what not.

But I think I'm just going to permanently agree to disagree with you and not bother debating things with you. We're both assholes with big egos that generally have to have the last word on things so it's just a recipe for endless frustration. :D

And one of my New Year's resolution was to spend less time on forums arguing about pointless shit, and I've done a shitty job of that the past 2 weeks!
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']
And one of my New Year's resolution was to spend less time on forums arguing about pointless shit, and I've done a shitty job of that the past 2 weeks![/quote]
The only thing you do more than argue about pointless shit is talk about how pointless shit is.
 
[quote name='depascal22']I don't think the expenses would matter to teenagers. Anything you tell them won't be considered anyway.

You guys seem to forget that teenagers fuck everything up. They make horrible decisions because they believe they know everything. They really know nothing but who the hell can tell them that?

So there's only two solutions to this problem. Educate the kids and offer condoms. Or you can pull all welfare benefits and allow these families to starve. It's survival of the fittest after all. It's also a hell of alot cheaper than lacing drinking water with libido killing or sterilizing chemicals.[/quote]

How about mandatory care of a set of colicky babies?

Stick the teenager ready to have kids in a home with a newborn baby with a good case of colic.

A few sleepless weeks could break down any knowitall and make him or her open to new learning.

I'm sure somebody thinks the teenager will just kill baby. Rotate in a fresh boxer every few hours.

As the teenagers learning how to parent show up at school haggard and lumpy, it might start sinking in.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']How about mandatory care of a set of colicky babies?

Stick the teenager ready to have kids in a home with a newborn baby with a good case of colic.

A few sleepless weeks could break down any knowitall and make him or her open to new learning.

I'm sure somebody thinks the teenager will just kill baby. Rotate in a fresh boxer every few hours.

As the teenagers learning how to parent show up at school haggard and lumpy, it might start sinking in.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, let's throw in a mortgage and a few car payments too. That'll REALLY break em. They'll never want to leave home. On second thought, I think our plan sucks.
 
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