Bush Administration proposes new law to protect Anti-Abortion Doctors

[quote name='HotShotX']If passed, it basically says a doctor can refuse to perform an abortion on moral grounds.

Anyone else sense a direct violation of the hippocratic oath? I understand a pregnancy is not a life-threatening illness, but neither is a broken arm, and doctors are still bound to supply care for that.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/08/21/abortion.doctors.ap/index.html

~HotShotX[/quote]

Apples and oranges.

A broken arm is an emergency that has to be fixed in a day or two.

An abortion is an inconvenience that can be "resolved" within a few months.

I don't think abortions should be illegal, but I don't think a doctor should perform a procedure he or she has moral qualms about. Of course, a hospital or clinic doesn't need to retain the services of a doctor with qualms about certain procedures.
 
I'm very, very pro-choice (hell, I'm borderline pro-abortion) and even I support this. I file it under protection of religious beliefs (and I'm agnostic).

I think people who believe abortion is wrong because the church tells them it is are idiots, but those idiots are entitled to their religious freedom. An abortion is not life threatening: if a religious doctor doesn't want to do it, find a doctor who will. Protecting the religious freedom of the doctor is worth the inconvenience imposed on the pregnant chick, IMO.
 
I'm not sure about this, but pharmacists that refuse to fill prescriptions for birth control piss me off. If they don't want to dispense any type of medication, they shouldn't be pharmacists.
 
[quote name='JolietJake']If they don't want to dispense any type of medication, they shouldn't be pharmacists.[/QUOTE]

I think beliefs should be protected though.. if I were a painter and some dbag asked me to cover his house in swastikas I'd like to be able to say no. Not the best analogy but still.
 
don't we have more important things out there to worry about than this. I mean Bush is a lame duck, does he really need to appeal to his base with this little time in office left. I have no problem if there are other doctor willing to do the procedure. But say you are the only doctor in your area, then you should not be able to pass the buck.
 
This is not the only legislation that Bush is pushing forth..I believe he wants to ban contraceptives at government funded clinics. Its a bit of news that you wont find in the front page but it is slowly creeping in under the radar.

I doubt he will be able to pass legislation in California though. He's a lame duck..
 
Not a big deal, it already happens. Catholic hospitals refuse to do abortions and even refuse to give out contraception based on moral grounds. In some OB/GYN residencies, training in performing abortions is optional.
 
So does he really believe this shit then?

I thought he was just pandering to the religious right.

Every time I think he can't get any dumber...
 
Well, since I think a fetus is a living creature, the hippocratic oath would be *supported* by not killing unborn babies.
I think an OB should be trained in it, because even if we get rid of retroactive birth control abortion (I'm sorry, "choice"), there could still be the life-endangering pregnancies that would better justify an abortion. Aren't there hundreds of planned parenthood locations that provide abortions?
Oh this is funny: I went to pp.org to see how many locations they have... Big old headline. "Help Keep Politics Out of the Exam Room!" Why start now? They're all about politics in the exam room.
It's not like there's a monopoly on doctors, the hospital could decide to hire/fire based on what they require their contractors to do, and there are still plenty of doctors who will kill fetuses.

Refusing to give out contraception or proactive birth control, I'm definitely much less supportive of that. To me that would be like not giving out water, just dealing with dehydration when it occurs (silly example but I hope it gets my point across.) I would think people who are very pro-life would be supportive of most contraception. Using a condom or a BCP is much better than a bunch of unwanted babies to be adopted, aborted, or "punish"ing the mother (B. Obama, 2008.)
 
[quote name='62t']IF a doctor is anti abortion why would he or she become an abortion doctor in the first place?[/QUOTE]

you dont train to be an 'abortion doctor'...

[quote name='Heavy Hitter']Obama will have no comment as this sort of thing is above his pay grade.[/QUOTE]

i lol'd

I don't expect to change any minds but...

I used to be very liberal when it came to abortion (re pro choice) until I read a book that had a chapter on abortion, marriage & family etc and talked about how far numbers have dropped as far as marriages go, the decline in family and "traditional values and the decline in population growth over the last 40 years while things like crime, abortion, divorce & single parent households have sky rocketed.

Quite frankly I find the numbers disgusting having read them and reading about the development stages of the fetus. over 40 million abortions since it become legal, that's about 3,000 a day (average it's higher today), and rising. Less than 10% of abortions are because of rape/incest or medical reasons. 50% of facilities that perform abortions do so after the 12th week of pregnancy.

This is how most 1st Trimester abortions are performed.

Suction-aspiration: In this method, the abortionist must first paralyze the cervical muscle ring (womb opening) and then stretch it open. This is difficult because it is hard or "green" and not ready to open. He then inserts a hollow plastic tube, which has a knife-like edge on the tip, into the uterus. The suction tears the baby’s body into pieces. He then cuts the deeply rooted placenta from the inner wall of the uterus. The scraps are sucked out into a bottle. The suction is 29 times more powerful than a home vacuum cleaner.​


This is a common way an abortion is performed during the 2nd trimester

A pliers-like instrument is used because the baby’s bones are calcified, as is the skull. There is no anesthetic for the baby. The abortionist inserts the instrument up into the uterus, seizes a leg or other part of the body, and, with a twisting motion, tears it from the baby’s body. This is repeated again and again. The spine must be snapped, and the skull crushed to remove them. The nurse’s job is to reassemble the body parts to be sure that all are removed. ​

Another way if there are multiple fetuses is...

At about 4 months a needle is inserted through the mother’s abdomen, into the chest and heart of one of the fetal babies and a poison injected to kill him or her. This is "pregnancy reduction." It is done to reduce the number or to kill a handicapped baby, if such is identified. If successful, the dead baby’s body is absorbed.​

This is how 3rd Trimester or Partial Birth Abortions are performed.

(Keep in mind at this point the majority of children would live outside the mother)

This is like a breech delivery. The entire infant is delivered except the head. A scissors is jammed into the base of the skull. A tube is inserted into the skull, and the brain is sucked out. The now-dead infant is pulled out. ​

After reading about those and then reading about how the fetus develops... Well I've changed my mind on the whole thing. I think contraceptives are great, I think RU-486 is good for "micro-abortions", and for the most part I think an abortion, if done very early (before the 2nd trimester generally speaking), is acceptable. For the record 90% +- 3% (;)) of abortions are performed before the 2nd trimester. Of course rape/incest and medical reasons are an exception, but again that's going to be less than 10% of abortions performed. Anyway, here are the stages of development of the fetus so you can see how disgusting an abortion actually is.


Stages of Fetal Development

1st Trimester

1st and 2nd The first two weeks represent the period before you actually get pregnant; sperm fertilizes the egg
3rd Fertilized egg implants in uterus
4th Placenta starts forming
5th Development of the primitive streak
6th Heart starts to beat, aorta, eyes, liver, gall bladder, lungs, pancreas, arm buds, stomach, intestines start forming
7th Eye lenses, jaws and tongue start developing; arms and legs develop into paddles
8th Development of the cerebellum, hand and foot plates, wrist and elbow areas, eye pigments, teeth buds, windpipe, and voice box takes place
9th Cartilage, bones, sex organs, fingers and thumb start taking shape
10th Ear lobes, upper lips, toes, palate, taste buds acquire a shape
11th Body starts straightening; sex organs form, muscle structure starts varying
12th Gall bladder, pancreas get fully developed; brain takes complete shape; finger nails start developing
13th Vocal chords forms; intestines move to abdomen and form folds
14th Breathing, sucking, swallowing motions practiced; hands become more functional

2nd Trimester

15th Neck forms; hair pattern defined
16th Toe nails grow; head, neck grow straighter
17th Reflexes like blinking, swallowing, sucking develop; all structures develop further
18th Finger prints develop; fecal waste develops
19th Primitive egg cells in baby girl develop
20th Scalp hair, eyebrows begin developing
21st Muscle and bones get stronger
22nd Hair, eyebrows now visible
23rd Middle ear bone hardens
24th Heart beat gets stronger
25th Capillaries develop; nostrils open
26th Muscular breathing starts, air sacks develop

3rd Trimester

27th Development of brain patterns
28th Eyelids open
29th Senses develop, eyes move
30th Body stores nutrients
31st Internal organs mature
32nd Iris reacts to light
33rd Baby may suck fingers
34th Immune system starts developing
35th Descent of testes complete in male child
36th Dimples on elbows, knees, neck
37th End of development
38th Waste accumulates in intestines
39th Baby settles in pelvis
40th Be ready to welcome your newborn​

/rant
 
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I need look no further than this thread to realize the Republican Party has been taken over by its parasitic neo-con (or statist, I guess you could say) elements. This is government control of the economy plain and simple.

For all you bible-thumpers, and the easily influenced (Woah, I just read Fight Club - BRB destroying all my consumer goods), I heard bleach tastes quite good. Try it and see. (god called me and he totally agrees with me.)
 
[quote name='dtcarson']Well, since I think a fetus is a living creature, the hippocratic oath would be *supported* by not killing unborn babies.[/quote]

Bingo.

[quote name='RAMSTORIA']I don't expect to change any minds but...

I used to be very liberal when it came to abortion (re pro choice) until I read a book that had a chapter on abortion, marriage & family etc and talked about how far numbers have dropped as far as marriages go, the decline in family and "traditional values and the decline in population growth over the last 40 years while things like crime, abortion, divorce & single parent households have sky rocketed. [/QUOTE]

Even simpler than reading about how abortion is killing a living child, all you need do is look at the pictures of children murdered and horrifically mutilated through abortion to realize it is something truly despicable.
 
[quote name='DarkSageRK']

For all you bible-thumpers, and the easily influenced (Woah, I just read Fight Club - BRB destroying all my consumer goods), I heard bleach tastes quite good. Try it and see. (god called me and he totally agrees with me.)[/QUOTE]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I'm not a bible thumper, I haven't been to church in years. I didn't read that information in a work of fiction, the stages of the fetus and how abortions are done didn't come from 5,000 year old men, the number of abortions done every day isn't something I learned from someone at a pulpit. Those are hard numbers and scientific fact.
 
I wasn't necessarily calling you a religious zealot. I may have been implying, however, that you're a thoughtless twat. You know, the kind of person who watches a PETA video and becomes a vegan. A blind supporter of whichever ideology shoves its propaganda down your throat the furthest. Don't get me wrong, I think you're a great guy. And people like you are what help keep our country great. I mean, where would we be without the mindless masses? We wouldn't have anyone to sell things like DVD rewinders to, and that would be a damn shame.
 
[quote name='DarkSageRK']I wasn't necessarily calling you a religious zealot. I may have been implying, however, that you're a thoughtless twat. You know, the kind of person who watches a PETA video and becomes a vegan. A blind supporter of whichever ideology shoves its propaganda down your throat the furthest. Don't get me wrong, I think you're a great guy. And people like you are what help keep our country great. I mean, where would we be without the mindless masses? We wouldn't have anyone to sell things like DVD rewinders to, and that would be a damn shame.[/QUOTE]

Maybe instead of throwing out thought provoking insults you can maybe argue your side of the issue.
 
*The government should stay the fuck out of the economy.
*This is thinly-veiled pandering to pro-life Christians in a deliberate gesture to demonstrate that church and state are not separate.
*There's more important shit going down than doctors not being allowed to slack off at their jobs. All this amounts to is a nice little distraction by an unpopular government.
 
[quote name='RAMSTORIA']For the record over 80% of abortions are performed before the 2nd trimester.[/quote]

That over 80% is actually about 95%. 60% of which are within the first 8 weeks (at the end of which the fetus is a little more than half an inch long) and 90% during the first 12 weeks (when the fetus is about 2 inches long) so I think your graphic, emotionally-loaded descriptions are just a bit over the top.

If you think life is life then whatever, but you don't have to spin it to try to make a case.

EDIT: And as for the OP, it's a somewhat difficult case. Performing abortions is a bit more involving than simply filling a prescription, so I don't think anyone should be forced to do it. On the other hand, if there is only one doctor in an area qualified to do it, and they refuse, it could present a pretty serious problem for women who want/need an abortion. I think generally I'd say that doctors shouldn't have to perform any procedures they don't want to unless there's risk to someone's health.
 
[quote name='SpazX']That over 80% is actually about 95%. [/QUOTE]

87% ;)

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5511a1.htm

I know I know, it was very ranty of me. I was just in the zone, ya know.

[quote name='DarkSageRK']*The government should stay the fuck out of the economy. [/quote]

I agree. What does this have to do with abortion?

*This is thinly-veiled pandering to pro-life Christians in a deliberate gesture to demonstrate that church and state are not separate.
Click to expand...

What part of the medical profession falls under 'state'? The fact that the the government has to step in to protect doctors is a little absurd.

*There's more important shit going down than doctors not being allowed to slack off at their jobs. All this amounts to is a nice little distraction by an unpopular government.
Click to expand...

Yes there are many more important issues, but how is that an argument for abortion?
 
I specifically left abortion out because I'm not arguing for abortion (though I wholeheartedly support it). I'm arguing against this proposal. If you are still unable to understand my post, I'll gladly explain it to you, but please look at it in the context of a response to the proposal itself.
 
[quote name='RAMSTORIA']87% ;)

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5511a1.htm

I know I know, it was very ranty of me. I was just in the zone, ya know.[/quote]

That's the first 12 weeks, the first trimester is the first 14 weeks :p. I'm probably a little off since it groups 13-15 together so let's just say that somewhere on the high end of 87.6-93.9% of abortions are done within the first trimester ;).
 
Fair enough spaz.

[quote name='DarkSageRK']I specifically left abortion out because I'm not arguing for abortion (though I wholeheartedly support it). I'm arguing against this proposal. If you are still unable to understand my post, I'll gladly explain it to you, but please look at it in the context of a response to the proposal itself.[/QUOTE]

I read your post. I asked you to explain your opinion on abortion after you called me among other things; "thoughtless twat", "blind supporter" and "mindless".
 
You want to me to explain my opinion on abortion rather than on this proposal? Ok...well, there's not much for me to say about it. I support a person's right to choose what the hell they do with their body. In this case, the fetus is part of the woman's body, and I could care less if she reached up into her body, ripped it out, and ate it.

Mind defending why this proposal is so amazing without using moral indignation at abortion as your basis? That IS what this thread is about, after all.
 
[quote name='DarkSageRK']

Mind defending why this proposal is so amazing without using moral indignation at abortion as your basis? That IS what this thread is about, after all.[/QUOTE]


So you want me to defend the proposal without using the basis for it. There's nothing wrong with using moral indignation in the proposal. The bill is to protect people's jobs. If you become a doctor or a nurse, you shouldn't be obligated to perform procedures that conflict with your beliefs.
 
Is there anyone here who seriously supports this kind of government interference, whatever your views on abortion may be?
 
Whats the big deal? If the law is just protecting those doctors who wish not to abort a baby there is nothing wrong with that. There are plenty others out there who will gladly perform the abortion and collect the money for doing so.

In fact, forcing someone who doesnt believe in abortions to do it would be the messed up thing. And this is from someone who thinks the world would be better if there were MORE abortions.
 
[quote name='RAMSTORIA']The bill is to protect people's jobs. If you become a doctor or a nurse, you shouldn't be obligated to perform procedures that conflict with your beliefs.[/quote]

Then Burger King employees should be protected by not being obligated to serve burgers if they're vegetarians and don't believe in people eating meat. And science teachers should not be obligated to teach evolution, that the Earth revolves around the sun, or the periodic table of the elements if they don't believe in it. This is bullshit no matter which way you look at it.

It's part of the job description. If you take a job as a doctor, there's going to be some shit you don't want to do, but have to. It's like every other job in the world. Have some moral problems with it? Don't be a doctor. It's that simple.
 
[quote name='rickonker']Is there anyone here who seriously supports this kind of government interference, whatever your views on abortion may be?[/QUOTE]

Yes. Those people would be the "small government" Republicans.

:rofl:

On topic, I don't like this, but it has a nice indirect effect. Now you KNOW who the doctors who are anti abortion are. They'll simply refuse to treat you. Good, you didn't want to go to them anyway.

Imagine the potential problems that would happen from a doctor who disagrees with abortion but is forced to perform on you!

EDIT: I agree with DarkSage's "do your fucking job or get another one, you wimp!" rationale. Do your job or get another one, simply. Why are the Defenders of Adam Smith's Legacy of Capitalist Theory so quick to defend the worker in this case?

As for all this abortion is gross-looking talk, let's get back on the level: if you people are allowed to parade around the emotive-grasping "dead babies aren't cute therefore it's murder" talk, then let's get some more photos into the public arena of just a small portion of the tens of thousands of innocent dead Iraqis. Let's have vivid, adjective-wrought descriptions of what happens from the moment a bullet is fired to the moment a person's senses stop working altogether. What happens when their heart stops beating. Let's talk about ALL that is wrong in the world, and not ignore-via-yellow-ribbon-support the murder of one group of people we're distant from and don't care about, and then act pious about those we want to protect.

And let's be clear about those you want to protect: the fetus. Not people; cuz once they're born, you couldn't give a fuck. You bitch about their parents in Reaganesque mythologies about "welfare mothers," decry their lack of a two-parent household as if it's the child's fault (which it could be, in a way), bitch about the money that goes to WIC, TANF, and other funds (if you want your household contribution back, it's about $70/year; hope that's worth the increase in crime that would necessarily result from abandoning aid).

So, again, fuck your piousness. Y'all just have a fetus fetish. You don't give a fuck about humans. You don't give a fuck about life. So cut it out, will ya?
 
[quote name='RAMSTORIA']This is how most 1st Trimester abortions are performed.
Suction-aspiration: In this method, the abortionist must first paralyze the cervical muscle ring (womb opening) and then stretch it open. This is difficult because it is hard or "green" and not ready to open. He then inserts a hollow plastic tube, which has a knife-like edge on the tip, into the uterus. The suction tears the baby’s body into pieces. He then cuts the deeply rooted placenta from the inner wall of the uterus. The scraps are sucked out into a bottle. The suction is 29 times more powerful than a home vacuum cleaner.
...[/quote]
​
Awwww guys.

I just found out how totally yucky organ transplants are!

They use knives on your body and put an organ in there that belongs to someone else and should be buried with him - so you know our Christian God didn't approve!

Blood is, like, going everywhere and stuff and puss and infections can happen!

We need to stop this yucky stuff immediately!
 
[quote name='elprincipe']Even simpler than reading about how abortion is killing a living child, all you need do is look at the pictures of children murdered and horrifically mutilated through abortion to realize it is something truly despicable.[/quote]

All I have seen are dead fetusii.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Yes. Those people would be the "small government" Republicans.

:rofl:

On topic, I don't like this, but it has a nice indirect effect. Now you KNOW who the doctors who are anti abortion are. They'll simply refuse to treat you. Good, you didn't want to go to them anyway.

Imagine the potential problems that would happen from a doctor who disagrees with abortion but is forced to perform on you!

EDIT: I agree with DarkSage's "do your fucking job or get another one, you wimp!" rationale. Do your job or get another one, simply. Why are the Defenders of Adam Smith's Legacy of Capitalist Theory so quick to defend the worker in this case?

As for all this abortion is gross-looking talk, let's get back on the level: if you people are allowed to parade around the emotive-grasping "dead babies aren't cute therefore it's murder" talk, then let's get some more photos into the public arena of just a small portion of the tens of thousands of innocent dead Iraqis. Let's have vivid, adjective-wrought descriptions of what happens from the moment a bullet is fired to the moment a person's senses stop working altogether. What happens when their heart stops beating. Let's talk about ALL that is wrong in the world, and not ignore-via-yellow-ribbon-support the murder of one group of people we're distant from and don't care about, and then act pious about those we want to protect.

And let's be clear about those you want to protect: the fetus. Not people; cuz once they're born, you couldn't give a fuck. You bitch about their parents in Reaganesque mythologies about "welfare mothers," decry their lack of a two-parent household as if it's the child's fault (which it could be, in a way), bitch about the money that goes to WIC, TANF, and other funds (if you want your household contribution back, it's about $70/year; hope that's worth the increase in crime that would necessarily result from abandoning aid).

So, again, fuck your piousness. Y'all just have a fetus fetish. You don't give a fuck about humans. You don't give a fuck about life. So cut it out, will ya?[/QUOTE]

mykevermin, you've addressed the typical Republican hypocrites (were there any in this thread?), but what about actual capitalists who don't like wars? They wouldn't support this either.
 
[quote name='elprincipe']Bingo.



Even simpler than reading about how abortion is killing a living child, all you need do is look at the pictures of children murdered and horrifically mutilated through abortion to realize it is something truly despicable.[/QUOTE]


can we apply the same visual gross out test to firearms? Heck, I'd even limit it to just accidents.
 
[quote name='Heavy Hitter']I was wondering when someone would play the "dead Iraqi" card. Didn't take long.[/QUOTE]

Oh, a life's not a life, I take it?
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Oh, a life's not a life, I take it?[/quote]

Not when it is a damn dirty ape ... I mean German ... I mean Japanese ... I mean Iraqi ... I mean Russian.
 
[quote name='RAMSTORIA']

This is how 3rd Trimester or Partial Birth Abortions are performed.

(Keep in mind at this point the majority of children would live outside the mother)

This is like a breech delivery. The entire infant is delivered except the head. A scissors is jammed into the base of the skull. A tube is inserted into the skull, and the brain is sucked out. The now-dead infant is pulled out. ​
[/QUOTE]

Having recently become a father and knowing the joys of having a baby, reading this part broke my heart. The doctors and nurses who do this type of work must be very desensitized by the whole process. I'd lose my mind if this was my job.

On topic: I think the core of the problem lies here...
The rule, which applies to institutions receiving government money, would require as many as 584,000 employers ranging from major hospitals to doctors' offices and nursing homes to certify in writing that they are complying with several federal laws that protect the conscience rights of health care workers. Violations could lead to a loss of government funding and legal action to recoup federal money already paid.
Click to expand...

The government is getting involved because they are partially funding the work being done. As such, they feel have a right to "meddle". Do I agree with their stance...not really. Hell, I disagree with how government spends money and does things in general. I think doctors and nurses should be protected from legal ramifications if they refuse to perform an abortion. I don't think their jobs should be protected if they refuse to perform a job function that they fully knew they may be called on to perform when they accepted employment with an institution. Part of their terms of employment should specifically spell out whether they will be required to perform abortions (or not) and they can make their employment decision based on that. As a result they would not be "forced" to do anything that runs contrary to their morals or belief system.
 
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[quote name='camoor'][/INDENT]Awwww guys.

I just found out how totally yucky organ transplants are!

They use knives on your body and put an organ in there that belongs to someone else and should be buried with him - so you know our Christian God didn't approve!

Blood is, like, going everywhere and stuff and puss and infections can happen!

We need to stop this yucky stuff immediately![/QUOTE]

:roll:

[quote name='mykevermin']
So, again, fuck your piousness. Y'all just have a fetus fetish. You don't give a fuck about humans. You don't give a fuck about life. So cut it out, will ya?[/QUOTE]

C'mon now. That's a pretty big assumption for just talking about how revolting abortion is. If you read my entire I post I go on to say that I support contraceptives, the morning after pill and even abortions in the first trimester (the legality of it at least).

I'm not sure how you equate anti-abortion with being anti civilian death or anti-welfare, or how you could assume that someone who is anti-abortion doesn't give a damn about a child's welfare outside of the womb. (I'm not trying to say there aren't those people out there, but you can't just jump to that conclusion, well at least without sounding like an ass).

Look, a doctor shouldn't be forced to perform an abortion and they shouldn't have to worry about their job security for their refusal to do so. As I said earlier, doctors don't train to be "abortion doctors". We shouldn't even need a law like this, refusal to perform an abortion should be protected under the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

[quote name='mzbagel']Having recently become a father and knowing the joys of having a baby, reading this part broke my heart. The doctors and nurses who do this type of work must be very desensitized by the whole process. I'd lose my mind if this was my job.[/QUOTE]

Quite disgusting, but only about 2% of abortions are performed this way, however that's still roughly 20,000 a year in the US alone.
 
[quote name='RAMSTORIA']refusal to perform an abortion should be protected under the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
[/quote]

:whistle2:s

:whistle2:k

:whistle2:?

#-o
 
[quote name='Heavy Hitter']That's not at all what I said - but nice try.[/QUOTE]

So, tell me, then, what are you saying?

Either there's an underlying argument to your statement, or we take it at face value for what it literally says - which, at that point, it doesn't contribute much to the discussion at hand. It's akin to standing near an interstate and pointing at a car and saying "Hey, look! A car!"

So either tell us what your underlying message is (or, rather, continue to deny anything suggested by it until such time that you can decide which underlying message you'd like to use or agree with ;)), or admit your post is the equivalent of a toddler's awareness of the world.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']So, tell me, then, what are you saying?

Either there's an underlying argument to your statement, or we take it at face value for what it literally says - which, at that point, it doesn't contribute much to the discussion at hand. It's akin to standing near an interstate and pointing at a car and saying "Hey, look! A car!"

So either tell us what your underlying message is (or, rather, continue to deny anything suggested by it until such time that you can decide which underlying message you'd like to use or agree with ;)), or admit your post is the equivalent of a toddler's awareness of the world.[/QUOTE]
Hey, aren't you the guy who brought Iraq into this? :D
 
[quote name='DarkSageRK']:whistle2:s

:whistle2:k

:whistle2:?

#-o[/QUOTE]

Cute, but it's not a rebuttal. Maybe you should read Title VII of the Civil Rights Act.
 
[quote name='mzbagel']Having recently become a father and knowing the joys of having a baby, reading this part broke my heart. The doctors and nurses who do this type of work must be very desensitized by the whole process. I'd lose my mind if this was my job.[/QUOTE]

Last I checked much of the time when the procedure is performed after the usual time frame it is for medical reasons such as extreme hydrocephalus.

On topic: I think the core of the problem lies here
Click to expand...

I believe the the problem is that a group of politicians are attempting to legislate against a doctors judgment (without even using a name that is accepted by doctors, instead using one crafted for political purposes) when for the most part those politicizing it really have no idea what they are talking about.
 
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