CAGcast #132: Mediocrely Average

Little did you realize Cheapy that you had invited the president of his schools math club to podcast with you.
 
Wombat - average isn't just another way of saying "arithmetic mean", it's an adjective too!

average
adjective
typical and usual:
The food was fairly average (= not excellent, although not bad).
Click to expand...


mediocre
adjective DISAPPROVING
not very good:
The film's plot is predictable and the acting is mediocre.
Click to expand...


Personally I think in this case average is a better fit, since it's in the middle of the scale. A lot of people seem to define mediocre as below average.
 
[quote name='seakae']I realize what you're trying to say Wombat, but I think you're being a little too fascistic about the use of the word. I'm the same way, on occasion. Like the use of the word, "epic."

Your chocolate milk is not epic, child. It may taste delicious. It may even be excellent in its deliciousness, but that shit is not epic. Shut. The fuck. Up.[/quote]


That's just awesome!
 
Hey Cheapy and Wombat, you guys are both badasses. $100 for a phone call is the best deal I've ever gotten. Thanks a lot guys. Any suggestions from you two on what I should get? I might pick up NHL 09 when I see it used and I can get it for 35% off to play with ya Cheapy. Even when it's free to me, I'm still a cheapass.
 
I'm going to have to agree with Wombat on the average vs. mediocre argument. The two words do not have the same meaning. What I assume most people associate "average" with is from school grades where grades of 70-79% are considered "C" grades, most often considered by teachers and students as average. 70-79% ratings for games are also associated with the word "average" because of this.

Wombat had a very nice idea of how average should work. However instead of using the average from all of the games that released this year (2008), the average should come from the previous year to avoid constant change from games that are comming out almost every day.

I don't feel that either Cheapy or Wombat is wrong, being that everyone has their own definition. But while a 70-79% may be the average for school grades, the ratio may in fact be lower or higher for other types of grading systems such as the one used for the video-game industry.
 
I'd like to see more focus on gaming than what was presented in this episode. The political commentary was unnecessary. Everyone is bombarded with that topic and we don't need yet another opinion about it. Tell us about your recent gaming exploits. In the past Cheapy has said that he's a fan of the first Mercenaries game. The sequel has been released and very little time was spent discussing the game.

Hell, if nothing is going on in the gaming world you can at least make fun of Wombat.
 
[quote name='John']Wombat - average isn't just another way of saying "arithmetic mean", it's an adjective too!

average
adjective
typical and usual:



mediocre
adjective DISAPPROVING
not very good:



Personally I think in this case average is a better fit, since it's in the middle of the scale. A lot of people seem to define mediocre as below average.[/QUOTE]

my problem is, is thats a terrible way to describe a game, what does a potential consumer get from someone calling a game average? Do you recommend it or not? average doesn't say anything. I think Okay is a better word then average, there are days when I feel Okay, there are no days when I feel average.
 
[quote name='Wombat']my problem is, is thats a terrible way to describe a game, what does a potential consumer get from someone calling a game average? Do you recommend it or not? average doesn't say anything. I think Okay is a better word then average, there are days when I feel Okay, there are no days when I feel average.[/quote]

I totally agree with you Wombat. When you say something is average you're saying the game plays fine but it doesn't do much to differentiate it self from the rest of the pack. Mediocre says this game is below what the game should be.
 
I think Wombat had an edge to him in the show with Shipwreck, and he just continued that onto this show -- I liked it -- way to go Wombat!

But, I don't understand why you guys didn't address the issue regarding Amazon dropping its 30 day price protection -- there are a number of CAGs who think that's a significant item to discuss.
 
Wow, I am surprised by Wombat's mathematical skills. This got me thinking of a mathematical equasion of my own.

Wombat + arguing medicore over average to Cheapy = DEUCH

I get what you are saying Wombat, but come on average has been used in video game ratings since I can recall. I have also always used average as a guideline for crap. To me, 75% is average or a solid "C" in school not great, not the worse and still passing. I agree that the rating system for games is broken, but every review can be broken down into a percentage. If everything is calculated and the game is in the 70% range than its an "average" game. There is no way to get a unified scoring system for games. I also understand that the other way I am using "average" in this is to find the average of the game. But like others pointed out, there are two uses for it with two different meanings. So Wombat, since you are so anal about using word correctley, I want you to walk around New York and tell everyone how gay you feel and how you love being gay, after all it does mean happy!!

Also, if EA really wanted to compete with Gamestop, they should offer games $10 cheaper on the PSN. Think about it, Gamestop's used games you only save $2.00 - $5.00 on the newer titles. If EA launched Burnout on the PSN for $19.99 and Gamestop sells it USED for $26.99 it would be a way to take away from the USED sales. Doubt it would happen, but if they really wanted to put there foot down, it may be a smart step. Also, of topic but can Warhawk or any of these other full games be file shared?
 
[quote name='Wombat']my problem is, is thats a terrible way to describe a game, what does a potential consumer get from someone calling a game average? Do you recommend it or not? average doesn't say anything. I think Okay is a better word then average, there are days when I feel Okay, there are no days when I feel average.[/quote]


But the fact remains that average is a common word used to describe middle-of-the-road games, and most people have a good idea of what they think an average game is. From the podcast it sounded like you were saying that using it was wrong, but if it's just a matter of preference we probably shouldn't lose any sleep over it. ;)
 
[quote name='Davestation']Wow, I am surprised by Wombat's mathematical skills. This got me thinking of a mathematical equasion of my own.

Wombat + arguing medicore over average to Cheapy = DEUCH

I get what you are saying Wombat, but come on average has been used in video game ratings since I can recall. I have also always used average as a guideline for crap. To me, 75% is average or a solid "C" in school not great, not the worse and still passing. I agree that the rating system for games is broken, but every review can be broken down into a percentage. If everything is calculated and the game is in the 70% range than its an "average" game. There is no way to get a unified scoring system for games. I also understand that the other way I am using "average" in this is to find the average of the game. But like others pointed out, there are two uses for it with two different meanings. So Wombat, since you are so anal about using word correctley, I want you to walk around New York and tell everyone how gay you feel and how you love being gay, after all it does mean happy!!
[/QUOTE]

I am only so gay because of posts like yours
 
[quote name='4nik8tor']cheap = buy it cheap
ass = crap, shit, ass. - at the very most, a rental
gamer = buy it! there is enough content in this game that will keep you playing for a month.

problem solved.[/QUOTE]

I like this approach.

This thread is ass. :D
 
"Fair" might be the way to go...
Currently kicking around: Outstanding, Very Good, Fair, Poor, Awful
 
average is a copout.. you say a game is average when the game truly is mediocre..but you wanted it to succeed.. you then say it is average.
 
Why not relate the subjective score to the percentage of the full price you would be willing to pay....

5 Stars: Excellent: (Full Price)
4 Stars: Good (25% off)
3 Stars: Okay (50% off)
2 Stars: Meh (75% off)
1 Star: Poor (couldn't make me take it even if it was free)

Just a thought...
 
Hey Cheapy,
help me understand the need for game reviews on CAG.
I really don't get it. CAG has never been known as a review site. (to me anyhow) If I want a review of a game I go to other sites.
I come here for deals on current games on old games I missed out on.
Not reviews.
I already know what I'm interested in before I come here.
but thats just me, and maybe you want to change things up. Thats cool.
I just don't get the need for game reviews. (or in this case a scoring system)
Mr. and Mrs. Ship do just fine getting the message across about which games might interest me and which ones to avoid without any numerical system attached to it.
I mean.. if you're just gonna review all the AAA titles that come out, then slap an outstanding on them all and be done with it.
A true scoring system (if thats what you're gonna stick with) will involve ALL games, even the crap ones.. otherwise you're just reviewing the games that are above average to begin with. Is that the plan?

don't get me wrong, I don't wanna bag on your idea. but I'm ok with how it is now.
 
[quote name='CheapyD']"Fair" might be the way to go...
Currently kicking around: Outstanding, Very Good, Wombat, Poor, Awful[/quote]
I prefer this scale.
 
[quote name='Wombat']I am only so gay because of posts like yours[/quote]

Thanks Wombat, I just lay in bed all night thinking how gay I am. I am married to my wife and have never been gayer. I can not wait to wake up to my very own gay world and see what I can do to make it gayer. I am most gay when my wife is out of the house and I am listening to the CAGcast nude in my very, very, very gay state of mind. When I hear yours and Cheapy's voices I just get all filled with gayness!! Thanks for bringing more gayness into my life CAG!! On a side note, a homosexual dog tried humping my leg, what a gay dog....
 
I usually enjoy wombat but in this podcast he came off as a whiny baby. You would have thought that Cheapy had insulted his wife and baby with the from the tone of his voice during the "Great Average Debate of 2008".

As far as gun control, I can understand being uncomfortable with machine gun packing citizen but you have to look at why they put that in the constitution. The founding fathers had just fought to overthrow a tyrannical government and to do this the citizens had to rise up with their own arms to do this. The 2nd amendment isn't about people having guns so they can go hunting and shoot targets, the 2nd amendment was the founding fathers insurance that if the government they were forming ever started to oppress it's people, the people would have the ability to take up arms and overthrow them.
 
Why do people in the industry always call us consumers. I have never, ever in my life consumed a video game. They don't seem very appetizing, being all plastic and metallic.
 
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[quote name='DJSteel']i like the price scoring.. it makes the most sense for the site...[/quote]

I agree, you could have an AVERAGE CAG price. For me I just look at gamerankings.com or metacritic.com to get a score. On CAG I like the idea of assigning a price point baseed on MSRP. In my mind the way it would work is anyone who wants to (outside of the reviewer) could assigin a price point of what they think the game is worth. Then all price points are averaged giving the game a CAG price ex: 100 people say Tales of Vesperia is worth 45.86.
 
Like usual, I agree with Wombat. Average is a bad word to describe things. However, I think "Mediocre" has some bad conotations to it, so I would go with Fair or Par.
 
[quote name='Wombat']I am not wrong, no other major convention shares the money from ticket sales with it's vendors. The game companies do make their money back, its called game sales. See the point of the show its to promote their games, if they feel the money they are spending at E3 doesn't equate to games sales, then need to revise the show so it does. Sharing ticket sale money is asinine. If game game companies are really spending millions imagine how much tickets will cost.[/QUOTE]

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt since you've never actually attended E3 (before it was butchered). Having worked for Sony during the E3 hayday and attended several shows as a guest, I can only imagine the amounts of cash that were dumped into E3 by the various companies. It really was an mpressive sight to behold. That being said...

Name one other convention organizer/organization that also charges several hundred thousand to several million dollars for political lobbying and legal representation.

Name one.

Fact is, no such organization exists. And that, my dear Wombat, is why game companies are opting out of E3 and, in numerous cases, out of the ESA. Why pay someone twice when you can do all of that for yourself for far less money AND on your own terms?

You may not agree with the industry's perspective on E3, lord knows I certainly don't, but that is just the way things are. If the ESA wants to continue being a formidable player in this industry then they need to make drastic changes. If Penny Arcade can draw 60,000 people in one 3-day span then imagine what a revived, open to the public E3 could do? Even at $15 a day, the earnings on ticket sales would be a decent drop in the bucket.

[quote name='Wombat']my problem is, is thats a terrible way to describe a game, what does a potential consumer get from someone calling a game average? Do you recommend it or not? average doesn't say anything. I think Okay is a better word then average, there are days when I feel Okay, there are no days when I feel average.[/QUOTE]

[quote name='CheapyD']"Fair" might be the way to go...
Currently kicking around: Outstanding, Very Good, Fair, Poor, Awful[/QUOTE]

What about Meh? That's a great way of saying "It's Okay" or "Average." It also get the point across that an average game may not be something a CAG would want to spend money on. After all, who's your target audience?
 
I 90% agree with Wombat's assessment to use the word mediocre vs. average. I don't 100% agree because he's using average as a Math term when Cheapy isn't referring to Math when he uses the word.

To me, mediocre holds a more negative connotation than the word average. For example, I'm a huge Megaman fan. If someone asked, "What's your thoughts on Megaman 9?" Then that person answers, "Megaman 9 in an average Megaman game." That would get me excited because, to me, that sounds like a great game. If he were to conversely answer, "Megaman 9 is a mediocre Megaman game." That would upset me.
 
I thought the show was pretty tiresome and while cheapy surely didn't mean for the title to describe the quality of the show (and I'm too lazy to check whether this joke has been used already) it pretty much was spot on. I found some of wombat's arguments to be pretty aggressive (and annoying) and I think Cheapy should have definitely gone a little farther with his points on those. Or just google some easy answers. Hoping next week was better but after a three week break that sucked.
[quote name='gigastormz']

Also, keep your politics out of my VIDEO GAME podcasts please.
[/quote]
YEAH THOSE fucking LIBERALS! fuck I hate this free speech! Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to go fuck my sister and shoot a gun...AT THE SAME TIME
 
Wombat sounded angry this episode maybe it because of the new baby stressing him out or he could be angry because he couldn't go to E3 or Pax this year to have fun. He like ticking time bomb ready to explode on CheapyD Ass :bomb:
 
[quote name='daphatty']I'll give you the benefit of the doubt since you've never actually attended E3 (before it was butchered). Having worked for Sony during the E3 hayday and attended several shows as a guest, I can only imagine the amounts of cash that were dumped into E3 by the various companies. It really was an mpressive sight to behold. That being said...

Name one other convention organizer/organization that also charges several hundred thousand to several million dollars for political lobbying and legal representation.

Name one.

Fact is, no such organization exists. And that, my dear Wombat, is why game companies are opting out of E3 and, in numerous cases, out of the ESA. Why pay someone twice when you can do all of that for yourself for far less money AND on your own terms?

You may not agree with the industry's perspective on E3, lord knows I certainly don't, but that is just the way things are. If the ESA wants to continue being a formidable player in this industry then they need to make drastic changes. If Penny Arcade can draw 60,000 people in one 3-day span then imagine what a revived, open to the public E3 could do? Even at $15 a day, the earnings on ticket sales would be a decent drop in the bucket.

[/QUOTE]

But that my whole point, the game companies are paying for a service, it is up to them if they feel that they are getting their money's worth. If not then by all means take your money elsewhere, but you can't ask for money back , if you feel that service has been provided. E3 is just a part of the service.
E3 is held for companies to promote themselves but if they feel they are spending too much then maybe thier booths should have less neon to counter act the booth fees. And how much does the ESA have to pay for city permits, planning, staff, the center itself, etc.
 
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[quote name='ShinAkumA21']Wombat sounded angry this episode maybe it because of the new baby stressing him out or he could be angry because he couldn't go to E3 or Pax this year to have fun. He like ticking time bomb ready to explode on CheapyD Ass :bomb:[/quote]

This looks like it's been mentioned a few times in the thread... I've gotta say, it'd be pretty damn boring if there was no difference of opinion between Cheapy and Wombat. In all reality it's what makes the podcast interesting in a lot of cases. I don't think wombat is ACTUALLY that angry at all, but it seems he brings up different viewpoints even if he doesn't necessarily strongly believe in them at least for the sake of discussing the different viewpoint.


The alternative could sound something like:
"I agree. Next topic."

:applause:
 
Nobody mentioned the availability of the Edge card by itself through the mail for a mere $2. You don't get the magazine with it, but you save more than enough cash for a budget game or two. Gamestop doesn't seem to promote this option much (it's listed on some of the subscription postcards in their magazine), but this option might be attractive for those that don't care for the magazine.
 
Welcome back Cheapy-san! we missed you man. :D

the whole Dark Knight discussion was GREAT! and Cheapy's Batman impression had me rolling. lol... man, Cheapy and Wombat are the perfect team. it's different when they cohost with other people. i appreciate Shippy joining in but the dynamic is different.

okay, still listening...
 
When talking about used games, did cheapy say that the game developers get a piece of the sale? I thought I heard that, and that is incorrect. The reason why game developers/publishers have no problem in going into a DLC model, is 2 fold. First it will lower cost. No cases, instructions, box art, and discs to pay for. 2nd of all, they don't make a fucking penny on used game sales. If gamestop is selling 1/4 of the games in the market, how many of them are used games that the developers don't get jack shit for. The biggest issue that DLC as the primary means for buying games is going to have, is when a new system launches who is going to sell it. Retailers don't make shit on moving a system, it is made on accessories and selling a ton of games.


As for the E3 giving money back to the developers, I am 100% behind the avg wombat :). The reason E3 was made smaller is because the companies didn't think they were getting the bang for their buck. For instance, lets say sony spent 1mill on creating a set in there booth space, and EA spent 750k. But the media would spend = time covering the stuff in EA's booth as it would sony's. It was the developers/publishers fault for spending that type of money. At the time it was rumored the big 3 console makers were the ones not happy with the current E3. Now the ones bitching about it being too small or other companies and some have pulled out. As far as I know the tokoyo game show and Leipzeig shows don't give money back to the game companies. How the fuck would you break that down anyways. Does every company get an equal share? Well then you piss of the big companies. If you break it down based on size/amount of games shown, then a company who had less games but was very popular would get pissed.


The way the game companies can afford to go back to the old E3 and not lose as much money is for them to sell schwag. Tshirts, hats, faceplates, games, statues of game characters etc...They could even release games at E3 several weeks ahead of time at the show, and not have to lose a cut to retailers. I am not talking about a ton of games, but a couple in total. You could charge for autographs/pictures of game designers. There are a ton of ways they could recoup the cost.


I do agree it makes more sense for the game companies to host private events for the press. They will have the full attention of the media.
 
[quote name='CheapyD']"Fair" might be the way to go...
Currently kicking around: Outstanding, Very Good, Fair, Poor, Awful[/quote]
This is pretty good. Its almost like DDR... Perfect, Great, Good, Poor, and Miss. Something like that.
 
Wombat, buddy .. You've sounded pretty agitated the past few episodes. It doesn't suit you. Not enough sleep with the new baby, I imagine?

You need to take care of yourself - take up Tai Chi or get some aromatic candles, or something. Maybe treat yourself to a mudbath and cucumber mask.
 
Wombat, I think the problem with the whole average vs mediocre is that it's kind of pointless to argue about it so long.

And Wombat, Cheapy's right, they stopped doing E3 because it was too expensive, so they need to do whatever possible to make it cheaper for developers, whatever that might be.

And I agree that E3 should be made public, and if they charge ticket sales that would be a great way to bring it back to it's old glory and to make it public, and to make it so developers don't lose money hands over fist. Have it in a large convention center with part of it being press only and another part that is where the public can go.

Another thing they need to do is move it back to May. There are too many trade shows in July, August and September, With e3, pax, Games Convention, and Comic-con, not to mention TGS In October.

Maybe Las Vegas would be a better place? Or here in Phoenix!!!! :) We have the Cardinals stadium and the Coyotes stadium close by! :)

Or even the new convention center in Downtown phoenix, the old one, U.S Airways Center and Chase Field.

And Cheapy's batman impression was hilarious.

And yes, if Madden wasn't at gamestop it wouldn't hurt sales of the game. However, it would hurt them on their lesser releases such as a Mercenaries, Dead Space or Army of Two. And also, I am pretty sure that's illegal.
 
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So what crawled up Cheapy's butt to make him so damn mean? I know he's usually a prick to wombat but damn, for a guy who came back from vacation, you sure came of very negative and short tempered. Also, I think mediocre is the better term over "average"
 
Wombat, I'm usually with you on most of the info and contributions you make to the show. However, I have to disagree with you on the EA not loosing money if they decided to not use Gamestop as a distributor. Like cheapy said, everyone at the begining will buy new but a few weeks down the road when people start to sell their games even if they didn't sell it new they would then start selling it used. It would definitely hurt EA not to sell it new at gamestop. Cheapy hit it right on the nose, Gamestop being the number 1 video game retailer not having the title would make a huge impact on new game sales. There's a reason they haven't already pulled the plug.

Besides that, I think you do a good job on the show on a consistent basis.

I LOLed on that Dark Knight exchange. Cheapy, that was a very good impersonation. Thanks.
 
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I dunno what kind of crack some of you are smoking, but publishers lose money every time a used game is sold at gamestop. The only issue with dl games is who would carry the next gen consoles if the retailers will not make money on games and accesories.

The reason gamestop moves so much product is that they are everywhere and you can trade in old unplayed games for store credit. I would imagine that most of there customers don't buy from gamestop due to brand loyalty. Publishers are not happy with the used game sales and they have made public comments about and link the used game market to pirating games. It is just a matter of time for games to be do as the standard.

Perfect example of this is the étude that found the majority of college students (in the sizable study) did not know what a cd or cassett tape was. Most of the retail cd chains around me are no longer around. College students today are so mp3s off the web. At ces comcast annonced that this fall they will be testing out 100mbps do speed. It is only amount of time before we can have a lot faster dl speeds at affordable pricing. 10 years ago 56 k was the standard and really slow broadband was just starting up. 10 years from now I would imagine you would be able to to dl a full game in a short time. period. 10 years from now college students most likely won't know what a gametop is.
 
I found it funny that Cheapy and Wombat dismiss those who are obsessed with celebrity culture, while they themselves are "celebrities" in their own right, with their own obsessed fans. Reading this forum, I see plenty of people on here who are genuinely concerned with the middling details of the lives of the CAGCast hosts, to the point that I think they would read supermarket magazines about Cheapy's life. We'll soon have spy pics of Wombat's wife's bump from their second baby, and nude photos of Cheapy on his cruise! Face it, guys, you have become just like Britney Spears!
 
[quote name='orko60']I found it funny that Cheapy and Wombat dismiss those who are obsessed with celebrity culture, while they themselves are "celebrities" in their own right, with their own obsessed fans. Reading this forum, I see plenty of people on here who are genuinely concerned with the middling details of the lives of the CAGCast hosts, to the point that I think they would read supermarket magazines about Cheapy's life. We'll soon have spy pics of Wombat's wife's bump from their second baby, and nude photos of Cheapy on his cruise! Face it, guys, you have become just like Britney Spears![/quote]

they secretly love the limelight. :bouncy:
 
[quote name='orko60']I found it funny that Cheapy and Wombat dismiss those who are obsessed with celebrity culture, while they themselves are "celebrities" in their own right, with their own obsessed fans. Reading this forum, I see plenty of people on here who are genuinely concerned with the middling details of the lives of the CAGCast hosts, to the point that I think they would read supermarket magazines about Cheapy's life. We'll soon have spy pics of Wombat's wife's bump from their second baby, and nude photos of Cheapy on his cruise! Face it, guys, you have become just like Britney Spears![/quote]
Cheapy watches Real World and other reality shows on MTV and VH1, so he doesn't really have any right to criticize what others watch.
 
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