CAGcast #333: So Long and Thanks for all the Fish, Phil

Hey guys,

I have been listening for a couple of weeks now and I am hooked.  Thanks for talking about relevant topics in the gaming mainstream and throwing in tangents to movies, comics and other items that would interest a nerdy gamer like myself.

The dynamic between you three is pretty awesome.  The way you all jokingly try to take each other down in a reminds me of how good friends can strip away the superficiality of the social contract (all those perfunctory pleasantries) and get to the core of who each of you is.  Plainly stated, you all are fun to listen to.

Random thoughts about this show:

I was cheering when you talked about the Wii U.  I love that console, but I need more reasons to turn it on. Please, Nintendo, drop this price so I can have more of my friends buy it.  This should have been out 2 years ago.

Vita thoughts: I might get a Vita when they drop the price (Black Friday?) since the PlayStation Plus game giveaways are so awesome. I can wait on it since my 3DS gets a lot of play.

One last thing...  When do NPD numbers come out.  I really like it when you talk about the numbers.

 
MattZack said:
CheapyD,

On show 332 after comparing gun policy in the US and Japan, you said: "Japan does a few things right. They really got that right, with the whole gun thing. They, now they gotta get the smoking thing going. Gotta get rid of those cigarettes ".

That does sound like a stance on gun control to me.

After this, you also said: "Welcome to uhh Fox and Friends - the opposite of that".

If you read it, what does it sound like to you?
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Sounds like whatever you want it to be. Could've also been a stance on realistic airsoft guns.

"The crazy thing is...is that I can go into a bar in Japan and just like get drunk and shoot these fucking realistic guns and have a great time but I can't buy of the real guns and in America, I can gobuy all the real guns but I can't buy any realistic toy guns...it seems fucked up somehow and confusing to me"

Cheapy forgot the one rule of US gun-nuttery. If you don't immediately denounce and call any gun control as communist, socialist, and throw in a Hitler reference, you hate freedom.

 
guardian_owl said:
As far as system sellers, what turned around 3DS sales? Was it just the price drop or did a game like the first 3DS incarnation of Pokemon come out and spur sales?
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I don't think there has been a 3DS Pokémon game yet (at least not in the core franchise) - that's coming up soon. It will be interesting to see if that spurs even more 3DS sales though.

Shiro Ryuujin said:
It was the price drop that hugely increased sales on the 3DS, going from $250 to $170 saved it from the same fate the Wii U is currently suffering.
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But I don't think that was all there was to it. The price drop came nearly a year from launch and just about when the software started coming out. I don't think you can point to any one title (though two of the earlier ones were Mario 3D World and Mario Kart 7), but the cumulative effect of a bunch of high-quality first-party games and now more third-party stuff has built up big momentum for the 3DS. We may see the same thing here with the Wii U. Certainly the software is coming (including Pikmin 3 in a few days), so we'll see where it goes from there. If they don't see a big uptick in sales by January, then, yeah, they are in big trouble. But I don't think it is the end of the world for them yet.

And I'll back up Shipwreck's anecdotal evidence of Mario Kart being a system seller. Several times while perusing the game section at Fred Meyer or Target I saw people pick up Mario Kart and, incidentally, a Wii to go along with it. Super Mario Galaxy and SSBB were also frequently in the mix. The problem with the Wii U is that it doesn't have one of those types of games yet. As said on the show, NSMB isn't a new enough property - not only is there already the Wii version but one also just came out for the 3DS when the Wii U launched. Mario Kart, Super Smash Bros., and the new 3D Mario hopefully will push more sales in the next year+ (though I'm personally disappointed that the new Mario isn't more of a return to the Mario 64/Super Mario Sunshine type of game). As much as I love Pikmin and think it deserves to be a system seller, it won't be.

 
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Thanks for the movie recommendation Cheapy. I know very little about DC comics and have never watched any animated DC comic movies so this was nowhere on my radar. It was pretty awesome, I was very suprised by how much I liked it. The violence in the film was pretty shocking and it had a mature setting.

My one complaint is the amount of cameos, there were a ton of super heros/villans (most of which I know nothing about) that had very small parts in the film.

Anyways it is highly recommended and I think Shipwreck would like the film. This is coming from someone who does not follow comic books whatsoever.

 
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Watched Flashpoint last night.  I agree that it is the best of the DC movies.  BTW Mars: War Logs definitely deserves some love.  it is a little rough around the edges, but surprisingly engaging.  It is an action RPG set on Mars.  Plays a bit like Mass Effect, but with a focus on melee rather than ranged combat.  You control one character but can get party members.  There is a skill tree, crafting system and spec system (for lack of a better term).  I like that it is not a fantasy setting.  Try the demo.  It's free.

 
KingWulfgar said:
Thanks for that. I heard them talking about this and just cringed because it's another case of the CAGCast cast talking about something they don't know all the information on and spreading the wrong info instead of just saying "I don't know" or looking it up while they're chatting. Yeah, they say, "I think" and "I'm pretty sure" a lot, but it would be better if they just admitted they don't know, take a second to look it up, and come back to it later.
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It's a pretty interesting situation from the cheap gamer perspective because a lot of people who bought the season pass for $20 back in March were pissed off there had been no information about what the DLC would be until this week. And then they were mad that the first DLC was wave-based arena combat.

But then they realized they would get the two Burial at Sea story-driven episodes which will cost $30 on their own, which is a pretty good deal even if you never play Clash in the Clouds.

 
Curufinwe said:
But then they realized they would get the two Burial at Sea story-driven episodes which will cost $30 on their own, which is a pretty good deal even if you never play Clash in the Clouds.
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I agree with you. Honestly, I feel like most of the anger was unwarranted, but seems like lately gamers find the need to always be angry at something. We (as a group of consumers) have never had it better but we never seem happy.

 
With regards to my feedback last week, Cheapy stated after guns were banned in Japan and you could, therefore, get great airsoft guns, that; "this is where Japan gets it right"  or something to that effect.  He could have been talking about airsoft only, but I took it as covering the topic as a whole.

I don't mind the confusion though, it just fuels my hate-masturbation.  Thanks to Wombat for that, I laughed a good bit at that one.

 
"complaining about sexism in video games is like complaining about sexism in Playboy"

Maybe Shipwreck would like to expound on this brilliant analogy.  Personally I don't feel threatened by somebody criticizing my favorite hobby when the criticisms are valid.  

 
usickenme said:
Sounds like whatever you want it to be. Could've also been a stance on realistic airsoft guns.

"The crazy thing is...is that I can go into a bar in Japan and just like get drunk and shoot these fucking realistic guns and have a great time but I can't buy of the real guns and in America, I can gobuy all the real guns but I can't buy any realistic toy guns...it seems fucked up somehow and confusing to me"

Cheapy forgot the one rule of US gun-nuttery. If you don't immediately denounce and call any gun control as communist, socialist, and throw in a Hitler reference, you hate freedom.
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I agree - it could be either. If that is true, Cheapy should not be surprised at the multiple posts in the last show thread. It is not clear what he meant and that is the point of my post.

As for inferring that the other posters and I are "US gun-nuttery". It is a convincing appeal to ridicule argument and just as fallacious as the rest of the post after it.

I guess I forgot the one rule of the internet. Even if the other person in the thread can see your point and agrees that something could be seen in more than one way, that won't stop him or her from being a douche about it.

 
So how long before Phil Fish returns to the scene? My guess GDC next year where he will be showing Fez 2 behind close doors.

About Wii U, I think Nintendo should take their loss this generation and concentrate on the 3DS till they are ready to announce a more powerful console to compete with PS4 and Xbox One. Hopefully they will concentrate on online ready system.

 
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jbug617 said:
So how long before Phil Fish returns to the scene? My guess GDC next year where he will be showing Fez 2 behind close doors.
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If he has half a brain he'll partner with someone else and have him/her be the public face, and he can stay behind the scenes.

 
WinkyEmoticon said:
"complaining about sexism in video games is like complaining about sexism in Playboy"

Maybe Shipwreck would like to expound on this brilliant analogy. Personally I don't feel threatened by somebody criticizing my favorite hobby when the criticisms are valid.
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That's taking what I said out of context. I was talking about Saints Row IV and Dragon's Crown, not videogames as a whole.
 
Following the Phil Fish/Beer thing to the best of my attention span, it looks like both sides are total pricks.  Will either side be back doing something with video games soon? Sure.

The Green Arrow in the tv show is like 28 years old, because for some reason the CW has an aversion to having main characters over the age of 30, despite most of the male actors being over 30.  I laughed when the main character of Nikita said she was 27 in the first episode, even though Maggie Q was like 30 years old at the time. They're gonna have a younger Flash, since for some reason, having a older male role model is not in vogue.

Sam Daly voiced Superman in Flashpoint, and this was addressed in the Daly Show. Well, they didn't recast Lois Lane.

 
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Wombat is really getting on my nerves lately. Cheapy, please send Wombat and his family on a Disney Vacation so that we can have a Cheapy/Shipwreck CAGCast.  

 
hunterny77 said:
When I think of Phil Fish actions, I think of the adage ...Kettle calling the pot black!

Fish is a wannabe Internet bully that is too psychologically weak to handle retaliation back. He is just a troll and mostly likely trolling his fans with "canceling" Fez 2.

He is manipulator. This may be a farce; have you also seen his twitter pic it's Andy Kaufman. Read between the lines.
That game is mostly likely going to be released and maybe even on schedule. I can see the headlines now. Fez 2: the Return of Fish releasing March 15, 2015.

Phil suffers from a fish disease call rot; in his case he has rot of the mouth.
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shipwreck said:
That's taking what I said out of context. I was talking about Saints Row IV and Dragon's Crown, not videogames as a whole.
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I can see your point. But at the same time I do believe there is an immaturity prevalent in the video game business. It seems like games like Dragon's Crown have been designed the way they are almost by mistake. In that they are not really understanding what message they are portraying with the art they have chosen. It's mostly the work of an artist thinking "bigger breast == better".

If you contrast this with "magazines for men" those magazines are extremely aware of the message they portray. So everything else in those magazines are targeted at their demographic.

There doesn't really seem to be anything else in Dragon's Crown that is specifically targeting "men" and in that sense it seems like a bad design choice. Because you are going to actively drive people away from your game. And in some cases make people avoid your products in the future. I can't be the only one that thinks the game looks kind of cool but will not pick it up because it's the kind of game that I can't play in nice company.

In contrast I think SR4 does a better job at targeting their demographic. Because everything in those games tends to be over the top and embracing stupidity and the juvenile. If the somewhat gratuitous nature of SR4 turns you away you would probably not like the game anyways.

 
So maybe you can talk about that anyways shipwreck.  Are you saying that Dragons Crown, like Playboy, is made for men and therefore should be held to a different standard of decency then other games?

 
jbug617 said:
So how long before Phil Fish returns to the scene? My guess GDC next year where he will be showing Fez 2 behind close doors.
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Phil Fish should not return and pull a full Sarah Palin. This means, start doing the thing you detest: get into (games) journalism.

See the logic here? She "quit" politics and joined Fox to battle the "Lamestream" media. Phil could also "quit" and get a job writing about the gaming scene to get massive hits. Trust me, he will get a HUGE following (with those who either love or loathe him) just to see what he says next. Phil gets paid well and can actually come out of quitting-ness (like Sarah) when it suits him. All the while, he keeps his face in the game which is better than just disappearing in a few weeks.

Just you wait. There will be a new column called FISH TALES from Phil on the Escapist site to premiere right after Zero Punctuation on Wednesdays. I'd stick around to see it.

 
Fun fact: if you google hate masterbation the first link that comes up is "Masterbation - Does God hate me?" from yahoo answers. That begs the question does god hate-masterbate because we masterbate? These are the deep question you guys should be answering.

 
shipwreck said:
That's taking what I said out of context. I was talking about Saints Row IV and Dragon's Crown, not videogames as a whole.
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While I don't think of using playboy in your argument works, I do agree with you that there a lot more worse things that degrading if not physically harmful to woman. The developers of Dragon's Crown knew what to expect, just like I'm sure the people at Polygon knew what to expect when they posted their review. I think people just need to stop looking too much into thing for messages that just aren't there.

 
When Shipwreck said the Wii U was a nice little machine it reminded me of the Charlie Brown Xmas Special when they are talking about the little tree.  I agree with Wombat there some indie games that are really good. I think the term "a lot" is an exgeration. 

I was checking the thread post right as Cheapy was making the "guarantee"  which made the Denzel video and Cheapy statement very funny. 

 
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Re: Dragon's Crown discussion

So, let's say a new Mario game came out, the content is similar to previous titles, except whenever Mario stomps on a Goomba it explodes into a graphic shower of blood, internal organs, bones, etc.

Wouldn't a reviewer be justified if they scored down the game due to the small inclusion of intense violence since it detracts from the family friendly nature of the rest of the game even if the rest of the gameplay was technically sound?

 
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Great show guys.

But c'mon some indie quits gaming and the internet is blowing up over it?

I can't believe Shipwreck recommends PCs for gaming.  This is CHEAPassgamer right?

A PC would have to last 10 years to even out the cost of a $400 console. 

 
guardian_owl said:
Re: Dragon's Crown discussion

So, let's say a new Mario game came out, the content is similar to previous titles, except whenever Mario stomps on a Goomba it explodes into a graphic shower of blood, internal organs, bones, etc.

Wouldn't a reviewer be justified if they scored down the game due to the small inclusion of intense violence since it detracts from the family friendly nature of the rest of the game even if the rest of the gameplay was technically sound?
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I don't understand this analogy. You've seen characters from previous games by Vanillaware right? Dragon's Crown is not far off from the art found in the likes of say Muramasa:

or Odin Sphere:

2475855-5702149242-19788.jpg


Or the myriad of other examples in these games that are laden with sexual innuendo.

 
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Judging all video games by these few examples is like saying that music is sexist and misogynistic because you heard a 2 Live Crew song.

 
Ship - I was trying to reiterate what (I thought) you were saying in the CAGCast.   If mainstream media is using these two games as examples of all games, they are using outliers as examples.

 
Hey Guys,

In reference to the Dragon Crown game and the animation of the protagonist, women in video games, in general, are often portrayed as over sexualized, oversized, disportional breasted girls that usually need a man for fulfillment or are hapless. The problem is the majority of developers and male gamers reflect their attitude on women and are reflected on games. This misogynistic, distorted view of women will only be change when more female developers create games that address the issue and more female gamers demand games that are more realistic and positive view of women.

I am not saying game developers should stop producing mature-rated titles, but when a person goes to a strip club, he/she knows naked bodies will be shown. Games needed to reflect that to inform gamers if they wish to play over sexualized games, it’s for entertainment only, not the actual portrayal of women.

A side note, I understand and agree with Shipwreck analogy of the Playboy.

 
I have to disagree with Wombat that the window for a Wii-U price drop is closing fast. I can certainly see the point that once the new systems come out, people will be less interested in the similarly-priced last-gen Nintendo console, but I think the Wii-U could still get a price drop early next year when Mario Kart is released and still drum up some interest. Dropping the Wii-U price now might move a few more consoles but there's still a lack of a strong library for the system. I can't see the millions of casual gamers that Nintendo acquired with the Wii looking at the Wii-U as anything but an unnecessary upgrade right now. 

 
RE: Dragon's Crown discussion

Saw this video posted on Escapist today. Damn shame that a game has to receive perfects around the board, otherwise its deemed a failure. If someone really is only looking for a game to topple Zelda: OOT as the best reviewed game on Metacritic its probably never going to happen because there are a lot more reviewers these days. Also, for a 'new' gaming site, Polygon has certainly been in a lot of review controversy [SimCity, Last of Us, Dragon's Crown] to name a few. I remember when GameSpot was the bad guy. 

Not to sound sexist, but perhaps women would find the designs in Dragon's Crown more offensive than men. It by no means is acceptable depiction of women, but men are far more likely to let it slide imo. I don't believe that IGN's review of the title even mentioned being turned off from the art style. 

 
metallicoholic said:
I have to disagree with Wombat that the window for a Wii-U price drop is closing fast. I can certainly see the point that once the new systems come out, people will be less interested in the similarly-priced last-gen Nintendo console, but I think the Wii-U could still get a price drop early next year when Mario Kart is released and still drum up some interest. Dropping the Wii-U price now might move a few more consoles but there's still a lack of a strong library for the system. I can't see the millions of casual gamers that Nintendo acquired with the Wii looking at the Wii-U as anything but an unnecessary upgrade right now.
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Good thoughts, but I think Wombat is right about a true price drop. Instead, Nintendo will create a bundle with a free (or more than one) game at the same price point near Xmas. I love my Wii U, but Nintendo must be betting on Smash Bros to save the system.

I LOVED it when they dropped the price on the 3DS and gave the early adopters free games to download. I was hoping for something like that around E3 this year. Meh.

 
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A price drop now I don't think will do much. They do NEED to do a price drop but after there are more games and they advertise a little better. They need another marketing push to explain what the Wii U is to the mainstream.

 
Great show guys! Wombat, you should get a PC. The games are cheaper, better looking and people can easily give you games for free.

 
I'm glad Cheapy is enjoying Saints Row IV, but does he actually believe it will do well sales wise? In this overcrowded end of the year where the absolute best of the best in games is coming out, Saints Row doesn't stand a chance in my opinion. I only have so much cash to spend on games, and I'll be saving my cash for GTA V and Watchdogs. And I also still have to buy all the great games that came out earlier this year. I'll probably pick up Saints Row IV when it's under 20 euro's. I know a lot of my friends who are doing the exact same thing. Having played Saints Row The Third and completing it 100%, I really don't feel the need to pay another 40-50 euro's just to buy the same game with different jokes.

 
Wombat: You should start a campaign against violent video-advertisement before videos on youtube as well. I look at a lot of tractor- and, excavatorvids and of course a lot of kids videos with my 2yr-old, and get a lot of advertisement for 18+ movies and such! They should also have a way to let me choose family friendly ads.. My last example before a Bob the Builder-song was an ad for the movie R.I.P.D

It's not just xbox that have these kind of problems.

 
I'm of two minds on the subject of sexism in games.

On one hand, I want video games to be better than that, and I want to not feel embarrassed by them in mixed company.

On the other hand, if I want video games to be a broad as film, books, music, etc. I have to accept that there will be people using the medium for things that I think are skeevy. No one decries all of film just because snuff films exist, for example.

The hurdle is getting video games held to the same standards as other mediums by the mainstream in general, which is currently not the case. People DO see gross shit in games and then write them all off. I want to be able to tell people that I'm into video games without having to size them up first and guess how they'll react. I want to be able to say that my interests are video games in a job interview without hesitating any more than someone who's into music would.

 
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It's sad that people talk so much about the sexiness of Dragon's Crown when it's such a deep and rewarding game. There are just so many little things that you learn that its just not possible to take a completely new player and explain all the intricacies of playing the game at a higher level to maximize score, item loadouts etc.

This is miles above whatever Diablo 3 will offer on consoles both in terms of gameplay and depth. If you ever wanted to play a hybrid gauntlet legends vs. beat em up game this is it. 

You have so many options with how you spend your skill points on abilities to play the game. So many choices on items and gear to bring. So many choices on which NPCs to ressurect based on their stats/gear/skills. It's just fun as hell.

The sex nonsense doesn't even cross my mind. The only time I ever stopped and said damn thats kinda hot was the mermaid screen. Other than that I don't really care. Too busy enjoying the game. And the rabbit boss was hilarious.

 
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There are lots of good games that have problematic elements. I was just re-playing Metal Gear Solid -- classic, revered game -- and it's full of uncomfortable moments that didn't even register with me when I played it when I was younger. You can still consider it a great game, but it's not exactly equal in its depiction of characters. I wish I didn't have to chalk it up so often to "Oh, Japan!" but it is what it is.

 
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