Capital Punishment

[quote name='Cerebral_One']Do you support Capital Punishment and, if so, why? What alternatives do you suggest?[/QUOTE]

Yes, and do you're own homework!
 
What? I don't support it. We need to change our prison system. More rehabilitation. Greater use of technology for controlling prisons, less employees.
 
[quote name='Jabrim']Yes, and do you're own homework![/QUOTE]

Dude. It's friggin Memorial Day weekend. What summer schools would make you write a paper about capital punishment?
 
Haha I can assure you this isn't for no homework paper, just trying to see what people's views are. I had just watched a show about some guy who was in prison for half his life despite being innocent and then saw a prisoner write about what solitary confinement was like for 28 years. I think this is an important question to review instead of ignoring it.
 
The incarceration system in America is a booming business and is not going to change. It has not changed a lot in the past few hundred years and I doubt it is going to. Between 1990 and 1999 a new prison opened every fifteen days. The problem with reform is that people have to want to be reformed, those that don't, just have to be warehoused through their sentence so they can get out and reoffend. As far as capital punishment goes I believe it is absolutely necessary in reaction to some crimes. It has been scientifically proven and talked about in the past that sexual predators and child molestors cannot even be reformed, it is something wrong with their brains, where normal people are attracted to adults, they are attracted to kids and thats what they want. I don't know about others but, I have a daughter and I say kill them if they are a sexual predator who cannot be reformed.
 
[quote name='depascal22']Sexual predators don't get the death penalty though...[/QUOTE]

Those that kidnap, rape, and murder children do.
 
[quote name='Jabrim']Those that kidnap, rape, and murder children do.[/QUOTE]

If you kidnap and murder anybody, you're up for the death penalty. Raping a child, unfortunately doesn't net you a death sentence.

I agree with you on the death penalty but I don't think we limit it to children.
 
Is there any evidence that the death penalty acts as a deterrent beyond that of life in prison for the crimes it is generally applied to? One could oppose it purely on the grounds of cost effectiveness - life in prison is vastly cheaper.

Alternatively, we have to keep them around in order for the possibility of further suffering.
 
If they would reduce the appeals process and not drag out the death penalty process as a whole it would be cheaper to have someone on death row. Havinge inmates on death row for decades is absolutely insane. After they have exhausted their appeals process which should be limited, they should be executed.
 
Nope, can't take it back if you fuck up.

And on the side issue here - child predators aren't necessarily unable to be rehabilitated. Even brain differences (which I'd like to see) don't necessitate permanent behavioral differences. The brain is malleable and brain differences that correlate with those behaviors don't cause those behaviors.

Also, who you're sexually attracted to (which isn't even relevant, since attraction isn't the issue - I'm attracted to adult women, I don't rape them) is not simply something that is predetermined by brain structure.

I think the problem with the prison system is that it's essentially American-approved welfare. A lot of crime would be reduced if we focused on changing the social conditions that produce criminals, thus eliminating the need for many of our prisons. But that requires helping people before they end up in prison and would go against our meritocratic ideals that require both that we believe that everybody can make it if they try and the flipside that if they don't make it they're not trying. Thus people in prison must deserve to be there, and it's nobody's fault but their own.
 
[quote name='SpazX']Nope, can't take it back if you fuck up.

And on the side issue here - child predators aren't necessarily unable to be rehabilitated. Even brain differences (which I'd like to see) don't necessitate permanent behavioral differences. The brain is malleable and brain differences that correlate with those behaviors don't cause those behaviors.

Also, who you're sexually attracted to (which isn't even relevant, since attraction isn't the issue - I'm attracted to adult women, I don't rape them) is not simply something that is predetermined by brain structure.

I think the problem with the prison system is that it's essentially American-approved welfare. A lot of crime would be reduced if we focused on changing the social conditions that produce criminals, thus eliminating the need for many of our prisons. But that requires helping people before they end up in prison and would go against our meritocratic ideals that require both that we believe that everybody can make it if they try and the flipside that if they don't make it they're not trying. Thus people in prison must deserve to be there, and it's nobody's fault but their own.[/QUOTE]

Prison is a booming industry across the globe. It is not an American idea to lock people up.
 
A much larger proportion of the US population is in prison. Highest in the world, in fact, 743 per 100,000 people in 2009, compared to, for example, 154 in England (in 2011).
 
No

Meritocratic beliefs (including essentialist ideas about human behavior) -> lack of social welfare, disbelief in possibility of rehabilitation -> Higher crime, higher prison populations (and, as a side note, more support for the death penalty)

The higher prison population at any given point is also due not only (or maybe even primarily) to higher crime rates, but longer jailtimes (which would be associated with similar beliefs).

The point in me showing you the difference in prison populations was to show that this isn't equal throughout the world as you implied.
 
[quote name='SpazX']Nope, can't take it back if you fuck up.[/quote]

This!
Not to mention:
A) There have been people on Death Row exonerated by DNA after a long incarceration. Who knows if we've missed.
B) The application of the death penalty is uneven for the same offense. If you're poor or a minority, you're more likely to face the death penalty.
 
You're no better than the criminals if you believe in putting them to death, especially when the death penalty does not deter people from committing crimes anymore than being imprisoned does and the cost to kill someone is more than keeping them in prison.
 
I'm a big fan of the death penalty. If they get 100 scumbags and 1 wrong dude, I'm OK with those odds. The liklihood of being falsely accused while you sit on your coach watching Friends re-runs is very low (I assume). If the cops had a reason to pick you up and charge you with it, at the very least you were in the wrong place at the wrong time, but more likely involved in criminal life in some way.

Sexual crimes against children should warrant the death penalty IMO, but sadly instead they just go to prison, get out, and do it again.
 
I tend to lean towards being against capital punishment, it always seemed like petty retribution for the public or victim. I mean, what other reason is there to kill him if he's already locked up? People make it pretty clear why they are for the death penalty because they always display an attitude that sounds like, "fuck those pedophiles that rape kids, they deserve to die."

I just feel it'd be nice to work past that way of thinking. Killing people left and right just makes a society look a bit behind the times IMO. There will always be crazy people ruining the lives of others, and I'm not sure if it's been proven to be a good deterrent unless we do it on a much more intense level.

And what happens in death anyways? You're just ceasing someone's existence. It sounds like a pretty boring form of punishment, since the criminal really isn't going to care -- he's dead. Maybe there should be more torture?
 
[quote name='panzerfaust']I tend to lean towards being against capital punishment, it always seemed like petty retribution for the public or victim. I mean, what other reason is there to kill him if he's already locked up? People make it pretty clear why they are for the death penalty because they always display an attitude that sounds like, "fuck those pedophiles that rape kids, they deserve to die."

I just feel it'd be nice to work past that way of thinking. Killing people left and right just makes a society look a bit behind the times IMO. There will always be crazy people ruining the lives of others, and I'm not sure if it's been proven to be a good deterrent unless we do it on a much more intense level.

And what happens in death anyways? You're just ceasing someone's existence. It sounds like a pretty boring form of punishment, since the criminal really isn't going to care -- he's dead. Maybe there should be more torture?[/QUOTE]

You sound like a naive kid, wait till you grow up and learn the ways of the world.

I'm for the death penalty.
 
Well if it's an effective deterrent and it saves a lot of money, I could be for it until hopefully a better solution is found. I'm not sure about those statistics though so I'm not going to pretend I know what I'm talking about (not that anyone else has put effort into citing information yet).

All I was expressing was that if it's done merely for victim satisfaction, then I'm not personally a fan, and I'd hope we have systems in place to put emotional decisions in check (and emotional response is the entire first page of this thread, with no other reason given other than "it could save the U.S. more money if we actually executed criminal immediately after process").

I don't come to VS often though, but I guess what I'm doing is childish and 2 line responses with blatant insults is the adult thing to do here?
 
[quote name='panzerfaust']Well if it's an effective deterrent and it saves a lot of money, I could be for it until hopefully a better solution is found. I'm not sure about those statistics though so I'm not going to pretend I know what I'm talking about (not that anyone else has put effort into citing information yet).[/quote]
Let's forget about statistics for now and examine what you already think and then we'll fill you in on some general facts without going into the minutae:

Do you think the death penalty in effective deterrent? What is your rationale for stating that it saves money?

All I was expressing was that if it's done merely for victim satisfaction, then I'm not personally a fan, and I'd hope we have systems in place to put emotional decisions in check (and emotional response is the entire first page of this thread, with no other reason given other than "it could save the U.S. more money if we actually executed criminal immediately after process").
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Victim satifaction doesn't really "factor" into death penalty cases. The death penalty is decided by a jury of "peers." The reason why it costs more is because of the appeals process. It's a pretty heavy sentence and requires that the case that was presented was on the up and up. The problems come when you have coerced/coached eye-witnesses, having minority defendants being stacked with all white juries, planted evidence, poor representation, and a host of other things. If the judicial system executes 1 person of a crime they didn't commit, we have a serious fucking problem. The judicial system is not set up to be "fair," it's set up to punish the guilty of a "crime"...whatever that "crime" may be or manufactured.

I don't come to VS often though, but I guess what I'm doing is childish and 2 line responses with blatant insults is the adult thing to do here?
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No, that's what you get when you make statements based on nothing but "feelings" without a moment taken to examine them for another second. Justsayin
 
[quote name='panzerfaust']I tend to lean towards being against capital punishment, it always seemed like petty retribution for the public or victim. I mean, what other reason is there to kill him if he's already locked up? People make it pretty clear why they are for the death penalty because they always display an attitude that sounds like, "fuck those pedophiles that rape kids, they deserve to die."

I just feel it'd be nice to work past that way of thinking. Killing people left and right just makes a society look a bit behind the times IMO. There will always be crazy people ruining the lives of others, and I'm not sure if it's been proven to be a good deterrent unless we do it on a much more intense level.

And what happens in death anyways? You're just ceasing someone's existence. It sounds like a pretty boring form of punishment, since the criminal really isn't going to care -- he's dead. Maybe there should be more torture?[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure about those who say the death penalty costs more than keeping someone in prison for life, along with free health care, housing and food, so I throw that consideration out rather quickly. There is more to the death penalty than a deterrant though. If I'm a victim's family member, and some guy murdered my wife and children so he could take the minivan for a spin, and get the petty change in my wife's purse, nothing shy of setting the person on fire and watching him burn would be fair recompense to me, but instead our legal system allows for more humane methods of killing violent criminals. It's for the general public to show that if you kill somebody, we might kill you back, but why do you think they invite victim's families to watch the execution? It's for the victim's families too to provide some form of closure.

I'm assuming none of us have had a loved one murdered (I certainly haven't) so it's hard for us to say where we would be on the death penalty, but trying to imagine myself in that position will ALWAYS make me a supporter of capital punishment.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dru_Sjodin
This is the reason I'm all for the death penalty, particularly in sexual cases. The guy had no business being in public, plain and simple.
Also, death penalty for Bernie Madof and his ilk. If you screw someone out of their life savings for the thrill of it, you're not worthy of the benefits of our society.
 
[quote name='berzirk']I'm not sure about those who say the death penalty costs more than keeping someone in prison for life, along with free health care, housing and food, so I throw that consideration out rather quickly. There is more to the death penalty than a deterrant though. If I'm a victim's family member, and some guy murdered my wife and children so he could take the minivan for a spin, and get the petty change in my wife's purse, nothing shy of setting the person on fire and watching him burn would be fair recompense to me, but instead our legal system allows for more humane methods of killing violent criminals. It's for the general public to show that if you kill somebody, we might kill you back, but why do you think they invite victim's families to watch the execution? It's for the victim's families too to provide some form of closure.

I'm assuming none of us have had a loved one murdered (I certainly haven't) so it's hard for us to say where we would be on the death penalty, but trying to imagine myself in that position will ALWAYS make me a supporter of capital punishment.[/QUOTE]
Crime doesn't happen because criminals are born criminals. Crime is a symptom of inequities in society. And lets say that the person that murdered your wife and kids has a clinical mental disorder that went untreated (which is usually the case), is it also not societies responsisbility to recognize those issues BEFORE someone goes on a murderous rampage?

This added to the fact that black males are disproportionately represented on death row? No, the death penalty and the system that allows it is fucked no matter how you try to put it.

Convictions are not about actual guilt or innocence of a crime: it's about whether a jury of your "peers" decide you're guilty or not guilty; not innocent.
 
[quote name='dohdough']Let's forget about statistics for now and examine what you already think and then we'll fill you in on some general facts without going into the minutae:

Do you think the death penalty in effective deterrent? What is your rationale for stating that it saves money?


Victim satifaction doesn't really "factor" into death penalty cases. The death penalty is decided by a jury of "peers." The reason why it costs more is because of the appeals process. It's a pretty heavy sentence and requires that the case that was presented was on the up and up. The problems come when you have coerced/coached eye-witnesses, having minority defendants being stacked with all white juries, planted evidence, poor representation, and a host of other things. If the judicial system executes 1 person of a crime they didn't commit, we have a serious fucking problem. The judicial system is not set up to be "fair," it's set up to punish the guilty of a "crime"...whatever that "crime" may be or manufactured.


No, that's what you get when you make statements based on nothing but "feelings" without a moment taken to examine them for another second. Justsayin[/QUOTE]

Well yes I was emotionally opinionated but now that we're getting information on here I can better understand the situation, and I'm starting to realize it's very difficult one to take sides with.

1. In terms of the DP being an effective deterrent you start to venture into psychology. What people do in the heat of the moment? Do killers really care about the consequences? Does the rarity of executions really have any effect on behavior? I could only throw an uneducated an opinion on that subject, and mine would probably be along the lines of believing most heinous crimes are committed by people too irrational to care about long term consequences. Who knows though?

2. Saving money? You went over this and it seems the issue is we need to have a long appeals process to make sure mistakes aren't made. But a long appeals process may make the DP seem less threatening to potential criminals, and it costs money. Someone already stated they think making one mistake every 100 executions is okay, but I disagree strongly with that.

Always open to new information, I'm not very stubborn on the subject and would enjoy some discussion other than what usually happens in VS threads.
 
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[quote name='panzerfaust']Well yes my opinion was emotionally opinionated but now that we're getting information on here I can better understand the situation, and I'm starting to realize it's very difficult one to take sides with.

1. In terms of the DP being an effective deterrent you start to venture into psychology. What people do in the heat of the moment? Do killers really care about the consequences? Does the rarity of executions really have any effect on behavior? I could only throw an uneducated an opinion on that subject, and mine would probably be along the lines of believing most heinous crimes are committed by people too irrational to care about long term consequences. Who knows though?

2. Saving money? You went over this and it seems the issue is we need to have a long appeals process to make sure mistakes aren't made. But a long appeals process may make the DP seem less threatening to potential criminals, and it costs money. Someone already stated they think making one mistake every 100 executions is okay, but I disagree strongly with that.

Always open to new information, I'm not very stubborn on the subject and would enjoy some discussion other than what usually happens in VS threads.[/QUOTE]
The problem with your reasoning is that you assume everyone convicted of a crime is guilty and gets the proper punishment.
 
What is interesting is you see all of these liberal heart's bleeding, but if one of their family members or children were murdered, let's say after being sexually abused. I can bet that he/she would want to suspect who was found guilty killed using the death penalty. They can talk all of their holier than thou shit if they want.
 
[quote name='Jabrim']What is interesting is you see all of these liberal heart's bleeding, but if one of their family members or children were murdered, let's say after being sexually abused. I can bet that he/she would want to suspect who was found guilty killed using the death penalty. They can talk all of their holier than thou shit if they want.[/QUOTE]
You're so cute. It's like you were a victim of abuse yourself, but never got the proper counseling to deal with it. Perpetuate it much?
 
[quote name='Jabrim']What is interesting is you see all of these liberal heart's bleeding, but if one of their family members or children were murdered, let's say after being sexually abused. I can bet that he/she would want to suspect who was found guilty killed using the death penalty. They can talk all of their holier than thou shit if they want.[/QUOTE]

The only acceptable form of killing is in defense of a mortal threat.

No person, entity, or governing body has the right to end someone's life, be it retribution, murder, the death penalty, assassination, preventive wars, or anything otherwise.
 
[quote name='Jabrim']What is interesting is you see all of these liberal heart's bleeding, but if one of their family members or children were murdered, let's say after being sexually abused. I can bet that he/she would want to suspect who was found guilty killed using the death penalty. They can talk all of their holier than thou shit if they want.[/QUOTE]

If someone killed a loved one of mine I'd want them dead. But that's why we have a system in place so I'm not out committing my own form of justice, or making terrible mistakes from emotional decisions.
 
[quote name='Feeding the Abscess']The only acceptable form of killing is in defense of a mortal threat.

No person, entity, or governing body has the right to end someone's life, be it retribution, murder, the death penalty, assassination, preventive wars, or anything otherwise.[/QUOTE]

This coming from someone with a picture of an executioner as their avatar.
 
[quote name='dohdough']You're so cute. It's like you were a victim of abuse yourself, but never got the proper counseling to deal with it. Perpetuate it much?[/QUOTE]

Actually no, I work in corrections so I know some of the scum first hand that are in these jails and prisons.
 
[quote name='Feeding the Abscess']The only acceptable form of killing is in defense of a mortal threat.

No person, entity, or governing body has the right to end someone's life, be it retribution, murder, the death penalty, assassination, preventive wars, or anything otherwise.[/QUOTE]

Well you can't have it both ways. The people on death row are not there because of self defense, therefore they must have murdered multiple people at the minimum, if not done other violent acts. To be on death row is not an easy thing, and I'm sure there is an abundance of evidence to prove they are, I realize some in prison may be truly innocent but it's not a perfect world, especially when you realize that the victims of crime are almost always innocent to. Look at that family in NY where the husband got away but the wife and I think one of the kids were raped and then the house was burned down while they were still alive. There is no way that can possibly be explained excused or rationalized in any way.

As for the topic, I used to be for the death penalty but as long as those who eligible can never be paroled than they should be made to hard labor for the rest of their lives, not laying in a bed all day.

And I know it's off topic slightly, but nobody made a thread about it, and I'm talking about the pending release of 50K plus prisoners in California. I'm sure that is what California needs right now, 50,000 most people with records on the streets, probably unable to get normal jobs and for good reasons, in the midst of a horrible recession. Wonder how long it will take them before they get arrested again, I'm wonder how much crime they will experience out there?
 
[quote name='berzirk']The liklihood of being falsely accused while you sit on your coach watching Friends re-runs is very low (I assume). If the cops had a reason to pick you up and charge you with it, at the very least you were in the wrong place at the wrong time, but more likely involved in criminal life in some way.[/QUOTE]

I don't think that's how a nation of laws is supposed to work.
 
[quote name='jputahraptor']Well you can't have it both ways. The people on death row are not there because of self defense, therefore they must have murdered multiple people at the minimum, if not done other violent acts. To be on death row is not an easy thing, and I'm sure there is an abundance of evidence to prove they are, I realize some in prison may be truly innocent but it's not a perfect world, especially when you realize that the victims of crime are almost always innocent to. Look at that family in NY where the husband got away but the wife and I think one of the kids were raped and then the house was burned down while they were still alive. There is no way that can possibly be explained excused or rationalized in any way.

As for the topic, I used to be for the death penalty but as long as those who eligible can never be paroled than they should be made to hard labor for the rest of their lives, not laying in a bed all day.

And I know it's off topic slightly, but nobody made a thread about it, and I'm talking about the pending release of 50K plus prisoners in California. I'm sure that is what California needs right now, 50,000 most people with records on the streets, probably unable to get normal jobs and for good reasons, in the midst of a horrible recession. Wonder how long it will take them before they get arrested again, I'm wonder how much crime they will experience out there?[/QUOTE]

More often than not they just reoffend, so you will see more crimes and or violent crimes because I doubt 50,000 people were rehabilitated.
 
[quote name='Jabrim']Actually no, I work in corrections so I know some of the scum first hand that are in these jails and prisons.[/QUOTE]
Beat any prisoners lately?

[quote name='jputahraptor']Well you can't have it both ways. The people on death row are not there because of self defense, therefore they must have murdered multiple people at the minimum, if not done other violent acts. To be on death row is not an easy thing, and I'm sure there is an abundance of evidence to prove they are, I realize some in prison may be truly innocent but it's not a perfect world, especially when you realize that the victims of crime are almost always innocent to. Look at that family in NY where the husband got away but the wife and I think one of the kids were raped and then the house was burned down while they were still alive. There is no way that can possibly be explained excused or rationalized in any way.

As for the topic, I used to be for the death penalty but as long as those who eligible can never be paroled than they should be made to hard labor for the rest of their lives, not laying in a bed all day.[/QUOTE]
Kinda like slavery? Which creates it's own problems as labor is sold virtually without restrictions? Or how about we have them pick cotton? Guess what, this stuff already happens.

And I know it's off topic slightly, but nobody made a thread about it, and I'm talking about the pending release of 50K plus prisoners in California. I'm sure that is what California needs right now, 50,000 most people with records on the streets, probably unable to get normal jobs and for good reasons, in the midst of a horrible recession. Wonder how long it will take them before they get arrested again, I'm wonder how much crime they will experience out there?
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If we treat people like animals and make sure that they don't have any chance at any kind of life, what do you expect to happen?

[quote name='Jabrim']More often than not they just reoffend, so you will see more crimes and or violent crimes because I doubt 50,000 people were rehabilitated.[/QUOTE]
For some strange reason, I don't think rehabilitation is something you're concerned with.
 
[quote name='dohdough']Beat any prisoners lately?


Kinda like slavery? Which creates it's own problems as labor is sold virtually without restrictions? Or how about we have them pick cotton? Guess what, this stuff already happens.


If we treat people like animals and make sure that they don't have any chance at any kind of life, what do you expect to happen?


For some strange reason, I don't think rehabilitation is something you're concerned with.[/QUOTE]

No I haven't beaten any prisoners lately, but I am sure that is a lie and everything you say is correct.

While I am concerned with rehabilitation it is not my job to rehabilitate people, it is my job to ensure the care, custody, and control of the inmates I supervise. So feel free to come back with some more inmate loving response as I am sure you will.
 
[quote name='Jabrim']No I haven't beaten any prisoners lately, but I am sure that is a lie and everything you say is correct.

While I am concerned with rehabilitation it is not my job to rehabilitate people, it is my job to ensure the care, custody, and control of the inmates I supervise. So feel free to come back with some more inmate loving response as I am sure you will.[/QUOTE]
HAHA...you're funny and sad at the same time. "Inmate loving response?" Just because I have some basic empathy for fellow human beings doesn't make me some sort of defective person. Unlike how your responses say that about you.

You're a part of that rehabilitation process whether you admit it or not. Yes, you have a dangerous job, but is that the a product of the criminals or the system thats engineered to be that way? Or maybe you just like the power trip. fuck if I know. But don't come down on me because you have a streak of sociopathy in you.
 
Rehabilitation isn't really the goal of prison here, it's considered purely as a punishment by a lot of people, a sentiment that seems to be shared by many of the replies (I refer again to beliefs about people being inherently good or bad, which would make rehabilitation pointless).

Btw, the death penalty doesn't really bring closure for the families either (despite how much they want it and think killing the perpetrator will help, it doesn't really make you feel any better in the long run). It doesn't bring anybody back. Life in prison doesn't put somebody back out on the street where the death penalty doesn't.

I also don't think it's more of a deterrent than life without parole, and if you think someone can be deterred then they can be rehabilitated.
 
[quote name='berzirk']I'm a big fan of the death penalty. If they get 100 scumbags and 1 wrong dude, I'm OK with those odds. The liklihood of being falsely accused while you sit on your coach watching Friends re-runs is very low (I assume). If the cops had a reason to pick you up and charge you with it, at the very least you were in the wrong place at the wrong time, but more likely involved in criminal life in some way.

Sexual crimes against children should warrant the death penalty IMO, but sadly instead they just go to prison, get out, and do it again.[/QUOTE]

Are you okay with those odds as long as it's not you or someone you care about? We shouldn't be okay with the odds of even 1 single innocent person in prison/put to death. Every person deserves to have a life that is not destroyed through carelessness, ignorance, being seen as a #, or being lost within what we call "law".

[quote name='jputahraptor']Well you can't have it both ways. The people on death row are not there because of self defense, therefore they must have murdered multiple people at the minimum, if not done other violent acts. To be on death row is not an easy thing, and I'm sure there is an abundance of evidence to prove they are, I realize some in prison may be truly innocent but it's not a perfect world, especially when you realize that the victims of crime are almost always innocent to. Look at that family in NY where the husband got away but the wife and I think one of the kids were raped and then the house was burned down while they were still alive. There is no way that can possibly be explained excused or rationalized in any way.

As for the topic, I used to be for the death penalty but as long as those who eligible can never be paroled than they should be made to hard labor for the rest of their lives, not laying in a bed all day.

And I know it's off topic slightly, but nobody made a thread about it, and I'm talking about the pending release of 50K plus prisoners in California. I'm sure that is what California needs right now, 50,000 most people with records on the streets, probably unable to get normal jobs and for good reasons, in the midst of a horrible recession. Wonder how long it will take them before they get arrested again, I'm wonder how much crime they will experience out there?[/QUOTE]

Regarding the issue with the family that was attacked, some of that was due to inequality. I hate to say it, but they were attacked because they were rich. Doesn't mean people who pursue helping others by becoming a doctor is wrong, or that the amount they're paid is wrong, but demonstrates they can be a target for those with no money, who do what they do due to that and their other life circumstances.

As long as their is inequality and wages that don't sustain people when you mix this in with some of the circumstances of people's lives, you will see people commit such crimes. I'm not saying it's all about money, but that is something that can be changed more easily than the circumstances of life, and would go a long way to prevent such circumstances from occurring and/or turning people bad.
 
[quote name='berzirk']I'm not sure about those who say the death penalty costs more than keeping someone in prison for life, along with free health care, housing and food, so I throw that consideration out rather quickly. [/quote]
I dont have the cite in front of me right now, but while watching CSPAN this weekend, a person they had on talking about the California prison situation proffered that is costs about $48K a year to incarcerate an average offender. They said it in the context of claim that California was spending the equivalent of an Ivy League education on criminals. Take it for what you will.

I'm assuming none of us have had a loved one murdered (I certainly haven't) so it's hard for us to say where we would be on the death penalty, but trying to imagine myself in that position will ALWAYS make me a supporter of capital punishment.
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Depends on how you define "loved one":
If a classmate and friend counts: +2
If a neighbor and friend counts: +1
If a cousin, more specifically the father of a similar aged cousin who is like a sister counts: +1
If limited to only immediate family (parents/siblings/children): Thank God +0

I came to my position despite all these murders.

[quote name='Jabrim']What is interesting is you see all of these liberal heart's bleeding, but if one of their family members or children were murdered, let's say after being sexually abused. I can bet that he/she would want to suspect who was found guilty killed using the death penalty. They can talk all of their holier than thou shit if they want.[/QUOTE]

Have you ever known anyone who was sexually abused? Well I've been close (really close) to at least three, two who were children when it happened, one barely an adult. Thankfully, none was murdered, but the scars run deep and sometimes surface in devastating ways. Of course this brings up emotions of retribution, but that doesnt make it right.

Morally, I'm *not* opposed to the death penalty. However, after seeing the way it is applied, and often mis-applied, in this country (and others) I cannot support it. Nothing brings your friends back.
 
[quote name='Jabrim']What is interesting is you see all of these liberal heart's bleeding, but if one of their family members or children were murdered, let's say after being sexually abused. I can bet that he/she would want to suspect who was found guilty killed using the death penalty. They can talk all of their holier than thou shit if they want.[/QUOTE]

Speaking as a bleeding-heart liberal, I'm all for the death penalty.

It's the theocratic xians that are against the death penalty. Your posts are sloppy and worthless - at the very least you could spend some time getting your stereotypes in order ffs.
 
[quote name='jputahraptor']Well you can't have it both ways. The people on death row are not there because of self defense, therefore they must have murdered multiple people at the minimum, if not done other violent acts. To be on death row is not an easy thing, and I'm sure there is an abundance of evidence to prove they are, I realize some in prison may be truly innocent but it's not a perfect world, especially when you realize that the victims of crime are almost always innocent to. Look at that family in NY where the husband got away but the wife and I think one of the kids were raped and then the house was burned down while they were still alive. There is no way that can possibly be explained excused or rationalized in any way.

As for the topic, I used to be for the death penalty but as long as those who eligible can never be paroled than they should be made to hard labor for the rest of their lives, not laying in a bed all day.

And I know it's off topic slightly, but nobody made a thread about it, and I'm talking about the pending release of 50K plus prisoners in California. I'm sure that is what California needs right now, 50,000 most people with records on the streets, probably unable to get normal jobs and for good reasons, in the midst of a horrible recession. Wonder how long it will take them before they get arrested again, I'm wonder how much crime they will experience out there?[/QUOTE]

I'm not having it both ways. I simply don't believe in killing people as a solution to a problem.

As for the prisoner release issue, if they released non-violent offenders the impact would be minimal. In fact, families torn apart by the jailing may be reunited.

Which leads me to something I've wanted to put to words for a while. Socons love to wail about the destruction of the family, especially inner city black families without fathers, in relation to the welfare state. If they quit their insane drug crusades and walked away from the police state, many of those fathers wouldn't be taken away from their kids.

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Holy Warrior
 
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