Democrats not really friendly, they all look the same, pretty much all minorities...

[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']They say it's a "few examples" or "life's lottery winners" when there was clearly nothing exceptional about many of the people that started these firms except they had the right idea at the right time with the right way to bring their product, service or idea to market. When those people and teams made it they brought millions of employees along for the ride.[/quote]

No need to cite everything, it's right up there.

My argument is not that it is literally "impossible." It is impossible in the sense that becoming a player in the starting lineup in the New York Yankees is; you stand little to no chance of moving up, *if* you grow up in intense poverty.

If you think that upward mobility is possible, why would you bring up so many examples that, and you *know* this, show the exception, and not the rule? If you want a strictly literal explanation; yes, it is possible. The sheer improbability of it happening, however, renders it moot.

Here's a table from a discrimination study, in which people portrayed themselves as having several characteristics (for controls, to those who know methodology), with only race and absence/presence of a criminal record being that which varied). Her subjects, then, went out looking for jobs.

(Pager, Devah. 2003 American Journal of Sociology, 108:937-975)

Pager.JPG


The results show the probability of being called back, not given a job (as Howard Dean always got wrong when he cited this study). White men with criminal records are given more employment callbacks than black men with no criminal record whatsoever, and an otherwise equal skillset. Two white men with no criminal record will receive a callback for every one black man with no criminal record. This is discrimination, pure and simple. This is by no means the only evidence of it, and to realize its impact on "the free market" and "upward mobility" is absolutely crucial.

myke.
...show me how many blacks move from poverty into middle management positions, and perhaps I'll start to see your argument.
 
Interesting article

As rich-poor gap widens in U.S., class mobility stalls

First in a Series

Friday, May 13, 2005
By David Wessel, The Wall Street Journal

The notion that the U.S is a special place where any child can grow up to be president, a meritocracy where smarts and ambition matter more than parenthood and class, dates to Benjamin Franklin. The 15th child of a candle-and-soap maker, Franklin started out as a penniless printer's apprentice and rose to wealth so great that he retired to a life of politics and diplomacy at age 42.

The promise that a child born in poverty isn't trapped there remains a staple of America's self-portrait. President Bush, though a riches-to-riches story himself, revels in the humble origins of some in his cabinet. He says his attorney general "grew up in a two-bedroom house," the son of "migrant workers who never finished elementary school." He notes that his Cuban-born commerce secretary's first job for Kellogg Corp. was driving a truck; his last was chief executive.

But the reality of mobility in America is more complicated than the myth. As the gap between rich and poor has widened since 1970, the odds that a child born in poverty will climb to wealth -- or a rich child will fall into the middle class -- remain stuck. Despite the spread of affirmative action, the expansion of community colleges and the other social change designed to give people of all classes a shot at success, Americans are no more or less likely to rise above, or fall below, their parents' economic class than they were 35 years ago.

Although Americans still think of their land as a place of exceptional opportunity -- in contrast to class-bound Europe -- the evidence suggests otherwise. And scholars have, over the past decade, come to see America as a less mobile society than they once believed.

As recently as the late 1980s, economists argued that not much advantage passed from parent to child, perhaps as little as 20 percent. By that measure, a rich man's grandchild would have barely any edge over a poor man's grandchild.

"Almost all the earnings advantages or disadvantages of ancestors are wiped out in three generations," wrote Gary Becker, the University of Chicago economist and Nobel laureate, in 1986. "Poverty would not seem to be a 'culture' that persists for several generations."

But over the last 10 years, better data and more number-crunching have led economists and sociologists to a new consensus: The escalators of mobility move much more slowly. A substantial body of research finds that at least 45 percent of parents' advantage in income is passed along to their children, and perhaps as much as 60 percent. With the higher estimate, it's not only how much money your parents have that matters -- even your great-great grandfather's wealth might give you a noticeable edge today.

Many Americans believe their country remains a land of unbounded opportunity. That perception explains why Americans, much more than Europeans, have tolerated the widening inequality in recent years. It is OK to have ever-greater differences between rich and poor, they seem to believe, as long as their children have a good chance of grasping the brass ring.

This continuing belief shapes American politics and economic policy. Technology, globalization and unfettered markets tend to erode wages at the bottom and lift wages at the top. But Americans have elected politicians who oppose using the muscle of government to restrain the forces of widening inequality. These politicians argue that lifting the minimum wage or requiring employers to offer health insurance would do unacceptably large damage to economic growth.

Despite the widespread belief that the U.S. remains a more mobile society than Europe, economists and sociologists say that in recent decades the typical child starting out in poverty in continental Europe (or in Canada) has had a better chance at prosperity. Miles Corak, an economist for Canada's national statistical agency who edited a recent Cambridge University Press book on mobility in Europe and North America, tweaked dozens of studies of the U.S., Canada and European countries to make them comparable. "The U.S. and Britain appear to stand out as the least mobile societies among the rich countries studied," he finds. France and Germany are somewhat more mobile than the U.S.; Canada and the Nordic countries are much more so.

Even the University of Chicago's Prof. Becker is changing his mind, reluctantly. "I do believe that it's still true if you come from a modest background it's easier to move ahead in the U.S. than elsewhere," he says, "but the more data we get that doesn't show that, the more we have to accept the conclusions."

Still, the escalators of social mobility continue to move. Nearly a third of the freshmen at four-year colleges last fall said their parents hadn't gone beyond high school. And thanks to a growing economy that lifts everyone's living standards, the typical American is living with more than his or her parents did. People today enjoy services -- cellphones, cancer treatment, the Internet -- that their parents and grandparents never had.

Measuring precisely how much the prosperity of Americans depends on advantages conferred by their parents is difficult, since it requires linking income data across many decades. U.S. research relies almost entirely on a couple of long-running surveys. One began in 1968 at the University of Michigan and now tracks more than 7,000 families with more than 65,000 individuals; the other was started by the Labor Department in 1966.

One drawback of the surveys is that they don't capture the experiences of recent immigrants or their children, many of whom have seen extraordinary upward mobility. The University of California at Berkeley, for instance, says 52 percent of last year's undergraduates had two parents who weren't born in the U.S., and that's not counting the relatively few students whose families live abroad.

Nonetheless, those two surveys offer the best way to measure the degree to which Americans' economic success or failure depends on their parents. University of Michigan economist Gary Solon, an authority in the field, says one conclusion is clear: "Intergenerational mobility in the U.S. has not changed dramatically over the last two decades."

Bhashkar Mazumder, a Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago economist, recently combined the government survey with Social Security records for thousands of men born between 1963 and 1968 to see what they were earning when they reached their late 20s or 30s. Only-- percent of the men born to fathers on the bottom 10 percent of the wage ladder made it to the top 30 percent. Only 17 percent of the men born to fathers on the top 10 percent fell to the bottom 30 percent.

Benjamin Franklin best exemplified and first publicized America as the land of the mobile society. "He is the prototype of the self-made man, and his life is the classic American success story -- the story of a man rising from the most obscure of origins to wealth and international preeminence," one of his many biographers, Gordon S. Wood, wrote in 2004.

In 1828, a---year-old Irish immigrant named Thomas Mellon read Franklin's popular "Autobiography" and later described it as a turning point in his life. "Here was Franklin, poorer than myself, who by industry, thrift and frugality had become learned and wise, and elevated to wealth and fame," Mellon wrote in a memoir. The young Mellon left the family farm, became a successful lawyer and judge and later founded what became Pittsburgh's Mellon Bank. In front, he erected a statute of Franklin.

Even Karl Marx accepted the image of America as a land of boundless opportunity, citing this as an explanation for the lack of class consciousness in the U.S. "The position of wage laborer," he wrote in 1865, "is for a very large part of the American people but a probational state, which they are sure to leave within a longer or shorter term."

Self-made industrialist Andrew Carnegie, writing in the New York Tribune in 1890, catalogued the "captains of industry" who started as clerks and apprentices and were "trained in that sternest but most efficient of all schools -- poverty."

The historical record suggests this widely shared belief about 19th-century America was more than myth. "You didn't need to be told. You lived it. And if you didn't, your neighbors did," says Joseph Ferrie, an economic historian at Northwestern University, who has combed through the U.S. and British census records that give the occupations of thousands of native-born father-and-son pairs who lived between 1850 and 1920. In all, more than 80 percent of the sons of unskilled men moved to higher-paying, higher-status occupations in the late 1800s in the U.S., but less than 60 percent in Britain did so.

The biggest factor, Mr. Ferrie says, is that young Americans could do something most British couldn't: climb the economic ladder quickly by moving from farm towns to thriving metropolises. In 1850, for instance, James Roberts was a---year-old son of a day laborer living in the western New York hamlet of Catharine. Handwritten census records reveal that 30 years later, Mr. Roberts was a bookkeeper -- a much higher rung -- and living in New York City at 2257 Third Ave. with his wife and four children.

As education became more important in the 20th century -- first high school, later college -- leaping up the ladder began to require something that only better-off parents could afford: allowing their children to stay in school instead of working. "Something quite fundamental changed in the U.S. economy in the years after 1910 and before the Great Depression," says Prof. Ferrie.

One reason that the once-sharp differences between social mobility in the U.S. and Britain narrowed in the 20th century, he argues, is that the regional economies of the U.S. grew more and more similar. It became much harder to leap several rungs of the economic ladder simply by moving.

The paucity of data makes it hard to say how mobility changed for much of the 20th century. Individual census records -- the kind that Prof. Ferrie examines -- are still under seal for most of the 20th century. Data from the two national surveys didn't start rolling in until the 1970s.

Whatever the facts, the Franklin-inspired notion of America as an exceptionally mobile society persisted through most of the 20th century, as living standards improved after World War II and the children and grandchildren of immigrants prospered. Jeremiads in the 1960s and 1970s warned of an intractable culture of poverty that trapped people at the bottom for generations, and African-Americans didn't enjoy the same progress as whites. But among large numbers of Americans, there was little doubt that their children would ride the escalator.

In 1992, though, Mr. Solon, the Michigan economist, shattered the conventional academic wisdom, arguing in the American Economic Review that earlier studies relied on "error-ridden data, unrepresentative samples, or both" and misleadingly compared snapshots of a single year in the life of parent and child rather than looking over longer periods. There is "dramatically less mobility than suggested by earlier research," he said. Subsequent research work confirmed that.

As Mr. Mazumder, the Chicago Fed economist, put it in the title of a recent book chapter: "The apple falls even closer to the tree than we thought."

Why aren't the escalators working better? Figuring out how parents pass along economic status, apart from the obvious but limited factor of financial bequests, is tough. But education appears to play an important role. In contrast to the 1970s, a college diploma is increasingly valuable in today's job market. The tendency of college grads to marry other college grads and send their children to better elementary and high schools and on to college gives their children a lasting edge.

The notion that the offspring of smart, successful people are also smart and successful is appealing, and there is a link between parent and child IQ scores. But most research finds IQ isn't a very big factor in predicting economic success.

In the U.S., race appears to be a significant reason that children's economic success resembles their parents'. From 32 years of data on 6,273 families recorded by the University of Michigan's long-running survey, American University economist Tom Hertz calculates that 17 percent of whites born to the bottom 10 percent of families ranked by income remained there as adults, but 42 percent of the blacks did. Perhaps as a consequence, public-opinion surveys find African-Americans more likely to favor government redistribution programs than whites.

The tendency of well-off parents to have healthier children, or children more likely to get treated for health problems, may also play a role. "There is very powerful evidence that low-income kids suffer from more health problems, and childhood health does predict adult health and adult health does predict performance," observes Christopher Jencks, a noted Harvard sociologist.

Passing along personality traits to one's children may be a factor, too. Economist Melissa Osborne Groves of Maryland's Towson University looked at results of a psychological test for 195 father-son pairs in the government's long-running National Longitudinal Survey. She found similarities in attitudes about life accounted for 11 percent of the link between the income of a father and his son.

Nonetheless, Americans continue to cherish their self-image as a unique land where past and parentage puts no limits on opportunity, as they have for centuries. In his "Autobiography," Franklin wrote simply that he had "emerged from the poverty and obscurity in which I was born and bred to a state of affluence." But in a version that became the standard 19th-century text, his grandson, Temple, altered the words to underscore the enduring message: "I have raised myself to a state of affluence ... "
 
You know the minority thing is a caused by welfare, the destruction of the black family resulting from it and horrible public schools in the inner city. In other words, government has destroyed the black community and hindered their upward mobility, not race itself.

When you have 70-80% illegitimacy rates, you're going to continue to grow up poor and this relates to any race and group, including whites in some areas. When you continue to have sizable percentages of a minority group living in section 8 housing or housing projects, they continue to grow up poor. When you force these kids into schools that are war zones yet teachers unions forbid private vouchers, discourage Magnet schools and charter schools are near impossible to start? You're dooming kids to failure and another generation of government dependency.

The reasons for a lack of upward mobility isn't racist in the sense of "You're black, you can't make it, we won't let you." it's more insidious. It's ingrained generational entitlements; here's your housing, here's your food stamps, here's your check, here's your utility bill(s) paid for. My ex worked non-profits with at risk teenage girls. When they got pregnant? Free money for cribs, clothes, diapers and other baby stuff. Free health care for mom and the kid. When you keep doing that it's a dangerous thing when people just know that money is coming and don't have to do anything to get it.

Let's use an example everyone is aware of for minority betterment yet doesn't stop to think about. West Coast Customs. The owner and staff that run WCC and appear on MTV's "Pimp My Ride", which I'm a huge fan of BTW, are all minorities. How much money do you think those guys were making and how good must their reputation have been to get noticed by MTV and Xzibit? How much do you think they're going to make now licensing their name, images and possibly even franchising as a result of the series? There'restories like this in every minority neighborhood except good news isn't promoted.

Hell, the same thing can be said of other cable shows like Monster Garage and American Chopper. All fist generation of successful small businesses.

For every study you present on why you can't make it racially or the odds are against you I'll be able to show you 40 years of "Great Society" programs that have destroyed black America. When my dad was 20-30 the black community here had the finest restaurants and night clubs in the city. Their movie theaters were some of the most luxurious in the city. The predominantly black neighborhoods had their own tailors, dry cleaners, grocers, appliance stores etc. You introduce concepts and programs from the "Great Society" and they were gone within 15 years. By 1980 the black community was a shell of what it was in the early 1960's here. Now a once properous main drag is full of drugs, prostitition and check cashing outlets.

The root cause of minority upward mobility is not racism anymore but the remedies tried to make them upwardly mobile.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']You know the minority thing is a caused by welfare, the destruction of the black family resulting from it and horrible public schools in the inner city. In other words, government has destroyed the black community and hindered their upward mobility, not race itself.

When you have 70-80% illegitimacy rates, you're going to continue to grow up poor and this relates to any race and group, including whites in some areas. When you continue to have sizable percentages of a minority group living in section 8 housing or housing projects, they continue to grow up poor. When you force these kids into schools that are war zones yet teachers unions forbid private vouchers, discourage Magnet schools and charter schools are near impossible to start? You're dooming kids to failure and another generation of government dependency.

The reasons for a lack of upward mobility isn't racist in the sense of "You're black, you can't make it, we won't let you." it's more insidious. It's ingrained generational entitlements; here's your housing, here's your food stamps, here's your check, here's your utility bill(s) paid for. My ex worked non-profits with at risk teenage girls. When they got pregnant? Free money for cribs, clothes, diapers and other baby stuff. Free health care for mom and the kid. When you keep doing that it's a dangerous thing when people just know that money is coming and don't have to do anything to get it.

Let's use an example everyone is aware of for minority betterment yet doesn't stop to think about. West Coast Customs. The owner and staff that run WCC and appear on MTV's "Pimp My Ride", which I'm a huge fan of BTW, are all minorities. How much money do you think those guys were making and how good must their reputation have been to get noticed by MTV and Xzibit? How much do you think they're going to make now licensing their name, images and possibly even franchising as a result of the series? There'restories like this in every minority neighborhood except good news isn't promoted.

Hell, the same thing can be said of other cable shows like Monster Garage and American Chopper. All fist generation of successful small businesses.

For every study you present on why you can't make it racially or the odds are against you I'll be able to show you 40 years of "Great Society" programs that have destroyed black America. When my dad was 20-30 the black community here had the finest restaurants and night clubs in the city. Their movie theaters were some of the most luxurious in the city. The predominantly black neighborhoods had their own tailors, dry cleaners, grocers, appliance stores etc. You introduce concepts and programs from the "Great Society" and they were gone within 15 years. By 1980 the black community was a shell of what it was in the early 1960's here. Now a once properous main drag is full of drugs, prostitition and check cashing outlets.

The root cause of minority upward mobility is not racism anymore but the remedies tried to make them upwardly mobile.[/QUOTE]

You've shown no proof of that whatsoever; the "great negro society" you speak of is the result of Jim Crow laws and forced segregation. Segregated schools, if we shall continue, helped perpetuate a more poorly educated group of people before there were integrated public schools for you to lay the blame on.

The very fact that you treat welfare as a "black" problem shows that you have no idea what kinds of people are on welfare and for how long. I've got weeding and lawn things to get to; I'll see what I can dig up in a minute.

Y'know, Mayberry did exist at one point in time; a mythical town of family owned small businesses that took care of your every need. The bakers, the cleaners, the family diner, the newsstand, all that shit (and don't forget the soda shoppe/drugstore!). That was not just a phenomenon for blacks neighborhoods (and before you dare tell me about integration, read up on the history of Fair Housing Act enforcement - which was fucking gutted by Robert Byrd - , residential covenants, redlining, and economic incentives to discriminate. I'd recommend starting with William Julius Wilson or John Yinger), but for white neighborhoods as well. Guess what happened? Your Wal-Mart happened, and in consolidating multiple kinds of stores into one, and being able to destroy the competition in terms of price, destroyed the great society you spoke of.

Go here: http://www.acf.dhhs.gov/news/stats/3697.htm

Reagan started with 3.8 million families on welfare; by the end of his term, it was just a smidge lower, at 3.78 million. Oh man, poor Bush! By the end of his term, there were over 5 million families on welfare rolls (that's 14 million people!).

But by the end of Clinton's term, we had 2.1 million people on welfare, just over 5.3 million people. Clinton had roughly 300,000 more *people* on welfare than Bush had *families*.

Anyway, the point is this: Let's consider the change since 1967, the beginning of the civil rights act. 1.2 million families on welfare, 5 million people. By the end of 2001, 34 years later, we had 2.1 million families, and 5.3 million people. Now, the major trend we're seeing is that, and you're right about this PAD, the size of families is declining significantly, and this is mainly the absence of a father. However, considering the population increase since '67, we would expect that the welfare trend might reflect that. Instead, welfare ebbs and flows, like anything else. By the end of 2001, it was only 300,000 more people than 1967, but it was also 8.9 million people fewer than in 1993, under Clinton's first year.

Here's some real bad (I spent like three minutes doing this) analysis of welfare: based on http://www.acf.dhhs.gov/programs/ofa/junefls.txt , welfare spending in 1997 was $17.8 billion (I took the number they gave for 9 months, 13.399, and figured the annual average cost). So, with that number, I divided it by the number of households in the United States (101,000,000) in December 1997 (from: http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005055.html, which cited the Census Bureau - Gawd, have you ever navigated that website?).

So, in the end (drum roll please)...the average household contribution to AFDC is....

$176.24!!!

Is it worth that much of your time, knowing just how much (overall) you contribute to the government every year?

myke.
...give me time, I'll find my stats on getting on and off welfare. In the meantime, the dandelions are laughing at me.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']You know the minority thing is a caused by welfare, the destruction of the black family resulting from it and horrible public schools in the inner city. In other words, government has destroyed the black community and hindered their upward mobility, not race itself.

When you have 70-80% illegitimacy rates, you're going to continue to grow up poor and this relates to any race and group, including whites in some areas. When you continue to have sizable percentages of a minority group living in section 8 housing or housing projects, they continue to grow up poor. When you force these kids into schools that are war zones yet teachers unions forbid private vouchers, discourage Magnet schools and charter schools are near impossible to start? You're dooming kids to failure and another generation of government dependency.

The reasons for a lack of upward mobility isn't racist in the sense of "You're black, you can't make it, we won't let you." it's more insidious. It's ingrained generational entitlements; here's your housing, here's your food stamps, here's your check, here's your utility bill(s) paid for. My ex worked non-profits with at risk teenage girls. When they got pregnant? Free money for cribs, clothes, diapers and other baby stuff. Free health care for mom and the kid. When you keep doing that it's a dangerous thing when people just know that money is coming and don't have to do anything to get it.
[/QUOTE]

I think you make some good points here, especially about the out-of-control teachers union, however I don't think you're taking into account the study that Myke cited, which proves that white ex-cons get more job callbacks then law-abiding black citizens.

Part of the reason may also be that one is less likely to receive an unfounded lawsuit by firing a white guy.
 
Oh, don't forget that over 10.3 million people (3.7 million families) were on AFDC in 1997. by 2001, the number of households had increased by 8 million, and the number of AFDC recipients decreased by almost 50% for people (5.3 million) and a 44% decrease in the number of families. So, most certainly welfare benefits did not increase any significant degree from 1997-2001, so with all that in mind, the amount of struggle you put your brain through over welfare is over what is likely less than $100 per year.

myke.
...back to the yard. Crap.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']This one had me rolling kitten killer. You've been completely discredited for years! Your posts consist entirely of one and two sentence flames and nothing but. Take this post as an example, two one sentence flames.

You're incapable of thought, expressing yourself or debating anything. Are you just too lazy to go beyond two sentences or just so stupid that you believe that you've sufficently "won" everything without even have to try because you "win" by just showing up?

Your entire existence on this board is spam. Why do you think I make fun of you? Because you offer absolutely nothing to conversation. I disagree with EZB, MBE, Camoor, Usisickenme and others but at least they can express thought. You're just a walking talking point without the gift of being able to elaborate why you exist as a talking point.[/QUOTE]

And yet I read quacks posts, and not yours. Hmmmm....
 
I'm not complaining about the amount of money we're paying into welfare. That's not my point at all. The problem is what that money creates, low expectations. That total also does not take into account the monies received from state, county and possibly city programs as well. Again, I'm not talking about what it costs but what it does to people.

You're right about welfare not being black. It most certainly isn't however you brought the conversation around to minorities, that's why I addressed the black community. The problem goes through all racial groups and the main reason, without a doubt, is illegitimacy. Why? Because single parent households are the overwhelming majority of recipients of government relief programs. It doesn't matter if it's AFDC, food stamps, section 8 housing, WIC, numerous state programs to insure children. This is the sum total, if you add up all those programs the benefits can come to $1,000-1,500 a month.

Again, not the cost factor I'm addressing.

What that does though is keep someone in perpetual poverty. You can't ever own anything of value but you'll survive, you'll have groceries, your kids won't die from disease, you'll have a roof and heat. Why did this happen? Illegitimacy and the cycle continues. Nothing is done to address this issue at the root cause. You can't offer to sterilize women anymore, there is next to nothing done about state sponsored birth control, adoption is never presented as a good alternative but abortion is. Meanwhile there are hundreds of thousands of couples that would gladly adopt babies born into these situations that cannot have children.

The cycle is maddening. We'll offer to pay these benefits until the last kid is 18 but we won't pay to send this single mom to trade school, community college and support reasonable day care or make it completely tax deductable. A single mom with a child could get a two year associates degree for about $10,000 at most community colleges including books and lab fees. Care for her child for the 300 days she's in class probably an additional $3-5,000. Eliminate an additional 15 years of complete government support saves $180,000-270,000 in government expenditures for all the services I mentioned.

Yet that program of lifting people out of poverty does not exist. It makes no sense to send people to secondary schools or college cost wise to politicians. Yet they won't dare complain or talk about cutting the programs that keep people in poverty, hell, they're potential voters! It's absoultely disgraceful and both sides and parties are 100% guilty of continuing the perpetual poverty state and robbing people of their dignity and hope.

The whole issue though again doesn't come down to race but illegitimacy and the completely idiotic lack of desire to change the trends and address people trapped in the results of their decisions and mistakes. You can cite welfare statistics and say that they went up as a percentage versus the population as well as in real numbers. I won't disagree with you but the reason why is illegitimacy and poor education.

No one can deny we have both in spades.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Few examples: Microsoft, employs hundreds of thousands here and around the world. Created hundreds of millionaires and a handful of billionaires.

Dell Computer: Created multi-billionaire before he was 30. Employs over 30,000 people. Has forced nearly every major U.S. home PC maker out of business except HP/Compaq. Market value $41 billion.

Martha Stewart Omnimedia: Multi-billion dollar corporation. Responsible for double digit percentages of revenue at K-Mart. TV shows, magazines employ hundreds.

Apple Computer: iPod, employs thousands in the U.S.

Every U.S. gaming company of note; EA, Activision, Take Two, ID, Majesco etc. all started in homes or with small venture capital investments.

TiVo: Changing TV around the world raking in more money from licensing to every manufacturer of satellite and cable tuners.

Scientific Atlanta: Leading cable set top box manufacturer. Started less than 30 years ago.

America Online: Worldwide ISP leader. Started from venture capital. Current Time Warner value $44 billion.

Wal Mart: Also, less than 30 years old in its major growth phase.

Further retailers less than 30 years old making major presences in the American marketplace (May bey older but not in national importance.) Home Depot, Lowes worth $31 billion, Target $48 billion, Best Buy $22.6 billion, Costco worth $43 billion.

Intel $30 billion company, 80% market share of the desktop PC market worldwide.

Viacom $26 billion company, also less than 30 years old as a media player.

FedEx $22.4 billion company, founder got a "B" on his thesis from Harvard Business School that turned out to be the blueprint for his business plan. Largest overnight shipper in the world. Also employs hundreds of thousands worldwide.

AutoNation $19.3 billion, started less than 20 years ago.

Cisco $19.8 billion, almost unparalleled worldwide networking solution provider. Also venture capital funded.

The Gap $15.8 billion, started as a reseller for Levi Strauss, now in nearly every American mall.

Nike, started by Phil Knight selling sneakers he hand made from the back of his car at track meets in the 70's. Now a $10.7 billion company.

Capital One $9.7 billion, started in the 80's by ex-major banking executives with venture capital money. Now one of the largest credit card companies in the U.S.

Oracle, started in the 80's company now valued at $9.4 billion.

Limited Brands $8.9 billion, many mall stores including Victoria's Secret. Started less than 30 years ago.

EMC Corporation, leading RAID provider, founded less than 20 years ago $6.2 billion.

Southwest Airlines, less than 30 years old, $5.9 billion.

Amazon.com $5.2 billion company in less than 10 years. Business plan written on a cross country trip by one guy and funded entirely by his parents and relatives at start up.

That's just some of the now Fortune 500 companies that have gotten that big in the last 10-30 years. Many of them not even 30 years old. Collectively they employ millions directly and indirectly. They made investors rich, bettered our lives and were started in many cases by small groups of people or even individuals.

There are also hundreds of thousands of more people not working in the corporate enviornment of the above companies that are millionaires from their own small businesses that we'll never hear of. Again, this isn't "a few examples" it's upward growth and mobility that creates these new Fortune 500 companies.

I mean where was Pixar 15 years ago? Now they're the hottest animation studio on the planet. Dreamworks? Non existent 10 years ago. LucasFilm/Lucas Arts? Barely 25 years old as a corporate entity. Any rap label of note? Less than 20 years old, all started by individuals as the major record labels 20 years ago didn't "get" rap music.

I can't even begin to guess how many millionaires were made when cellular phone companies existed in each city or a few cities and then gobbled up one after another by every growing players. At one point there were dozens of cell companies in the 80's before the industry consolodated into less than 5 major players. Anyone that was on board early for the cell phone bonanza that had one of the old "A Side" or "B Side" licenses is now a millionaire regardless of which market they operated in.

This goes to show you the overall pessimism of liberals. You can show them countless examples of individuals changing the world, millions more finding their way in this country that started somewhere else or with nothing and they don't understand how it can come to be.

They say it's a "few examples" or "life's lottery winners" when there was clearly nothing exceptional about many of the people that started these firms except they had the right idea at the right time with the right way to bring their product, service or idea to market. When those people and teams made it they brought millions of employees along for the ride.

In 20 more years you'll be able to look at the Fortune 500 list and see at least 15-25 companies that do not exist today. You can't get that big, that fast and displace major companies from that list without major possibilities of upward mobility in the economy and country. It's absolutely impossible.

You trying to refute my post really proves my point. Liberals just don't see it or get it when it comes to how America works.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for providing that textbook example of "a few visible examples".
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']I'm not complaining about the amount of money we're paying into welfare. That's not my point at all. The problem is what that money creates, low expectations. That total also does not take into account the monies received from state, county and possibly city programs as well. Again, I'm not talking about what it costs but what it does to people.

You're right about welfare not being black. It most certainly isn't however you brought the conversation around to minorities, that's why I addressed the black community. The problem goes through all racial groups and the main reason, without a doubt, is illegitimacy. Why? Because single parent households are the overwhelming majority of recipients of government relief programs. It doesn't matter if it's AFDC, food stamps, section 8 housing, WIC, numerous state programs to insure children. This is the sum total, if you add up all those programs the benefits can come to $1,000-1,500 a month.

Again, not the cost factor I'm addressing.

What that does though is keep someone in perpetual poverty. You can't ever own anything of value but you'll survive, you'll have groceries, your kids won't die from disease, you'll have a roof and heat. Why did this happen? Illegitimacy and the cycle continues. Nothing is done to address this issue at the root cause. You can't offer to sterilize women anymore, there is next to nothing done about state sponsored birth control, adoption is never presented as a good alternative but abortion is. Meanwhile there are hundreds of thousands of couples that would gladly adopt babies born into these situations that cannot have children.

The cycle is maddening. We'll offer to pay these benefits until the last kid is 18 but we won't pay to send this single mom to trade school, community college and support reasonable day care or make it completely tax deductable. A single mom with a child could get a two year associates degree for about $10,000 at most community colleges including books and lab fees. Care for her child for the 300 days she's in class probably an additional $3-5,000. Eliminate an additional 15 years of complete government support saves $180,000-270,000 in government expenditures for all the services I mentioned.

Yet that program of lifting people out of poverty does not exist. It makes no sense to send people to secondary schools or college cost wise to politicians. Yet they won't dare complain or talk about cutting the programs that keep people in poverty, hell, they're potential voters! It's absoultely disgraceful and both sides and parties are 100% guilty of continuing the perpetual poverty state and robbing people of their dignity and hope.

The whole issue though again doesn't come down to race but illegitimacy and the completely idiotic lack of desire to change the trends and address people trapped in the results of their decisions and mistakes. You can cite welfare statistics and say that they went up as a percentage versus the population as well as in real numbers. I won't disagree with you but the reason why is illegitimacy and poor education.

No one can deny we have both in spades.[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure what causal order you're getting at here; does welfare dependency cause single parenthood, or does single parenthood cause welfare dependency?

I just don't dig "blame the victim" arguments; we all know that, as a means of gaining employment (and higher wages), men are preferred; this even includes the black men that aren't getting as many job opportunities as white ex-felons.

Poor women are in a very particular sort of catch-22; social expectations on them include the role of parent and primary bread-winner, something that is just too much to ask of many people. Someone who works 40+ hour weeks may be accused of neglecting their children, and someone who spends that much time raising their children may be accused of taking state support for granted, and that they do not want to work. This is a huge problem in our society, and I'd love for policymakers to address it. However, welfare is a horrible issue to address, no thanks in part to Reagan's "welfare queen" myth.

Politicians don't want to touch offering support for advancement to the underclass? Where is your proof of that? People are so disgusted in their abhorrence of welfare that it's political suicide to suggest additional means of support. What kind of politician will get elected in an era of small gov't and low taxes by proclaiming "subsidized schooling for the underclass!" "tax breaks for the poor who put their children in child care!" ad nauseum. I would *love* to see policies such as this, but I simply don't see how any politician could make them palatable to their constituency. I don't see how such policies would turn off their constituency, unless you're erroneously thinking that people don't want policies that help put them in work or in school. There is absolutely zero proof to support the contention that people in poverty love not working, love being on welfare, and wouldn't have it any other way, given the option.

Overall, out society is so invested in the idea of a pure meritocracy that we cannot fathom that people are poor or underpriveleged because of discrimination. We don't want to upset our false sense of meritocracy by passing legislation intended to "even the playing field;" it already is, in most people's minds. Affirmative Action legislation is an attempt to upset that balance, and any of the support policies you suggested earlier can be perceived as "a handout" from the taxpayers. It's just ugly to try to get public support for that kind of thing, you know?

myke.
...so, are we any closer on understanding that upward mobility (at least for the working class and below) is simply a statistical imporbability?
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']Thank you for providing that textbook example of "a few visible examples".[/QUOTE]

Those examples employ millions directly. Those examples employ tens of millions more indirectly through the supply chain and from businesses in the communities where they resdie.

If they represent 10-15 million jobs combined because of their activity what more do you need to see? That's about 1 in 11 jobs in this country! What more do you want???

Good God are you stupid.

This is just the high profile stuff. I can show you the Pittsburgh Technology Council web site, it's members employ probably 30,000 workers in SW PA and none of them are older than 20 years. Every city of note has organizations like that that represent new companies.

Do you not realize that you're looking for failure to refute facts?
 
[quote name='mykevermin']I'm not sure what causal order you're getting at here; does welfare dependency cause single parenthood, or does single parenthood cause welfare dependency?[/quote]

Both. With the lack of education, poor parenting due to hours worked, lack of supervision in the home, poor neighborhoods resulting in poor schools etc. It's a spiral effect.

[quote name='mykevermin']I just don't dig "blame the victim" arguments; we all know that, as a means of gaining employment (and higher wages), men are preferred; this even includes the black men that aren't getting as many job opportunities as white ex-felons. [/quote]

Who do you blame for not using birth control. Who do you blame for getting pregnant without being married. Who do you blame for men fathering kids that can't afford them. There is a responsiblity factor here and no one wants to say anything about it. No one ever wants to claim their mistakes.

[quote name='mykevermin']Politicians don't want to touch offering support for advancement to the underclass? Where is your proof of that? People are so disgusted in their abhorrence of welfare that it's political suicide to suggest additional means of support. What kind of politician will get elected in an era of small gov't and low taxes by proclaiming "subsidized schooling for the underclass!" "tax breaks for the poor who put their children in child care!" ad nauseum. I would *love* to see policies such as this, but I simply don't see how any politician could make them palatable to their constituency. I don't see how such policies would turn off their constituency, unless you're erroneously thinking that people don't want policies that help put them in work or in school. There is absolutely zero proof to support the contention that people in poverty love not working, love being on welfare, and wouldn't have it any other way, given the option. [/quote]

As I said, both parties are poverty pimps. Neither will touch the programs that pay out hundreds of thousands to the same "family" over the course of decades because they'd be accused of "hurting the poor" but then none of them will advance the theory that it's cheaper to school people for 2-4 years than pay for social services for 18+ years.

[quote name='mykevermin']Overall, out society is so invested in the idea of a pure meritocracy that we cannot fathom that people are poor or underpriveleged because of discrimination. We don't want to upset our false sense of meritocracy by passing legislation intended to "even the playing field;" it already is, in most people's minds. Affirmative Action legislation is an attempt to upset that balance, and any of the support policies you suggested earlier can be perceived as "a handout" from the taxpayers. It's just ugly to try to get public support for that kind of thing, you know?[/quote]

It's not discrimination in the sense that it's prejudicial and intentional. It's a systematic problem as in, the system is broken. People aren't discriminated against because they're black, white or Hispanic as far as upward mobility. However generations fall into the government sponsored guaranteed povery trap.

[quote name='mykevermin']...so, are we any closer on understanding that upward mobility (at least for the working class and below) is simply a statistical imporbability?[/QUOTE]

What's working class? My godparents were both teachers, their kids are living in $300k plus homes, both married, both with kids well provided for and college plans that will send them anywhere they want to go. Is that upward mobility? Compared to their parents, absolutely. Both had to go to college on scholarships; athletic or academic.

My brother and I came from a middle class family and my dad worked for U.S. Steel anywhere from the mills up through middle management. My brother and his wife earned in excess of $300,000 last year and both have college degrees. I've made anywhere from $30-100,000 annually which was more than my dad ever made in a year and before I was 30. That's upward mobility isn't it?

I can count dozens more people I went to school with and my brother and his wife went to school with that were first generations to go to college. Every single one of them moved upwards. I'm not even in a high growth section of the country and see this.

Are you going to tell me my examples are just more "rare examples"? I see this all the time. Hell, my family doctor was Pakistani and just off the boat/plane.

You can twist statistics any which way; lies, lies and statistics is the saying? What I see with my own eyes with the people that have come in and out of my life mean more to me than statistics. The one thing all of them have in common though were simple; they didn't come from single parent households and they weren't born illegitimate.

Until you're going to address that issue you're never going to change the statistical samples you're mining.
 
Who cares what Howard Dean says.

He leads a party that is one election away from total irrelevance.

CTL
 
[quote name='mykevermin']myke.
...still waiting for PAD or someone to tell me what Dean said that was incorrect.[/QUOTE]

I can easily refute one point.

The fact that he said Republicans aren't nice to other people. Are you kidding me??? How asinine is it to make a generalization like that? I almost don't want to dignify that statement with a response.

If you can't agree that the statement is false, then you need to remove your donkey-colored glasses.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Those examples employ millions directly. Those examples employ tens of millions more indirectly through the supply chain and from businesses in the communities where they resdie.

If they represent 10-15 million jobs combined because of their activity what more do you need to see? That's about 1 in 11 jobs in this country! What more do you want???

Good God are you stupid.

This is just the high profile stuff. I can show you the Pittsburgh Technology Council web site, it's members employ probably 30,000 workers in SW PA and none of them are older than 20 years. Every city of note has organizations like that that represent new companies.

Do you not realize that you're looking for failure to refute facts?[/QUOTE]

Jobs do not indicate upward mobility (hell, almost a quarter of homeless people are employed), or relatively equal chances of upward mobility across ethnic backgrounds. Imagine how many people mcdonalds and walmart employ, then imagine how many of them will be rising in economic class.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Both. With the lack of education, poor parenting due to hours worked, lack of supervision in the home, poor neighborhoods resulting in poor schools etc. It's a spiral effect.[/quote]

Are you familiar with logical tautologies?



Who do you blame for not using birth control. Who do you blame for getting pregnant without being married. Who do you blame for men fathering kids that can't afford them. There is a responsiblity factor here and no one wants to say anything about it. No one ever wants to claim their mistakes.

Y'know the saying that everyone has a great book in them? I consider mine to be a book about how, in modern American culture, fucking nobody claims any mistakes whatsoever, regardless of race, class, or status. I believe someone wrote that book already, but attributed the beginning to Clinton. I think it goes much deeper than that. Oh, anyway, back to topic. Yes, I do agree that, even the statistics show the basic family unit has fallen apart; however, consider how underemployed poor men are (they wouldn't be poor if they were employed, right?). Who wants to marry someone who isn't "going anywhere?" They aren't marriagable, or "bon-a-fide" to use the Coen brothers' parlance.

This does not excuse the number of chilren being born unwanted or unloved; the number of children being born with one parent, etc. I blame those people, and I blame the politicians who are stupid enough to think they can legislatively prevent people from fucking. I blame the politicians who want to prevent sex education from being taught, and from safe sex being a part of our collective culture. Once we recognize that people are going to fuck, as they have throughout history, then we can begin to deal with the problem in a way that reduces unwanted children, for instance.


As I said, both parties are poverty pimps. Neither will touch the programs that pay out hundreds of thousands to the same "family" over the course of decades because they'd be accused of "hurting the poor" but then none of them will advance the theory that it's cheaper to school people for 2-4 years than pay for social services for 18+ years.

Seems that we agree on the general skittishness of the parties, but differ on how we view the motivations. You seem to think that they view the poor as a viable constituency, while I think that they don't want to commit political suicide by offering to help the poor out. Tomato, to-mah-to.

It's not discrimination in the sense that it's prejudicial and intentional. It's a systematic problem as in, the system is broken. People aren't discriminated against because they're black, white or Hispanic as far as upward mobility. However generations fall into the government sponsored guaranteed povery trap.

Because of the *stereotype* that minorities, black in particular, are less reliable, don't want to work, lack people skills, can't speak english, etc. It may not be intentional in the sense that it represents the discriminators' personal views, or that they're even conscious of it. Despite that, it is unarguable that it is racist, discriminatory, and stereotyped.

What you suggested in the quote above is the "structural" argument for poverty, that the system kept certain people out of legitimate opportunities to make something of themselves. Prior to the civil rights act, this was certainly the case with blacks. This is a competing explanation to the culture of poverty argument, which you've been arguing all along. It's not hypocrticial to use both, but it is a bit inconsistent.

What's working class? My godparents were both teachers, their kids are living in $300k plus homes, both married, both with kids well provided for and college plans that will send them anywhere they want to go. Is that upward mobility? Compared to their parents, absolutely. Both had to go to college on scholarships; athletic or academic.

My brother and I came from a middle class family and my dad worked for U.S. Steel anywhere from the mills up through middle management. My brother and his wife earned in excess of $300,000 last year and both have college degrees. I've made anywhere from $30-100,000 annually which was more than my dad ever made in a year and before I was 30. That's upward mobility isn't it?

I can count dozens more people I went to school with and my brother and his wife went to school with that were first generations to go to college. Every single one of them moved upwards. I'm not even in a high growth section of the country and see this.

Are you going to tell me my examples are just more "rare examples"? I see this all the time. Hell, my family doctor was Pakistani and just off the boat/plane.

You can twist statistics any which way; lies, lies and statistics is the saying? What I see with my own eyes with the people that have come in and out of my life mean more to me than statistics. The one thing all of them have in common though were simple; they didn't come from single parent households and they weren't born illegitimate.

Until you're going to address that issue you're never going to change the statistical samples you're mining.

That Pakistani came off the boat a doctor, did he not?

It's "lies, damn lies, and statistics." I just happen to be a "quantitative researcher," so I do my work in stats. I
 
This is what I have to say about the working poor:

Danny: "I was hoping to go to college but unfortunately it looks like my parents aren't going to be able to afford to send me"

Judge Smails: "Well, the world needs ditch diggers too"

OR

Spaulding: "I want a hamburger, no a cheeseburger, I want french fries..."

Judge Smails: "YOU'LL GET NOTHING AND LIKE IT!!!"
 
[quote name='Derwood43']I can easily refute one point.

The fact that he said Republicans aren't nice to other people. Are you kidding me??? How asinine is it to make a generalization like that? I almost don't want to dignify that statement with a response.

If you can't agree that the statement is false, then you need to remove your donkey-colored glasses.[/QUOTE]

Of course Republicans aren't mean.

Nobody ever supported benign neglect with malicious intent.

myke.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Who do you blame for not using birth control.[/QUOTE]

Absitinence-only sex education / sex health programs forced down this nation's throat by rich white Christians.
 
You know another thing about minimum wage jobs, I couldn't find one if I tried. Every fast food place is advertising starting wages at $7 an hour and $9 an hour for closers. Wal Mart here is starting at $8 with benefits after 90 days.

Yeah, I know, 8 hour days at $8 bucks an hour is $64 a day and $320 a week. Nothing glamorours to be sure however after 6 months most Wal Mart associates here are making $11-12 an hour with medical benefits, profit sharing/stock purchase options, 401k. That's $88 a day, $440 a week and $22,000 annually for practically unskilled labor. Husband or wife working that with the other in a decent job making $30-35k, which is pretty middle of the road for any kind of skill and you're talking about families that can make $50-60k without a college education.

Just curious, if I start my own business from scratch, work 50-70 hour weeks and end up grossing $200k annually after expenses am I still working class? Take into account that unless I structure that money as dividends or capital gains and treat it as earned income I'll be paying 12.4% in SSI, 3% to Pennsylvania and will have a marginal tax rate of 37% which combined gives me an effective taxation rate of 52.4%. Have I become "rich" and need to pay for winning life's lottery or having benefitted unfairly for recognizing a market niche before anyone else? At that point the arguments about upbrining and social distinctions are moot and you're back to the one thing government does to limit upward mobility, taxes.

The government didn't do one thing to earn 52.4% of a self employed persons income. Yet they take it. You want to know why people cant get ahead? There you go.
 
[quote name='camoor']Absitinence-only sex education / sex health programs forced down this nation's throat by rich white Christians.[/QUOTE]

Yes, of course, we all know that local school boards that decide cirriculum in inner cities are controlled by rich white Christians. [/sarcasm]

Do you even know who sets the cirriculum of individual schools or do you just naturally assume it's Pat Robertson and the 700 Club.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']
Just curious, if I start my own business from scratch, work 50-70 hour weeks and end up grossing $200k annually after expenses am I still working class? Take into account that unless I structure that money as dividends or capital gains and treat it as earned income I'll be paying 12.4% in SSI, 3% to Pennsylvania and will have a marginal tax rate of 37% which combined gives me an effective taxation rate of 52.4%. Have I become "rich" and need to pay for winning life's lottery or having benefitted unfairly for recognizing a market niche before anyone else? At that point the arguments about upbrining and social distinctions are moot and you're back to the one thing government does to limit upward mobility, taxes.

The government didn't do one thing to earn 52.4% of a self employed persons income. Yet they take it. You want to know why people cant get ahead? There you go.[/QUOTE]


Your math is way off as is your definition of effective tax rate. You wouldn't be paying 37% on your entire income just income over 150k. Your effective tax rate would actually be around 30%. Furthermore, you would beneift from deducting your losses from starting a business or at least the average deduction of 25k for that income group.

I have never heard of anyone not wanting to make more money because of taxes. Because everyone pays the same tax rate on the same amount of money. It's a progressive tax...look it up. Mariginal taxe rates actually have little influence on output because

1.)People in conventional regular jobs do not have total control over how many hours they work or their income.
2.)People in entrepreneurial pursuits often have far less predictability of income


as far as the gov't not doing anything to earn it's money...well that's just stupid. They provide a reasonably safe society in which to conduct business, they provide the infrastructure on which to conduct your business, they help subsidize either the cost of your business or items used for your business, they may provide paychecks for your customers. There are really countless things. Now, not everything may be of value to you (and there is certainly waste) but to say they do nothing is asinine.
 
You fail to take into account that self employed people are responsible for both the employers and individual contributions which, when combined, are 12.4%. I did neglect to mention and it slipped my mind that you stop paying that at $90,000.

State income tax is still on every dollar earned.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']You fail to take into account that self employed people are responsible for both the employers and individual contributions which, when combined, are 12.4%. I did neglect to mention and it slipped my mind that you stop paying that at $90,000.

State income tax is still on every dollar earned.[/QUOTE]

nope..my wife is self employed and we know quite well about the 12.4 tax. I meant that your effective federal income tax is around 30% (a sort of average of all of the marginal tax rates one progresses through) +FICA 5.6% (for 200k) + State of 3%

so 30 + 5.6 + 3
38.6%. and that is not including deductions.

So your example is not quite as extreme as you make it out to be

for fun let's take the avg. 200k deduction of 25k which lowers your taxable income to 175k

175k(.30) / 200k= Fed tax rate = 26.3%
FICA remains at 5.6%
175k(.03)/200k = State tax rate of 2.6

=34.5%

That is where you need to start the discussion!
 
Who do you blame for not using birth control.

You do understand that the Chrisitian Right (whom you are aligned with) is hellbent against birth control and teaching proper use etc.?

we all know that local school boards that decide cirriculum in inner cities are controlled by rich white Christians.

You honestly believe the only problems with illegitimate births are in inner cities (which is GOP code concerning blacks) and not in red states?
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']You know another thing about minimum wage jobs, I couldn't find one if I tried. Every fast food place is advertising starting wages at $7 an hour and $9 an hour for closers. Wal Mart here is starting at $8 with benefits after 90 days.

Yeah, I know, 8 hour days at $8 bucks an hour is $64 a day and $320 a week. Nothing glamorours to be sure however after 6 months most Wal Mart associates here are making $11-12 an hour with medical benefits, profit sharing/stock purchase options, 401k. That's $88 a day, $440 a week and $22,000 annually for practically unskilled labor. Husband or wife working that with the other in a decent job making $30-35k, which is pretty middle of the road for any kind of skill and you're talking about families that can make $50-60k without a college education.

Just curious, if I start my own business from scratch, work 50-70 hour weeks and end up grossing $200k annually after expenses am I still working class? Take into account that unless I structure that money as dividends or capital gains and treat it as earned income I'll be paying 12.4% in SSI, 3% to Pennsylvania and will have a marginal tax rate of 37% which combined gives me an effective taxation rate of 52.4%. Have I become "rich" and need to pay for winning life's lottery or having benefitted unfairly for recognizing a market niche before anyone else? At that point the arguments about upbrining and social distinctions are moot and you're back to the one thing government does to limit upward mobility, taxes.

The government didn't do one thing to earn 52.4% of a self employed persons income. Yet they take it. You want to know why people cant get ahead? There you go.[/QUOTE]

I've begun making this argument; if you don't like the tax structure, and you feel that it unfairly targets people making a certain income, shut up and go find a job where you won't earn enough money to pay substantial income tax. I'm not kidding, either.

Righties are known for this argument: Taxes on the rich punish success. I'm sure many agree with that, but such a statement should never be presented without its corollary: if you're don't tax the wealthy, you're going to be taxing the poor. If you don't "punish success," you're "punishing failure." So this often-used argument is a cordially encoded way of saying that the wealthy believe they should be supported by the poor.

regarding you $8 an hour job, I believe I mentioned that demand for employment in extremely poor areas often leads to low wages. Wal-Mart doesn't need to pay you $8 an hour when 7 other people want the very job you have. Look in the rural areas, look in the ghetto areas. You are not going to find people (except perhaps management) making that kind of money. Near college campuses, on the other hand, there is less competition for those kinds of jobs. Based on the variables of a perticular ecological area, you're going to get a wide spread of wages. Oh, and few Wal-Mart employees work full-time or more, so stop *that* dialogue already.

myke.
 
[quote name='E-Z-B']Although I don't have a source handy, I remember hearing that teen pregnancy and divorce are much higher in the bible belt states, and much lower in the blue states (i.e., the Northeast).[/quote]

Is that a rate of births per thousand teens?
 
[quote name='Msut77']Who do you blame for not using birth control.

You do understand that the Chrisitian Right (whom you are aligned with) is hellbent against birth control and teaching proper use etc.?

we all know that local school boards that decide cirriculum in inner cities are controlled by rich white Christians.

You honestly believe the only problems with illegitimate births are in inner cities (which is GOP code concerning blacks) and not in red states?[/QUOTE]

First, I am not aligned with the Christian right. I am not a member, contributor or participant in Christian right organizations of any kind. I don't vote for "approved" candidates, write letters or send emails from "alerts" distributed by any group. Those groups also include other right wing grass roots organizations from the NRA to groups opposed to abortion. I don't believe in "group" politics.

You really think, I mean seriously think, that the Los Angeles, New York, Detroit or Philadelphia school boards are controlled by rich white Christians? Wow, and I thought Howard Dean sounded like a fool.

I never limited illegitimacy to inner cities. It occurs everywhere and doesn't discriminate by group status. Go back and read where I made that distinction. However the discussion was specifically aimed by mykevermin at how if you were a minority the odds of rising economically were prohibitive. Now when you're addressing minority issues, you are typically talking about urban households. There were no GOP "codewords" necessary. We were talking about blacks and hispanics in the first place.

Way to read what you want to read and arrive baying like a jackass right out of the gate. Your stupidity is duly noted in an otherwise objective thread by all sides concerned and probably the most civilized discussion we've had in ages.

EZB teen pregnancy rates and illegitimacy rates are not one in the same. Sure an overwhelming percentage of teenage births are illegitimate but they aren't the entire source of the problem. There are women of any age having babies out of wedlock and the overwhelming majority of them are not planned. When you're dating in your late 20's you'll be absolutely shocked at the percentages of women that age that are single moms with 2-5 year olds.

Let's try to keep this on the track we were going and not have it devolve into a tax discussion. Needless to say some of my numbers were inaccurate and I admit it. However it has been proposed to tax all income for SSI purposes.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Yes, of course, we all know that local school boards that decide cirriculum in inner cities are controlled by rich white Christians. [/sarcasm]

Do you even know who sets the cirriculum of individual schools or do you just naturally assume it's Pat Robertson and the 700 Club.[/QUOTE]

The Christian Coalition has been going after more local seats for a long time now.

"We tried to change Washington," says Christian Coalition executive director Ralph Reed, contemplating the end of their Washington clout in 1988. "We should have been focusing on the states. The real battles of concern to Christians are in neighborhoods, school boards, city councils, and state legislatures."

Another quote:

Former Christian Coalition director Ralph Reed used to say that he would rather elect 1,000 school board members than a single president because the future of America will be determined by the principal's office, not the Oval Office.
 
Don't know about the other cities, but Philadelphia schools are run by Edison Schools. From the news reports I see from them, it's always some old, white, bald guy talking for them.
 
The National Center for Health Statistics has just released its report, "Births: Final Data for 1998," which contained this unhappy finding: "The number of births to unmarried women rose 3 percent to 1,293,567, the highest number ever reported." That means that one birth in three is now out of wedlock.

The report also found that illegitimate-birth rates "vary considerably by race and Hispanic origin." The percentage of out-of-wedlock births for non-Hispanic whites is 21.9 percent, but for non-Hispanic blacks it's 69.3 percent. For Hispanics it's 41.6 percent, and for American Indians 59.3 percent. For Asians and Pacific Islanders overall the number is 15.6 percent, but this varies from 51.1 percent for Hawaiians to 6.4 percent and 9.7 percent for Chinese and Japanese Americans, respectively.

All of this is consistent with other recent data. Forty-five percent of black women managers or professionals have had an illegitimate child, compared to 3 percent of managerial or professional whites. Half of all births in New York City are illegitimate, and in some neighborhoods the proportion reaches 80 percent. A 1997 survey by the federal government found that the percentage of black high-school students who said they have had sex was 73 percent, versus 44 percent for whites and 52 percent for Hispanics.

Link

Teen-age fertility (ages 15-19) dropped by 10 percent from 1991-96, while the decrease for the total population was only 5 percent. White teen birthrates decreased 7 percent--and black teen birthrates by 20 percent.

That's important. These days, catastrophically, about three-quarters of teen-age births are illegitimate. But among women over 20, the illegitimacy ratio is 25 percent. There is also a big racial difference in illegitimacy: 25 percent for white teen-agers, 70 percent for blacks.


NOTE: Hence a small but not insignificant portion of teenage births are legitimate.

Teen-agers comprise a very small proportion of the population. Women are considered statistically fertile for the 29 years from 15-44. During the four years (age 15-19) that teen-agers are statistically fertile, they bear 13 percent of the babies. So, when the teen-age fertility falls, it has only a limited effect on the ratio.
Link
 
[quote name='MrBadExample']The Christian Coalition has been going after more local seats for a long time now.[/QUOTE]

That article has some hilarious moments (Christians linking science and evolution to Hitler), but when I think of how the innocents may suffer at the hands of their warped agenda it makes me shudder. Thx for the good read.
 
You know, when I see stuff like that I shudder. Both sides should never use references and similies to Nazis and Hitler. Anyone that does so in the context of American political discussion should lose credibility immediately at the first mention of Uncle 'Dolph.

No, that's not a term of endearment. Just like I call Stalin Uncle Joe in jest of what Chruchill called him.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']You know, when I see stuff like that I shudder. Both sides should never use references and similies to Nazis and Hitler. Anyone that does so in the context of American political discussion should lose credibility immediately at the first mention of Uncle 'Dolph.

No, that's not a term of endearment. Just like I call Stalin Uncle Joe in jest of what Chruchill called him.[/QUOTE]

Hear hear.

myke.
...dig the sig, PAD; where the empty Mellon Arena?
 
I am not aligned with the Christian right

You are an ardent Bush voter, with him you get the Xtian right.

BTW YOU were the one who focused exclusively on inner cities.
 
Anyone have any statistics on single parent families (not just unmarried)? I have 9 relatives under 15 in 2 parent unmarried families, one mother has 3 kids and isn't married but has a live in, long term boyfriend (one going on 10 years). If you got two parents , then being technically "illegitimate" isn't important.
 
bread's done
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