I received an email today on the subject and it got me to thinking. I know that the financial benefit has been shrinking lately, it isn't quite the pay off it used to be. Still though, for the most part a higher education still means higher pay in one's career according to the data I've seen. I do wonder though, whenever someone talks about this they're usually talking as a whole, but we all know that different degrees have differing levels of job prospects. A degree in philosophy isn't as likely to help one find work as much as a degree in engineering or other sciences might. So I'd actually like to see data broken down by major, rather than taken as a whiole, but I've never see any. I think that may lead some people to think all they need is a degree in anything and they'll be set.
Does a college degree still pay off financially?
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soulvengeance
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[quote name='Clak']I received an email today on the subject and it got me to thinking. I know that the financial benefit has been shrinking lately, it isn't quite the pay off it used to be. Still though, for the most part a higher education still means higher pay in one's career according to the data I've seen. I do wonder though, whenever someone talks about this they're usually talking as a whole, but we all know that different degrees have differing levels of job prospects. A degree in philosophy isn't as likely to help one find work as much as a degree in engineering or other sciences might. So I'd actually like to see data broken down by major, rather than taken as a whiole, but I've never see any. I think that may lead some people to think all they need is a degree in anything and they'll be set.[/QUOTE]
I've always thought the purpose of a college education is to educate, how you make money with it is up to you. I think there is info out there on how much each degree makes on average, but I think it's mainly broken up by social degrees and engineering degrees.
I've always thought the purpose of a college education is to educate, how you make money with it is up to you. I think there is info out there on how much each degree makes on average, but I think it's mainly broken up by social degrees and engineering degrees.
[quote name='Clak']I received an email today on the subject and it got me to thinking. I know that the financial benefit has been shrinking lately, it isn't quite the pay off it used to be. Still though, for the most part a higher education still means higher pay in one's career according to the data I've seen. I do wonder though, whenever someone talks about this they're usually talking as a whole, but we all know that different degrees have differing levels of job prospects. A degree in philosophy isn't as likely to help one find work as much as a degree in engineering or other sciences might. So I'd actually like to see data broken down by major, rather than taken as a whiole, but I've never see any. I think that may lead some people to think all they need is a degree in anything and they'll be set.[/QUOTE]
This is one of the toughest questions facing our society today. For nearly a century folks have operated under the assumption that a college degree pays for itself. Today however, the value of a college degree is totally dependent on where you live and what skills the degree provides you with.
This is one of the toughest questions facing our society today. For nearly a century folks have operated under the assumption that a college degree pays for itself. Today however, the value of a college degree is totally dependent on where you live and what skills the degree provides you with.
If you know what you want to do and you plan on doing something specialized or plan on going into a field that requires a degree then yes, a degree is 100% essential.
However I know a lot of people who spend a lot of time and money going to college just because it was expected of them, and the entire time they were in school they had no idea what they wanted to do (many still don't) and they end up finding jobs that they could have gotten without a degree or worked their way up to in less then four years and been able to forgo incurring massive amounts of debt.
You have to remember that colleges and universities are HUGE money makers... if they weren't profitable we would have thousands of them.
However I know a lot of people who spend a lot of time and money going to college just because it was expected of them, and the entire time they were in school they had no idea what they wanted to do (many still don't) and they end up finding jobs that they could have gotten without a degree or worked their way up to in less then four years and been able to forgo incurring massive amounts of debt.
You have to remember that colleges and universities are HUGE money makers... if they weren't profitable we would have thousands of them.
speedracer
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This has exactly what you're looking for.
If I was starting today, I would be a Pharmacist. Six years of school instead of eight, $100k median right out of the gate, and undergrad requirements don't include a bunch of bullshit. I'll never forgive my business degree for making me spend $1k on a
ing economics of the 18th century class.
Also interesting:
Figure Out Which Graduate Degrees Are Worth the Debt with the One-Year Salary Rule
Are vocational degrees a better path to employment? In the short run.
Research Desk: Just How Good Have College Grads Got It?
Where is the Best Place to Invest $102,000 -- In Stocks, Bonds, or a College Degree?
If I was starting today, I would be a Pharmacist. Six years of school instead of eight, $100k median right out of the gate, and undergrad requirements don't include a bunch of bullshit. I'll never forgive my business degree for making me spend $1k on a
ing economics of the 18th century class. Also interesting:
Figure Out Which Graduate Degrees Are Worth the Debt with the One-Year Salary Rule
Are vocational degrees a better path to employment? In the short run.
Research Desk: Just How Good Have College Grads Got It?
Where is the Best Place to Invest $102,000 -- In Stocks, Bonds, or a College Degree?
perdition(troy
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yes, just don't go for something stupid. obviously a nursing/accounting degree with 30k in debt is going to be a better option then a philosophy/japanese history degree with 30k in debt.
[quote name='speedracer']This has exactly what you're looking for.
If I was starting today, I would be a Pharmacist. Six years of school instead of eight, $100k median right out of the gate, and undergrad requirements don't include a bunch of bullshit. I'll never forgive my business degree for making me spend $1k on aing economics of the 18th century class.
Also interesting:
Figure Out Which Graduate Degrees Are Worth the Debt with the One-Year Salary Rule
Are vocational degrees a better path to employment? In the short run.
Research Desk: Just How Good Have College Grads Got It?
Where is the Best Place to Invest $102,000 -- In Stocks, Bonds, or a College Degree?[/QUOTE]That lists salary for the varying degrees, but it doesn't take into account the ease at which any of those graduates were able to find work though.
If I was starting today, I would be a Pharmacist. Six years of school instead of eight, $100k median right out of the gate, and undergrad requirements don't include a bunch of bullshit. I'll never forgive my business degree for making me spend $1k on a
ing economics of the 18th century class. Also interesting:
Figure Out Which Graduate Degrees Are Worth the Debt with the One-Year Salary Rule
Are vocational degrees a better path to employment? In the short run.
Research Desk: Just How Good Have College Grads Got It?
Where is the Best Place to Invest $102,000 -- In Stocks, Bonds, or a College Degree?[/QUOTE]That lists salary for the varying degrees, but it doesn't take into account the ease at which any of those graduates were able to find work though.
Trancendental
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[quote name='perdition(troy']yes, just don't go for something stupid. obviously a nursing/accounting degree with 30k in debt is going to be a better option then a philosophy/japanese history degree with 30k in debt.[/QUOTE]
There is a samurai joke in there somewhere...
There is a samurai joke in there somewhere...
[quote name='Clak']That lists salary for the varying degrees, but it doesn't take into account the ease at which any of those graduates were able to find work though.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. The employment and starting salary numbers are greatly inflated by universities to increase attendance numbers. So any data out there will be flawed. Plus, there is no way to account for the regional job markets in a given field.
Agreed. The employment and starting salary numbers are greatly inflated by universities to increase attendance numbers. So any data out there will be flawed. Plus, there is no way to account for the regional job markets in a given field.
Soodmeg
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I love this topic. I love listening to the different view points on this.
Recently a Law School was forced into including how many of its grads have full time work in the field of study above with advancement past entry level after 5 years.They also have to report what the starting salary the grads were. Those 95% placement numbers went down the toilet really quick when it was found out that half their grads barely made above minimal wage.
That is something that most college do not have to provide. So remember that when looking at the numbers they give out to attract high schoolers.
Also, I think the age old saying of "dont go for something stupid," doesnt apply anymore. I know tons of U of Michigan Engineering Grads who work at gas stations, I know teachers who cant find jobs, I know firefighters, EMTs, Police Officers who cant find anything, and of course the people who have degrees and dont even work in area of study.
I think the discussion of college is as one sided as the discussion of how babies are made. As a society we are programmed to just gloss over many of the real aspects of both subjects. When you are going to college people just say its great...no one really sits a person down and explain to them how risky it is.
I think the line is getting closer and closer to it being better to just get a crap job out of high school busting your ass at a place you are interested in and work your way up. For example, 2 of my friends wanted to become business mangers. One went to college to get a business degree the other just started working at Circuit City. After 8ish years the one worked his way up from cashier to store manger and when City closed he was recommend for manger of Lowes. He makes about 110k a year. The other one after graduating for business school and doing his internship he is about 50k in debt and manages a dollar tree for 15 bucks and hour. He is stuck in a black hole because he constantly defaults on his loans because doesnt make enough and cant seem to land a real job because its just not out there. No one wants to hire a fresh out of college kid to manage a billion dollar company yet no one told him that when they were cashing his checks from the college.
Because of the economy you have older people taking entry level jobs, way hire a fresh out of school kid when you could hire a person who has been doing it for 10-15 years for the same pay?
Recently a Law School was forced into including how many of its grads have full time work in the field of study above with advancement past entry level after 5 years.They also have to report what the starting salary the grads were. Those 95% placement numbers went down the toilet really quick when it was found out that half their grads barely made above minimal wage.
That is something that most college do not have to provide. So remember that when looking at the numbers they give out to attract high schoolers.
Also, I think the age old saying of "dont go for something stupid," doesnt apply anymore. I know tons of U of Michigan Engineering Grads who work at gas stations, I know teachers who cant find jobs, I know firefighters, EMTs, Police Officers who cant find anything, and of course the people who have degrees and dont even work in area of study.
I think the discussion of college is as one sided as the discussion of how babies are made. As a society we are programmed to just gloss over many of the real aspects of both subjects. When you are going to college people just say its great...no one really sits a person down and explain to them how risky it is.
I think the line is getting closer and closer to it being better to just get a crap job out of high school busting your ass at a place you are interested in and work your way up. For example, 2 of my friends wanted to become business mangers. One went to college to get a business degree the other just started working at Circuit City. After 8ish years the one worked his way up from cashier to store manger and when City closed he was recommend for manger of Lowes. He makes about 110k a year. The other one after graduating for business school and doing his internship he is about 50k in debt and manages a dollar tree for 15 bucks and hour. He is stuck in a black hole because he constantly defaults on his loans because doesnt make enough and cant seem to land a real job because its just not out there. No one wants to hire a fresh out of college kid to manage a billion dollar company yet no one told him that when they were cashing his checks from the college.
Because of the economy you have older people taking entry level jobs, way hire a fresh out of school kid when you could hire a person who has been doing it for 10-15 years for the same pay?
Yes, on average studies still find higher average salaries and lifetime salary ceilings for people with degrees than without. And the unemployment rate throughout the recession for college grads has stayed around half what the rate was for people with just a high school diploma.
I imagine some of that is the in the links speedracer posted.
As troy noted, it does depend what you do. If you take out debt to get a degree in philosophy or something, then its probably not going to pay off unless you want to go through the terminal degree and work in academia. And even then you have to pick a field that has a decent job market (either an expanding field, or one with lots of older profs who'll be retiring etc.).
That said, nothing is a sure thing, as job markets can change a lot over the 4+ years it takes to finish your degree(s). So there's always some risk involved. So people should never take more loans than they have to. Study hard from high school and and go for scholarships. Work part time to pay living expenses. Maybe do a few years in the military to get earn some money to go to college (both in salary and the GI bill stuff etc.) if you have no money and so-so grades that make it hard to get scholarships.
I imagine some of that is the in the links speedracer posted.
As troy noted, it does depend what you do. If you take out debt to get a degree in philosophy or something, then its probably not going to pay off unless you want to go through the terminal degree and work in academia. And even then you have to pick a field that has a decent job market (either an expanding field, or one with lots of older profs who'll be retiring etc.).
That said, nothing is a sure thing, as job markets can change a lot over the 4+ years it takes to finish your degree(s). So there's always some risk involved. So people should never take more loans than they have to. Study hard from high school and and go for scholarships. Work part time to pay living expenses. Maybe do a few years in the military to get earn some money to go to college (both in salary and the GI bill stuff etc.) if you have no money and so-so grades that make it hard to get scholarships.
[quote name='Soodmeg']I love this topic. I love listening to the different view points on this.
Recently a Law School was forced into including how many of its grads have full time work in the field of study above with advancement past entry level after 5 years.They also have to report what the starting salary the grads were. Those 95% placement numbers went down the toilet really quick when it was found out that half their grads barely made above minimal wage.
That is something that most college do not have to provide. So remember that when looking at the numbers they give out to attract high schoolers.
Also, I think the age old saying of "dont go for something stupid," doesnt apply anymore. I know tons of U of Michigan Engineering Grads who work at gas stations, I know teachers who cant find jobs, I know firefighters, EMTs, Police Officers who cant find anything, and of course the people who have degrees and dont even work in area of study.
I think the discussion of college is as one sided as the discussion of how babies are made. As a society we are programmed to just gloss over many of the real aspects of both subjects. When you are going to college people just say its great...no one really sits a person down and explain to them how risky it is.
I think the line is getting closer and closer to it being better to just get a crap job out of high school busting your ass at a place you are interested in and work your way up. For example, 2 of my friends wanted to become business mangers. One went to college to get a business degree the other just started working at Circuit City. After 8ish years the one worked his way up from cashier to store manger and when City closed he was recommend for manger of Lowes. He makes about 110k a year. The other one after graduating for business school and doing his internship he is about 50k in debt and manages a dollar tree for 15 bucks and hour. He is stuck in a black hole because he constantly defaults on his loans because doesnt make enough and cant seem to land a real job because its just not out there. No one wants to hire a fresh out of college kid to manage a billion dollar company yet no one told him that when they were cashing his checks from the college.
Because of the economy you have older people taking entry level jobs, way hire a fresh out of school kid when you could hire a person who has been doing it for 10-15 years for the same pay?[/QUOTE]
I don't think anyone really expects that anyone would, or they shouldn't anyway. Your friend working at lowes got lucky, plenty of other people work hard at similar jobs and get shit on and nothing more. I suspect there are other reasons your other friend can't find work.
Recently a Law School was forced into including how many of its grads have full time work in the field of study above with advancement past entry level after 5 years.They also have to report what the starting salary the grads were. Those 95% placement numbers went down the toilet really quick when it was found out that half their grads barely made above minimal wage.
That is something that most college do not have to provide. So remember that when looking at the numbers they give out to attract high schoolers.
Also, I think the age old saying of "dont go for something stupid," doesnt apply anymore. I know tons of U of Michigan Engineering Grads who work at gas stations, I know teachers who cant find jobs, I know firefighters, EMTs, Police Officers who cant find anything, and of course the people who have degrees and dont even work in area of study.
I think the discussion of college is as one sided as the discussion of how babies are made. As a society we are programmed to just gloss over many of the real aspects of both subjects. When you are going to college people just say its great...no one really sits a person down and explain to them how risky it is.
I think the line is getting closer and closer to it being better to just get a crap job out of high school busting your ass at a place you are interested in and work your way up. For example, 2 of my friends wanted to become business mangers. One went to college to get a business degree the other just started working at Circuit City. After 8ish years the one worked his way up from cashier to store manger and when City closed he was recommend for manger of Lowes. He makes about 110k a year. The other one after graduating for business school and doing his internship he is about 50k in debt and manages a dollar tree for 15 bucks and hour. He is stuck in a black hole because he constantly defaults on his loans because doesnt make enough and cant seem to land a real job because its just not out there. No one wants to hire a fresh out of college kid to manage a billion dollar company yet no one told him that when they were cashing his checks from the college.
Because of the economy you have older people taking entry level jobs, way hire a fresh out of school kid when you could hire a person who has been doing it for 10-15 years for the same pay?[/QUOTE]
I don't think anyone really expects that anyone would, or they shouldn't anyway. Your friend working at lowes got lucky, plenty of other people work hard at similar jobs and get shit on and nothing more. I suspect there are other reasons your other friend can't find work.
[quote name='Clak']That lists salary for the varying degrees, but it doesn't take into account the ease at which any of those graduates were able to find work though.[/QUOTE]
Dental Technicians by me make 70k to start on an associates and they are usually in demand.
Dental Technicians by me make 70k to start on an associates and they are usually in demand.
panzerfaust
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Kind of feel like both sides exaggerate a bit here, and it very much depends on the individual and the field. College is basically an opportunity that the student needs to take an advantage of. If they don't, well -- it's off to the navy. So it's easy to blame that on the individual, but it's also kind of what's beaten into every kid's head from a very young age.
A false sense of confidence is very dangerous
A false sense of confidence is very dangerous
[quote name='Javery']College today = high school yesterday
grad school today = college yesterday
College isn't enough anymore! So sad.[/QUOTE]
Definitely true, and becoming more so. Even truer in countries like Taiwan where a much larger portion of the population has college degrees, master's degrees and terminal degrees.
grad school today = college yesterday
College isn't enough anymore! So sad.[/QUOTE]
Definitely true, and becoming more so. Even truer in countries like Taiwan where a much larger portion of the population has college degrees, master's degrees and terminal degrees.
I do wonder sometimes how much of it is driven simply by HR folks needing something to weed out candidates. Because lets be honest, a lot of jobs could be done by someone with a high school diploma and some training. I mean our network manager here never even went to college, but he has years of experience.
I think ti's a misnomer to think someone isn't qualified for a job because you don't have a degree, but that's what a lot of employers would have you believe.
I think ti's a misnomer to think someone isn't qualified for a job because you don't have a degree, but that's what a lot of employers would have you believe.
[quote name='kill3r7']This ^. Except most folks are now leaving grad school with more debt than the avg person makes in 5 years.[/QUOTE]
That's really only true of disciplines like Medicine, Law, Business etc. that tend to have high tuition and not many options for free rides as people (used) to be able to expect big salaries when graduating.
For a lot of other Master's and terminal degree programs in the social sciences and hard sciences students are getting paid tuition and stipends. Sometimes the stipends aren't enough to get buy on--especially if it's a school in a major metro area--but they (and then free tuition) cut way down on the amount of loans needed.
That's really only true of disciplines like Medicine, Law, Business etc. that tend to have high tuition and not many options for free rides as people (used) to be able to expect big salaries when graduating.
For a lot of other Master's and terminal degree programs in the social sciences and hard sciences students are getting paid tuition and stipends. Sometimes the stipends aren't enough to get buy on--especially if it's a school in a major metro area--but they (and then free tuition) cut way down on the amount of loans needed.
Yeah, going for the certifications is the way to go in your field.
Going to grad school while working full time is hard. It's doable in some professional master's programs that are geared around that, don't require a thesis etc.
But for the traditional master's programs (thesis, can go on to the terminal degree in the program etc.), in my experience most part time students who are working full time don't end up finishing.
Going to grad school while working full time is hard. It's doable in some professional master's programs that are geared around that, don't require a thesis etc.
But for the traditional master's programs (thesis, can go on to the terminal degree in the program etc.), in my experience most part time students who are working full time don't end up finishing.
Yeah, that's why a lot don't finish.
A solid traditional master's program is a ton of work, so you really have to be a hard working, workaholic type to get through while also working full time. Add kids into the mix, and I'm always amazed at those who do finish. Those tend to be some of the best students as they're obviously very interested in committed to doing it to survive all that pressure.
It also depends on the type of program. If it's research focused, I'd strongly advise against doing it part time as you learn as much (or more) from working on research with faculty for you assistantship as you do in the classroom. If you're part time, you're paying your own way and not getting that research assistantship experience. If it's a more practical/professional program, it's more doable. Especially if you already work in that field and are getting relevant experience while going to grad school part time.
A solid traditional master's program is a ton of work, so you really have to be a hard working, workaholic type to get through while also working full time. Add kids into the mix, and I'm always amazed at those who do finish. Those tend to be some of the best students as they're obviously very interested in committed to doing it to survive all that pressure.
It also depends on the type of program. If it's research focused, I'd strongly advise against doing it part time as you learn as much (or more) from working on research with faculty for you assistantship as you do in the classroom. If you're part time, you're paying your own way and not getting that research assistantship experience. If it's a more practical/professional program, it's more doable. Especially if you already work in that field and are getting relevant experience while going to grad school part time.
Yep, a lot of MBAs are very much designed around that.
And lots of areas have what they call "Professional Master's." Even some good programs in my field have them for criminal justice practitioner's who want to get a Master's.
They're all evening classes, no thesis requriment (and no option to go on to the Ph D program), and usually no assistantships or tuition waivers (unlike the traditional master's programs) since these people can't work the 20 hours a weeks as assistants.
And lots of areas have what they call "Professional Master's." Even some good programs in my field have them for criminal justice practitioner's who want to get a Master's.
They're all evening classes, no thesis requriment (and no option to go on to the Ph D program), and usually no assistantships or tuition waivers (unlike the traditional master's programs) since these people can't work the 20 hours a weeks as assistants.
That's one of those jobs I don't think I could do for any amount of money. There are few home repair tasks I hate working on more than plumbing. Just a damn pain in the ass working on your back in cramped spaces under sinks with little room to get tools on nuts and bolts, and even less to turn them etc.!
So plumbers definitely earn their pay IMO!.
So plumbers definitely earn their pay IMO!.
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soulvengeance
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[quote name='Magus8472']I knew I should have become an electrician.[/QUOTE]
Ditto.
Ditto.
Soodmeg
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Just to be clearly I know that my friend at lowes is the exception not the rule. Although he did work his ass off so its not luck.
I went to college and although I wouldnt trade it for the world it defiantly wasnt worth it. Seeing that I work in TV/Film and Broadcast production college is basically admission to a good ol boys club. If you didnt go to NYU, Columbia or another "my dad is the owner of a production company" type schools you might as well beg your way into a internship at a local house and learn the ropes from them.
I am just running into a lot more people who didnt go to traditional school and choose vocational or "learn on the streets" type paths and they seem to make it work. Not starting out your life with 25+ grand of debt seems to be a big leg up. I dont know, I dont have kids but when I do I will advise them to go to college even though I dont really believe it works that well anymore.
I think college is more for making great networking connections which will lead to landing a real job than it is for the college itself earning you the job.
I went to college and although I wouldnt trade it for the world it defiantly wasnt worth it. Seeing that I work in TV/Film and Broadcast production college is basically admission to a good ol boys club. If you didnt go to NYU, Columbia or another "my dad is the owner of a production company" type schools you might as well beg your way into a internship at a local house and learn the ropes from them.
I am just running into a lot more people who didnt go to traditional school and choose vocational or "learn on the streets" type paths and they seem to make it work. Not starting out your life with 25+ grand of debt seems to be a big leg up. I dont know, I dont have kids but when I do I will advise them to go to college even though I dont really believe it works that well anymore.
I think college is more for making great networking connections which will lead to landing a real job than it is for the college itself earning you the job.
[quote name='Soodmeg']Just to be clearly I know that my friend at lowes is the exception not the rule. Although he did work his ass off so its not luck.
I went to college and although I wouldnt trade it for the world it defiantly wasnt worth it. Seeing that I work in TV/Film and Broadcast production college is basically admission to a good ol boys club. If you didnt go to NYU, Columbia or another "my dad is the owner of a production company" type schools you might as well beg your way into a internship at a local house and learn the ropes from them.
I am just running into a lot more people who didnt go to traditional school and choose vocational or "learn on the streets" type paths and they seem to make it work. Not starting out your life with 25+ grand of debt seems to be a big leg up. I dont know, I dont have kids but when I do I will advise them to go to college even though I dont really believe it works that well anymore.
I think college is more for making great networking connections which will lead to landing a real job than it is for the college itself earning you the job.[/QUOTE]
You sir, have hit a bingo.
Externalities are a bitch like that.
I went to college and although I wouldnt trade it for the world it defiantly wasnt worth it. Seeing that I work in TV/Film and Broadcast production college is basically admission to a good ol boys club. If you didnt go to NYU, Columbia or another "my dad is the owner of a production company" type schools you might as well beg your way into a internship at a local house and learn the ropes from them.
I am just running into a lot more people who didnt go to traditional school and choose vocational or "learn on the streets" type paths and they seem to make it work. Not starting out your life with 25+ grand of debt seems to be a big leg up. I dont know, I dont have kids but when I do I will advise them to go to college even though I dont really believe it works that well anymore.
I think college is more for making great networking connections which will lead to landing a real job than it is for the college itself earning you the job.[/QUOTE]
You sir, have hit a bingo.
Externalities are a bitch like that.
[quote name='Soodmeg']Just to be clearly I know that my friend at lowes is the exception not the rule. Although he did work his ass off so its not luck. [/quote]
What you should say there is that it's not solely luck. Luck is still involved as plenty of people work their asses off in retail jobs etc. and never get anywhere from it.
Yeah, who you know can matter a lot more having a degree much of the time. And more so in some fields than others. And I'd think TV/Film would be one of the worst in that regard in terms of the "good ole boy" network BS.
Well learning skills does matter a great deal in some fields. Be it things needed to be an engineer or chemist, how to conduct research for any type of research career (statistics, software packages etc.). So in some areas there are just technical things you need to do a job that you can learn easier in college than anywhere else.
But networking is still crucially important. I have no qualms admitting that I was able to land an academic job during the height of the recession largely for such reasons. I went to the top ranked doctoral program in my field, did well in class and in getting some good publications out (from having one of the top scholars in my field as an adviser) and, from being at the top program, my letters of recommendation were from some of the most famous and respected people in my field.
So it was part hard work and personal achievement--both in having done well enough in undergrad to get into the top grad program and to do well while there--but a lot of it was also just the pedigree and networking that comes with getting a degree at a top department.
The relevant takeaway there is that it really does matter where you go to school--especially for grad school. All degrees and college experiences are not created equal. Work hard and get into the school that has the best department in your field and find a way to work under the top people in your specific subarea within your field if you really want to maximize the value of your investment in getting these degrees.
In short, if you want to maximize the chances that your college experience pays off, pick a field with good job prospects and get your degree at one of the top programs in that field.
What you should say there is that it's not solely luck. Luck is still involved as plenty of people work their asses off in retail jobs etc. and never get anywhere from it.
Yeah, who you know can matter a lot more having a degree much of the time. And more so in some fields than others. And I'd think TV/Film would be one of the worst in that regard in terms of the "good ole boy" network BS.
Well learning skills does matter a great deal in some fields. Be it things needed to be an engineer or chemist, how to conduct research for any type of research career (statistics, software packages etc.). So in some areas there are just technical things you need to do a job that you can learn easier in college than anywhere else.
But networking is still crucially important. I have no qualms admitting that I was able to land an academic job during the height of the recession largely for such reasons. I went to the top ranked doctoral program in my field, did well in class and in getting some good publications out (from having one of the top scholars in my field as an adviser) and, from being at the top program, my letters of recommendation were from some of the most famous and respected people in my field.
So it was part hard work and personal achievement--both in having done well enough in undergrad to get into the top grad program and to do well while there--but a lot of it was also just the pedigree and networking that comes with getting a degree at a top department.
The relevant takeaway there is that it really does matter where you go to school--especially for grad school. All degrees and college experiences are not created equal. Work hard and get into the school that has the best department in your field and find a way to work under the top people in your specific subarea within your field if you really want to maximize the value of your investment in getting these degrees.
In short, if you want to maximize the chances that your college experience pays off, pick a field with good job prospects and get your degree at one of the top programs in that field.
panzerfaust
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i'm glad i'm in the computer science field, people are really just concerned with what you're capable of.
BigT
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[quote name='speedracer']
If I was starting today, I would be a Pharmacist. Six years of school instead of eight, $100k median right out of the gate, and undergrad requirements don't include a bunch of bullshit. I'll never forgive my business degree for making me spend $1k on aing economics of the 18th century class.
[/QUOTE]
Pharmacy is a good gig, but how did you get the 6 years figure? I've heard of some combined programs that do 7 yrs BS/Pharm.D, but the classic path is BS degree then 4 years of pharm school. From hanging out with the pharmacists I know, some also do a one year residency that pays pitifully (~45K)... after that, in one healthcare system I know, I've seen some inpatient pharmacists starting at $130K/yr with some overtime. 2-3 years out, I've seen them making up to $160K/yr with overtime. Starting base salary appears to be around $110K. Of course, this is different from Rite-Aid pharmacy, which sucks - you have to deal with pissed off people who are angry that their MD didn't write for enough percocet tabs or that their insurance won't cover this or that...
If I were to do it again, I'd develop some connections and would become a government worker where I could be uneducated and incompetent and would still make $150K: http://taxdollars.ocregister.com/2012/01/23/tens-of-thousands-of-public-workers-in-150k-club/146819/
I've heard that being a lobbyist also pays well... ask Newt
MD is plus/minus: lots of debt up front and seemingly endless training... internship, residency, fellowships... plus risk is high due to litigation, crazy patients (except for the geriatric population, it seems to be mainly a self-selected group), and crazy medical boards who have way too much power. Sure, if you become a well known liver transplant surgeon or neurosurgeon, you can make baller money... but the garden variety general surgeon or internist/hospitalist mainly does boring routine stuff and makes mid 100K to mid 200K. Some specialties can significantly raise that sum, but that ebbs and flows as well and to make the really nice money, you usually have to turn into a douchebag (e.g., cardiologist who gets tons of stress tests; catheterizes tons of people for questionable indications, shoots the renal arteries on his way up and then intervenes on ~70% lesions (probably more like 30% in reality) to increase billing...) If you are someone who is reasonable and only does procedures when indicated, you'll likely end up poor...
If I was starting today, I would be a Pharmacist. Six years of school instead of eight, $100k median right out of the gate, and undergrad requirements don't include a bunch of bullshit. I'll never forgive my business degree for making me spend $1k on a
ing economics of the 18th century class. [/QUOTE]
Pharmacy is a good gig, but how did you get the 6 years figure? I've heard of some combined programs that do 7 yrs BS/Pharm.D, but the classic path is BS degree then 4 years of pharm school. From hanging out with the pharmacists I know, some also do a one year residency that pays pitifully (~45K)... after that, in one healthcare system I know, I've seen some inpatient pharmacists starting at $130K/yr with some overtime. 2-3 years out, I've seen them making up to $160K/yr with overtime. Starting base salary appears to be around $110K. Of course, this is different from Rite-Aid pharmacy, which sucks - you have to deal with pissed off people who are angry that their MD didn't write for enough percocet tabs or that their insurance won't cover this or that...
If I were to do it again, I'd develop some connections and would become a government worker where I could be uneducated and incompetent and would still make $150K: http://taxdollars.ocregister.com/2012/01/23/tens-of-thousands-of-public-workers-in-150k-club/146819/
I've heard that being a lobbyist also pays well... ask Newt
MD is plus/minus: lots of debt up front and seemingly endless training... internship, residency, fellowships... plus risk is high due to litigation, crazy patients (except for the geriatric population, it seems to be mainly a self-selected group), and crazy medical boards who have way too much power. Sure, if you become a well known liver transplant surgeon or neurosurgeon, you can make baller money... but the garden variety general surgeon or internist/hospitalist mainly does boring routine stuff and makes mid 100K to mid 200K. Some specialties can significantly raise that sum, but that ebbs and flows as well and to make the really nice money, you usually have to turn into a douchebag (e.g., cardiologist who gets tons of stress tests; catheterizes tons of people for questionable indications, shoots the renal arteries on his way up and then intervenes on ~70% lesions (probably more like 30% in reality) to increase billing...) If you are someone who is reasonable and only does procedures when indicated, you'll likely end up poor...
[quote name='panzerfaust']i'm glad i'm in the computer science field, people are really just concerned with what you're capable of.[/QUOTE]
To be fair, some of it is related to that.
For instance, when we're hiring a new faculty member all we have is their CV (so we can see what they've published mainly), where they got their degree (is it a top program where they're well trained), who their Masters/PhD adviser was (is it a leading scholar?--again indicator of training quality) and who their letters of recommendation are from (mean more if from leading scholars) and how strong they are (are they very personal, or very generic?).
So the pedigree stuff isn't just nepotism etc. It's acknowledging that you're more likely to make a good hire if they've already shown ability to publish, and were trained by a top scholar at a top program in our field, and have strong letters of recommendation from their adviser and other leading scholars.
So it's really no different that what you'll get in your field--just more formalized. But even in CS it's easier to get a job if your degree is from a top CS program and your references are respected people in the field (be it professors or former bosses at large and respected IT firms etc.). There just tends to be more focus on personal connections, and less on prestige of where the degree was earned with jobs outside of academics. It matters more that the person doing the hiring knows one of your letter of rec writers personally more than it does respecting the school/department the letter writer works in. Where as both matter a lot in academia.
In any case, all that kind of stuff is just used to judge what you're capable of. Especially when people are starting out and don't have much work experience on their resume to demonstrate their actual capabilities. For such people it comes down to how well you think they were trained--and letters of rec, and where they were trained are the main indicators of that for people lacking work experience.
To be fair, some of it is related to that.
For instance, when we're hiring a new faculty member all we have is their CV (so we can see what they've published mainly), where they got their degree (is it a top program where they're well trained), who their Masters/PhD adviser was (is it a leading scholar?--again indicator of training quality) and who their letters of recommendation are from (mean more if from leading scholars) and how strong they are (are they very personal, or very generic?).
So the pedigree stuff isn't just nepotism etc. It's acknowledging that you're more likely to make a good hire if they've already shown ability to publish, and were trained by a top scholar at a top program in our field, and have strong letters of recommendation from their adviser and other leading scholars.
So it's really no different that what you'll get in your field--just more formalized. But even in CS it's easier to get a job if your degree is from a top CS program and your references are respected people in the field (be it professors or former bosses at large and respected IT firms etc.). There just tends to be more focus on personal connections, and less on prestige of where the degree was earned with jobs outside of academics. It matters more that the person doing the hiring knows one of your letter of rec writers personally more than it does respecting the school/department the letter writer works in. Where as both matter a lot in academia.
In any case, all that kind of stuff is just used to judge what you're capable of. Especially when people are starting out and don't have much work experience on their resume to demonstrate their actual capabilities. For such people it comes down to how well you think they were trained--and letters of rec, and where they were trained are the main indicators of that for people lacking work experience.
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Lyricsborn
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The way I see it is that many come out of college with the thought that they are entitled to job unlike back in my day where you had to continue learning, networking, and activley pushing yourself to find a job and make it worth the time and money spent.
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Soodmeg
CAGiversary!
[quote name='Lyricsborn']The way I see it is that many come out of college with the thought that are entitled to job unlike back in my day where you had to continue learning, networking, and activley pushing yourself to find a job and make it worth the time and money spent.[/QUOTE]
Uhhhh, I think that is because they are brain washed to believe so. And to be honest...they are at least half right. You tell a kid from birth that the only way to excel in life is to spend xxxx amount in school....I think its only a good investment to expect some type of return on it.
Lets forget about the people who picked Art History or something, like I said there are A LOT of high ranking grads who work at best buy and dollar tree. I agree that people should always try to work harder and learn new things but to look down at a person who spent 40k and 6 years on a degree as "entitled" is a little much because I bet that college felt plenty entitled to his money when they were cashing his checks.
I have a problem with the amount of risk that is put solely on the student. Colleges have been proven to toss around any number they feel will attract young adults, they then promise them things that in reality dont exist, 95% job placement rates (oh wait 45% work at burger king!) and when it doesnt happen they look down their noses and claim the student didnt try hard enough.
Its almost a racket...although other than more truthful reporting of their numbers I dont know what else you could do to help young kids.
Uhhhh, I think that is because they are brain washed to believe so. And to be honest...they are at least half right. You tell a kid from birth that the only way to excel in life is to spend xxxx amount in school....I think its only a good investment to expect some type of return on it.
Lets forget about the people who picked Art History or something, like I said there are A LOT of high ranking grads who work at best buy and dollar tree. I agree that people should always try to work harder and learn new things but to look down at a person who spent 40k and 6 years on a degree as "entitled" is a little much because I bet that college felt plenty entitled to his money when they were cashing his checks.
I have a problem with the amount of risk that is put solely on the student. Colleges have been proven to toss around any number they feel will attract young adults, they then promise them things that in reality dont exist, 95% job placement rates (oh wait 45% work at burger king!) and when it doesnt happen they look down their noses and claim the student didnt try hard enough.
Its almost a racket...although other than more truthful reporting of their numbers I dont know what else you could do to help young kids.
BigT
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[quote name='Soodmeg']
Its almost a racket...although other than more truthful reporting of their numbers I dont know what else you could do to help young kids.[/QUOTE]
This is a variation of the most common scam around... it is basically a mechanism by which to redistribute wealth to the already wealthy.
Step 1: Increase the availability of money (easy loans in the housing market, federal loans in the education market, "donations" in the election cycle, government spending for defense, etc.)
Step 2: Convince people that something is necessary or highly desirable (a large home, a college education, advertising for an election candidate, protecting our freedom from evil terrorists, etc.)
Step 3: Massive amounts of money are transferred to: mortgage companies, institutes of higher education, the media, and to our military industrial complex, etc.
Its almost a racket...although other than more truthful reporting of their numbers I dont know what else you could do to help young kids.[/QUOTE]
This is a variation of the most common scam around... it is basically a mechanism by which to redistribute wealth to the already wealthy.
Step 1: Increase the availability of money (easy loans in the housing market, federal loans in the education market, "donations" in the election cycle, government spending for defense, etc.)
Step 2: Convince people that something is necessary or highly desirable (a large home, a college education, advertising for an election candidate, protecting our freedom from evil terrorists, etc.)
Step 3: Massive amounts of money are transferred to: mortgage companies, institutes of higher education, the media, and to our military industrial complex, etc.
Soodmeg
CAGiversary!
Here is a yahoo report that just came out. Apparently its what the top 1% earners in America majored in.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/top-1-earners-majored-163026283.html
Its yahoo though....soooooo meh?
By the way, there are like 5 types of history is on the list.....meh? Ok now I am just confused, English Language and Literature is on there. What does that even mean? My wife indeed majored in English Language and Lit as well as Early Childhood development. She loves her job as a Pre-School Director but I dont recall her getting 100k plus job offers. What is even going on in this list?
EDIT: Oh its undergrad degrees so it doesnt count any grad work, thus really make this table worthless. Sorry to have wasted your time.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/top-1-earners-majored-163026283.html
Its yahoo though....soooooo meh?
By the way, there are like 5 types of history is on the list.....meh? Ok now I am just confused, English Language and Literature is on there. What does that even mean? My wife indeed majored in English Language and Lit as well as Early Childhood development. She loves her job as a Pre-School Director but I dont recall her getting 100k plus job offers. What is even going on in this list?
EDIT: Oh its undergrad degrees so it doesnt count any grad work, thus really make this table worthless. Sorry to have wasted your time.
speedracer
Banned
[quote name='BigT']Pharmacy is a good gig, but how did you get the 6 years figure? I've heard of some combined programs that do 7 yrs BS/Pharm.D, but the classic path is BS degree then 4 years of pharm school. From hanging out with the pharmacists I know, some also do a one year residency that pays pitifully (~45K)... after that, in one healthcare system I know, I've seen some inpatient pharmacists starting at $130K/yr with some overtime. 2-3 years out, I've seen them making up to $160K/yr with overtime. Starting base salary appears to be around $110K. Of course, this is different from Rite-Aid pharmacy, which sucks - you have to deal with pissed off people who are angry that their MD didn't write for enough percocet tabs or that their insurance won't cover this or that...[/quote]
Maybe it's a state by state thing? I don't think students are required to get an undergrad here. They do a two year pre-pharm then 4 years for the pharm.d.
Maybe it's a state by state thing? I don't think students are required to get an undergrad here. They do a two year pre-pharm then 4 years for the pharm.d.
Jesus. It's 5:28am and I need a drink after reading that.
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