Gay marriage vote fails in Maine

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spmahn

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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091104/ap_on_el_st_lo/us_gay_marriage_maine

This marks the 31st state that has brought gay marriage up for a popular vote, and also the 31st state where it has failed. I'm really not sure what to make of this, and why it's seems to be such a decisive issue. Personally, I couldn't care less about gay marriage anymore, we have a ton of other issues far more important which we are facing that we have to deal with.

I find it interesting however that as much as we seem to have progressed as a society this past decade, with a black president, potentially socialized health care, and serious consideration being given to the legalization of marijuana, gay marriage is one issue that seems to transcend partisan politics, as blue states seem to be just as much against it as red states. I think it's a lot of it has to do with apathy from the general public, along with the religious rights ability to mobilize against it. I also feel part of it is that the gay community doesn't really have any prominent figures to rally around and give them popular support, the way African Americans did in the past with Martin Luther King and Malcom X, and do today with guys like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson.

I'm not really aware, do the vast majority of homosexuals support the issue, or is there a lot of apathy amongst them as well? Have there been any attempts to form a coalition and nationalize the issue? It seems to me that the homosexual community hasn't really been able to get on the same page and rally together the way a lot of other groups do and have done in the past. Is it because they really are a much smaller minority, and simply don't have the numbers? I just find the disconnect between our society's increasingly progressive social attitudes towards almost everything except gay marriage to be very interesting, and sad.
 
I'm always disgusted when civil rights are at the mercy of a popular vote. fucking retarded religious shitheads...

And I suspect you're right about it being too small a minority to effectively rally and change peoples' minds. There's a whole lot of long-held dogma to combat too, and a lot of (horrible, bigoted) people are set in their (horrible, bigoted) ways. I'm confident that same-sex marriage will happen eventually, as a newer, more tolerant generation gradually takes over, and the older, intolerant asshole generation dies off. Still, sooner rather than later sure would be nice.
 
I wouldn't put Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton on MLK's level...

Gay marriage will happen. Give it time; it just needs a breakthrough. Perhaps if there was some show vote in Massachusetts, it'd give traction to gay marriage in other states.
 
It always surprises me when people care so much about who loves who and how. If I can marry my wife, who I love my every thing in me, then how can I say someone else can't feel the same way about someone else. Just does not compute with me.
 
We should put things like abortion and legalized drugs up for vote to and let the people decide, it sucks that certain issues like gay marriage and health care are continously shot down as unpopular yet they can keep trying until they can pass it, yet other issues are not up for debate and voting.
 
Actually, time and again, public healthcare is actually supported by the majority, just not when the question is worded to make sure they don't. And abortion, if up to a popular vote, wouldn't be illegal, but probably more limited than it is (and if people actually knew how abortion was treated legally they probably wouldn't be as offended by it either, but anti-abortion people essentially treat it like it's a free-for-all currently).

Of course every right people have shouldn't be determined by vote, and there shouldn't be a "tyranny of the majority" but I support people voting on anything so long as the majority agrees with me.
 
[quote name='jputahraptor']We should put things like abortion and legalized drugs up for vote to and let the people decide, it sucks that certain issues like gay marriage and health care are continously shot down as unpopular yet they can keep trying until they can pass it, yet other issues are not up for debate and voting.[/QUOTE]
I agree. We should have put the Civil Rights Act up for a vote. It was positively criminal of the Feds to guarantee liberty because a majority of the people wouldn't vote for it.

Old people vote and old people don't like teh gays. When the worst generation dies, rights for gays will be instituted. It's a shame but it's the way it is.
 
[quote name='jputahraptor']We should put things like abortion and legalized drugs up for vote to and let the people decide, it sucks that certain issues like gay marriage and health care are continously shot down as unpopular yet they can keep trying until they can pass it, yet other issues are not up for debate and voting.[/QUOTE]

[quote name='Ayn Rand']Individual rights are not subject to a public vote; a majority has no right to vote away the rights of a minority; the political function of rights is precisely to protect minorities from oppression by majorities (and the smallest minority on earth is the individual).[/QUOTE]

-
 
[quote name='evanft']Letting people vote to take away the rights of a minority is absolutely fucking retarded.[/QUOTE]

This. Just further proof that although we trumpet ourselves as the "greatest nation in the world" we're really so far behind the rest of the developed world that it's sickening sometimes.
 
[quote name='DarkSageRK'][quote name='Ayn Rand']Individual rights are not subject to a public vote; a majority has no right to vote away the rights of a minority; the political function of rights is precisely to protect minorities from oppression by majorities (and the smallest minority on earth is the individual).[/quote][/QUOTE]

Don't be quoting Ayn Rand on here. That'll get you lynched... ;)
 
i said it in the gay marriage thread. if its put up to a vote, it will fail. the places its legal are all because of judges and state legislatures.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Don't be quoting Ayn Rand on here. That'll get you lynched... ;)[/QUOTE]
Hey man, homegirl knocked the social issues out of the park. I got nothin but love for her there. It's the economics that I find naive.
 
[quote name='RAMSTORIA']i said it in the gay marriage thread. if its put up to a vote, it will fail. the places its legal are all because of judges and state legislatures.[/QUOTE]

Maybe I just want to believe this since I'm from there, but I think if it ever came to a vote in Massachusetts it would probably be upheld. After all, people there have lived with it for 6 years now and have seen firsthand just how little difference it makes in their lives.
 
I guess more Black people live in Maine than we thought. ;P But seriously, I know there are Black people that AREN'T Homophobes. I was surprised, and happily so, when I found out Michael Baisden wasn't. I mean I thought or feared in my gut that he was, like he was probably a big time Baptist. No offense to Baptist's, I just know it tends to be Conservative.

But seriously I thought a place as Liberal as Maine wouldn't shoot it down but I heard it was close. All this means is more Gay people need to flood the state, make it the new Castro in San Fran and it would easily pass. I mean the entire size of the Castro District is probably bigger then Maine. ;-)
 
Oh, sweet conservatives and their Ayn Rand. They'll quote the shit out of her until they realize she actually believes what she says and writes. Oh, and she's an atheist. Ooops....

Then when they get in power they'll kind of forget about her. She's always there a little bit, when it helps them push their agenda.
 
[quote name='spmahn']the religious rights ability to mobilize against it. [/QUOTE]

Ding ding ding, we have a winner! Show him what's behind curtain number three!

The problem is America is full of people who have been taught since youth to hate based on a book of fairytales.
 
[quote name='IRHari']Oh, sweet conservatives and their Ayn Rand. They'll quote the shit out of her until they realize she actually believes what she says and writes. Oh, and she's an atheist. Ooops....

Then when they get in power they'll kind of forget about her. She's always there a little bit, when it helps them push their agenda.[/QUOTE]

Ayn Rand's whole basis of thinking was to be selfish and look out for #1. That's far and away Republican ideology long before theistic layering.

See also: Fox News
 
[quote name='georox']Ding ding ding, we have a winner! Show him what's behind curtain number three!

The problem is America is full of people who have been taught since youth to hate based on a book of fairytales.[/QUOTE]

:roll: I've always find it funny how a lot of the same people that sit on their high horse and preach tolerance and acceptance are almost always the same ones who like to bash Christianity at every turn, and blame Christians for all of society's ills. Sorry folks, you can't have your cake and eat it too.
 
[quote name='SpazX']And abortion, if up to a popular vote, wouldn't be illegal, but probably more limited than it is (and if people actually knew how abortion was treated legally they probably wouldn't be as offended by it either, but anti-abortion people essentially treat it like it's a free-for-all currently).[/QUOTE]

Please explain what you mean by "free for all" and why people wouldn't be as offended.
 
You can tolerate an idea but still point out it's short comings. I support the right of someone to believe what they want, but i'm not going to hold back if i think what they believe is ridiculous or even a bad influence.
 
[quote name='elprincipe']Please explain what you mean by "free for all" and why people wouldn't be as offended.[/QUOTE]

Obviously you would still be offended. In general people aren't as hardline against it though, most people would make exceptions for rape, etc. at the very least, and most support Roe v Wade (even if they don't know what was in that decision, just that it "legalized abortion").

And by "free for all" I mean that they probably don't know what Roe v Wade actually said and think women are having third trimester abortions in the thousands every day for no reason or something. I don't mean that's everybody, but plenty are misinformed (probably on both sides anyway).
 
[quote name='spmahn']:roll: I've always find it funny how a lot of the same people that sit on their high horse and preach tolerance and acceptance are almost always the same ones who like to bash Christianity at every turn, and blame Christians for all of society's ills. Sorry folks, you can't have your cake and eat it too.[/QUOTE]

Kinda smacks of hypocrisy don't it?
 
Wait a minute. I thought it was the Christians that sit on their high horse and tell everyone how to live.

Or did the Republican Party go gay all of a sudden?
 
[quote name='depascal22']Wait a minute. I thought it was the Christians that sit on their high horse and tell everyone how to live.

Or did the Republican Party go gay all of a sudden?[/QUOTE]

I'm not saying thats right either, it isn't, but you can't preach tolerance for homosexuals and other groups on one hand, while ridiculing and denigrating the beliefs of 2 billion people on the other, it doesnt work that way. On the other side however, anyone claiming to be any sort of Christian while simultaneously judging and comdeming their fellow man for their beliefs or behaviors is A. Not Christian and B. Wrong in doing so.

Matthew 7:1 "Judge not, lest ye be judged"
 
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I think he was referring to atheists and/or people who bash Christianity, not homosexuals. EDIT: He posted before I finished my post.

I'll agree with IRHari on Republicans and libertarianism and Objectivism - they go right out the window the minute the party regains power. It's really funny to see the "news" station that barred Ron Paul from its presidential primary debate try to co-opt the movement he helped spark... a movement that was, in large part, directly against what Fox News represents. It was also sadly predictable.
 
marriage isn't a right

the problem is not that gays cannot marry, the problem is that our government differentiates between marriage and civil union
 
[quote name='depascal22']
Or did the Republican Party go gay all of a sudden?[/QUOTE]

No, the prefer doing it one at a time, while still preaching hatred and fear on the behalf of whoever pays them the most, each trying to up the ante in terms of embarrassment when they finally stumble out of the closet.

We're gonna find out there's a treehouse in a suburban neighborhood just outside DC, rife with sweaty old white men going at it like woodchucks. Lemonparty will be dethroned. Believe it.
 
I think you'll find that most atheists who "bash" Christianity are doing it from a scientific or historic stand point. In which case, scientific and historic facts speak for themselves.

Btw, i recently spoke to a guy in a class who converted from Christianity to Islam, the way he described it is so much more level headed that Christianity. Even admitting that it's crazy to think that one person can be a father, son, and ghost.
 
While I'm hardly a god fearing individual, trying to use words to describe magic is like trying to use a screwdriver to cut a turkey.

Let's pretend (yay, pretend time!) there was some all-mighty, all powerful creature that created the heavens and the earth. This thing got pissed off and flooded the earth, killing virtually everyone. A simple thought from this thing could not only end your life, but make your mind spend an eternity in hell (literally).

Are you going to tell it that it cannot be a father, a son and a ghost? ;)
 
[quote name='JolietJake']
Btw, i recently spoke to a guy in a class who converted from Christianity to Islam, the way he described it is so much more level headed that Christianity. Even admitting that it's crazy to think that one person can be a father, son, and ghost.[/QUOTE]

Yes. When I think of Islam I think of level-headed intellectuals whose views are based entirely on logic.

Based on that, it isn't surprising that they're so much more accepting of homosexuality than those silly Christians are.

Best religion ever.
 
[quote name='DarkSageRK']Yes. When I think of Islam I think of level-headed intellectuals whose views are based entirely on logic.

Based on that, it isn't surprising that they're so much more accepting of homosexuality than those silly Christians are.

Best religion ever.[/QUOTE]

How many muslims do you actually know or have carried a personal conversation with, because every left-handed, lesbian, eskimo I've ever seen on TV seemed so illogical. I'm sure they all are.
 
[quote name='berzirk']Hmm, guess I'm the only one on CAG who is glad it failed. And I'm hardly what one would call conservative.[/QUOTE]

You may not be conservative, but you *are* a horrible person. Congratulations. :D
 
Kirin: Is Ashiya near Fukuoka? I don't know my Japanese geography, but if that's the place I think it is, my best friend lives over there. Not that it matters, but I went to his wedding a year ago and had the best trip of my life in Tokyo/Fukuoka.

Thread misdirection finished.
 
[quote name='JolietJake'] Even admitting that it's crazy to think that one person can be a father, son, and ghost.[/QUOTE]


What? Thats his explenation?

Wow.
 
[quote name='Strell']Kirin: Is Ashiya near Fukuoka? I don't know my Japanese geography, but if that's the place I think it is, my best friend lives over there. Not that it matters, but I went to his wedding a year ago and had the best trip of my life in Tokyo/Fukuoka.

Thread misdirection finished.[/QUOTE]

I think there's another Ashiya in Fukuoka, but my Ashiya is right between Osaka and Kobe.
 
[quote name='Kirin Lemon']You may not be conservative, but you *are* a horrible person. Congratulations. :D[/QUOTE]

High five?
 
[quote name='Snake2715']What? Thats his explenation?

Wow.[/QUOTE]
That it's crazy? Not his words, i think he said it was obviously impossible or something.
 
[quote name='DarkSageRK']Yes. When I think of Islam I think of level-headed intellectuals whose views are based entirely on logic.

Based on that, it isn't surprising that they're so much more accepting of homosexuality than those silly Christians are.

Best religion ever.[/QUOTE]Just so you know, a lot of that has to do more with culture than anything else. I mean there are plenty of gay republicans in this country, yet what would you say is the republican stance on homosexuality?

Radical extremism exists everywhere, don't damn an entire people because of the views of a few. I mean, i detest fundamentalist Christians, but i realize that isn't every Chrisitian.
 
[quote name='JolietJake']
Radical extremism exists everywhere, don't damn an entire people because of the views of a few. I mean, i detest fundamentalist Christians, but i realize that isn't every Chrisitian.[/QUOTE]

What you say is valid, but you also have to consider where the extremists get their material from: the established holy texts.
 
[quote name='spmahn']:roll: I've always find it funny how a lot of the same people that sit on their high horse and preach tolerance and acceptance are almost always the same ones who like to bash Christianity at every turn, and blame Christians for all of society's ills. Sorry folks, you can't have your cake and eat it too.[/QUOTE]

There are Christians that are gay friendly, and of course there are many atheists or secular minded people may be anti-gay(vice-versa). The thing is there's a disproportionate amount of gay related hate on the Christian end of America, and there's a reason for that.

The bible as we know it today clearly paints gay acts in a horribly detestable way. Personally, I can't fathom how one can just gloss over that fact. Most people I know and love are Christian people, but it's not fair to expect others to defend a text at the expense of a minority such as the Gays.
 
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Problem is though that religion is up to interpretation. Something i have a problem with personally. That's what you have fundamentalists on the extreme side and more moderates on the other.

It's all nonsense to me, but i do understand that not all people of a faith act the same way.
 
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