Health care

Koggit

Koggit

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My make-or-break issue in this election is health care. I want to know what everyone thinks.

I feel as though it's the most important issue in America right now, and from what I've seen it seems few understand what's wrong and what needs to be done to fix it.

I don't want to state my stance just yet -- I just want to know what you think.
 
I feel that I'd rather have this country be destroyed than become more of a socialist state than it already is.

fuck socialized health care.

Reform could help, so long as it's not a socialist solution, but at the same time, it could make things much worse.
 
I agree with Koggit on this. Nothing I hear seems targeted to fix the actual problem.

The problem is that the American "healthcare system" is in reality not much of a system at all. It is a technically outdated patchwork of programs. Just look at the record keeping on patient medical history or financials, can you name another industry that uses such outdated, poorly-coordinated, and ultimately wasteful data management (well maybe Hollywood does - but that's purposeful...)
 
[quote name='Liquid 2']I feel that I'd rather have this country be destroyed than become more of a socialist state than it already is.

fuck socialized health care.

Reform could help, so long as it's not a socialist solution, but at the same time, it could make things much worse.[/QUOTE]

Looking at the past few weeks I would say fuck your ignorance and bring on the "socialism".
 
We have hundreds of thousands of Americans living shit lives due to chance.

Profit-driven, private insurance doesn't work.

It's as if you were told to draw a straw at birth, and if you picked the wrong straw the rest of your life sucks while your fellow Americans watch it suck because they don't want to pay more tax.
 
[quote name='Liquid 2']I feel that I'd rather have this country be destroyed than become more of a socialist state than it already is.

fuck socialized health care.

Reform could help, so long as it's not a socialist solution, but at the same time, it could make things much worse.[/QUOTE]
Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.
 
I thought this column that was in Newsweek a couple weeks ago was a decent read.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/157573

I'd agree that socialized health care (in the extreme form like Canada) isn't the answer. I wouldn't go as far against it as this guy.

The best path IMO is soething like Obama's plan of making more affordable insurance available to anyone who chooses to buy into it ALONG with finding ways to get bullshit expenses out of the medical industry (reduce useless tests, find ways to make doctor's offices and hospitals more efficient, put much more effort on prevention/education etc.) as this guy points out.

It's not an either or situation. Giving people more insurance is great, but it needs to be coupled with prevention/education and fixing flaws in the health care industry that greatly waste money.
 
Universal health care is not the way to go. The federal government can't even run Medicare properly, you definitely don't want the government calling the shots on your health care.

Tort reform to limit malpractice payments.

Scrap social security. The bulk of retirement expenses goes into health care anyway. Instead, the money that would normally be taken for social security goes into a mandatory individual medical savings account that is only accessible for health care related expenses. Each individual also has the option to contribute more tax-free depending on whatever chronic condition you may have. The federal government also reimburses 100% your annual physical with your primary care doctor to encourage preventative care.
 
I think we already had a thread on this a few months ago.

I would just like to remind everyone that dopa had absolutely no idea what he was talking about then and he has no idea now.
 
[quote name='dopa345']money that would normally be taken for social security goes into a mandatory individual medical savings account that is only accessible for health care related expenses. Each individual also has the option to contribute more tax-free depending on whatever chronic condition you may have.[/QUOTE]

You really, really underestimate the cost of health care for those who need it most... tens of thousands a year if you're lucky, millions a year if you're not. You think allowing it to be tax free is going to enable them to pay for it themselves?
 
[quote name='Koggit']You really, really underestimate the cost of health care for those who need it most... tens of thousands a year if you're lucky, millions a year if you're not. You think allowing it to be tax free is going to enable them to pay for it themselves?[/QUOTE]

The money allows them to purchase their own health insurance or cover out of pocket costs for things their existing insurance does not cover. I don't intend for them to fund their own health care costs. And a large part why costs are so high is that there is very little emphasis on preventative medicine. This would encourage people to see their PCP on a regular basis and catch things before they become bigger problems.

And it does not cost "millions of dollars a year" for the average American. You're telling me you spend or your health care costs are on average tens of thousands/year? I also have the feeling I have a better sense of health care costs than you.
 
[quote name='dopa345']Tort reform to limit malpractice payments.[/quote]
I'm curious what, if any, experience you have with tort litigation. Also, if you could detail what exactly you have a problem with now and what you'd want it changed to, I'd certainly be willing to listen.
 
I think that a mandate stating that insurance companies actually have to come through when the person requires it is a good start.

It's unfair for people to pay their premiums month after month, and then when they need the money from the insurance company, the company finds some way to get out of paying.
 
[quote name='dopa345']The money allows them to purchase their own health insurance or cover out of pocket costs for things their existing insurance does not cover. I don't intend for them to fund their own health care costs. And a large part why costs are so high is that there is very little emphasis on preventative medicine. This would encourage people to see their PCP on a regular basis and catch things before they become bigger problems.
[/QUOTE]


You're saying it would be used to cover things there existing health insurance doesn't cover, the problem is many don't have any health insurance period. And social security payments, especially for poorer folks, aren't going to cover insurance premiums, much less insurance premiums AND medical costs for things not covered by whatever insurance they buy on their own (which tends to cover less things that employer subsidized insurance since it's hard for most to buy that level of coverage without an employer paying a lot of the premiums).
 
[quote name='dopa345']Universal health care is not the way to go. The federal government can't even run Medicare properly, you definitely don't want the government calling the shots on your health care.
[/quote]
Actually, I DO want the government calling shots on my health care.

The alternative where capitalism is involved in any form involves someone from an insurance company calling the shots on my healthcare, where a NO decision makes them money and is encouraged.

Federal agencies can do a good job when you put competent people in charge and who dont think that government is the problem.
 
[quote name='dopa345']The money allows them to purchase their own health insurance or cover out of pocket costs for things their existing insurance does not cover. I don't intend for them to fund their own health care costs. And a large part why costs are so high is that there is very little emphasis on preventative medicine. This would encourage people to see their PCP on a regular basis and catch things before they become bigger problems.

And it does not cost "millions of dollars a year" for the average American. You're telling me you spend or your health care costs are on average tens of thousands/year? I also have the feeling I have a better sense of health care costs than you.[/QUOTE]

*sigh*

Not to call you ignorant, but that is a very ignorant response. I could tell you why you're wrong, but I'm a firm believer of education through exploration.

Here's a hypothetical scenario for you: You're 14 years old. Insured under your parents' group health plan, Cigna, in Louisiana. You're diagnosed with Arnold-Chari Malformation. Your medical bills, before insurance, are now averaging $400,000 a year. Fast forward nine crappy years. You're now 23 and a disabled dependent of your parents. Your father is laid off and loses his employer-provided health insurance. Cigna does not offer personal plans in Louisiana (only group health), so you cannot continue to be insured by them. Due to your now preexisting condition of Chiari, no insurer will cover you. They know that your medical bills are nearly half a million a year, so no profit-driven company would ever consider agreeing to pay for that. You call every provider in the state and they all turn you down -- it's not just expensive, it is completely unattainable, you don't get a quote at all. Now, without the necessary treatment you are completely bedridden, and constantly feel like complete shit. You can barely speak, now, and have pretty much no short-term memory. These problems could be treated, but you cannot afford that treatment. Your fellow Americans would rather see you suffer than approve of any legislation that would help you. So, tell me, what the hell do you do? Honestly, take a moment, put yourself in this situation, what do you do? Or are you okay with the fact that you are suffering due to absolutely no fault of your own? Afterall, hundreds of thousands of Americans are in a similar situation. But the "average American" is doing just fine, so I guess life's not so bad, right? Is that okay, to have hundreds of thousands of your fellow Americans suffering in such a situation? So long as the "average American" is okay?

The above describes my sister's current situation to a T, and similar situations are affecting millions of your fellow Americans. I, as her brother, am one of those affected Americans. But please, go on, tell me all about what the "average American" spends on health care and use that to justify privatized health insurance. Live in your bubble. I'm sure it's great there, completely oblivious to America's serious issues...
 
[quote name='dopa345']Universal health care is not the way to go. The federal government can't even run Medicare properly, you definitely don't want the government calling the shots on your health care.

Tort reform to limit malpractice payments.

Scrap social security. The bulk of retirement expenses goes into health care anyway. Instead, the money that would normally be taken for social security goes into a mandatory individual medical savings account that is only accessible for health care related expenses. Each individual also has the option to contribute more tax-free depending on whatever chronic condition you may have. The federal government also reimburses 100% your annual physical with your primary care doctor to encourage preventative care.[/QUOTE]

All medical companies will end up doing is spending more fighting against the malpractice lawsuits that people end up bringing. Everyone loses when it comes to tort reform. You can look at California as a prime example of why Tort reform sucks ass.

The medical industry is one of the shadiest in the country. Our taxes alreay pay a fuck ton of the cost towards it and we still have to pay absurd medical costs on top of what health insurance will not cover.

Also the dems at least are up front about what they are going to do with health care. McCain is going to tax people on employer provided health care and Bush gave out the largest entitlement program ever towards health care (which all the insurance companies loved). fucking people on both ends by spending their tax dollars on shitty health coverage and then fucking over people who get their shit through their employer. Sounds like good republican policies designed to fuck everyone over.
 
I'm sorry, but the reason our health care is so good, is because it's so expensive. If we make it more affordable, quality will fall. Which is OK. But, if we make it free for some, quality will be shit. Then we'll be as bad as England. 25% taxes and you have to book an emergency room visit 2 months in advance.
 
[quote name='Access_Denied']I'm sorry, but the reason our health care is so good, is because it's so expensive. If we make it more affordable, quality will fall. Which is OK. But, if we make it free for some, quality will be shit. Then we'll be as bad as England. 25% taxes and you have to book an emergency room visit 2 months in advance.[/quote]

And people are against any kind of government assistance because they actually believe what you just said.
 
For those of you who dont like socialistic policies, consider just what the concept of insurance IS:

Everyone pooling their money together (in the coffers of one company), so that company can distribute it out later when you need it.
 
[quote name='SpazX']And people are against any kind of government assistance because they actually believe what you just said.[/quote]

I don't mind assistance, but offering health care to ANYbody who can't 'afford' it, is just going to lead to abuse, higher taxes and lower quality. This may seem selfish (which it is), but the health care system now is working fine for me.
 
In MA it's the law to have health care. So my mom's runs out at the end of the month, can't afford the $350 insurance. She goes and checks to see if she can get it for free or discounted. Nope, so it's the law, but people can't afford it and no one will help? Yeah nice fucking job Mitt Asswipe Romney.
 
[quote name='Access_Denied']I don't mind assistance, but offering health care to ANYbody who can't 'afford' it, is just going to lead to abuse, higher taxes and lower quality. This may seem selfish (which it is), but the health care system now is working fine for me.[/quote]

Well yeah, you're selfish, and being selfish means never helping anybody else if it requires effort, but what I was talking about was your characterization of the waiting times for existing socialized health care systems. You don't wait for emergency care, that's stupid. You wait longer periods for elective surgeries (to give time for people who actually need surgery), and you'll have more of a line to wait in for regular appointments. If your finger gets cut off you don't have to wait for a month for them to try to reattach it.
 
I never quite understood why everyone fears universal healthcare. Is it just the insane fear of taxes? Or fear the government is controlling more than you think it should? I just don't get it. I spend a lot of time in Europe with my family. So, over the years I have gotten treatment there as well as in the states. As far as I have ever experianced, healthcare in France beats healthcare in the states hands down. If something is wrong with you, no matter who you are, they fix it. That is the way it should be. I fear for my friends who can't afford healthcare here, and especially those who have kids. I can't see how anyone wouldn't want their fellow man being taken care of. It just seems heartless.
 
[quote name='Access_Denied']I don't mind assistance, but offering health care to ANYbody who can't 'afford' it, is just going to lead to abuse, higher taxes and lower quality. This may seem selfish (which it is), but the health care system now is working fine for me.[/QUOTE]

That's incredibly short sighted. Explain any one of those points. Go on, explain any of them.

Abuse? How? How will it be abused any different than a private insurance company? The government will be playing the same role, but will not be profit-driven. That's the only change.

Higher taxes? Well, yeah, of course, but you'll also be paying less to those private organizations. Americans will break even, or damn close. If you're currently taxed 25% and pay 10% for health care, you'll probably be taxed 35% instead and pay 0% for health care. What difference does it make in the end? It's just another straw man argument.

Lower quality? How so? Again, you seem to be confusing government-provided health care (read: public insurance) with socialized medicine. Again, the only change will be the government, as a public entity without having concerns of profit, will act as your insurance company -- the government will be the middleman, rather than those profit-driven companies who want more than anything to deny your coverage and pay as little as possible. Please explain how this will result in lower quality health care. Or, better yet, just admit the truth: it won't.
 
[quote name='Access_Denied']I don't mind assistance, but offering health care to ANYbody who can't 'afford' it, is just going to lead to abuse, higher taxes and lower quality. This may seem selfish (which it is), but the health care system now is working fine for me.[/quote]

What an aloof and uninformed thing to say.

I don't know if there's a perfect solution, but fixing malpractice laws and involving the government might be good ideas.

Koggit makes some very valid arguments, I don't see any strength in the opposition here.
 
[quote name='Access_Denied']I don't mind assistance, but offering health care to ANYbody who can't 'afford' it, is just going to lead to abuse, higher taxes and lower quality. This may seem selfish (which it is), but the health care system now is working fine for me.[/QUOTE]

Well that is fucking peachy. It is working fine for me as well(for now anyway) and I support Universal Healthcare, do you perhaps not give a shit about fire departments because your house is not currently on fire?

Because would be the best analogy.

I mean seriously who the hell even thinks like that let alone says it?
 
[quote name='Msut77']I mean seriously who the hell even thinks like that let alone says it?[/QUOTE]

They're are a lot of people who think people should just look after themselves and if they can't make it tough shit--survival of the fittest.

I don't agree with that mindset at all, but it's not like he is unique in his line of thinking. Many people think that way.
 
[quote name='Access_Denied']I don't mind assistance, but offering health care to ANYbody who can't 'afford' it, is just going to lead to abuse, higher taxes and lower quality. This may seem selfish (which it is), but the health care system now is working fine for me.[/quote]

How much is your company paying for your health care? Wouldn't you rather have more of that money in your paycheck?

If yes, the current patchwork healthcare system, with it's exponentially rising costs and general failure to react to a patient's medical issue until it's in the critical phase, is not working fine for you.
 
[quote name='Msut77']Looking at the past few weeks I would say fuck your ignorance and bring on the "socialism".[/QUOTE]

[quote name='speedracer']Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.[/QUOTE]I'd like to highlight the quality of thought that went into the above two posts.

That being said...

[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']For those of you who dont like socialistic policies, consider just what the concept of insurance IS:

Everyone pooling their money together (in the coffers of one company), so that company can distribute it out later when you need it.[/QUOTE]The thing is, one has a CHOICE to do that. The government telling you to go eat a dick and taking your money for healthcare with via taxes is NOT okay.

[quote name='dmaul1114']They're are a lot of people who think people should just look after themselves and if they can't make it tough shit--survival of the fittest.

I don't agree with that mindset at all, but it's not like he is unique in his line of thinking. Many people think that way.[/QUOTE]
Yep.
 
Actually, providing health care for EVERYONE may actually be cheaper than providing health care for less than everyone.

For one thing, there are no profits. The billions in profits from the health care industry actually get put to use. Secondly, additional billions can be saved in administrative costs. We spend far, far more than anyone else in the world per capita and we're not seeing benifits from it.

Whats the difference between this and the government taking your money for use in the military, in firefighting/police, in building a road in Alaska, without your permission. Do you have a choice in that? Anything the government does with your taxes is largely out of your control, outside of voting for representatives to help set the policy.

If you're against abortion, Planned Parenthood receives hundreds of millions of federal dollars annually. Thems the breaks.

For Profit Health Plans Deliver Lower Quality Care Than Not For Profit Plans
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']For those of you who dont like socialistic policies, consider just what the concept of insurance IS:

Everyone pooling their money together (in the coffers of one company), so that company can distribute it out later when you need it.[/QUOTE]

Yes but the difference is, it isn't the law (usually) to pay it.

But otherwise, I'm with Ramastoria on this one. I acknowledge health care needs reformation. But I haven't studied it enough to say what the solution is.
 
countries and their health care plans:
healthcareworldbigde3.jpg
I'm sure there are plenty of people in every other industrialized country in the world that arent very happy with their solution. However, I imagine that it has to be far less than half, since they had to vote to get it in place in the first place. Plus, they could always move to the US.
 
Having only private health insurance is like having only private fire departments. Well, not quite -- if some people were born with a trait that made their house catch on fire every couple hours and private fire departments deemed it unprofitable to help them, then it'd be the same.
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']countries and their health care plans:
healthcareworldbigde3.jpg
I'm sure there are plenty of people in every other industrialized country in the world that arent very happy with their solution. However, I imagine that it has to be far less than half, since they had to vote to get it in place in the first place. Plus, they could always move to the US.[/QUOTE]

Hmm. Something is fishy with your map, I'm pretty sure my wife's country (Estonia) has Universal health care. They must be using some odd criteria.

All I know is universal health care is fantastic and works beautifully in countries that have small enough populations and large enough GDP to do it right.
 
[quote name='Liquid 2']I feel that I'd rather have this country be destroyed than become more of a socialist state than it already is.

fuck socialized health care.

Reform could help, so long as it's not a socialist solution, but at the same time, it could make things much worse.[/QUOTE]

While I see your reaction, it's simply silly to write off a program on the notion that it would cost us "more."

Let's be real. You're 18, so you probably don't understand the real costs of comprehensive health care for yourself, let alone those who aren't in ideal health or at an age where the premiums are high.

My personal opinion on the entire health care issue is torn. I think an ideal program would be a hybrid universal health care at the level of preventative care - everyone should have access to that at any point in time.

Continue medicaire/medicaid. Rescind the part of the medicaid bill that happened under Bush that makes it illegal to import pharms from Canada, and the part where the government is unable to negotiate the cost of pharms (!!! I never fuckin' understood that - I mean, I do, but the balls of the right-wingers to do that to the voters' faces!).

Above preventative care, keep insurance in place. See how that program works.

Now, on a personal level, I'd love to do anything that fucks over health insurance companies and pharmaceuticals. fuck both of those industries to hell. But in the meantime, keep some semblance of the program we have in place, if only to see how people latch onto it.

I'd like to have a fully socialized system, but I'd like to see an element of personal responsibility added to it, like insurance. If you choose to engage in risk factor-heightening behavior (smoke cigarettes, drink alcohol, etc.), you pay more into it. If people tend to ignore socialized/pseudo-"free" preventative care and wait out their illnesses until they go straight into high-cost care to repair something that should have been an easy fix 6-12 months prior had it been seen, then there should be ramifications for that.

More or less similar to the insurance industry, but without the "if we deny you medical care, we make MONEY!" incentive.
 
The healthcare system needs to focus on preventive care. It's a win-win for all involved. The cost of curing something rises exponentially as time goes on.

For example: they've repeated this study again and again with the same result - for newly identified diabetes patients, an automated call system (with a nurse on the line if requested) calls them at regular intervals to checkup and see whether they are checking their glucose levels, checking their feet, and generally have any questions. This statistically improves monitoring and decreases the risk of costly complications later on. It works and it saves money! So does the patchwork healthcare system with it's constantly battling doctors, specialists, and health insurance companies finally come together to implement this great preventive care for this specific condition nationwide? Of course not.

Now - I know some of you will say that diabetes people should just monitor themselves on their own and it's their own fault if they can't follow the routine on their own. Frankly, if automated calls decrease health complications (like foot problems and even blindness) and the overall cost of health care, I really don't care much about assigning responsibility or pointing fingers. Let's go preventive - we treat the customer with more respect, provide more information for more informed decisions/choices and win in the finance department as well.
 
[quote name='Liquid 2']I'd like to highlight the quality of thought that went into the above two posts.[/QUOTE]

I would rather you tell us about how you would like to see my country destroyed.

Go on.

We will wait.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']You forgot Poland.[/QUOTE]
...
All I know is universal health care is fantastic and works beautifully in countries that have small enough populations and large enough GDP to do it right.
Click to expand...

It would work fine in the US, assuming guys like you and liquid do not go around firebombing hospitals.
 
[quote name='Koggit']My make-or-break issue in this election is health care. I want to know what everyone thinks.

I feel as though it's the most important issue in America right now, and from what I've seen it seems few understand what's wrong and what needs to be done to fix it.

I don't want to state my stance just yet -- I just want to know what you think.[/QUOTE]

Personally, I think that Medicaid should be better regulated (you wouldn't believe how easy it is to get it) and also time-limited unless you can prove without a doubt that you are definitely and truly permanently disabled. Also, it would be nice to see the government give some big tax breaks to corporations who offer premium insurance for all (and I mean ALL) of their employees and maybe lesser ones to corporations who offer more expensive but still discounted insurance.
 
[quote name='Liquid 2']I'd like to highlight the quality of thought that went into the above two posts.[/quote]
I'm sorry. I must have misunderstood your intentions for quality discussion when you posted this well thought out gem:
fuck socialized health care.
Click to expand...

The thing is, one has a CHOICE to do that. The government telling you to go eat a dick and taking your money for healthcare with via taxes is NOT okay.
Click to expand...
As opposed to everything else that they take your money and tell you to eat a dick for.

I can't even tolerate philosophical libertarians that think they matter after this bailout. Libertarianism has been snuffed out by modern conservatism. It might have been cute once to hear them babble about Ayn Rand, but that's shit's dead as a door nail. In the face of reality, there is no libertarianism. And life's too damn short to keep pretending it's a viable, REALISTIC option. They will rape you every chance they get. They always have and they always will. There's a hole in libertarian practicum so wide I can drive a 700 billion dollar truck through it.

But... it's not OK!

Please. Find me something that is.
 
[quote name='squid']I never quite understood why everyone fears universal healthcare. Is it just the insane fear of taxes? Or fear the government is controlling more than you think it should?[/QUOTE]

I think it's a little of both.
 
[quote name='RAMSTORIA']I think it's a little of both.[/QUOTE]

Two things are always guaranteed when you put government in control of something:

1- They will always spend far far more than is necessary, because they can. And we pay for it.

2- The quality of what's being offered, comparatively, will go down the toilet.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']Two things are always guaranteed when you put government in control of something:

1- They will always spend far far more than is necessary, because they can. And we pay for it.

2- The quality of what's being offered, comparatively, will go down the toilet.[/quote]

One word retort - Enron
 
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