How is buying preowned games considered as supporting the companies?

Max Spider X

Max Spider X

CAGiversary!
People diss on piracy because it's considered stealing since developers don't get the proceeds from the sale. It's perfectly fine to purchase preowned games, but the companies won't earn your money again in this case. So how is that ok?
 
I 100% agree, when you buy a preowned game, you line gamestops pockets, when you pirate games, nobody profits, either eay the published gets screwed.
 
There's not much difference from the publishers standpoint. The main difference is one is legal and one is not.

I get most of my games off of Goozex and don't feel bad about it at all. Hardly game at all these days and I'm just not willing to put much cash on it and don't give two shits about supporting publishers.
 
Both are bad but piracy is still much worse. Many people sell their games to stores like gamestop to get new games. Also, it is not uncommon for a person to buy a new game if they cannot find a used copy. So if person A goes in and buys the last used copy, person B will buy the new copy. This second point is moot however, if all used game sales become impossible with digital distribution. However, DDist. would put too much power into the hands of publishers who may resort to horrible DRM schemes and never lower prices.
 
I'd have no broblem if there was no used market for games. However, drop the price for new to around $25-$30 a game or else forget it. At that price I'd buy new games and be happy to keep them. Even the ones that you find out suck.
 
I think the best guide for this is whether you want to see the developer make another game, or another game in the series. If the game does well, the publishers will give them more money.

Also, with used games, SOMEONE bought it new, so the publisher still gets money.
 
They touched on this topic on the 1up podcast. Honestly, I have no problems buying a used car, used books, or anything else second hand. Developers need to get rid of their its a brand new game, its automatically $60 mentality. To each his own on how they place a value on a game but, next years nba/madden/mlb/fifa/nhl isn't worth $60, neither is 3/4 of the generic shooters that are put out.

Steam showed with L4D, if you lower the price more people would buy it. I Don't understand why more publishers haven't caught onto this already. Than again EA has just realized that releasing all their games in the 4th quarter might not be the best strategy.
 
There is a difference between selling more and making more profit. Valve does both with the specials, but I figured I'd point that out.

If I recall, with a 50% price reduction, their profits actually doubled. That means sales quadrupled. Of course, with digital versions, you don't have to worry about things like packaging materials and shipping them, so not all publishers can really turn such a profit.
[quote name='homeland']
Steam showed with L4D, if you lower the price more people would buy it. I Don't understand why more publishers haven't caught onto this already. Than again EA has just realized that releasing all their games in the 4th quarter might not be the best strategy.[/quote]

I get all my games on Goozex too. I pay $1 to get the game and then $2 to ship it and get my points back.
 
Its simple, used is legal, piracy is not. As a consumer, I only need to worry about my wallet, not some software company's profit. Its their responsibility to worry about the used market, not mine. They can drop the new price from $60, which is too high for many titles. They can offer DLC several months down the road to encourage people retain their copies. They can offer additional value to those who buy the game new such as special costume codes, bonus levels, soundtracks, etc.

In other words, what can the game company do for ME to make me want to buy a game new, not what can I do for a game company. I am the customer, if you want my business, earn it.
 
While buying a used game doesn't profit the company when you buy it, someone had to have bought that game new to sell it used. At some point, someone paid the company money for the game. With piracy, at no point does the company ever get any money from it.

Sure, you could argue that your not supporting said company. You'd have to make the same argument for all used media and then you end up with a straw man argument. Whether you pirate or not isn't of my concern, but trying to justify it with a paper thin argument like this is crap.
 
Your argument doesn't have any grounds. The purchase of a new game doesn't depend on whether or not I buy it used or pirate it. Me buying more used games doesn't mean more games will be sold as new. From a publisher's standpoint, there is no difference between a used copy and a pirated copy; either way they didn't get a sale.

I'd actually think the publishers would prefer piracy because at least that way, GS doesn't get money. If people that bought used pirated, GS would fold and there would be no market for used games.

[quote name='Shady3011']While buying a used game doesn't profit the company when you buy it, someone had to have bought that game new to sell it used. At some point, someone paid the company money for the game. With piracy, at no point does the company ever get any money from it.

Sure, you could argue that your not supporting said company. You'd have to make the same argument for all used media and then you end up with a straw man argument. Whether you pirate or not isn't of my concern, but trying to justify it with a paper thin argument like this is crap.[/quote]
 
[quote name='Kayden']Your argument doesn't have any grounds. The purchase of a new game doesn't depend on whether or not I buy it used or pirate it. Me buying more used games doesn't mean more games will be sold as new. From a publisher's standpoint, there is no difference between a used copy and a pirated copy; either way they didn't get a sale.

I'd actually think the publishers would prefer piracy because at least that way, GS doesn't get money. If people that bought used pirated, GS would fold and there would be no market for used games.[/QUOTE]

Except for the fact that GS continues to be a major market for new game sales, or else you wouldn't see companies supporting them with pre-order bonuses. As for used game sales, you can chalk the rise of premium DLC up to used game sales. No, they might not be able to sell you Oblivion new, but they might be able to sell you horse armor once you've bought it used.

Basically, companies have to figure out a way to deal with these new developments. For those who say they don't care how they survive, well, you're likely the reason we have crazy DRM on new PC games. And then in turn try to use that to justify pirating games. Idiots.
 
[quote name='elwood731']Except for the fact that GS continues to be a major market for new game sales, or else you wouldn't see companies supporting them with pre-order bonuses. As for used game sales, you can chalk the rise of premium DLC up to used game sales. No, they might not be able to sell you Oblivion new, but they might be able to sell you horse armor once you've bought it used.

Basically, companies have to figure out a way to deal with these new developments. For those who say they don't care how they survive, well, you're likely the reason we have crazy DRM on new PC games. And then in turn try to use that to justify pirating games. Idiots.[/quote]

Interesting point... I concur.
 
[quote name='Kayden'] Me buying more used games doesn't mean more games will be sold as new.
[/quote]
It does to a certain extent. If a person does not pirate, like myself, and they cannot find a game used because other people bought all the used products, they, like myself, will buy it new.
 
[quote name='J7.']It does to a certain extent. If a person does not pirate, like myself, and they cannot find a game used because other people bought all the used products, they, like myself, will buy it new.[/QUOTE]

has that ever happened? where there are absolutely no used copies of a game that you can easily buy new?
 
When developers learn how to drop the prices of their games I'll learn how to buy more new copies of games and be willing to support them.

All of my DS games are brand new outside of Ninja Gaiden that I got on Gamefly thanks to the fake carts on eBay, and the fact I couldn't find Ninja Gaiden so damn cheap elsewhere.

360 almost all of my games are new as of recent except: Battle Fantasia (How is this game $40 still if it only sold like 7k copies in the US? Arksys can eat me, granted I might pre-order BlazBlue) and Unreal Tournament (Come on dude, $10?)
 
I bet that the success of the used game market helps inflate the consumer's perceptions of a game's value. Most publishers seem to value their first-run games at $60/copy, whereas consumers may value the same game at only $30/copy. The difference is comprised of perceived residual value that will allow the consumer to recoup some of the loss in value realized when purchasing the game.

Businesses like GameStop, which many game publishers seek to marginalize (or wish to do away with all together), ultimately serve the goals of the publishers by helping to keep the prices inflated.
 
It's very rare to see handheld games drop in price...unless its' on the PSP. I hear it has games now. And a few are coming.

All games should not be priced the same. A Tomb Raider is not going to sell as many copies at $60 as say a Resident Evil 5. They might be the same length, but one is regarded as higher quality for your dollar.
 
[quote name='Oktoberfest']has that ever happened? where there are absolutely no used copies of a game that you can easily buy new?[/quote]
Many times. I don't want to deal with ebay so maybe that's why. Not everyone buys used games online. Also, there are instances when the copy of a used game may not be in great condition or complete.
 
Ah, the good ol' "Used Games are Evil" topic. Personally, I buy almost all of my games used or on clearance (hence, why I am on CAG). I have no problem buying used games, however, I do understand that when I do buy used I am not exactly helping fund new game development. This doesn't bother me though, and the reason is this; I think that for the most part, game developers are not keeping up their end of the bargain. Let me explain.

Most games sell the bulk of their retail copies within their first three months of release. So, it follows that for used game sales to truly be a problem for a game's bottom line, people would be trading that game back in within 3 months of buying it. Why would a consumer do that? Two main reasons in my view; either the game is deficient in quality, or it is deficient in length. If a game is shitty, nobody is going to keep it even if it is 100 hours long. Likewise, if a game is great but is only 5 hours long (I'm looking at you Heavenly Sword) why the hell would you keep it?

When developers start making more games that people want to keep longer than a month, they will solve their own problem as far as used games go.
 
I buy new games all the time... when they're actually worth the $50/$60 fucking dollars.

There's just such a rush of releases these days, it's pretty hard to justify paying $60 for a "good" game when there are 20 other games just as "good". So I only support a company when they decide to put out a "great" or "excellent" game.
 
[quote name='kidu']Most games sell the bulk of their retail copies within their first three months of release. So, it follows that for used game sales to truly be a problem for a game's bottom line, people would be trading that game back in within 3 months of buying it. Why would a consumer do that? Two main reasons in my view; either the game is deficient in quality, or it is deficient in length. If a game is shitty, nobody is going to keep it even if it is 100 hours long. Likewise, if a game is great but is only 5 hours long (I'm looking at you Heavenly Sword) why the hell would you keep it?

When developers start making more games that people want to keep longer than a month, they will solve their own problem as far as used games go.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, but this is a rather silly argument. For example, most spend $15 on a DVD of a 2-hour film. So, a 5 hour game is worth at least $30 by that logic. A 10 hour game is worth $60. Going to the theater is an even worse deal. $10 for one ticket to see something for two hours once. Compare that value to a 10 hour game you can play with friends.
 
The main thing about preowned games is that they keep customers playing titles. The games that get sold back the most are ones that don't have much replay value (or DLC to keep it fresh). So to me you take a game that's pure single player, not that much replay value, they get played, get forgotten about. Now at a cheaper used price, they have a chance of falling into the hands of someone that missed it's launch. It gives the devs a little brand recognition, and it increases the chances of the person that bought it used possibly buying a sequel or another IP new (from the same dev). Also, if companies don't want their games to be sold used, then keep it fresh with DLC. If you can get a person to spend 5 or 10 dollars in DLC, then they might not sell it back used. Burnout is the perfect example... they had continuous DLC, and they made the game available for download via PSN / XBLM at a discounted rate. Other games could release the game for download, and maybe throw in some free DLC content. The main thing benefit of preowned games is that it keeps people playing the title. Devs should be exploring ways to keep games fresh. Online MP is usually the trick, but its really a matter of how creative they want to be in regards to their software sales.
 
What if you do a site like Yourfree360games.com? how does that hurt? I've must of got 3 or 4 games for free that way. I don't feel bad why? well for example one was NHL 09 which is EA and what does EA do every year? Put out basically the same game for $59.99 each year. How am I hurting them? I'm not hurting them I'm saving my ass. Maybe I'm asking too much, but when you make a game like Socom which is Multiplayer only and make it $40 I have no problems getting it used and them not getting money because there are plenty of other suckers that pay full price and their pockets are lined.

[quote name='Pojomofo']I 100% agree, when you buy a preowned game, you line gamestops pockets, when you pirate games, nobody profits, either eay the published gets screwed.[/quote]

Wha... ? Who buys from G$... only pocket I line since I save money is my pocket.
 
That's only free to you. YF3G buys it from amazon on your behalf using advertising revenue.

[quote name='VipFREAK']What if you do a site like Yourfree360games.com? how does that hurt? I've must of got 3 or 4 games for free that way. I don't feel bad why? well for example one was NHL 09 which is EA and what does EA do every year? Put out basically the same game for $59.99 each year. How am I hurting them? I'm not hurting them I'm saving my ass. Maybe I'm asking too much, but when you make a game like Socom which is Multiplayer only and make it $40 I have no problems getting it used and them not getting money because there are plenty of other suckers that pay full price and their pockets are lined.



Wha... ? Who buys from G$... only pocket I line since I save money is my pocket.[/quote]
 
I agree with several posters here: Game publishers should stop complaining about the used gaming market. It's normal just like cars, houses, land and pretty much any other object that has value. Find me a product look atractive enough or cheap enough and I'll get it new, otherwise, why bother? Bills don't get paid by themselves you know.

Also, I think the DLC argument is pretty good. Take me for example: I bought Mass Effect used, but I bought the DLC for it. It's a small amount of money... but them again, if they made more DLC for it, I'd probably buy it. Maybe if they announced a couple of DLC per year, that would also make people hold on to their games, but maybe it wouldn't be cost-effective, I don't know.

I don't see how GameStop closing would help them anyway... someone else would probably just fill their spot anyway.

One more thing: although myself I do not support piracy, I do not look down on it also. Especially for people who live in other countries, the cost of gaming is just too much to bear, and I feel that they should be given a chance to experience the games. In an ideal world, people who could afford to pay for it would pay for it, but we all know that if piracy were easier and repression lower, everybody would do it... so, yeah, I don't like it, but I can't blame it.
 
[quote name='elwood731']Sorry, but this is a rather silly argument. For example, most spend $15 on a DVD of a 2-hour film. So, a 5 hour game is worth at least $30 by that logic. A 10 hour game is worth $60. Going to the theater is an even worse deal. $10 for one ticket to see something for two hours once. Compare that value to a 10 hour game you can play with friends.[/QUOTE]

That's true for sure. But I've never liked the comparison as "value" has to also consider how much you enjoy stuff. It's not just simple monetary cost per hour of entertainment and different things have different entertainment value to different people.

For instance I like movies much more than games. I could lose my ability to play games tomorrow and not miss it much at all (haven't touched a game in a month). But I love movies and would never give them up.

So I'd drop $10 for a ticket to see a movie I really want to see or $15-25 on a DVD/Blu Ray of a movie I love much more readily than I'd drop money on a game more often than not.
 
I don't know why Piracy comes up with consoles anymore, they've choked it out so much it's a waste of time... Unless you like offline only gaming I suppose.
 
[quote name='VipFREAK']I don't know why Piracy comes up with consoles anymore, they've choked it out so much it's a waste of time... Unless you like offline only gaming I suppose.[/quote]

Not true with the Wii, and the 360 is questionable.
 
Houses and land actually go up in value... barring extenuating circumstances, so there's a bit of a difference there.
[quote name='Achuba Nanoia']I agree with several posters here: Game publishers should stop complaining about the used gaming market. It's normal just like cars, houses, land and pretty much any other object that has value. Find me a product look atractive enough or cheap enough and I'll get it new, otherwise, why bother? Bills don't get paid by themselves you know.

Also, I think the DLC argument is pretty good. Take me for example: I bought Mass Effect used, but I bought the DLC for it. It's a small amount of money... but them again, if they made more DLC for it, I'd probably buy it. Maybe if they announced a couple of DLC per year, that would also make people hold on to their games, but maybe it wouldn't be cost-effective, I don't know.

I don't see how GameStop closing would help them anyway... someone else would probably just fill their spot anyway.

One more thing: although myself I do not support piracy, I do not look down on it also. Especially for people who live in other countries, the cost of gaming is just too much to bear, and I feel that they should be given a chance to experience the games. In an ideal world, people who could afford to pay for it would pay for it, but we all know that if piracy were easier and repression lower, everybody would do it... so, yeah, I don't like it, but I can't blame it.[/quote]
 
Its as simple as this for myself. There are so many games that come out that dont have me completely sold on whether I want to buy it new or not. The fact that I can always turn around and sell it on Amazon and only lose $10 on the deal usually seals the deal. So I buy a new title.

On the other hand, if selling used games was not possible/allowed, I would never consider purchasing MOST the titles I have. So with out the option of selling used games I think they would take a bigger loss then they do now just from that alone.
 
[quote name='Oktoberfest']has that ever happened? where there are absolutely no used copies of a game that you can easily buy new?[/quote]
Of course! When a new release comes out, gamestop doesnt have used copies in stock in the first week, most of the time.
 
Used game sales are doing great because publishers charge too much for games. This is the MARKET. Supply and demand. Publishers want to engage in price fixing. Think about WHY are all games $60 when they come out?!?!? Do all games cost the same to develop? Nope. So, why the same price? Its industry wide price fixing. And don't tell me that games like sequels cost the same. A lot of the time they are using the same code, engines, etc as the previous game. How many sequels have you played and been like, "this is not all that different"? They are just trying to milk consumers. If publishers had reasonable prices, then THAT is the way to kill the used market. I have no problem paying $30 for the average new game. If it provides more play time then more.
 
[quote name='Kayden']From a publisher's standpoint, there is no difference between a used copy and a pirated copy; either way they didn't get a sale.[/quote]Unless you're buying a copy that was originally stolen, a used game was sold at least once and the publisher/retailer was paid on it.
 
[quote name='musha666']Its as simple as this for myself. There are so many games that come out that dont have me completely sold on whether I want to buy it new or not. The fact that I can always turn around and sell it on Amazon and only lose $10 on the deal usually seals the deal. So I buy a new title.

On the other hand, if selling used games was not possible/allowed, I would never consider purchasing MOST the titles I have. So with out the option of selling used games I think they would take a bigger loss then they do now just from that alone.[/quote]Exactly. On the recent Listen Up podcast they failed to mention this aspect: the ability of players to sell their used games and get *some* value out of it allows them to put the money to buying new games. While I would never "flip" a newish game at GameStop to get $25 credit on a game I paid $60 for, plenty of gamers do, and it's worth it for them so they can "reinvest" that credit in a new game. I bet many would share musha's view on the matter and *stop* buying most new games if they couldn't sell them back if desired.
 
The other thing is that the retailers have already paid the companies for the games. It isn't like they are actually losing any money from someone buying used since all of those copies have already been purchased. Really the only companies that lose money on new games would be the retailer when they have to cut their prices on the games a lot to clear the inventory.
 
[quote name='homeland']Not true with the Wii, and the 360 is questionable.[/quote]

It's actually pretty easy on the 360 granted you don't mind paying for someone to modify your DVD drive's firmware. You could do it yourself, but there's a lot more to it than just stack smashing.
 
[quote name='Shady3011']It's actually pretty easy on the 360 granted you don't mind paying for someone to modify your DVD drive's firmware. You could do it yourself, but there's a lot more to it than just stack smashing.[/QUOTE]

And assuming you don't take it on Live where it may get banned.
 
Remember that CAG.com is a somewhat isolated community. We are mostly legitimate buyers unwilling to pay full price. This means we're as a whole not supportive of piracy, nor $60 per game. That said, I support used games sales, and here's why (many of them already mentioned):
1) Used games don't just materialize. They were once new games.
2) Used games are purchased by people that wouldn't buy them new, even if used weren't available, usually in the case of buyer uncertainty regarding the game's quality.
3) Remember that the video game industry is, in fact, and industry, and that you can't completely separate its components. When GameStop does well, GameStop buys more games, which in turn means profit for distributor, publisher, and developer.
4) Because of this, any activity related to games (used at GS, used on eBay, new, etc) ultimately means more profit for the ENTIRE industry indirectly. Used activity is better than no activity.
5) As mentioned, consumers venturing on used games turns into brand, dev, and publisher recognition (as well as store loyalty). For instance, had I not bought Devil May Cry 1 and 3 used, I may never have bought DMC4 at all. And I would not have bought DMC1/3 new (partly because it would not have even been available). Anyone in marketing can tell you that brand recognition of any sort is an EXTREMLY important factor in sales. It cannot be underestimated. Imagine what fraction of sales BioWare would've seen on Knights of the Old Republic if it weren't a Star Wars game.
6) Also as mentioned, it is not the consumer's responsibility to act in the dev/pub's interest. A publisher shall request nothing from the consumer and thank him or her when they do support them. This is basic marketing and basic customer service. If a business is begging you to help them by acting outside your own financial and entertainment interests, they are not good businessmen and are probably throwing away what profits you did provide them with by using other poor business practices.
6b) With the above said, it is reasonable to direct your finances such that they profit your business of choice. Given similar price tags, it makes sense to choose the purchase option that profits the developer (e.g. don't buy a used game at $55 instead of a new one at $60).
6c) (rant) I'm sick of bleeding heart gamers talking about "support support support!" If a developer can't provide you with entertainment for a reasonable price now, why on EARTH would you throw more money at them so that they'll gouge you again later? (Certain anime DVD prices come to mind). Instead, promote the general purchase of your favorite game, not buying it new or from a certain place. More sales is still more sales. It's not like the publishers don't know how well a game does post-production.
7) Reducing or eliminating used game sales would not significantly decrease the cost of a new game. Prior to used game sales popularity, rentals were much more popular. Game rentals are still pretty popular today, and devs/pubs/dists support rentals because it's profitable.
 
[quote name='Shady3011']They've figured out ways around that as well.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but I imagine it's an ongoing game of cat and mouse.

They figure something out, MS detects it and bans machines and that modded machines. They change the modding again and are safe for a while etc.

Really just doesn't seem worth the effort. Just use Goozex and other ways to get games cheaply.
 
[quote name='Gentlegamer']Unless you're buying a copy that was originally stolen, a used game was sold at least once and the publisher/retailer was paid on it.[/QUOTE]
a ripped game could be bought at least once as well, the files comes from somewhere
 
[quote name='crystalklear64']a ripped game could be bought at least once as well, the files comes from somewhere[/QUOTE]

1. Some come from leaks.

2. A pirated game put on a torrent is going to be used by a LOT more people than any one copy of a game that was legally bought and then sold use. It will eventually get grabbed by someone who's a packrat and keeps every game they buy.

Where say one person buys the game puts it, then tons of other people steal from that copy. Then some of those people put up torrents of their own etc. So the pirated copy reaches a ton more people than the copy that was played and then sold/traded in.
 
Strictly from the perspective of supporting a publisher/developer, I don't see a difference between used games and pirated games. They get zero dollars, period.

The main difference most people are stating is that 1 is legal, 1 is not. But honestly, legality rarely deters people from doing one thing or another, but more the likelihood that one could get caught.

How many people do you know under 21 who abstain from drinking purely for legal reasons?

How many people do you know that don't smoke weed or use other illegal substances purely for legal reasons?

Probably none, unless they already got in trouble for it before and are on probation or something like that. So the argument that anything that's against the law and therefore one shouldn't do it doesn't really hold up to the average person - it has far more to do with a sense of morals and/or a sense of consequence, either one or the other or a combination of the two.

I'm not advocating piracy by any means, for the record, and still buy my share of used games, but I'm always slightly confused by the people who denounce piracy and all software pirates should go to hell, etc but then rave about the deal they got on a used game.

This is because the primary reason one should oppose piracy is because it does hurt the developer/publisher, such as when a 360 game leaks a week or two early and tons of people play it for free before it even comes out - you can bet that a majority of them don't plan on buying it, especially new. But if one only intends to buy games used, then it's still leaving the pub/dev with zero dollars.

The answer to either case is that games cost too damned much. People wouldn't be tempted to pirate games if they were more affordable, and would also be more willing to purchase them new.

[quote name='elwood731']Sorry, but this is a rather silly argument. For example, most spend $15 on a DVD of a 2-hour film. So, a 5 hour game is worth at least $30 by that logic. A 10 hour game is worth $60. Going to the theater is an even worse deal. $10 for one ticket to see something for two hours once. Compare that value to a 10 hour game you can play with friends.[/quote]

Well, that assumes someone's willing to spend $15 on a DVD or $9-12 on a movie ticket. I probably do that once a year, if at all, so that doesn't make a difference to me. But a 10 hour game sure as hell isn't worth $60 to me, or most games for that matter.
 
[quote name='johnnypark']Strictly from the perspective of supporting a publisher/developer, I don't see a difference between used games and pirated games. They get zero dollars, period.
[/quote]

I outlined why there's a monetary difference to them in the wrong run in the post above. A legally bought game that's sold/traded and passed around will reach fewer people than a game that is bought, ripped and put on a torrent. Someone will eventually keep the used game for good. The ripped copy reaches tons of people as it gets passed around torrents etc.


Well, that assumes someone's willing to spend $15 on a DVD or $9-12 on a movie ticket. I probably do that once a year, if at all, so that doesn't make a difference to me. But a 10 hour game sure as hell isn't worth $60 to me, or most games for that matter.
Click to expand...

Agreed, like I said early the $/hour of entertainment is flawed.

I'm happy to pay $10 for a movie ticket or $15-25 for a DVD or Blu Ray, but seldom willing to spend even $20 on a game. My interest in games has declined so I just wait and get stuff on Goozex. $1 to request a game, $2.20 or so to ship games out.
 
[quote name='crystalklear64']a ripped game could be bought at least once as well, the files comes from somewhere[/quote]
A used game can only belong to one person at a time. A ripped game can be seeded from a single copy.
 
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