Iraqi Prisoner Abuse

My opinions? Well, what those soldiers did reflects the image of the commander-in-chief. It give me a bad image towards our commander. BUT, I don't blame it to anyone, it's human nature.
 
I sure our military is not doing anything as bad as what the iraqes would do to a US soilder if he was taken prisoner
 
[quote name='TiKi2']I sure our military is not doing anything as bad as what the iraqes would do to a US soilder if he was taken prisoner[/quote]

You might not read the news here. The comparison between which one is worse really depends on the person. Americans might think the Iraqi with Physical abuse is worse, but the Iraqi and moslem think Americans way of torture (degrading their pride as a human and religious being) are far worse than physical torture.
 
I guess I'd better not even post my opinion. I'm extremly liberal (raised that way), and I'd just piss people that don't want to hear different opinions off. Sigh.
 
[quote name='TiKi2']I sure our military is not doing anything as bad as what the iraqes would do to a US soilder if he was taken prisoner[/quote]

That still doesn't justify what these few are doing. Rumsfeild also might be to blame, since he knew about this for months and didn't do anything about it. Plus he won't even apologize.
 
[quote name='btantra']BUT, I don't blame it to anyone, it's human nature.[/quote]

Would that be a valid defense in a rape trial?

Being civilized means rejecting part of human nature; for a society to function, we must become better than what we are by nature.
 
"Under the terrible stresses of war, there are some in every country who commit atrocities. The difference is that Americans are upset, ashamed, or angry when their troops do it, while people in some Middle Eastern countries danced in the streets on 9/11 and when the bodies of dead American civilians were dragged through the streets in Iraq."
-Thomas Sowell
 
Yeah I like Sen. Bob Ney's question of where this big world outrage was when those civilian contractors were killed. Yes, it was wrong and against the code of military justice I'm sure, yet it happens in all wars to be honest and like someone said earlier it's basically a part of human nature cruel though it may be.
 
[quote name='eldad9']
Would that be a valid defense in a rape trial?

Being civilized means rejecting part of human nature; for a society to function, we must become better than what we are by nature.[/quote]


I am not saying that it's a valid defense. I am just saying that I don't blame it on anyone since, you realize it or not and consciously or subconsciously, violence is part of human nature.
 
[quote name='The_Continental']"Under the terrible stresses of war, there are some in every country who commit atrocities. The difference is that Americans are upset, ashamed, or angry when their troops do it, while people in some Middle Eastern countries danced in the streets on 9/11 and when the bodies of dead American civilians were dragged through the streets in Iraq."
-Thomas Sowell[/quote]

The "dancing in the streets" at 9/11 was stock footage of something previous to 9/11. Most video you saw was edited their by the media, to make viewers feel "angry." After all, it's all about ratings.

I'm not saying their wern't people that were pleased with the events of 9/11, it's just that the images shown were not correct.
 
[quote name='evilmax17']I'm gonna try to stay out of this thread as much as possible, but I WILL say that you're all idiots.[/quote]

If you don't have an opinion or afraid to say what you have in mind considering this is a liberal country with freedom of speech that might make you the idiot. We have opinions and I think our discussions are expressed as intelligently as possible. So, it's impossible that we are the idiots here.
 
Nothing I've seen could be categorized as torture. Most of it is of the college fraternity hazing level. You know what I say? Tough shit Mr. . Don't forget these people were in jail for trying to kill or having killed Americans or even Iraqi or other foreign nationals. It's not like we pulled people out of shops, mosques or theaters took them to jail and started doing this to them.

Where was this outcry when a pair of sadistic sons were dipping people through plastic shredders? Where was this outcry when we uncovered rape rooms, mass graves and elctro torture devices? Where was the outcry when we were uncovering hundreds of thousands of people in mass graves? Did you see protests over the former government? Did you see mass retribution to former Saddam henchmen? Was their any outpouring of thanks to the U.S.?

The American left is so spineless and whimpy. This isn't a campaign issue. We're all embarassed by it. We all thought our troops would act more responsibly. We addressed it, we'll move on. This isn't a Mai Lai massacre or any TRUE war crime. The President found out about this on TV, it was a breakdown in communication from the bottom up and a big case of CYA. For anyone to say this is due to Bush just plain out doesn't understand how the military works and is so blinded by pure partisan hatred as to be irrational.
 
[quote name='evilmax17']I'm gonna try to stay out of this thread as much as possible, but I WILL say that you're all idiots.[/quote]

muahahahahahahha...
Preach, Brother, Preach!
 
I think we are supposed to be better than that. Even though they do the same things we are the country going in there trying to make things right. THis is not how we should have acted.

Oh yeah I am in a fraternity and we never made anyone get all naked and huddle together, that is just as AWESOMO would say LAME
 
[quote name='CoffeeEdge']Why?[/quote]

Guess I'd better clarify my opinion before bowwing out gracefully.

Anybody who isn't willing to blame the people involved, because it's "human nature" to get prisioners naked, put dog leashes around their necks and women's panties on their heads, and to then pose superiorly behind them and take MULTIPLE photographs of it. Yes, that is human nature. :fridge:

It's the fault of every soldier / commander involved. People who tried to justify America going to war in Iraq to "set a better example for the world" or to "promote freedom" should realize that this has just completely destroyed the credibility of these reasons. If anything, this just proves to the world that America is no more civilized or less barbaric than the people that we're supposed to be freeing.

Human nature? I've never stripped somebody naked in an attempt to strip them of their humanity, have you?
 
[quote name='evilmax17']I'm gonna try to stay out of this thread as much as possible, but I WILL say that you're all idiots.[/quote]

I second this notion. I am staying out of the arguments concerning politics here but what the hell...I do agree with EvilMax and..


If you don't have an opinion or afraid to say what you have in mind considering this is a liberal country with freedom of speech that might make you the idiot. We have opinions and I think our discussions are expressed as intelligently as possible. So, it's impossible that we are the idiots here.
Click to expand...

I do believe he did state an opinion whether you think it is intelligent or not has no bearing on the fact that it is an opinion and just as protected under your free speech mumbo jumbo as what you say. He doesnt have to argue with you at all. When we vote we dont have to say why...
 
[quote name='btantra']I am not saying that it's a valid defense. I am just saying that I don't blame it on anyone since, you realize it or not and consciously or subconsciously, violence is part of human nature.[/quote]

So you wouldn't blame a rapist either? You know, part of human nature.

And human nature dictates violence against potential threats or rivals, not against a person completely incapable of causing you any harm.
 
[quote name='CoffeeEdge']I guess I'd better not even post my opinion. I'm extremly liberal (raised that way), and I'd just piss people that don't want to hear different opinions off. Sigh.[/quote]

The worst thing you can do is keep quiet. That's how groups like the neo-conservatives stay in power - by intimidating others into staying silent.

That said, this should not be a partisan issue. Atrocities like these should shock and appall every human being. They should not be tolerated by anyone on either side. The US is going to catch the brunt of the fallout here because we supposedly invaded Iraq to liberate them from a tyrant. Replacing their torture chambers with our own only makes us look like hypocrites.

And has anyone else been reading about the private companies over there who are being allowed to interrogate prisoners? Private companies of mercenaries who are operating outside of military law (and presumedly US law as well)... that is really scary.
 
i saw the news last night and the iraqis were complaing in jail that they had cold water on them and itching powder. thats what happens when u go to jail. cold showers and anti lice powder. maybe if they were used to showers...
 
[quote name='Rodimus Donut'][quote name='The_Continental']"Under the terrible stresses of war, there are some in every country who commit atrocities. The difference is that Americans are upset, ashamed, or angry when their troops do it, while people in some Middle Eastern countries danced in the streets on 9/11 and when the bodies of dead American civilians were dragged through the streets in Iraq."
-Thomas Sowell[/quote]

The "dancing in the streets" at 9/11 was stock footage of something previous to 9/11. Most video you saw was edited their by the media, to make viewers feel "angry." After all, it's all about ratings.

I'm not saying their wern't people that were pleased with the events of 9/11, it's just that the images shown were not correct.[/quote]

Really? Thats funny because I live in Manhattan and I watched the coverage from Newark of the dancing in the street.

It was real.

CTL
 
[quote name='cag1000']i saw the news last night and the iraqis were complaing in jail that they had cold water on them and itching powder. thats what happens when u go to jail. cold showers and anti lice powder. maybe if they were used to showers...[/quote]

That's a very enlightened view...

They are also complaining about being beaten and tortured physically and psychologically. Or at least the ones who haven't been beaten to death are still complaining.
 
In one context, i find it funny. From the veiw of the us troops who are living in hell and are having friends blow up right in front of them, i would find this quite amusing. "Hell, if they were gonna blow themselves away anyways, why dont we make a nude human pyramid.

From another view though, that was the stupidist thing they could have done. Yes, its sucks over there, and im pretty sure just blowing their brains away would be really relaxing, but photographing the humiliation of the people (even the bad ones) that you are trying to free/save is freakin retarded.

so yes, i find it funny in that "Woman who is choking after squishing grapes and falling" kinda way, but i have to admit its THE dumbest thing they could have done.
 
Abuse and the Army

861 words
6 May 2004
The Wall Street Journal
A18
English
(Copyright (c) 2004, Dow Jones & Company, Inc.)

As President Bush and everyone else in America has said, any abuse of Iraqi prisoners is "abhorrent" and should be punished. Yet it seems to us that an overlooked story here, and ultimately the most telling, is the degree to which the U.S. military is investigating itself and holding people accountable.

This isn't a popular thought just now, with the media and politicians in one of their bonfire phases. Every accusation against U.S. troops is now getting front-page treatment. Like reporters at a free buffet, Members of Congress are swarming to the TV cameras to declare their outrage and demand someone's head, usually Donald Rumsfeld's. "System of abuse" and "cover-up" are being tossed about without any evidence of either. The goal seems to be less to punish the offenders than to grab one more reason to discredit the Iraq war.

For a sense of proportion, let's rehearse the timeline here. While some accusations of abuse go back to 2002 in Afghanistan, the incidents at Abu Ghraib that triggered this week's news occurred last autumn. They came to light through the chain of command in Iraq on January 13. An Army criminal probe began a day later. Two days after that, the U.S. Central Command disclosed in a press release that "an investigation has been initiated into reported incidents of detainee abuse at a Coalition Forces detention facility." By March 20, Brigadier-General Mark Kimmitt was able to announce in Baghdad that criminal charges had been brought against six soldiers in the probe.

By the end of January, meanwhile, Major-General Antonio Taguba was appointed to conduct his separate "administrative" probe of procedures at Abu Ghraib. It is his report, complete with its incriminating photos, that is the basis for the past week's news reports. The press didn't break this story based on months of sleuthing but was served up the results of the Army's own investigation.

By February, the Secretary of the Army had ordered the service's inspector general to assess the doctrine and training for detention operations within all of CentCom. A month after that, another probe began into Army Reserve training, especially military police and intelligence. Those reports will presumably also be leaked and reported on, or at least they will be if they reach negative conclusions.

This is a cover-up? Unlike the Catholic bishops, some corporate boards and the editors of the New York Times or USA Today, the military brass did not dismiss early allegations of bad behavior. Instead, it established reviews and procedures that have uncovered the very details that are now used by critics to indict the Pentagon "system." It has done so, moreover, amid a war against a deadly insurgency in which interrogation to gain good intelligence is critical to victory -- and to saving American lives.

None of this is to dismiss or rationalize the abuse reports. Accountability has to run beyond the soldiers immediately responsible and up the Army and intelligence chains of command. The Abu Ghraib procedures were clearly inadequate to a situation in which interrogators were given so much control over the fates of individual prisoners. Especially in a war on terror that will be long and require effective interrogation, this is unacceptable.

Reprimands have already been issued and careers ended, but courts martial can't be ruled out. President Bush's explanation to Arab media yesterday may help our public image, especially given that their own governments rarely admit mistakes. But the best way to impress Iraqis about U.S. purposes is to show that Americans guilty of abuse are being punished, and with more than letters of reprimand.

To start impugning the entire Army and Pentagon, however, is both wrong and dangerous. The majority of American soldiers are professional, disciplined and are risking their lives to win a war. (Note to those who want to revive the draft: If this could happen in today's highly trained volunteer force, imagine the risks in Senator Chuck Hagel's Army of conscripts.)

Another bizarre notion is that Abu Ghraib happened because the Pentagon decided to hold "enemy combatants" under other than "prisoner of war" status. Those detainees are still given Geneva Convention treatment, as well as visits by the Red Cross. The Pentagon has avoided formal Geneva Convention status because it doesn't want al Qaeda and Taliban prisoners to be able to hide behind "name, rank and serial number." As terrorists who attacked civilians and didn't wear a uniform, they also don't deserve the privileges of real soldiers. In any case, the soldiers who posed in those Abu Ghraib photos were clearly too thick to know any of this.

The military has its faults and bad actors, but over the decades it has shown itself to be one of America's most accountable institutions. The Abu Ghraib episode is another test of its fortitude. But the political class would do well to heed Democratic Senator Joe Lieberman, who said yesterday that "This immoral behavior in no way eliminates the justice of our cause in Iraq."
 
[quote name='Wshakspear']so yes, i find it funny in that "Woman who is choking after squishing grapes and falling" kinda way[/quote]

I am SO working that into everyday conversation!
 
[quote name='evilmax17']
Guess I'd better clarify my opinion before bowwing out gracefully.[/quote]

Yeah, wouldn't want to be a hypocrite. I remember posting something similar on another thread, then being called to task by none other than yourself for not clarifying my opinion and defending it.

[quote name='evilmax17']
If anything, this just proves to the world that America is no more civilized or less barbaric than the people that we're supposed to be freeing.[/quote]

As was said before, when we found Americans doing this, we were outraged. I haven't seen a single American voice claim that this was good or the prisoners deserved it.

If we saw the same situation reversed, there would be no outrage on the part of the Iraqi people or any Muslims. When a Muslim nation/group does things like that, it is almost expected. When US forces do it, it is jumped on vengefully (and rightfully so). The US is held to a higher standard, and the handling of the situation proves it.
 
Most Arabs and Muslims would consider being shot in the face a better fate than this :

http://www.drudgereport.com/irr.jpg

http://www.drudgereport.com/irr1.jpg

Let alone having their pictures taken during these acts and having them distributed around the world.

This administration fooled people into believing this invasion had anything to do with WMD's and it became evident very quickly what a load of BS that was.

Then, suddenly, the war was about liberation and freeing Iraq from the rape rooms and torture chambers. And now, after claiming the moral high ground, and rushing into a country to tell them how they should setup their government, we've been caught pulling this crap.

Fighting terrorism? We are creating future terrorism.

This war is a joke, and so is anyone who supports it.
 
It's the fault of every soldier / commander involved. People who tried to justify America going to war in Iraq to "set a better example for the world" or to "promote freedom" should realize that this has just completely destroyed the credibility of these reasons. If anything, this just proves to the world that America is no more civilized or less barbaric than the people that we're supposed to be freeing.

Human nature? I've never stripped somebody naked in an attempt to strip them of their humanity, have you?
Click to expand...

I was referring to torture and war crimes happening during war. These men and women have been in the most violent place in the world for probably about a year, study some psychology and you'll see what the end result of that is. Not everyone does it, I haven't, you haven't. Yet, wait a minute niether has been in a bloody war for this length of time.That's not to say either of us would either. Clearly not every American soldier has doen this. It's just the matter of a few ruining the group. Though the exact occerances of what happened may change, this is something has happened before and happens even during peace time. Corrupt police officers do the same thing to their prisonsors on rare occasions. It happens in greek housing, sports teams, etc. So, by me saying it's human nature I did not mena everyone would do it, just that it is a part of the human psyche for some people.

As for the blame, I don't blame everyone. I don't blame Bush, or Rice. Rumsfield can take some heat for at least not letting people know earlier and maybe curbbing it. Yet not every commander probably knew. And I certianly don't blame every soldier over there involved in the war. Take the poor general who just took over the prison. He had to stand in front of all the international press and apoligize for someone else's foul up. I know I would hate to do that. So, I can't find blame in people like him.
 
[quote name='Hereticked']
This administration fooled people into believing this invasion had anything to do with WMD's and it became evident very quickly what a load of BS that was.

Then, suddenly, the war was about liberation and freeing Iraq from the rape rooms and torture chambers. And now, after claiming the moral high ground, and rushing into a country to tell them how they should setup their government, we've been caught pulling this crap.

Fighting terrorism? We are creating future terrorism.

This war is a joke, and so is anyone who supports it.[/quote]

And the drivel begins.....

CTL
 
[quote name='CTLesq']And the drivel begins.....

CTL[/quote]

No, the drivel began about 3 posts above mine.
 
Does anyone else here think that something about this whole abuse thing just doesn't jive?? I mean, if you were going to torture and humiliate these prisoners, why would you take pictures to incriminate yourselves?? I'm not saying it didn't or doesn't happen, I just think the story seems a little fishy.

Whether its true or not, it is a terrible thing to do. HOWEVER, we must keep in mind these are prisoners, criminals, murderers, whatever...and this pales in comparison to killing innocent civilian contractors and dragging their bodies through the streets and hanging them from bridges.

Oh yeah, one other thing...no one deserves any apologies from our military leaders whatsoever. President Bush has said that the proper punishment will be given to those found to have committed these abuses (if any). That should be plenty. He has indicated that this sort of behavior will not be tolerated. Anyone who thinks an apology is in order is kidding themselves. This isn't first grade...
 
I anticipated mixed reply's to my questions when I created this thread. So
far opinions posted are very interesting. Please try to refrain from turning this thread into an abusive flame war. I have mixed feelings on this issue which I will elaborate on later. I'm sure others do as well. I think seeing other opinions will help me and others deal with the way we feel about this situation. Let's for once try and keep this civil.

Thanks
 
I think in part, the guards' supevisors are, for not keeping a closer eye on their soldiers, and for having people who aren't trained in that, running the prisons.
If this has been going on, and Rumsfeld or anyone else has been aware and not done anything, that certainly is wrong.
Ultimately, however, it's the fault of the people in the photos. I think a lot of it has to do with 'young' people being in positions of power, in an unfriendly environment, and some people do abuse their authority, especially when they're not used to it [see the movie Das Experiment, or read about the Stanford Prison Experiment, for more info]. I can see in part *how* it happened, but I certainly don't condone it. Even absent specific instructions, they should have known what shouldn't be done. I don't need a specific instruction in my driver's manual to say 'Don't run over that old lady.' I know not to do it.
That said, I do think what Saddam did to his own people was much worse--first, he was the 'leader' of his country, these are just soldiers, and secondly, I think torture, rape, and murder are much worse than humiliation. If the Iraqis and/or Muslims think humiliation is worse than torture/death/rape, that's one other difference between us. Not saying one is better than the other, but we have different priorities.
I don't know if an apology from the higherups, Rumsfeld/Bush etc, is required here. To me, 'sorry' implies 'forgive me.' Some things don't deserve forgiveness. I'm not a big fan of mass apologies anyway--talk is cheap. Don't apologize, do something about it. I personally would rather someone say 'Hey, that shouldn't have happened, we don't condone that, those who did it will be severely punished' rather than 'Sorry man.' Especially nowadays when everyone apologizes for everything, it means a lot less than it used to. And all too often it's said with no emotion behind it, but just because that's all it takes to walk off scot free.
Sorry I wrecked your car. Screw that, pay to fix it!
Sorry I cheated on you. Forget that, try to save our relationship!
Sorry I cheated on the test. Too late, you fail, work harder next time.
 
[quote name='snotknocker']I anticipated mixed reply's to my questions when I created this thread. So
far opinions posted are very interesting. Please try to refrain from turning this thread into an abusive flame war. I have mixed feelings on this issue which I will elaborate on later. I'm sure others do as well. I think seeing other opinions will help me and others deal with the way we feel about this situation. Let's for once try and keep this civil.

Thanks[/quote]

And it shouldn't degenerate into one.

Thier actions were completely stupid.

But the response of some in the media, like some on this forum is to make this an issue to discredit the war.

That is becoming the bigger issue.

CTL
 
[quote name='CTLesq']But the response of some in the media, like some on this forum is to make this an issue to discredit the war.

That is becoming the bigger issue.

CTL[/quote]


Since the war had no real justification to begin with, I have no need to discredit it.

Think of it more as an "I told you so".
 
[quote name='Hereticked'][quote name='jeugder']Anyone who thinks an apology is in order is kidding themselves. This isn't first grade...[/quote]


Well I guess that makes sense..... since Bush is a 1rst grader mentally.


www.drudgereport.com

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040506/D82D86T80.html


Whoops![/quote]

Good response.

I'm personally appalled by these inhumane actions, but I'll try to stay away from this. I hear enough political debate everywhere else...
 
[quote name='Hereticked'][quote name='CTLesq']But the response of some in the media, like some on this forum is to make this an issue to discredit the war.

That is becoming the bigger issue.

CTL[/quote]


Since the war had no real justification to begin with, I have no need to discredit it.

Think of it more as an "I told you so".[/quote]

We have been over this before. You have no answer for the legal justification so there is no reason to review it again.

CTL
 
There is no excuse for what happened and the people involved should and will be punished. It's stupid, and a disgrace to America. I do think people with Anti-American sentiment are making too big a deal of it (although it is a big deal). It's the result of bias and ignorance which is never good. Still, I don't think it's as bad as being shot in the face, even if a terrorist willing to die would prefer that.

I don't think it's safe to say every person in the prison is a criminal or a murderer. I am not an expert on the matter but wouldn't a lot of people being detained just be prisoners of war, members of the millitary of the old regime? They deserved to be treated like any other prisoner of war. I agree with the above poster that this is being made too political.
 
But the response of some in the media, like some on this forum is to make this an issue to discredit the war.
Click to expand...

That's all this is. 100% that's all this is. There is no concern for Iraqi's with the critics of this. These are the same people that would have been happier if we stayed home and let Saddam stay in power as he had for decades. These are the same people that support the Sudan being on the UN Council of Human Rghts. The same people that think Kim Jong Il could fit the "Anyone but Bush." bumper sticker. These are the same people that don't care that John Kerry's annonymous "foreign leaders" could be socialists, communists, terrorist or Islamic fascists, it's an endorsement and that's all that counts.

Unless you're from the Red Cross, Red Crescent, Amnesty International or other groups that were complaining as vehemently about the treatment of prisoners in 2002 as you are in 2004 you know you're making a big deal out of this precisely because it is only political. To say otherwise in intellectually dsihonest but that's what you need to be to be a member of the ABB (Anybody but Bush.) crowd.
 
[quote name='CTLesq']We have been over this before. You have no answer for the legal justification so there is no reason to review it again.

CTL[/quote]

Wrong.

We have no legal justification. We moved unilaterally, without the sanction of the UN.

YOU have no answer for that other than to wave your hand dismissively like Bill O'Reilly or any other number of conservative spinners.

You are the one who ASSUMES that if there was such a clear and present danger to the world and we had ACTUAL PROOF (unlike the gobs of NOTHING that Collin Powell presented at the UN) that the UN wouldn't act, and therefore we have to "go it alone" with our corporate buddies.

It doesn't stand up to scrutiny I'm afraid.
 
Question to someone who's more familiar with the material: were these all soldiers that did this or were there "contractors" that seem to pop up a lot in this war's stories involved also?

edit: question actually a question now.
 
I dont have time to read all the posts but my view is its not suprising cause this of course has happend in just about every war. I dont see the big deal with it.
 
[quote name='"PittsburghAfterDark"']
Unless you're from the Red Cross, Red Crescent, Amnesty International or other groups that were complaining as vehemently about the treatment of prisoners in 2002 as you are in 2004 you know you're making a big deal out of this precisely because it is only political. To say otherwise in intellectually dsihonest but that's what you need to be to be a member of the ABB (Anybody but Bush.) crowd.
Click to expand...

This is the first proof those of us without first-hand knowledge of the prisons have had. So of course there are more people outraged now especially when we find out that the administration knew about these abuses as far back as January.

The only reason we are finding this out now is because a soldier who was disturbed by these atrocities leaked the photos. Since the first Gulf War the Pentagon has kept an extremely tight lid on all reporting coming from a military campaign.
 
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