Iraq's Historic Vote Begins

Ruined

CAGiversary!
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,145808,00.html

Iraq's Historic Vote Begins

Sunday, January 30, 2005

BAGHDAD, Iraq — Iraq was on high alert Sunday as polls opened to citizens eager to cast votes in the country's first open elections in more than 50 years. Insurgents made good on threats in some areas. Tight security stopped one bomber from reaching a crowded polling station and a slew of terrorist attempts did not hit their targets.

In the first sign of anti-election violence, a homicide bomber blew up his vehicle after being stopped by Iraqi police at a security checkpoint protecting a polling station in the Mansoor District of northwest Baghdad. One Iraqi police officer was killed and two Iraqi national guardsmen and two traffic cops were wounded in the attack.

Another homicide bomber blew himself up in a line of voters outside a west Baghdad polling station, causing several casualties, and a blast at another voting centre in Sadr City killed at least four people, Reuters reported.

Mortar fire and explosions were heard in central Baghdad about an hour and a half into Sunday's historic election.

Despite the blasts, Iraqis — men and women together — were turning out in droves to vote at a polling station west of Baghdad, according to FNC's Geraldo Rivera.

Leading secular Shiite candidate Ahmad Chalabi (search) told FOX News that the majority of Iraqis are not afraid and are determined to vote. They are grateful to the "young men and women of the U.S. forces for helping us get to this day.


"The momentum of the millions of people voting will create its own security," he said.

Iraqi President Ghazi al-Yawer (search) was one of the first to vote at the convention center serving as election headquarters in Baghdad's heavily fortified Green Zone. Al-Yawer called his vote his country's first step "toward joining the free world."

As poll workers watched, al-Yawer marked two ballots — one for the 275-member National Assembly and the other for provincial legislatures — and then dropped them into boxes. A poll worker handed him an Iraqi flag as he left.

"I'm very proud and happy this morning," al-Yawer told reporters. "I congratulate all the Iraqi people and call them to vote for Iraq."

Al-Yawer's casting of one of the first ballots was highly symbolic, since he is a Sunni Muslim and could possibly influence fellow Sunnis. The Iraqi government is deeply concerned that Sunnis will elect not to participate in the election.

His wife, Nesreen Mustafa Berwari (search), a minister of public works in the country's interim government, voted shortly thereafter. "This is a shining day on the road to the new Iraq," she said.

Across the country, voters began filing into nearly 5,200 polling stations, where workers checked their identifications before letting them cast ballots. About 300,000 Iraqi and American troops are on the streets and on standby to protect voters.

Over the past 24 hours, insurgents carried out attacks on polling stations in major cities across the nation, according to senior military officials, who said the Iraqi police and army are responding to calls at a much higher rate than expected. In one case, a man attempted to carry out an attack on a horse.

Insurgents have recently stepped up their pre-election campaign of violence. On Saturday, terrorists attacked the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad's Green Zone (search), killing one civilian Defense Department employee and one naval officer.

Also Saturday, eight people were killed in a homicide bombing and a roadside explosive killed a U.S. soldier.

More than 40 U.S. troops have died in the past three days. Iraq's interim prime minister said that the "success" of the election would mean America's sacrifices were made in the service of freedom.

"They have not fallen in vain. They have fallen for a just cause ... and we are witnessing now some of the results of this very sacred cause," Ayad Allawi (search) told FOX News. "Their blood and the blood of Iraqi soldiers have not gone in vain."

The polls are open from 7 a.m. to 5 p.m. local time on Sunday, or 11 p.m. to 9 a.m. EST. Iraqis will choose a 275-member National Assembly and provincial councils in the country's 18 provinces. Voters in the Kurdish self-ruled area of the north will select a new regional parliament. Results are not expected for a couple of weeks.

FOX News' Dana Lewis, Geraldo Rivera, Jane Roh, Shepard Smith and The Associated Press contributed to this report.
 
I'm actually a bit surprised at how badly its going so far. Although I was and am pretty certain that the whole 'free Iraqi government' thing is going to fail, I figured that the US forces would at least be able to keep things semi-stable for the next few months, long enough to prop up a interm government, declare things a sucess and get the hell out of there before everything collapses. Right now, even that much optimism is looking a bit unrealistic...

Actually, I don't think this is entirely bad. Freedom simply rarely means anything to people unless they have to actively fight to get it or keep it (not necessarily physical fighting, though that works too, but 'struggle' for it in some way, shape or form.) The whole Iraq invasion thing has been based on 'giving' the Iraqi people freedom, but my own belief is that freedom, like all basic human rights, cannot be given, only taken. So these attacks may actually be a good thing, in the end, because the people who risk death to go out and vote are going to have a lot more invested in the outcome than if it were an easy and peaceful process. Still, I think the final outcome is still very much up in the air.
 
[quote name='Drocket']I'm actually a bit surprised at how badly its going so far. Although I was and am pretty certain that the whole 'free Iraqi government' thing is going to fail, I figured that the US forces would at least be able to keep things semi-stable for the next few months, long enough to prop up a interm government, declare things a sucess and get the hell out of there before everything collapses. Right now, even that much optimism is looking a bit shakey...[/quote]

Your comments of pessimism are based on what?

Given a comparison of artilces on CNN, BBC and Al-Jazerra the gamut of views on the election has run from a few attacks to a great number. The polls have been open for the past 5.5 hours here and there have been approximately 4 car bombs - none of which have hit a pollong place.

Honestly id you are "suprised at how bad" that set of facts are then you probably only would view Iraqi elections as a success if they were conducted with zero violence as they are in the US.

And that just ins't reasonable. Thats just someone looking for something to complain about.

But I give you a photo of one of the Iraqi campaign materials:

post-4-1106984426.jpg


post-4-1106984539.jpg


CTL
 
[quote name='Drocket']I'm actually a bit surprised at how badly its going so far.[/quote]

Some stations report over 70% voter turnout and that's BAD? Setting the bar a wee bit high aren't we?
 
[quote name='CTLesq'][quote name='Drocket']I'm actually a bit surprised at how badly its going so far. Although I was and am pretty certain that the whole 'free Iraqi government' thing is going to fail, I figured that the US forces would at least be able to keep things semi-stable for the next few months, long enough to prop up a interm government, declare things a sucess and get the hell out of there before everything collapses. Right now, even that much optimism is looking a bit shakey...[/quote]

Your comments of pessimism are based on what?

Given a comparison of artilces on CNN, BBC and Al-Jazerra the gamut of views on the election has run from a few attacks to a great number. The polls have been open for the past 5.5 hours here and there have been approximately 4 car bombs - none of which have hit a pollong place.

Honestly id you are "suprised at how bad" that set of facts are then you probably only would view Iraqi elections as a success if they were conducted with zero violence as they are in the US.

And that just ins't reasonable. Thats just someone looking for something to complain about.

But I give you a photo of one of the Iraqi campaign materials:

post-4-1106984426.jpg


post-4-1106984539.jpg


CTL[/quote]

Yeah, I don't think it's going that bad yet. Anyway - it is good to see another nation taking the first steps towards democracy (even if they were somewhat coerced), good luck CTL.
 
[quote name='Drocket']I'm actually a bit surprised at how badly its going so far. [/quote]

Badly? Percentage-wise, more Iraqis voted in this election (72%) than Americans voted in the 2004 election! (60.7%). And that was the highest percentage of Americans voting in the past 30 years. The Iraqi vote was a huge success... it goes to show that they really DO want freedom, and will fight for it even in the face of danger and terrorism!

[quote name='AP']Iraqis Brave Bombs to Vote in Their Millions
Sun Jan 30, 2005 07:45 AM ET

By Luke Baker
BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Millions of Iraqis turned out to vote Sunday, defying anti-U.S. insurgents determined to drown the historic poll in blood.

Suicide bombs and mortar fire shadowed the event, the first multi-party election in 50 years, killing at least 22 people. But still voters came out in force, many with resolve, some with fanfare and others with their faces hidden.

Even in Falluja, the devastated Sunni city west of Baghdad that was a militant stronghold until a U.S. assault in November, a slow stream of people turned out, confounding expectations.

"We want to be like other Iraqis, we don't want to always be in opposition," said Ahmed Jassim, smiling after voting.

In Baquba, a rebellious city northeast of Baghdad, crowds clapped and cheered at one voting station. In Mosul, scene of some of the worst insurgent attacks in recent months, U.S. and local officials said turnout was surprisingly high.

One of the first to vote was President Ghazi al-Yawar, a Sunni Muslim Arab with a large tribal following, who cast his ballot inside Baghdad's fortress-like Green Zone.

He emerged from the booth with a smile, his right index finger stained with bright blue ink to show he had voted, and was handed a small Iraqi flag by an official. "Thanks be to God," he told reporters. "I hope everyone will go out and vote."

In the relatively secure Kurdish north, people flowed steadily to the polls. One illiterate man in Arbil, 76-year-old Said Rasool, came alone and was turned away, unable to read the ballot paper. He said he would return with someone to help.

Even in the so-called "triangle of death," an insurgent hotbed south of Baghdad, turnout was solid, officials said.

FESTIVE VOTING

In mainly Shi'ite Basra, Iraq's second biggest city, hundreds of voters queued patiently at polling centers.

"I am not afraid," said Samir Khalil Ibrahim, a young man voting alone. "This is like a festival for all Iraqis."

Within a few hours, four voting centers in the city had been hit by blasts but no one was killed.

In Baghdad, a small group ululated as Sharif Ali bin al-Hussein, a descendant of Iraq's last king, went to the polls. Ali leads a constitutional monarchy slate in the election.

Western Baghdad polling stations were busy, with queues of voters forming. Most went about the process routinely, filling in their ballots and leaving quickly without too much emotion.

Samir Hassan, 32, who lost his leg in a car bomb blast in October, was determined to vote. "I would have crawled here if I had to. I don't want terrorists to kill other Iraqis like they tried to kill me. Today I am voting for peace," he said.

In Sadr City, a poor Shi'ite neighborhood of northeast Baghdad that has been the scene of much discontent over the past 18 months, two lines of voters formed at one polling station, women in black abaya robes in one line, men in another.

Some of the first to vote countrywide were policemen, out in force to protect polling centers from attack, part of draconian security precautions put in place by U.S. and Iraqi officials.

In Samarra, a restive Sunni-Shi'ite city north of Baghdad, the crackle of gunfire was heard minutes after polls opened.

After a few hours, only about 100 people had voted at one of two polling sites. One woman, covered head-to-toe in black robes, kept her face concealed, but said she voted with pride.

In nearby Baiji, some people were unable to vote because electoral officials failed to turn up. "We are waiting for the manager with the key," said an election worker, apologizing for the mix-up. At one Tikrit station, only one voter pitched up.

"VOTE FOR HUMANITY, LOVE"

In the shrine city of Najaf in the Shi'ite heartland, hundreds of people walked calmly to polling stations. Security around Najaf, attacked before, was some of the tightest.

"This is a wedding for all Iraqis. I congratulate all Iraqis on their newfound freedom and democracy," said Jaida Hamza, dressed in a black Islamic veil that also hid her face.

Shi'ites, who make up 60 percent of Iraq's people, are expected to win the vote, overturning years of oppression.

In Kirkuk, a city divided between Arabs, Kurds and Turkmen, Kurds turned out in force, as expected, but there were signs Arabs and Turkmen were following through on a threat to boycott, angered by what they see as voting rules that favor Kurds.

One of the biggest surprises was Mosul, a mixed Sunni Arab and Kurd city in the far north. "So far it's gone very well, much better than expected," said a U.S. army officer.

Baghdad's mayor was overcome with emotion by the turnout of voters at City Hall, where he said thousands were celebrating.

"I cannot describe what I am seeing. It is incredible. This is a vote for the future, for the children, for the rule of law, for humanity, for love," Alaa al-Tamimi told Reuters.[/quote]

[quote name='CNN']With polls nearing closing time in Iraq's historic election day, Iraqi election officials are reporting a turnout of 72 percent nationwide, despite a spate of attacks and threats aimed at disrupting the vote.[/quote]
 
"Every indication is that the election in Iraq is going better than expected," Rice said on ABC's "This Week."

Of course, if expectations are so low they can only be higher than thought.

"It is hard to say that something is legitimate when whole portions of the country can't vote and doesn't vote," Kerry said.

I bet he is saying the same thing about the USA election. How portions of the countries couldn't vote, and the ones that could don't anyways. He's probably going "If only more portions of young people went out and voted!"
 
[quote name='David85']
"Every indication is that the election in Iraq is going better than expected," Rice said on ABC's "This Week."

Of course, if expectations are so low they can only be higher than thought.

"It is hard to say that something is legitimate when whole portions of the country can't vote and doesn't vote," Kerry said.

I bet he is saying the same thing about the USA election. How portions of the countries couldn't vote, and the ones that could don't anyways. He's probably going "If only more portions of young people went out and voted!"[/quote]

Kerry can stuff it, more Iraqis voted percentage wise than American, it just goes to show that he doesn't even care about the facts and just wants America to look bad. Maybe the swift boat vets were right about him.....
 
[quote name='Ruined']Kerry can stuff it, more Iraqis voted percentage wise than American, it just goes to show that he doesn't even care about the facts and just wants America to look bad. Maybe the swift boat vets were right about him.....[/quote]

Yeah, that's why he went off to fight in Vietnam while Bush was doing white lines over the skies of Texas :roll:
 
[quote name='camoor'][quote name='Ruined']Kerry can stuff it, more Iraqis voted percentage wise than American, it just goes to show that he doesn't even care about the facts and just wants America to look bad. Maybe the swift boat vets were right about him.....[/quote]

Yeah, that's why he went off to fight in Vietnam while Bush was doing white lines over the skies of Texas :roll:[/quote]

Let's not get off topic, fellas...

I think this will be a historic day and it shows the overall goodwill most citizens have towards the American forces and international election volunteers. We take for granted that voting is a right...to these people, it's a priviledge they haven't seen in a long while, if ever.
 
[quote name='Mike23']Let's not get off topic, fellas...

I think this will be a historic day and it shows the overall goodwill most citizens have towards the American forces and international election volunteers. We take for granted that voting is a right...to these people, it's a priviledge they haven't seen in a long while, if ever.[/quote]

Agreed, it is wonderful to see a long oppressed people voice their freedom because they finally have an opportunity to do so.
 
It is sad to see how the liberals here would rather see Bush fail than see Iraq and its people succeed.

And for the record the elections are going VERY well no matter what the liberal shitheads say. This is a big step in a long road towards their freedom.
 
[quote name='Mike23'][quote name='camoor'][quote name='Ruined']Kerry can stuff it, more Iraqis voted percentage wise than American, it just goes to show that he doesn't even care about the facts and just wants America to look bad. Maybe the swift boat vets were right about him.....[/quote]

Yeah, that's why he went off to fight in Vietnam while Bush was doing white lines over the skies of Texas :roll:[/quote]

Let's not get off topic, fellas...

I think this will be a historic day and it shows the overall goodwill most citizens have towards the American forces and international election volunteers. We take for granted that voting is a right...to these people, it's a priviledge they haven't seen in a long while, if ever.[/quote]

However the elections are going, it is no indication of good will toward americans. All it shows is an approval of voting and democracy, something nobody denied that Iraqi's preferred.

Though I will point out one thing about the elections in response to scrubking link
The electoral commission claimed a high turnout and US President George W Bush congratulated the Iraqi people on a "great and historical achievement".

A series of election-day attacks across Iraq killed at least 36 people, mainly in Baghdad, health officials said.

Correspondents say there was a marked division in turnout between Sunni, Shia and Kurdish strongholds.

In the Shia Muslim south and Kurdish north of the country, lines formed at polling stations and there were smiles and tears of joy among voters.

But polling stations in many Sunni-dominated cities in the centre of Iraq were closed or deserted, as voters stayed away out of fear of attack or opposition to the election itself, reports said.

Just before polls officially closed, a British military transport plane crashed north of Baghdad. There are an unknown number of victims and the cause is not yet clear.

You can say it was a success, but this statement
And for the record the elections are going VERY well no matter what the liberal shitheads say.
, just shows someone that turns a blind eye to the problems that did occur, as well as someone who can't go a sentence without throwing an "evil liberal" line in.
 
The low voter turnout in the US actually sort of proves my point. Most Americans have never had to defend their freedom, so it means nothing to them, so they wind up simply throwing it away. Freedom cannot be given because when you give it to people, they never appreciate it and quickly wind up losing it.

As for 'hoping' for America to fail: Its not that I hope it fails. The reality is that failure is the most likely outcome at this point. Rationally evaluating reality isn't real big in the value system of Bush supporters, though, I know.
 
[quote name='Scrubking']It is sad to see how the liberals here would rather see Bush fail than see Iraq and its people succeed.

And for the record the elections are going VERY well no matter what the liberal shitheads say. This is a big step in a long road towards their freedom.[/quote]

:rofl:

Bush has already failed (he's the biggest failure since Grant), and America is simply in salvage mode. IMO, the salvage effort is going well, but I can understand if others on this board think otherwise.
 
, just shows someone that turns a blind eye to the problems that did occur,

How stupid are you? Everyone and their momma knew that people were going to die today, its just not as bad as people like drocket wanted it to be.

And to say that these people are getting their freedom for free shows the ignorance and complete lack of common sense by you people. When you are risking your life to cast a vote you aren't getting anything for free. It would be easy for them to not vote in order to save their life, but they are earning a democracy by saying "I want freedom even if I die via suicide bomber". OH, and rationally evaluating a false reality isn't worth shit. Try evaluating what is really going on.
 
[quote name='Scrubking']
, just shows someone that turns a blind eye to the problems that did occur,

How stupid are you? Everyone and their momma knew that people were going to die today, its just not as bad as people like drocket wanted it to be.

And to say that these people are getting their freedom for free shows the ignorance and complete lack of common sense by you people. When you are risking your life to cast a vote you aren't getting anything for free. It would be easy for them to not vote in order to save their life, but they are earning a democracy by saying "I want freedom even if I die via suicide bomber". OH, and rationally evaluating a false reality isn't worth shit. Try evaluating what is really going on.[/quote]

So if we know there are going to be problems, problems occur as expected, then it is a giant success? And your comments are getting more and more ridiculous. You're equating saying there are going to be problems with wanting there to be problems. That's one of the things that's wrong with the political climate in this country, people think that anyone who sees the possibility of a negative result automatically wants that to occur.

Anyway, read what I posted. At least 36 people died, there was a marked division in turnout depending on the area, many poll booths in sunni dominated areas were closed or deserted, since voters stayed away out of fear and opposition. This also shows that many who felt they were risking their life didn't go. Add this to the fact that many candidates were already to scared to publicly declare themselves as a candidate, and instead ran in secret link.
 
Leave it to the wonder tards on this board to say this isn't an accomplishment and an overwhelming success. Your entire arguments that we're failing in Iraq have just been shattered. 70%+ of the Iraqi people eligible to vote have just shamed the American left.

They have shamed John Kerry, Ted Kennedy, Barbara Boxer, every Air America host and that fat fuck Michael Moore. They are now absolutely onthe wrong side of history.... again.

The Iraqi people shamed the Western media in every country west of Poland to Tokyo. They have stood up and decided to take their place in history as an evolving democracy. They did it in the face of threats, bombs, guns and a whining ex-Presidential candidate.

Meanwhile at home,cowards like John Kerry use the same arguments against this success as that loser did for losing his own election. "Count every vote! Portions of the country weren't counted!"

Grow the fuck up.

I guess it's hard to watch your entire political existence go the way of the Dodo bird in a scant 4 months. I guess it's impossible to realize that the billion dollars you spent in negative media backfired and got you nothing. I guess thousands of articles in papers worldwide couldn't get one single fact right... democracy works everywhere it is tried.

I'm sorry guys. I'm sorry you didn't get to see tens of thousands of Iraqi dead and a failed election to point at to criticize a President. I'm sorry that American troops didn't have to move in and back up Iraqi security forces incompetence. I'm sorry you have no more articles, talking heads and editorials crying how, maybe, some cultures just aren't meant to self rule.

I'm sorry that you continue to be wrong about politics, how the world works, the noble reachings of the human spirit and how man, when given the choice, will always yearn for freedom.

Chalk this one up as another instance the hockey helmet wearing, short bus riding, chronically masturbating wonder tards on the vs. board got wrong.

Losers.
 
[quote name='Scrubking']How stupid are you? Everyone and their momma knew that people were going to die today, its just not as bad as people like drocket wanted it to be.[/quote]
As I already said, it actually went a good deal worse than I expected. I guess I had a bit more faith in the US military's ability to keep order than they deserved.

OH, and rationally evaluating a false reality isn't worth shit. Try evaluating what is really going on.
Bush supporters have long since lost their right to criticize other people's perceptions of reality.
 
PAD, at least we agree on something. You are sorry.

At what expense Iraq (money, world opinion, or American lives, take your pick) For something that would eventually happen anyway.
 
Ah camoor can be counted on to state, inaccurately, the mantra of the American left when they're historically wrong. DUH, IT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED ANYWAYS!

I recall hearing the same thing when the Berlin wall fell, Germany re-united, the Eastern Bloc nations joined NATO, the USSR collapsed yadda yadda yadda. Your side is wrong. They're always.... wrong.

Sorry you can't deal with it. Oh, and yes, the efforts in Iraq were worth the billions and the lives of American soldiers lost. Every countries leadership in the Middle East is shaking in their boots that a real democracy may flourish in their midst. They, unlike you, learned the lessons of the Berlin Wall that came tumbling down.

Camoor is the same kind of person that doesn't believe that our struggle in World War II would have been worth the lives and treasure either. I mean, the Nazi's would have collapsed eventually. Didn't they say the same thing about Rome?

How many years are too many under tyranny? When does "It would happen eventually." become secondary to "It's the right thing to do."? I know you're a coward Camoor. However you really should read history books for the truth in them, not the PC spin you wish they had.
 
Keep apologizing PAD, I'm starting to like you better.

Yeah, thank god we stopped Vietnam. That juggernaut would have totally crushed the USA if we hadn't lost 58,226 fighting an 18 year war with no clear objectives. This is no WWII, but if you can't see that then you're more idiotic then I give you credit for.

I'm no coward, but you're too much of a bull-headed xenophobic sadist to see that.
 
You are a coward.

Xenophobic sadist? Wow, such a noble attempt at an insult. Sorry that neither claim is accurate but a noble attempt none the less.

Back to the short bus with your hand lotion fool.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']You are a coward.

Xenophobic sadist? Wow, such a noble attempt at an insult. Sorry that neither claim is accurate but a noble attempt none the less.

Back to the short bus with your hand lotion fool.[/quote]

That's got to be the weakest post I have ever seen.
 
How many of you really understand how wonderful the US election system is? Strange how the Democrats and Liberals are so against democracy and liberty for another country. I was moved by a news report showing women who were going through Muslim last rights the day before voting. Imagine willing to die to vote...sounds like colonial USA to me. Imagine in America if George Washington said...oh screw freedom because a few people might get killed.


IDIOTS!

Have you seen how poorly some elections go in the world??? Trindad, Jamaica, Venezuala, Russia, parts of Asia, and many places have murder sprees based on political alliances. This is normal for many places (not that it is right).

The Iraq elections with such a high turnout has proven that GWB was right and those with their OPINIONS about how poorly things are going there have no basis except the negative news reports coming as often as they can type them.
 
Am I the only one who sees a problem in using voter turnout (which, again, varied greatly depending on the area) to determine whether the Iraqi's supported the u.s. invasion?
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']Am I the only one who sees a problem in using voter turnout (which, again, varied greatly depending on the area) to determine whether the Iraqi's supported the u.s. invasion?[/quote]

Are you the only one who thinks Iraqis would ever have had a chance to vote without a US invasion?

[quote name='alonzomourning23']Anyway, read what I posted. At least 36 people died, there was a marked division in turnout depending on the area, many poll booths in sunni dominated areas were closed or deserted, since voters stayed away out of fear and opposition. This also shows that many who felt they were risking their life didn't go. Add this to the fact that many candidates were already to scared to publicly declare themselves as a candidate, and instead ran in secret link.[/quote]

36 people killed compared to "the streets running with the blood of voters"?

Are you kidding me?

You are aware those body counts include the suicide bombers to "pump up" the numbers of the dead?

Yes and some areas didn't have spectacular turnout. And many of those people WOULDN'T HAVE VOTED UNDER ANY SET OF CIRCUMSTANCE.

Maybe you missed the news flash. The terrorists declared war on the elections because of what it meant to Iraq.

They failed.

People like yourself are merely looking for a reason to discredit the election.

Its sad. I pity you.

CTL
 
[quote name='CTLesq']Are you the only one who thinks Iraqis would ever have had a chance to vote without a US invasion?[/quote]

Because no revolution from within has ever succeeded, yes? Of course, those internal revolutionaries would have had a much easier time of it if the US hasn't spent a decade or two giving Saddam weapons...
 
[quote name='Drocket'][quote name='CTLesq']Are you the only one who thinks Iraqis would ever have had a chance to vote without a US invasion?[/quote]

Because no revolution from within has ever succeeded, yes? Of course, those internal revolutionaries would have had a much easier time of it if the US hasn't spent a decade or two giving Saddam weapons...[/quote]

Drocket this post is way beneath your intelligence level. I was very impressed that you went back and edited your orginal post in this thread. I thought it showed much better critical thinking.

But for you to respond with the same tired call that somehow Hussein was a creature creatd by the US is poor. Yes, in fact Iraq was a client state of the US for a long period of time. No one disputes that.

But for you to throw that back as a reason that but for US support of Hussein (might I add under uniquely different world circumstances) was the reason there were no elections in Iraq and directly challenge the validity and importance of the elections because of that support is quite poor.

Anyone think its just a fluke that free elections in the middle east are held in three, and only three countries: Israel, Afghanistan and Iraq?

CTL
 
The problem that I have is less that Saddam was propped up by the US, despite a horrible human rights record even at that time, but far more importantly, the decision to support Saddam was made by the very same people who have now decided to replace him. Saddam was a rabid dog, but as long as he jumped when the US snapped, that was just fine. Its only after he stopped obeying us that the rape and murder of civilians became a problem.

The Iraqi's are going to get to pick a new leader - yippy-skippy. No matter who wins the election, its simply going to be Saddam 2.0. A weak leader isn't going to be able to keep a handle on the radical religious Muslims in the area and will fall (in which case we'll have to replace him with someone stronger), and a strong leader is going to crush the Iraqi people under his heel, just like Saddam. As long as the oil keeps flowing, though, I doubt that's going to be much of a problem to Bush and associates. It sure wasn't the first time around.
 
[quote name='Drocket']The problem that I have is less that Saddam was propped up by the US, despite a horrible human rights record even at that time, but far more importantly, the decision to support Saddam was made by the very same people who have now decided to replace him. Saddam was a rabid dog, but as long as he jumped when the US snapped, that was just fine. Its only after he stopped obeying us that the rape and murder of civilians became a problem.[/quote]

And Saddam was propped up by virtually everyone who properly feared the Islamic Republic of Iran.

Times change. Had Saddam come back into the fold after the first Gulf War I might very well be sitting in Tehran right now instead of Baghdad. Saddam was easier to go after. Yet, now that he is gone people remain fixated on why the US shouldn't have invaded (guess what people - you LOST that argument, time to move on) and everything that has gone wrong since that invasion.

Guess what - something went terribly well yesterday - the elections.,

Yet some people and news agencies are holding on the most tenous reasons why the elections were a failure.

Were the elections a panacea for all of Iraq's problems?

Absolutely not. But those who would not find the most feeble reason to criticize and condemn these elections are being exposed as defeatists that they are.

[quote name='Drocket']The Iraqi's are going to get to pick a new leader - yippy-skippy. No matter who wins the election, its simply going to be Saddam 2.0. A weak leader isn't going to be able to keep a handle on the radical religious Muslims in the area and will fall (in which case we'll have to replace him with someone stronger), and a strong leader is going to crush the Iraqi people under his heel, just like Saddam. As long as the oil keeps flowing, though, I doubt that's going to be much of a problem to Bush and associates. It sure wasn't the first time around.[/quote]

Of course it has to end that way doesn't it?

Just like, sans Romania, the revolution in the East Block nations and the Soviet Union was virtually bloodless.

Just like the elections in Iraq, which were supposed to not have any substantial voter turn out, and incredible amounts of violence had to happen?

How sad a world it must be for you and other that believe the vision of radical Muslims of death and repression is more powerful than democracy and freedom.

Thankfully I live in a world that won't cave to those people.

CTL
 
[quote name='CTLesq']How sad a world it must be for you and other that believe the vision of radical Muslims of death and repression is more powerful than democracy and freedom.[/quote]

Which one is more powerful depends entirely on which one people are willing to fight and die for. The radical Muslims have proven that they're willing to fight and die for their cause. The other side, I'm not so sure about. The high voter turnout despite the threats of violence is a good sign, but I have to question where exactly these freedom lovers were under Saddam. They were cowed by violence by Saddam? They why won't they be cowed by violence by all the up-and-coming Saddam-wannabes?

If the people of Iraq was democracy and freedom, they're going to have to fight for it - we can't fight all their battles for them. The fact that they rolled over and played nice for Saddam all these years isn't a good sign. It either means they liked him, or they're not willing to fight for their freedom. Either one means doom for the whole 'spreading democracy' thing.
 
[quote name='Drocket']If the people of Iraq was democracy and freedom, they're going to have to fight for it - we can't fight all their battles for them. The fact that they rolled over and played nice for Saddam all these years isn't a good sign. It either means they liked him, or they're not willing to fight for their freedom. Either one means doom for the whole 'spreading democracy' thing.[/quote]

The whole using WMDs against his own people, killing people and/or their family just for speaking out against him, torture rooms (real torture, i.e. cutting off body parts, not just putting underwear on ppl's heads), rape rooms, mass graves, republican guard, fedayeen saddam thing just may also have something to do with it. ;)
 
[quote name='Ruined']The whole using WMDs against his own people, killing people and/or their family just for speaking out against him, torture rooms (real torture, i.e. cutting off body parts, not just putting underwear on ppl's heads), rape rooms, mass graves, republican guard, fedayeen saddam thing just may also have something to do with it. ;)[/quote]

Again, are you expecting the radical Muslims/Saddam-wannabes to play nice? You know, the people who are kidnapping people, slowly sawing off their heads with knives and putting the video up on the internet for download? The Iraqi people aren't children - we can't stay around and protect them forever. If they want freedom, they're going to have to be willing to fight and die for it. If they couldn't or wouldn't do it under Saddam, what makes you think they're going to do anything different with next supreme-overlord-wannabe?
 
[quote name='Drocket']Again, are you expecting the radical Muslims/Saddam-wannabes to play nice? You know, the people who are kidnapping people, slowly sawing off their heads with knives and putting the video up on the internet for download? The Iraqi people aren't children - we can't stay around and protect them forever. If they want freedom, they're going to have to be willing to fight and die for it. If they couldn't or wouldn't do it under Saddam, what makes you think they're going to do anything different with next supreme-overlord-wannabe?[/quote]

Because now they have help, and we will help them until they are strong enough to do it themselves, something that they didn't have under Saddam.
 
[quote name='Ruined']Because now they have help, and we will help them until they are strong enough to do it themselves, something that they didn't have under Saddam.[/quote]
Gee, I wonder why that was... On, that's right - because we were selling their oppressor weapons. Of course, as CTLesq said, that was OK because they were fighting the evil Iranian government. Of course, that doesn't quite explain why we were selling weapons to the Iranian government too...

And most of the people responsible for all of those messes, and dozens of others in the Middle East, are now the ones telling us that we're going to be kind and nice and help the Iraqi people build their own government and please ignore all the horrible, horrible mistakes that we've made in the past out of sheer unmitigated greed... Lets just say I don't consider these people particularly trustworthy anymore.
 
[quote name='Drocket'][quote name='CTLesq']How sad a world it must be for you and other that believe the vision of radical Muslims of death and repression is more powerful than democracy and freedom.[/quote]

Which one is more powerful depends entirely on which one people are willing to fight and die for. The radical Muslims have proven that they're willing to fight and die for their cause. The other side, I'm not so sure about. The high voter turnout despite the threats of violence is a good sign, but I have to question where exactly these freedom lovers were under Saddam. They were cowed by violence by Saddam? They why won't they be cowed by violence by all the up-and-coming Saddam-wannabes?

If the people of Iraq was democracy and freedom, they're going to have to fight for it - we can't fight all their battles for them. The fact that they rolled over and played nice for Saddam all these years isn't a good sign. It either means they liked him, or they're not willing to fight for their freedom. Either one means doom for the whole 'spreading democracy' thing.[/quote]

And you have brillanty summarized why you beleive we will fail:

Our ideals are not as powerful as the terrorists.

As for people fighting for democracy in Iraq. Did you miss the promise that the Iraqi people would be slaughtered at the polls if they turned out to vote?

Do you miss the number of news articles saying X number of ING or Y numbers of IP were killed?

You just don't get it. Any reason you can create to poo poo what was a magnificent turn out - you will use.

Shameful. Thankfully in the 1790's our Founding Father's held a vision of the future that was more akin to mine than yours.

And thankfully there are many Iraqis who are willing to stand up for their future.

CTL
 
[quote name='CTLesq']Shameful. Thankfully in the 1790's our Founding Father's held a vision of the future that was more akin to mine than yours.[/quote]
Not really. They fought for their own freedom instead of sitting around waiting for someone else to rescue them.

And thankfully there are many Iraqis who are willing to stand up for their future.
But not against Saddam, apparently.
 
[quote name='CTLesq']
And you have brillanty summarized why you beleive we will fail:

Our ideals are not as powerful as the terrorists.
[/quote]

CTL, isn't "strengthening ideals" the entire motivation behind Bush mixing the neo-con and religious agenda together.

Now we can go off on our own democracy jihad, and anyone who disagrees is a or "cowardly athiest liberal" who is against mom and apple pie.

It's that simple, bull-headed "fight fire with fire" attitude that has just gotten America deeper into the hole of debt and world resentment.
 
[quote name='camoor'][quote name='CTLesq']
And you have brillanty summarized why you beleive we will fail:

Our ideals are not as powerful as the terrorists.
[/quote]

CTL, isn't "strengthening ideals" the entire motivation behind Bush mixing the neo-con and religious agenda together.

Now we can go off on our own democracy jihad, and anyone who disagrees is a or "cowardly athiest liberal" who is against mom and apple pie.

It's that simple, bull-headed "fight fire with fire" attitude that has just gotten America deeper into the hole of debt and world resentment.[/quote]

Perhaps you can write a letter to the Middle East expressing your strong dislike of radical Islam and let us know how that works out.

CTL
 
[quote name='Drocket'][quote name='CTLesq']Shameful. Thankfully in the 1790's our Founding Father's held a vision of the future that was more akin to mine than yours.[/quote]
Not really. They fought for their own freedom instead of sitting around waiting for someone else to rescue them.

And thankfully there are many Iraqis who are willing to stand up for their future.
But not against Saddam, apparently.[/quote]

Actually they did. Right after the first Gulf War. Bush Sr. encouraged them to take Saddam out, and they tried. Saddam's helicopters ended that uprising, and we could have done something to help out, but we didn't. Maybe Iraq would have already been a democracy if we had taken out Saddam's choppers.

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Iraq/0,,2-10-1460_1338385,00.html
http://www.laweekly.com/ink/03/21/news-smyth.php
 
I thought the election went much better than I expected and I wish Iraq good luck because this is only a beginning.

I did think it was interesting this morning that Fox News was reporting that the one thing all of the candidates had in common was a desire to have all US forces out of the country soon. That doesn't seem like the reaction our administration expected before the invasion but certainly understandable.
 
[quote name='CTLesq'][quote name='camoor'][quote name='CTLesq']
And you have brillanty summarized why you beleive we will fail:

Our ideals are not as powerful as the terrorists.
[/quote]

CTL, isn't "strengthening ideals" the entire motivation behind Bush mixing the neo-con and religious agenda together.

Now we can go off on our own democracy jihad, and anyone who disagrees is a or "cowardly athiest liberal" who is against mom and apple pie.

It's that simple, bull-headed "fight fire with fire" attitude that has just gotten America deeper into the hole of debt and world resentment.[/quote]

Perhaps you can write a letter to the Middle East expressing your strong dislike of radical Islam and let us know how that works out.

CTL[/quote]

Do you even understand how America won the cold war without firing a shot?
 
Why is anyone surprised the liberal Bush haters where going to spin this great moment into disaster and failure?

gotten America deeper into the hole of debt and world resentment.

And this is why liberals are always wrong cause they never put the US first - it's always what does France think or how do the terrorists feel about us? Maybe we should sit down with the terrorists and have a little chat and come to a compromise. :roll:
 
[quote name='MrBadExample']I thought the election went much better than I expected and I wish Iraq good luck because this is only a beginning.

I did think it was interesting this morning that Fox News was reporting that the one thing all of the candidates had in common was a desire to have all US forces out of the country soon. That doesn't seem like the reaction our administration expected before the invasion but certainly understandable.[/quote]

This is exactly the problem with assuming the Iraqi's support the u.s. simply because they voted.
 
[quote name='Scrubking']Why is anyone surprised the liberal Bush haters where going to spin this great moment into disaster and failure?

gotten America deeper into the hole of debt and world resentment.

And this is why liberals are always wrong cause they never put the US first - it's always what does France think or how do the terrorists feel about us? Maybe we should sit down with the terrorists and have a little chat and come to a compromise. :roll:[/quote]

Maybe you'd like to pay off the debt. You can pay off my portion since you believe in Bush's cursade so completely.
 
[quote name='CTLesq'][quote name='alonzomourning23']Am I the only one who sees a problem in using voter turnout (which, again, varied greatly depending on the area) to determine whether the Iraqi's supported the u.s. invasion?[/quote]

Are you the only one who thinks Iraqis would ever have had a chance to vote without a US invasion?[/quote]

This is irrelevent. Just because they want to vote doesn't mean they think having their country invaded, their friends and family killed, the streets often not safe enough to walk down etc. is worth it That does not mean they prefer saddam either. You treat war as nothing, as something minor, "oh they want to vote, well I guess they won't mind being invaded then". As mrbadexample pointed out, the candidates want us out asap. It seems like the dominant opinion in Iraq is they want both gone, saddam and the u.s.

[quote name='alonzomourning23']Anyway, read what I posted. At least 36 people died, there was a marked division in turnout depending on the area, many poll booths in sunni dominated areas were closed or deserted, since voters stayed away out of fear and opposition. This also shows that many who felt they were risking their life didn't go. Add this to the fact that many candidates were already to scared to publicly declare themselves as a candidate, and instead ran in secret link.[/quote]

36 people killed compared to "the streets running with the blood of voters"?

Are you kidding me?

You are aware those body counts include the suicide bombers to "pump up" the numbers of the dead?

Yes and some areas didn't have spectacular turnout. And many of those people WOULDN'T HAVE VOTED UNDER ANY SET OF CIRCUMSTANCE.

Maybe you missed the news flash. The terrorists declared war on the elections because of what it meant to Iraq.

They failed.

People like yourself are merely looking for a reason to discredit the election.

Its sad. I pity you.

CTL

YAY!!! A chest thumping jerk pities me :roll: . With your way of thinking no one can ever say anything negative about the situation in Iraq. I wonder what you think of Colin Powell, he doesn't seem to share your rosy image of Iraq either. No one said the streets were running red, but you act as if nothing happened. You don't care that some areas were to unstable to participate, or that turnoat varied greatly depending on the area and group. You just don't want to see anything that contradicts the little bubble you have created for yourself. Elections aren't something where once they occur everything will fall into place like magic. You need more than elections to sustain a democracy.
 
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