Is there REALLY no way for Sony to add BC to the 40GB PS3?

basketkase543

basketkase543

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I'm tempted to get the 40GB PS3 but, like many people, I'm dissuaded by the lack of backwards compatibility with PS2. Here's where I get confused though: If the 80GB PS3 uses software emulation BC and not hardware BC, would it be potentially possible for Sony to add software BC through a firmware update? Or is this an absolute impossibility in that while the 80GB may use software BC it may still have some necessary hardware components that enable it to run BC correctly? Inquiring minds need to know!
 
That's what I"m wondering also, since I have a 60 or well had one, that is getting repaired, why the 40 gb can't be BC. I would like to pick one up for somebody but this whole software BC thing on the 80 gb but none on the 40 confuses me.
 
The 80GB only used partial software emulation-- there was still a chip from the PS2 in the 80GB unit (Forget which one right now). ALL of the PS2 hardware is gone from the 40GB unit.

Now, someone at Sony may come up with an awesome emulator that will indeed work. But there's no guarantee, and there may or may not even be anyone working on it.

If you want a PS3, make your decision based on an assumption there will never be add-on BC later on-- that way you won't be disappointed if it never shows up.
 
I'm so tempted by the 40GB because of the price and the inclusion of Spider-Man 3 since I'm going to be using the system more as a media center than a gaming rig (for now anyway). But to have to totally sacrifice BC support...I mean, really, Sony, how much would it have cost to keep whatever chip was taken out?
 
[quote name='basketkase543']I'm tempted to get the 40GB PS3 but like many people, I'm dissuaded by the lack of backwards compatibility with PS2. Here's where I get confused though: If the 80GB PS3 uses software emulation BC and not hardware BC, would it be potentially possible for Sony to add software BC through a firmware update? Or is this an absolute impossibility in that while the 80GB may use software BC it may still have some necessary hardware components that enable it to run BC correctly? Inquiring minds need to know![/QUOTE]

In all likelihood, no. And before you get carried away, realize that the 80GB is not purely software emulation. The 80GB uses software to emulate the PS2's Emotion Engine (CPU) but does physically have the PS2's Graphics Synthesizer chip on it's mainboard. So obviously Sony doesn't have a problem emulating the EE in software, but that doesn't mean that it's ever going to be able to emulate the GS in software. The PS3's architecture simply may not lend itself to emulating the GS in software and/or both chips simultaneously if at all. In fact, I'd have to say Sony would have done it already if they could. And hopefully noone comes in with "well the 360 can emulate Xbox1" b.s. Comparing apples to oranges there. The architecture of the CPU/GPU of both of Microsoft's systems is far far different and doesn't relate to the PS2/PS3 setup one bit.

I mean look, noone's come up with a good way to fully emulate Saturn hardware in software and think just how much more powerful today's PCs are to what the Saturn was. Software emulation is not something that is always effectively possible. People can't just wave a magic wand and expect programmers to come up with software emulators. It just flat out might not be possible. Once people realize that things will get better.
 
It's possible, I suppose. But Sony is unlikely to put the funding into making fully software based backwards compatibility when they still offer a system that is partially backwards compatible.
 
I doubt you'll ever see BC on the 40GB. The PS2 is still selling well (in part due to Sony's PS3 blunders), so there's no need to include it in the PS3. When PS2 sales eventually diminsh, you'll probably start seeing PS1/PS2 games on Home as DLC. That'll be Sony's answer for BC on all future PS3 sku's.
 
[quote name='Warner1281']I doubt you'll ever see BC on the 40GB. The PS2 is still selling well (in part due to Sony's PS3 blunders), so there's no need to include it in the PS3. When PS2 sales eventually diminsh, you'll probably start seeing PS1/PS2 games on Home as DLC. That'll be Sony's answer for BC on all future PS3 sku's.[/QUOTE]

To make a PS2 game downloadable they pretty much have to make it backwards compatible first. It's not like the problem is reading the discs, if the game can be played on the system as a download it can be played on the system as a disc. Unless they decided to port the games rather than emulate them, but then they're PS3 games.
 
[quote name='Warner1281']The PS2 is still selling well (in part due to Sony's PS3 blunders), so there's no need to include it in the PS3. [/QUOTE]Actually, PS2 has gone down quite a bit in sales, but the main reason the PS2 sold has nothing to do with Sony's PS3 blunders (It's the freaking cheap price tag).

The situation is, it might be possible one day, but not likely in the short term. In order for the 40GB PS3 to have PS2 BC, there would have to be a good PS2 emulator not needing the EE AND GS. As of right now, there are some emulators, but very few games even work with it (and many that do have lots and lots of issues). If Sony can create an emulator that can play more than half the PS2 games without requiring a GS/EE, it may happen. If they don't, forget about it. The only method Sony could currently get BC on the 40GB is to emulate every game separately as a driver (like MS does with the 360), and release updates making games work. They considered that method, but with the massive PS2 library, a high percentage of games working wasn't technically possible. Many may want Sony to continuing putting the EE/GS; however, the price on the EE/GS is pretty much at its lowest point, and will continue to make PS3 expensive over time. Outside the external power supply, PS2 enclosure, PS2 DVD laser, etc., it's like your cramming a PS3 and a PS2 all into one console. So basically, continuing to add PS2 components will keep the PS3 at least $50 more expensive (meaning, the PS3 would have difficulty getting below $300, because the Cell/RSX will at least be twice that for a while). It's like if MS had Xbox hardware in the 360, it would continue to be $50-$100 more expensive. Removing the EE helps a little, but not a whole lot (removes $25 at least), but that was the plan all along (EE was only included at launch because it wasn't ready).

Basically, I look at it this way, you can keep a PS2 and get a 40GB PS3. Or you can have it all into one device and pay close to the same. That's mostly how the cost factor works out.

Although in my overall opinion, if you want to play PS2 games, it's best to just play them on a PS2 console AND SDTV. Not because I'm trying to support Sony's idea, but because of my personal experience. Some games the PS2 upscaling improves, while most look no different (just suits them for an HDTV), and some look worse (because they are either too blurry or other issues). Also, only some PS2 accessories will work on a PS3 without issues (getting some dance pads to work may be a pain, and games like GHII and Taiko Drum Master aren't playable on PS3 in anyway). With a PS2, you can automatically play anything and displays how they should. However, you still need memory cards (unlike the PS3 where you create memory cards on the HDD).
 
It is possible to put B/C on the 40GB SKU, but as Ray maguire 'SCEE managing director' said "I think the investment has to go in looking forward at new games, new experiences, new services, rather than looking backwards, at satisfying a technology that we superseded."
 
[quote name='near']It is possible to put B/C on the 40GB SKU, but as Ray maguire 'SCEE managing director' said "I think the investment has to go in looking forward at new games, new experiences, new services, rather than looking backwards, at satisfying a technology that we superseded."[/QUOTE]What he was saying didn't have anything to do with them no longer working on an emulator (or updating the 80GB PS3), it had to spend with spending money on resources trying to run every PS2 game as a driver and make it BC (like how the 360 plays some Xbox games).
 
If you can get partial software emulation, then I know that Sony can get full software emulation. Its really just a matter of time. But the main thing is selling the system, because if the system don't sell then it won't matter if it has BC or not.
 
[quote name='near']It is possible to put B/C on the 40GB SKU, but as Ray maguire 'SCEE managing director' said "I think the investment has to go in looking forward at new games, new experiences, new services, rather than looking backwards, at satisfying a technology that we superseded."[/QUOTE]

Which is fucking hilarious because last year Phil Harrison said, "Backwards compatibility, as you know from PlayStation One and PlayStation 2, is a core value of what we believe we should offer." "PlayStation is a format meaning that it transcends many devices -- PSOne, PS2, and now PS3."

Hey Sony, how 'bout letting the left hand talk to the right hand!

Oh well, I got my 20 gig. I'm set.
 
[quote name='Thomas96']If you can get partial software emulation, then I know that Sony can get full software emulation. Its really just a matter of time.[/quote]

Possibly, but not necessarily. It could be using up all of the CPU to do it on the 80GB and thus it might be a limitation on processing. It's huge amount of resources to create cycle-perfect emulators and without the hardware being similar (is isn't really) there's not much hope for a on-the-fly bytecode translator.

That's not to say that it isn't possible, but rather that emulating one CPU doesn't imply that the CPU/GPU could be done concurrently.
 
On a halfway related note... are you guys still seeing 60GB units in stores or has it gone completely to 40GB/80GB units?

EDIT: Yes Sony could add BC to any unit but they're already hemorrhaging cash so they don't want to invest the cash into R&D to make it happen. I'm glad I got my 60GB unit last year around launch. I wonder if that will lead to a premium being placed on them down the road?
 
[quote name='Chitown021']On a halfway related note... are you guys still seeing 60GB units in stores or has it gone completely to 40GB/80GB units?

EDIT: Yes Sony could add BC to any unit but they're already hemorrhaging cash so they don't want to invest the cash into R&D to make it happen. I'm glad I got my 60GB unit last year around launch. I wonder if that will lead to a premium being placed on them down the road?[/QUOTE]Very few stores have a 60GB now.
 
It had been awhile since I had seen one but this afternoon while I was out shopping with my wife I saw a lone PS3 in the glass case and Target. I was surprised to see it was a 60GB unit. They must've found one in a warehouse or stuffed away in back.

EDIT: Damn, I should've created a whole new thread to report my findings since 60GB units are becoming hard to find at retail since everytime someone sees a Wii a thread pops up.
 
My Best Buy here still has about 20-25 60 gb PS3 available. Probably due to it being in Alaska and you can only sell so many of them. They had about double that a month ago.
 
[quote name='Chitown021'] I wonder if that will lead to a premium being placed on them down the road?[/QUOTE]

Probably somewhat, I looked on EBay yesterday to see what 20GB's are going for and some are selling as high as $400 plus shipping for a new one. That may not seem like a lot but considering that's more than retail (going by EB's last new selling price of $379.99), I think 20GB and 60GB systems will be in demand especially when PS2 is discontinued (I know that won't be for a few more years)

edit, this is probably the exception but here is a new 20GB that went for over $450
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120182696580
 
it all boils down to, and i dont specifically mean anyone on here, but "man i want a ps3 but im not paying $600,$500 for it! thats waaay too much!" "yay price drop but no bc?! f that". everyone wants their cake and to eat it too. youll throw out at the time and even now for a 360 with hdmi (now) $450 and then $100 for online plus $50 a year, and then $180 for hd. $600 ps3 vs. $780 for the 360 with the same things. im not knocking the 360 i own one AND a ps3 AND a wii. what pushed me for a ps3 was theyre gettin rid of bc so that forced me to get it. (too many rpgs lol) hell the 360 cant even play half the file formats my ps3 can and microsoft makes my windows and 360. wtf! sony and microsoft both need to stop giving us 41690545748 different consoles. pick something, stick with it and show us that you actually know what your doing!
 
[quote name='DrunkTigerWoods']I don't understand why sony would do this. Didn't they learn anything from when microsoft tried to quit on BC?[/quote]

Yeah they did. People stll buy 360s with crap BC, and they'll do the same with the PS3.
 
[quote name='DrunkTigerWoods']I don't understand why sony would do this. Didn't they learn anything from when microsoft tried to quit on BC?[/QUOTE]$500 is too much for many people and no higher than $400 is the ideal console price tag at least. The only way Sony could get that was to remove BC. I'll put it this way, people in forums may make it seem like a big deal, but the majority of the mass market doesn't buy a console to play old games. They buy it because they want to play new stuff. That's what it was intended for.
 
[quote name='Blackout542']Yeah they did. People still buy 360s with crap BC, and they'll do the same with the PS3.[/QUOTE]

There's a big difference between a few hundred backwards compatible games with excellent upscaling and no backwards compatibility.
 
Indeed. I love me some old Xbox games but I never play them on my 360 because most of them don't run as well as they used to plus I can't use my old saves. With the triple, I have all my old memory cards in the hard drive, God of War 2 looks amazing and with adaptors, I can plug in all my old PS2 controllers including the godly Saturn controllers that got released back in 2005.

What gets to me is that Sony seems to be canning the one thing that they did extremely well.
 
I hope after costs come down and the PS2 eventually comes to its EOL they add it back, in full.

Regarding the topic, yes, I believe it is impossible, literally. The reason the GS is still on the 80GB is because there is not enough bandwidth to emulate the GS in real time. At least that is how I understand the issue.
 
Are there any downsides to owning the 60GB over the new 80GB now that they are the same price (besides the obvious loss of 20 gigs)? For example, does the 80GB have any new tech that makes it more stable or is that only the 40GB?
 
[quote name='basketkase543']Are there any downsides to owning the 60GB over the new 80GB now that they are the same price (besides the obvious loss of 20 gigs)? For example, does the 80GB have any new tech that makes it more stable or is that only the 40GB?[/QUOTE]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it's only the 40 GB units that make use of the 65nm processors. These run cooler and are supposedly quieter than than 80 GB units. The 60 GB and 80 GB units should have primarily the same tech in them (with the exception of the PS2 EE chip).
 
[quote name='PenguinMaster']There's a big difference between a few hundred backwards compatible games with excellent upscaling and no backwards compatibility.[/quote]

Yeah true, but you are mainly buying next gen systems to play new games on the market, not ones that have been out for a long time. If not why even buy the systems? Sure it sucks the PS2 games won't work, but did that prevent people from buying 360? I really don't think people are staring at the game systems behind the glass and saying "fuck this! I can't play Fable! fuck this! I can't play GTA 3!" and then walking out of the store without a purchase. If Wii had no BC, would that turn people off and hurt sales? Of course not. It's something new, and that's what people want.
 
[quote name='Blackout542']Yeah true, but you are mainly buying next gen systems to play new games on the market, not ones that have been out for a long time. If not why even buy the systems? Sure it sucks the PS2 games won't work, but did that prevent people from buying 360? I really don't think people are staring at the game systems behind the glass and saying "fuck this! I can't play Fable! fuck this! I can't play GTA 3!" and then walking out of the store without a purchase. If Wii had no BC, would that turn people off and hurt sales? Of course not. It's something new, and that's what people want.[/quote]
Yes but BC is a much bigger deal on the Sony side of things because they owned the largest share of the last gen market. I would bet that the percentage of PS3 owners that also owned and had a significant library of games in much higher than 360 owners to original Xbox. The point being many of the 360 adoptors were "new" to MS so BC isn't a big deal.
 
[quote name='Blackout542']Sure it sucks the PS2 games won't work, but did that prevent people from buying 360? I really don't think people are staring at the game systems behind the glass and saying "fuck this! I can't play Fable! fuck this! I can't play GTA 3!" and then walking out of the store without a purchase.[/QUOTE]

Firstly no one is going to not buy a 360 because it can't play PS2 games. Secondly, you can play both Fable and GTA 3 on a 360.
 
[quote name='PawnTakesKing']Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it's only the 40 GB units that make use of the 65nm processors. These run cooler and are supposedly quieter than than 80 GB units. The 60 GB and 80 GB units should have primarily the same tech in them (with the exception of the PS2 EE chip).[/QUOTE]

I think only one of the chips is 65nm in the 40, and I'm fairly certain the improved Bluetooth antenna is supposedly in the 80GBs as well.

In general, I don't think there is enough new tech to make the 80GB a "better experience". It's more tweaks under the hood. I still feel like Sony built the 20/60gb units as absolute tanks, but when they didn't sell as well as maybe they hoped, they started cutting corners here and there. We'll see if the 80/40GB units in general hold up as well (in terms of failure rates) as the 20/60 have in the year since launch...

(I should note this is mainly a theory based on my past experience with new Sony technology, whereby it's rock solid right at launch but they're masters at cutting corners to bring prices down, and unfortunately, reliability)
 
[quote name='PenguinMaster']Firstly no one is going to not buy a 360 because it can't play PS2 games. Secondly, you can play both Fable and GTA 3 on a 360.[/quote]

I didn't mean it like that( was talking about Fable for xbox, and GTA3 for PS2, just random games off the top of my head). I meant that most people are not overly concerned with BC. They see new games for 360, or PS3, or Wii and want to play them. They are not going to be totally turned off and not buy a system because 360 can't play X , or PS3 can't play Y. 360 has a solid enough library where it really doesn't matter, and PS3 is well on its way.
 
Even if it's possible for Sony to add it to the 40 gb it doesn't matter it's a moot point, because Sony has CHOSEN to remove b/c because they said it would help PS3 game sales. Which I think is retarded as hell and a disservice to customers, But it is what it is. I really wish I wasn't such a hardcore gamer that I could just avoid a PS3 forever because I hate how Sony treats us like idiots, but I'll probably give in once MGS 4 and God of War 3 come out.

I mean I have a PS2 (modded, I own about 80 original PS2 games though as well as hundreds of backups. I won't shed a tear for Sony about that either) but it could crap out on me at anytime since I've had the same one since 2001, plus the convience of just playing games on the one console is a plus.
 
if you dont mind used stuff, my gf picked up a used 20gig at gamestop when cashing in some trade in credit (30% coupon ftw) lil scratched up but works great. ended up paying 300 after credits. seemed like a decent deal for us. shes not gonna take it online to much so 20 gb is enough for saves and such.
 
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