"Laborer" from El Salvador charged with Chandra Levy's Murder

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WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A jailed laborer from El Salvador has been charged with first-degree murder in the 2001 slaying of federal intern Chandra Levy, authorities said Tuesday.

The suspect, Ingmar Guandique, is serving a 10-year prison sentence in California for two assaults in Washington's Rock Creek Park that occurred around the time of Levy's disappearance. Levy's remains were found in the park.

The publicity surrounding the Levy case was largely a result of her connection to then-Rep. Gary Condit, D-California. Condit and Levy had an affair and police questioned Condit many times in connection with the murder.

A California native working as an intern for the Federal Bureau of Prisons, the 24-year-old Levy disappeared May 1, 2001. Her remains were found in May 2002 by a man walking his dog in a remote area of the park.

Guandique has been imprisoned at the Federal Correctional Institution-Victorville, a medium-security facility, north of San Bernardino.
Click to expand...
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/03/03/chandra.levy.suspect/

I chose the CNN article for a reason, it like many others, willingly omit the fact that this guy was an illegal immigrant, assualted other women, and after he's convicted of this murder will continue to cost California tax payers tens of thousands of dollars each year to keep him locked up in our country. It drives me mad that news outlets like to tip toe around the fact that he's an illegal immigrant. Not a "laborer" (CNN), not a "incarcerated felon" (ABC News), not "a jailed Salvadoran immigrant" (NBC Bay Area)... OK

Kudos to news outlets that are don't tip toe with this story, USA Today, Wash Times, Wash Post...
/rant
 
Well when somebody is murdered I don't really know that the legality of the immigrant who murdered her is really all that important (besides the issue of where the guy goes to jail, I guess). Just for a more complete description?
 
[quote name='SpazX']Well when somebody is murdered I don't really know that the legality of the immigrant who murdered her is really all that important (besides the issue of where the guy goes to jail, I guess). Just for a more complete description?[/QUOTE]

In many ways it can have everything to do with it. Allowing unfettered access to our country absolutely does raise crime. This murder probably would not have happened if we had actual border policy that wasn't in cobwebs.

I have been trying to find out if he had any past criminal record in El Salvador, if he did then he would never have been legally allowed in.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']In many ways it can have everything to do with it. Allowing unfettered access to our country absolutely does raise crime. This murder probably would not have happened if we had actual border policy that wasn't in cobwebs.

I have been trying to find out if he had any past criminal record in El Salvador, if he did then he would never have been legally allowed in.[/quote]

That's nice, but I don't really think that the point of the news story was to discuss border control.

When murders are reported you usually get the suspect's name, age, maybe where they're from, maybe occupation. I just don't think that the articles that don't specifically say he was an illegal immigrant are necessarily "tip toeing" around it.
 
Who gives a shit if hes an illegal immigrant, he got caught, the family can now be relieved of this drama and she can finally rest in peace.
 
The right-wing media has done such a great job of painting illegal immigrants as the scum of our nation... it's sad that you see his immigration status as significant.
 
[quote name='Koggit']The right-wing media has done such a great job of painting illegal immigrants immigration as the scum of our nation... it's sad that you see his immigration status as significant.[/QUOTE]


Umm. Sure...:roll:

Fixed.

The left-wing media has made an awesome job of making the issue appear to be about immigrants, instead of immigration, thus ensuring nothing gets fixed.
 
Don't forget everyone, Americans don't commit crimes, only the scum of the earth (illegals) would dare commit a crime on American soil.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']Umm. Sure...:roll:

Fixed.

The left-wing media has made an awesome job of making the issue appear to be about immigrants, instead of immigration, thus ensuring nothing gets fixed.[/QUOTE]

It's illegal. What more do you want?

It's just not that serious a problem. We're not gonna launch a billion dollar crusade against jaywalkers, either.
 
[quote name='Koggit']It's illegal. What more do you want?

It's just not that serious a problem. We're not gonna launch a billion dollar crusade against jaywalkers, either.[/QUOTE]

If you were a cop or worked in a hospital you wouldn't have that opinion.
 
[quote name='Koggit']It's illegal. What more do you want?

It's just not that serious a problem. We're not gonna launch a billion dollar crusade against jaywalkers, either.[/QUOTE]

jaywalking doesnt take away thousands of jobs from americans and cost billions of dollars a year in medical, education and judical costs.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']If you were a cop or worked in a hospital you wouldn't have that opinion.[/QUOTE]
My brother was a cop. He didn't have that opinion.
Now he's a firefighter. He doesn't have that opinion.
My mother is a teacher. She doesn't have that opinion.
My father is a teacher. He doesn't have that opinion.
My stepfather is a 911 dispatcher. He doesn't have that opinion.
My grandmother was a librarian. She doesn't have that opinion.
My wife is in law. She doesn't have that opinion.
My sister-in-law works in a hospital. She doesn't have that opinion.
My brother-in-law is in engineering. He doesn't have that opinion.

All of them in border states.
 
[quote name='RAMSTORIA']jaywalking doesnt take away thousands of jobs from americans and cost billions of dollars a year in medical, education and judical costs.[/QUOTE]

And jaywalking doesn't take millions out of poverty and give their children a chance at a better life..

What's your point, again?

Illegal immigration's not a big deal.. it shouldn't be legal and it isn't. It's not as big an issue as Hannity and Limbaugh have convinced you it is.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']So we're supposed to believe this, and not that Gary Condit was responsible?

Dang.[/quote]

Damn it. I wanted to make the first Condit reference. Well, here goes...

Yep, another job goes to a fucking emmagant: Patsy.
 
[quote name='Koggit']It's illegal. What more do you want?

It's just not that serious a problem. We're not gonna launch a billion dollar crusade against jaywalkers, either.[/QUOTE]

I think what he and most Americans want is enforcement, which has been incredibly lax.

And it is certainly a serious problem. Firstly, it's a serious problem because of the heavily armed gangs of drug and human traffickers who are allowed to cross the border. Secondly, it's a problem of fairness to the thousands who attempt to legally come to this country and see these criminals cut in line. Thirdly, it's a problem that we selectively enforce our own laws. Fourthly, it's a problem in terms of potential national security implications beyond the criminal element (which is bad enough).
 
[quote name='mykevermin']So we're supposed to believe this, and not that Gary Condit was responsible?

Dang.[/quote]

I'll be damned... Condit did such a great job making himself look guilty... he had half the nation believing he was responsible! ;)
 
I'm not sure what you want the news outlets to do here. You seem to think that they should put an emphasis on his legal status, but to what end? Why should it matter? I really don't think it would do anything but perprtuate anti-undocumented worker sentiments and/or further stigmatize a group of already marginalized people.

Also, you're up in arms about the cost of keeping him imprisoned, but what would the alternative be? Sending him back to El Salvador? If he's determined enough, he'd make his way back.
 
[quote name='Koggit']And jaywalking doesn't take millions out of poverty and give their children a chance at a better life..

What's your point, again?

Illegal immigration's not a big deal.. it shouldn't be legal and it isn't. It's not as big an issue as Hannity and Limbaugh have convinced you it is.[/quote]

Of course it's a huge deal... look at our school system, filled with future dropouts and people who barely speak English. Even ultra-liberal George Skelton at the LA times admits they are a factor in our current California budget crisis: http://www.latimes.com/news/columnists/la-me-cap2-2009feb02,0,418500.column

Also, pick any county hospital in LA: LAC+USC, Harbor, or Olive View... take your pick, I guarantee that
 
Who cares if they're a "factor in our economic crisis".. seriously..

You're a fucking doctor, dude. Pretty sure you've got enough money to lose a few bucks on improving the lives of fellow men -- you sure as hell aren't self-made, none of us are.

Illegal immigration's really not a big deal at all. Do a few of my tax dollars go to them when they shouldn't? Yeah. But guess what, I still don't fucking live in Mexico so I'm happy.

It's not right for many reasons, but it's hard to call it all that wrong...

But whatever you guys can be pricks if you want, I won't mind. Most people are selfish pricks, it's okay.
 
[quote name='elprincipe']I think what he and most Americans want is enforcement, which has been incredibly lax.

And it is certainly a serious problem. Firstly, it's a serious problem because of the heavily armed gangs of drug and human traffickers who are allowed to cross the border. Secondly, it's a problem of fairness to the thousands who attempt to legally come to this country and see these criminals cut in line. Thirdly, it's a problem that we selectively enforce our own laws. Fourthly, it's a problem in terms of potential national security implications beyond the criminal element (which is bad enough).[/QUOTE]

Well said. And that's the tip of the iceberg.

Koggit is seriously being obtuse on this one, I think even Obama would admit it's more of a big deal, but nobody's perfect.
 
[quote name='Koggit']Who cares if they're a "factor in our economic crisis".. seriously..

You're a fucking doctor, dude. Pretty sure you've got enough money to lose a few bucks on improving the lives of fellow men -- you sure as hell aren't self-made, none of us are.

Illegal immigration's really not a big deal at all. Do a few of my tax dollars go to them when they shouldn't? Yeah. But guess what, I still don't fucking live in Mexico so I'm happy.

It's not right for many reasons, but it's hard to call it all that wrong...

But whatever you guys can be pricks if you want, I won't mind. Most people are selfish pricks, it's okay.[/QUOTE]

We are "selfish pricks" to prefer that our laws be enforced? We are "selfish pricks" to want to stop drug and human trafficking? We are "selfish pricks" to want to stop criminal gang activity, often violent? We are "selfish pricks" to want honest, LEGAL immigrants to be preferred over law-breaking illegals? We are selfish pricks to want to close our borders to potential terrorist threats? I guess I'm a selfish prick then.

BTW, I also support increasing legal immigration.
 
Yes, that's exactly right, because my posts have indicated that I encourage and support illegal immigration, right?

No -- as I've repeatedly stated, it's a problem, it's just not that serious of a problem because there are positive aspects as well. I don't think we should bend over and encourage illegal immigration, just as I don't think we should encourage jaywalking -- but in both cases, I think our current (relatively lax) enforcement of the existing laws is warranted by the relatively low detriment. They're gray-ish crimes for different reasons... jaywalking hardly affects anyway, illegal immigration has a much greater effect but it's not all easily objectionable.
 
[quote name='Koggit']Yes, that's exactly right, because my posts have indicated that I encourage and support illegal immigration, right?

No -- as I've repeatedly stated, it's a problem, it's just not that serious of a problem because there are positive aspects as well. I don't think we should bend over and encourage illegal immigration, just as I don't think we should encourage jaywalking -- but in both cases, I think our current (relatively lax) enforcement of the existing laws is warranted by the relatively low detriment. They're gray-ish crimes for different reasons... jaywalking hardly affects anyway, illegal immigration has a much greater effect but it's not all easily objectionable.[/QUOTE]

I'd pay very good money to be a spectator in a room with you and the family of one of the (increasingly growing number of) victims of rape or murder by someone that would never have been allowed here if our borders actually were secure, and have you make that argument to them. I'll cherish the look on their face as you explain that it was just a caused by just a "grayish" crime, and explain their loss is part of the "low detriment".

Until it happens to your sister or girlfriend, you'll not change that tune though, I suspect.
 
[quote name='Koggit']Sorry you can't see beyond arbitrary political borders[/quote]

Maybe you should provide answers than trying to be a dick about it. Personally, I don't care about this subject. Just answer the guy's question.
 
To ask the question is indication enough that he wouldn't care for the answer. It's clearly a difference in ideology, just like BigT doesn't want his tax money going to welfare despite the fact that he's surely well enough off to spare it. It's just a fundamental difference of opinion that isn't worth arguing. I think we should strive for everyone to have a good quality of life before anyone has great quality of life -- conservatives generally disagree. What good is gonna come from arguing such a fundamental difference? Neither side is necessarily right.

Why I have trouble fully opposing illegal immigration is essentially just because it's an improved quality of life (for the immigrants). They have it much, much worse than I do -- they come here and obtain a significant gain at my slight loss. I have trouble objecting to that. They save for years to pay a coyote because they can't get in legally and then work for less than minimum wage. It's hard to consider that and say "those bastards should've stayed in Mexico!" Yeah, they aren't paying taxes and are using some federal/state services after breaking the law to get here, it's unfair, especially for those waiting in line to immigrate legally, but it's pretty myopic to only see 'I lose a couple dollars and some of them commit violent crimes'.

Again, to reiterate, I don't condone illegal immigration and wish all immigrants would adhere to immigration guidelines, I just can't justify super strict border control given the fact that I see the illegal border crossings as somewhat bittersweet. It should be illegal, and it is - the law should be enforced, and it is. It's laxly enforced, relative to how large a threat some view it, but I'm okay with that.
 
[quote name='RAMSTORIA']wait, what? what are the positive aspects?[/quote]

I would argue that paying somebody less than minimum wage and no benefits reduces the price an employer has to charge his customers for his goods and services to remain profitable.

That would be a positive aspect.
 
[quote name='Koggit']
Why I have trouble fully opposing illegal immigration is essentially just because it's an improved quality of life (for the immigrants). They have it much, much worse than I do -- they come here and obtain a significant gain at my slight loss. I have trouble objecting to that. They save for years to pay a coyote because they can't get in legally and then work for less than minimum wage. It's hard to consider that and say "those bastards should've stayed in Mexico!" Yeah, they aren't paying taxes and are using some federal/state services after breaking the law to get here, it's unfair, especially for those waiting in line to immigrate legally, but it's pretty myopic to only see 'I lose a couple dollars and some of them commit violent crimes'.

Again, to reiterate, I don't condone illegal immigration and wish all immigrants would adhere to immigration guidelines, I just can't justify super strict border control given the fact that I see the illegal border crossings as somewhat bittersweet. It should be illegal, and it is - the law should be enforced, and it is. It's laxly enforced, relative to how large a threat some view it, but I'm okay with that.[/QUOTE]

I guess if I weren't currently filling out stacks of paperwork and saving up the $3,000 it costs to get my wife her green card, because we play by the rules, aren't criminals, and respect laws, it's going to be pretty hard for me to share your compassionate-to-a-fault sentiments.

You know who some of the biggest advocates of immigration reform are? Immigrants. Why? Because ultimately it makes THEIR LIVES UNSAFE. Yes, it's true. You never hear about it in the news much, but it does. Immigrants that come here legally are usually pretty poor as well - but they've proven they abide by laws, and are generally always good people because they respect law. They want a better life for their families, they can only afford poor housing as they drive away at the American dream. Then floods of illegals, many of which are criminals back home, come over and live in the exact same neighborhoods they do. They create gangs. They sell drugs. And why wouldn't they? If they get deported, they'll be back a week later.

Illegal immigration affects the safety of legal immigrants perhaps most of all.

It doesn't trouble you at all that anyone in the entire world that wishes ill will on you, or any other American, only has to go to Mexico and walk a few miles in order to be at your doorstep? You seriously let that slide off your back as a "possible, unlikely, but necessary" fact to help some poor dudes out?

Oh and do you have any idea how many illegals, percentage wise, fills up our prisons? Is that part of the "giving" you are ok with, to help out the less fortunate? Any idea what that costs? But I guess by your logic, even our prison system is probably better than where they came from, at least they get food all the time, right? So I guess we should smile and feel philanthropic over packing our prisons up with people that should never have been able to come in the first place, but it is a step up in quality of life for them, right?
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']Oh and do you have any idea how many illegals, percentage wise, fills up our prisons? Is that part of the "giving" you are ok with, to help out the less fortunate? Any idea what that costs? But I guess by your logic, even our prison system is probably better than where they came from, at least they get food all the time, right? So I guess we should smile and feel philanthropic over packing our prisons up with people that should never have been able to come in the first place, but it is a step up in quality of life for them, right?[/quote]

You don't get it. It doesn't affect him because he doesn't think about it, and so far his life is untouched by the tradgedy that follows a viscious crime committed by an illegal immigrant. It's all about how it affects Koggit. Chandra Levy - if Koggit doesn't care about her, tough noogies. This is the same guy who doesn't think farmers have the right to arm themselves and protect their property against potentially dangerous intruders. He knows everything because he's taken philosophy 101 and reads the New Yorker. Wait till the kid starts paying taxes...
 
You guys are combining two arguments.. the crimes of drug traffickers and the crimes of illegal immigrants.. they're not one in the same. It'll likely get messy if we discuss them simultaneously. This thread was to discuss illegal immigrants, not international drug dealers. I'm willing to switch gears, but there must be a clear separation between the two or I just know someone here will attempt to make my points seem contradictory.

To summarize, I support the war on drugs & strict border control to prevent drug trafficking, as oftentimes our only real option when catching those involved is deportation -- but this is not a contradiction of my opposition to stricter handling of illegal immigration, as despite crime rates disproportionate to all American, the numbers fall right in line with their income class (if anything, it's an argument against poverty, not illegal immigration), just as back crime rates as disproportionate -- poor people commit more crimes.

I'll further discuss one or the other, if you'd like.. not both simultaneously.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']
Oh and do you have any idea how many illegals, percentage wise, fills up our prisons? [/QUOTE]

Do you have a number for that? Or just spouting rhetoric?

I'm sure there are a lot--prisons are mostly full of lower class people--be they illegal immigrants, legal immigrants or citizen's.

But I've never seen any valid source show that more illegals end up in prison compared to legal residents of similar socio-economic status living in the same areas/conditions.

And I don't mean that to support illegal immigration, as I certainly don't. But I've never thought the crime angle was a very strong argument against it compared to other factors (health care, education of their kids, cheap labor taking jobs from others, simply not obeying the immigration law etc. etc.).
 
[quote name='camoor']You don't get it. It doesn't affect him because he doesn't think about it, and so far his life is untouched by the tradgedy that follows a viscious crime committed by an illegal immigrant. It's all about how it affects Koggit. Chandra Levy - if Koggit doesn't care about her, tough noogies. This is the same guy who doesn't think farmers have the right to arm themselves and protect their property against potentially dangerous intruders. He knows everything because he's taken philosophy 101 and reads the New Yorker. Wait till the kid starts paying taxes...[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I think I know exactly what you mean.

[quote name='Koggit']You guys are combining two arguments.. the crimes of drug traffickers and the crimes of illegal immigrants.. [/quote]
Actually they very easily can be grouped together. Drug traffickers are, and use, illegal aliens, and our lax border policy to be as powerful as they are.

[quote name='dmaul1114']Do you have a number for that? Or just spouting rhetoric?

I'm sure there are a lot--prisons are mostly full of lower class people--be they illegal immigrants, legal immigrants or citizen's.

But I've never seen any valid source show that more illegals end up in prison compared to legal residents of similar socio-economic status living in the same areas/conditions.

And I don't mean that to support illegal immigration, as I certainly don't. But I've never thought the crime angle was a very strong argument against it compared to other factors (health care, education of their kids, cheap labor taking jobs from others, simply not obeying the immigration law etc. etc.).[/QUOTE]

This isn't really my forte, you can easily google it and get all kinds of numbers. Suffice it to say, it's a lot. Suffice it to say, it's a lot more than it has to be. That's the point. I would hope Mykevermin could chime in here as I would trust his statistics more than anyone's on the matter.

Of course it is easy to spin the stats into just an income bracket. But that doesn't change the fact that any violent person in the world, can easily get into this country through our porous border, saying that they are poor isn't an excuse for their crime when they should never have gotten in.

Unless you are somehow trying to make the argument that we'd have the same amount of criminals in prisons, if there were no illegals in them.

And I do think the people that jump through the hoops to LEGALLY get into this country, even though they are still often dirt poor, are far less likely to be criminals.
 
[quote name='Koggit']Yes, that's exactly right, because my posts have indicated that I encourage and support illegal immigration, right?

No -- as I've repeatedly stated, it's a problem, it's just not that serious of a problem because there are positive aspects as well. I don't think we should bend over and encourage illegal immigration, just as I don't think we should encourage jaywalking -- but in both cases, I think our current (relatively lax) enforcement of the existing laws is warranted by the relatively low detriment. They're gray-ish crimes for different reasons... jaywalking hardly affects anyway, illegal immigration has a much greater effect but it's not all easily objectionable.[/QUOTE]

oh cmon, it takes away from immigrants who want to take the legal route to improve their lives. so what, screw them?

you say we shouldnt bend over backwards to encourage illegal immigration... but thats exactly what our government does with sanctuary cities, birth right, and lax enforcement of laws.

most people would be happy, myself included, if we just enforced our laws and kept a better eye on the borders, but its pretty much non-existant as it is. nobody here is clamouring for "super strict", as you put it, border control, just enforcement of the already existing laws.

finally, whats with the jay walking talk?

[quote name='camoor']You don't get it. It doesn't affect him because he doesn't think about it, and so far his life is untouched by the tradgedy that follows a viscious crime committed by an illegal immigrant. It's all about how it affects Koggit. Chandra Levy - if Koggit doesn't care about her, tough noogies. This is the same guy who doesn't think farmers have the right to arm themselves and protect their property against potentially dangerous intruders. He knows everything because he's taken philosophy 101 and reads the New Yorker. Wait till the kid starts paying taxes...[/QUOTE]

hmm, is camoor more conservative than i thought, or does he just not like koggit... :whistle2:k

[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']I would argue that paying somebody less than minimum wage and no benefits reduces the price an employer has to charge his customers for his goods and services to remain profitable.

That would be a positive aspect.[/QUOTE]

sure, i guess its nice that you save a few bucks here and there... but the employer doesnt pay his taxes, the workers dont pay his taxes, and those jobs could be filled by tax paying american citizens.

[quote name='dmaul1114']Do you have a number for that? Or just spouting rhetoric?

[/QUOTE]

about 20% of federal inmates are non-citizens and 6.5% of state inmates are non-citzens.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/pjim05.pdf

but i do agree that the cost of education, medicine, jobs are better arguements than the cost of crime, but the cost of crime is still right up there. and like thrust said, phoenix is the kidnapping capital of the US and the 2nd in the world thanks to illegal immigrants and drug trafficers. i mean, thats mind boggling.
 
Dammit thrust, you've gone and acted like dmaul doesn't have a degree in baloney.. now he has the opportunity to come in and remind everyone about how he's Future Dr. Baloney from The Past. We're doomed.

[quote name='thrustbucket']Actually they very easily can be grouped together. Drug traffickers are, and use, illegal aliens, and our lax border policy to be as powerful as they are.[/QUOTE]

They're separate issues.. if you won't admit that, I'm done.
 
I don't exactly agree with Koggit either, but you are conflating two issues. I doubt that getting into the country illegally greatly increases somebody's willingness to commit crimes (other than getting into the country illegally, of course). Why else would so many illegals work for so little pay if they were willing to just commit crimes to get money, which is much more lucrative.

And I doubt you can even get accurate statistics on what percentage of illegal immigrants commit crimes after getting into the country. When someone is arrested then it's easy to check their legal status, but otherwise it's not like they're easy to track. And it's not "spinning" the statistics if they are easily explained by socioeconomic status.

I agree that violent people and/or those with past criminal records shouldn't be let into the country so easily, but I really doubt that's a majority of the people who come in illegally. I think a better way to solve that problem is to make it easier for people to immigrate legally so that you are better able to check their backgrounds before they come in (and so they aren't able to be used as slave labor). You can increase border patrols as well, as long as nobody builds a bigass wall, that's just stupid.

It's impossible to keep everybody out, and crimes are going to happen no matter what you do, but you have to try to stop the ones who are drug trafficking, etc. while encouraging others to immigrate legally, and that's not going to happen without changing the way legal immigration works.
 
[quote name='RAMSTORIA']
about 20% of federal inmates are non-citizens and 6.5% of state inmates are non-citzens.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/pjim05.pdf

but i do agree that the cost of education, medicine, jobs are better arguements than the cost of crime, but the cost of crime is still right up there. and like thrust said, phoenix is the kidnapping capital of the US and the 2nd in the world thanks to illegal immigrants and drug trafficers. i mean, thats mind boggling.[/QUOTE]

Thanks. That's higher than I'd have thought (corrections isn't my area, I study policing).

So touche' thrust, as the crime argument holds more water than I'd have thought.
 
[quote name='RAMSTORIA']sure, i guess its nice that you save a few bucks here and there... but the employer doesnt pay his taxes, the workers dont pay his taxes, and those jobs could be filled by tax paying american citizens.
[/quote]

Just playing devil's advocate. I wouldn't mind paying an extra nickel for my canned goods just because an unskilled American was handling my food in the fields.
 
[quote name='SpazX']You can increase border patrols as well, as long as nobody builds a bigass wall, that's just stupid.[/quote]

Why would building a 20 foot high 5 foot thick reinforced concrete wall topped with razor wire be ineffective?

Is it the tunnels running under the wall or that the wall would have to be thousands of miles long?

A little ground penetrating radar nixes tunnels and each section of wall would create smaller chokepoints.
 
If you want to help the less fortunate, donate to the Salvation Army. Tax money should go to benefit tax payers.

[quote name='Koggit']To ask the question is indication enough that he wouldn't care for the answer. It's clearly a difference in ideology, just like BigT doesn't want his tax money going to welfare despite the fact that he's surely well enough off to spare it. It's just a fundamental difference of opinion that isn't worth arguing. I think we should strive for everyone to have a good quality of life before anyone has great quality of life -- conservatives generally disagree. What good is gonna come from arguing such a fundamental difference? Neither side is necessarily right.

Why I have trouble fully opposing illegal immigration is essentially just because it's an improved quality of life (for the immigrants). They have it much, much worse than I do -- they come here and obtain a significant gain at my slight loss. I have trouble objecting to that. They save for years to pay a coyote because they can't get in legally and then work for less than minimum wage. It's hard to consider that and say "those bastards should've stayed in Mexico!" Yeah, they aren't paying taxes and are using some federal/state services after breaking the law to get here, it's unfair, especially for those waiting in line to immigrate legally, but it's pretty myopic to only see 'I lose a couple dollars and some of them commit violent crimes'.

Again, to reiterate, I don't condone illegal immigration and wish all immigrants would adhere to immigration guidelines, I just can't justify super strict border control given the fact that I see the illegal border crossings as somewhat bittersweet. It should be illegal, and it is - the law should be enforced, and it is. It's laxly enforced, relative to how large a threat some view it, but I'm okay with that.[/quote]
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Thanks. That's higher than I'd have thought (corrections isn't my area, I study policing).

So touche' thrust, as the crime argument holds more water than I'd have thought.[/quote]

Not that the numbers aren't relevant, but I'd just like to point out that all noncitizens aren't necessarily illegal immigrants, and the numbers from New York (which make up a significant number of the total) and Colorado (not that significant) include all foreign-born inmates, not just noncitizens. Also, the crime rate would depend on the comparison of those who have committed crimes to those who haven't, not just the percentage of prisoners who are illegal immigrants.

[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Why would building a 20 foot high 5 foot thick reinforced concrete wall topped with razor wire be ineffective?

Is it the tunnels running under the wall or that the wall would have to be thousands of miles long?

A little ground penetrating radar nixes tunnels and each section of wall would create smaller chokepoints.[/quote]

I admit, you make a good point, but to maximize effectiveness you might want to add in some satellite-based infrared monitoring in addition to the radar and some automated laser turrets in case some get through.
 
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