London's Burning OR Anarchy in the U.K.

Clak

CAGiversary!
Alright, I cant' help it that so many punk rock songs apply to the rioting happening in London right now.;)

Seriously though, anyone have any thoughts as to what is keeping this going? Supposedly it started when the police shot and killed someone, now it seems like it's more of a social outrage and people just looting for the sake of stealing shit.
 
Protesting is fine, rioters are stupid and misdirected. Already a few people died, surpassing whatever the original outrage was about one death. Now let's steal stuff from people who did nothing wrong and decrease our property values. And let's put more lives in danger, increase the overtime for police, and show the rest of the world we are as stupid and destructive as them. YAH
 
I heard that it was an unarmed black man was killed by police. He had 4 kids. But like I said, this is what I heard, so I could be wrong as hell on this one.

I'd guess that some of it is outrage and some of it is plain mayhem. No clue as to the ratio though. The thing that's even more interesting to me is that when something like that happens here, most people tend to blame the victim, whereas when you have a country with far better class consciousness, you have riots on the streets on "lesser" stuff like raising tuition or making cuts to the social safety net. Over here, people fight to make those cuts happen. It's simply mind-boggling.
 
I thought this was a good article. More informative than newscasters on TV saying "shame on those kids!" instead of reporting anything of worth.


direct link

I'm huddled in the front room with some shell-shocked friends, watching my city burn. The BBC is interchanging footage of blazing cars and running street battles in Hackney, of police horses lining up in Lewisham, of roiling infernos that were once shops and houses in Croydon and in Peckham. Last night, Enfield, Walthamstow, Brixton and Wood Green were looted; there have been hundreds of arrests and dozens of serious injuries, and it will be a miracle if nobody dies tonight.

This is the third consecutive night of rioting in London, and the disorder has now spread to Leeds, Liverpool, Bristol and Birmingham. Politicians and police officers who only hours ago were making stony-faced statements about criminality are now simply begging the young people of Britain's inner cities to go home.

Britain is a tinderbox, and on Friday, somebody lit a match. How the hell did this happen? And what are we going to do now?

Obvious denouncement

In the scramble to comprehend the riots, every single commentator has opened with a ritual condemnation of the violence, as if it were in any doubt that arson, muggings and lootings are ugly occurrences. That much should be obvious to anyone who is watching Croydon burn down on the BBC right now. David Lammy, MP for Tottenham, called the disorder "mindless, mindless". Nick Clegg denounced it as "needless, opportunistic theft and violence". Speaking from his Tuscan holiday villa, Prime Minister David Cameron - who has finally decided to return home to take charge - declared simply that the social unrest searing through the poorest boroughs in the country was "utterly unacceptable".

The violence on the streets is being dismissed as "pure criminality", as the work of a "violent minority", as "opportunism". This is madly insufficient. It is no way to talk about viral civil unrest. Angry young people with nothing to do and little to lose are turning on their own communities, and they cannot be stopped, and they know it. Tonight, in one of the greatest cities in the world, society is ripping itself apart.

Violence is rarely mindless. The politics of a burning building, a smashed-in shop or a young man shot by police may be obscured even to those who lit the rags or fired the gun, but the politics are there. Unquestionably there is far, far more to these riots than the death of Mark Duggan, whose shooting sparked off the unrest on Saturday when two police cars were set alight after a five-hour vigil at Tottenham police station.

A peaceful protest over the death of a man at police hands, in a community where locals have been given every reason to mistrust the forces of law and order, is one sort of political statement. Raiding shops for technology and trainers that cost ten times as much as the benefits you're no longer entitled to is another. A co-ordinated, viral wave of civil unrest across the poorest boroughs of Britain, with young people coming from across the capital and the country to battle the police, is another.

Speculation

Months of conjecture will follow these riots. Already, the internet is teeming with racist vitriol and wild speculation. The truth is that very few people know why this is happening. They don't know, because they were not watching these communities. Nobody has been watching Tottenham since the television cameras drifted away after the Broadwater Farm riots of 1985.

Most of the people who will be writing, speaking and pontificating about the disorder this weekend have absolutely no idea what it is like to grow up in a community where there are no jobs, no space to live or move, and the police are on the streets stopping-and-searching you as you come home from school. The people who do will be waking up this week in the sure and certain knowledge that after decades of being ignored and marginalised and harassed by the police, after months of not seeing any conceivable hope of a better future confiscated, they are finally on the news.

In one NBC report, a young man in Tottenham was asked if rioting really achieved anything:

"Yes," said the young man. "You wouldn't be talking to me now if we didn't riot, would you?

Two months ago we marched to Scotland Yard, more than 2,000 of us, all blacks, and it was peaceful and calm and you know what? Not a word in the press. Last night, a bit of rioting and looting and look around you."

Eavesdropping from among the onlookers, I looked around. A dozen TV crews and newspaper reporters interviewing the young men everywhere.

There are communities all over the country that nobody paid attention to unless there had recently been a riot or a murdered child. Well, they're paying attention now.

Tonight in London, social order and the rule of law have broken down entirely. The city has been brought to a standstill; it is not safe to go out onto the streets, and where I am in Holloway, the violence is coming closer. As I write, the looting and arson attacks have spread to at least fifty different areas across the UK, including dozens in London, and communities are now turning on each other, with the Guardian reporting on rival gangs forming battle lines. It has become clear to the disenfranchised young people of Britain, who feel that they have no stake in society and nothing to lose, that they can do what they like tonight, and the police are utterly unable to stop them. That is what riots are all about.

Power

Riots are about power, and they are about catharsis. They are not about poor parenting, or youth services being cut, or any of the other snap explanations that media pundits have been trotting out. Structural inequalities, as a friend of mine remarked today, are not solved by a few pool tables.

People riot because it makes them feel powerful, even if only for a night. People riot because they have spent their whole lives being told that they are good for nothing, and they realise that together they can do anything - literally, anything at all. People to whom respect has never been shown riot because they feel they have little reason to show respect themselves, and it spreads like fire on a warm summer night. And now people have lost their homes, and the country is tearing itself apart.

No one expected this. The so-called leaders who have taken three solid days to return from their foreign holidays to a country in flames did not anticipate this. The people running Britain had absolutely no clue how desperate things had become. They thought that after thirty years of soaring inequality, in the middle of a recession, they could take away the last little things that gave people hope, the benefits, the jobs, the possibility of higher education, the support structures, and nothing would happen. They were wrong. And now my city is burning, and it will continue to burn until we stop the blanket condemnations and blind conjecture and try to understand just what has brought viral civil unrest to Britain. Let me give you a hint: it ain't Twitter.

I'm stuck in the house, now, with rioting going on just down the road in Chalk Farm. Ealing and Clapham and Dalston are being trashed. Journalists are being mugged and beaten in the streets, and the riot cops are in retreat where they have appeared at all. Police stations are being set alight all over the country.

This morning, as the smoke begins to clear, those of us who can sleep will wake up to a country in chaos. We will wake up to fear, and to racism, and to condemnation on left and right, none of which will stop this happening again, as the prospect of a second stock market crash teeters terrifyingly at the bottom of the news reports. Now is the time when we make our choices. Now is the time when we decide whether to descend into hate, or to put prejudice aside and work together. Now is the time when we decide what sort of country it is that we want to live in. Follow the #riotcleanup hashtag on Twitter. And take care of one another.

Laurie Penny is a 24-year-old author and blogger from London, who writes for New Statesman, The Guardian and others. This work, originally posted to her award-winning blog is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Non-Commercial 2.0 UK: England & Wales License.
 
[quote name='panzerfaust']I thought this was a good article. More informative than newscasters on TV saying "shame on those kids!" instead of reporting anything of worth.


direct link
[/QUOTE]

[quote name='panzerfaust']Also this video seems to be blowing up right now

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biJgILxGK0o&feature=related[/QUOTE]
At the end of that video, the poster said "She doesn't know what to do because she's an idiot." LOLOLZ

Much thanks for the links as well. Now I'm going to start reading up on it some more. If you have any more quick sources, would you mind posting them?
 
I'm used to hearing about small riots happening from time to time in the UK, it happened back when they raised university tuition. This though, this seems different. This seems to be the culmination of anger that has been building for quite some time. That man being shot by the police may have set it off, but it isn't still going because of it. I can't remember seeing rioting this bad in any western country, at least in recent memory. It doesn't seem likely to end any time soon either.
 
[quote name='Clak']I'm used to hearing about small riots happening from time to time in the UK, it happened back when they raised university tuition. This though, this seems different. This seems to be the culmination of anger that has been building for quite some time. That man being shot by the police may have set it off, but it isn't still going because of it. I can't remember seeing rioting this bad in any western country, at least in recent memory. It doesn't seem likely to end any time soon either.[/QUOTE]
LA Riots from Rodney King and the Watts Riots, also in LA. There was an all out race war against black people during Katrina, but I don't think that counts as a riot.
 
Were the LA riots this bad though? I barely remember when it happened, but I don't remember it being this bad.
 
[quote name='Clak']Were the LA riots this bad though? I barely remember when it happened, but I don't remember it being this bad.[/QUOTE]
They were Very bad. Worse than the one in the UK. It was so bad that the US Army was called in.
 
Holy fuck.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1b74BdPfSQ


And some articles about the psychology of rioters:
http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/08/201189165143946889.html
http://mindhacks.com/2011/08/10/riot-psychology/

Another editorial(not sure of its source and its a wall of text):
There is no better way for a supposedly civilized nation to behave than summarily executing the lower classes and wallowing in the gore. There's nothing more British than the savage beating of an Other while whistling the national anthem before telling your kids the futures safe now with a gift of human skulls.

What amazes me is the need to square understanding with support. It's not possible to give a nuanced view of the situation in Britain, you have to be behind the Police and crying into your Union Jack demanding that these scum, these filth get flown off to Afghanistan to murder some farmers in order to prove just how deep your love for Britain goes. Oh, we all love Britain, who loves it more?

Is it the EDL, those staunch supporters of British colonial values and the straight arm salute derived from noted anglophiles and allies the National Socialist party? Is it the Bullingdon crowd? Surely you can't love Britain more than a millionaire conservative group with a fetish for pissing on the poor.

Maybe it's the middle classes, who love to drink wine while pointing out the failings of the state and how we all need to lock more poor people up, take away their benefits, and see to it that their feral children are given a short sharp shock can't help but have the countries best interests at heart. They're speaking with passion, you can tell from the anger at events hours away in most cases. Maybe we should just set dogs on kids, that will teach the little swines.

That's what it comes down to, feral children, broken Britain. It's better to call them feral, that way you get around messy little issues like humanity and dignity, and the right to a voice and opinion. You can ignore the social issues in favour of calling them beasts, and it saves a lot of time and effort to just go straight to wanting us to show Iran, Egypt and Syria just how it's done with pornographic fantasies about just how brutally the police should beat some 14 year old lad they find out in the street.

Riots do not happen in a vacuum, they don't emerge from the aether with an air of mystery and start to lay waste to everything around them. This isn't Lindisfarne in the 8th century where you can get away with describing the raiders as demons and write the whole thing off as an act of evil. There are very real economic problems, and things are bleak for these people, they've tried to talk, they've watched protests and seen they get nothing. Anti war, student protests, they come and go and nobody cares.

So why should anyone care about their rundown area, with their rundown homes, and their absolute lack of future? You have to bootstrap yourself out of poverty kids, there's no social ladders for you to climb in Britain where we have the worst social mobility rate in Europe, it'll just make you even more impressive when you get to the top if you bloody your hands on the rocks and be sure to boot those climbing behind you down. The media is on them now, people are watching but still nobody will actually listen, that would be hard and mean introspection, perhaps realising your views are the bad guy.

Riots happen when law and order breakdown and people feel they have nothing left to lose. When gangs kill one another and look at the crime as the only badge of honour they'll receive in their life. When the police are corrupt and cover up killings as a matter of course while taking backhanders and getting trips to the country on the dime of the media in exchange for favours.

When the government preaches austerity for the masses while pouring honey down the throats of capital. The top pisses on the bottom and then reacts with horror when the urine soaked classes bites their ankles. With a straight face they'll piss all the harder even as teeth break on bone.

The people cheer leading the government and the most extreme measures possible are also getting pissed on, but the thing is it keeps them cool and refreshed and they're willing to hold down those beneath them just as long as they're occasionally given a towel to mop their brow. It's a farce and it's incredible that the same logic comes round every time asking why people in poverty can afford phones, why they dress the way they do.

It's because we've created a society powered by consumerism. The top thrives on certain ways of speech, certain actions, the bottom works the same way. If you're not wearing a certain set of clothes then you're not worth talking to. It goes past food, it goes past logic and it is powered by forces that pile the pressure on. It's why poor kids need these things, they see a church where others see a shop; and everything around them says buy.

Then when the rage comes it focuses on these places of worship, they're there to take what is denied them or supposedly has value and they'll cause chaos, because there's nothing else to do. There's no future, there's no education, there's no god, and there is no authority worth listening to except consumerism and that need. When you take away education, when you utterly fail a generation, and then you label them as savages they will hit a point where they see their power.

There's power in numbers and there is power in violence and vandalism. There is no politics for these people, but what they do is driven by politics. When you disenfranchise people, when you forget that they are human beings and you are willing to engage in discussions that are utterly barbaric rather than look to the underlying causes of issues then you are the problem. This whole cycle starts again but smaller, and smaller until things spiral out of control in terrible ways because it's a short step from demanding brutal action without looking at causation to praising brutal action without cause.

Riots are inherently criminal, they involve horrible things happening to people who do not deserve such things to happen to them. Violence toward an innocent is deplorable in any context, be it bombing a wedding and calling it justified military action, or burning down someones house. Riots are the end result of societies failure to address issues and though the blame lies with individuals, the root cause is what gave them the cause to break the social contract.

This is the fact that the social contract has not been honoured. We take and take and take from the poorest, we demonize them and laugh at their futures, we make pompous statements from a comfy seti about how they deserve their lot while giving everything to those who already have everything and besmirching the names of those who point out the disparity. In power we have people who collude with the elite to follow a failed ideology, while robbing as much as they can. Their riot is one happens in whispers and they loot our money, they loot our well being, and most of all they loot our humanity as they turn other classes against one another.

The only true winners are the romans who watch the brawl and grow fatter while the mob enjoys the circus.

When you lack empathy, and you believe you sound masculine, or find it empowering to express just how much you hate a group of people, when you believe it's love for your country and a set of values that even you cannot truly define in terms of reality, then you are embracing ignorance as to why such events occur. You are enjoying how superior the events make you feel, especially when you are detached from them both culturally and in terms of distance.

Understanding is not condoning, and listening to grievances and acting to make the world more fair and beautiful is not weak.

edit: Oh, I forgot to mention that 3 districts have decided that any rioters that have been arrested that live in public housing will be put on the street. Look's like the UK is trying to out America, America...lolololz :(
 
[quote name='dohdough']They were Very bad. Worse than the one in the UK. It was so bad that the US Army was called in.[/QUOTE]
Well if this continues much longer I could see the army being called in. London police don't seem capable of really stopping this.
 
More stuff to read:

http://web.archive.org/web/20070910111005/http://adbusters.org/the_magazine/71.php?id=274

[quote name='Tony Evans, Football Editor of UK paper The Times']
First off, I don’t know what’s best. But this is what I do know. Unlike most of you, I’ve fought with police, I’ve thrown missiles at them. I’ve kicked in shop windows and looted stuff. I was born into an area that people told me was full of ‘the dregs of society’. I’ve been young, poor and angry. I’ve felt there was no opportunity in life and all that stretched in front was a bleak, penniless future. And I know that most people with happy, fulfilled lives don’t go on rampages of violence. I also know that successive Governments have put the pursuit of wealth ahead of maintaining a sense of community. When you’ve been told there’s no society, why would you care about other people? When you see the bankers nearly destroy capitalism and still get their bonuses, what do you think of personal responsibility? The key is making people believe they have opportunities in life, not opportunities to loot. And maybe the money spent intervening in a civil war in Libya would be better spent on schools.

I could go on, but most of you have made up your minds. You get the society you create. Enjoy it
source: https://twitter.com/#!/TonyEvansTimes[/quote]
And a video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zmo8DG1gno4&feature=player_embedded
 
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Externality costs can be a real bitch. Given any particular policy, you can generally place it somewhere on an imaginary spectrum where one extreme is labeled "It is not society's place to take care of ____, where ___ = any number of things like kids, the poor, the sick, &c. That is to say "their own". The other end of the spectrum is the opposite thing. That is to say, it is in fact society's job to take care of their own.

From a purely economic perspective, one of these styles is going to cost more. With the welfare state, you're going to get some measure of fraud, for example. In the other, you pack the judicial and prison systems, paying room, board and health care for people as they resort to crime. Crime is higher.

This is a different way of asking, is prevention worth it. Is preventative health care worth it when weighed against the cost of serious illnesses caught early or prevented entirely? Are the upfront costs of regulation worth it compared to waiting for some ill to manifest itself?

The spectrum I originally posited now looks like more of a false choice. Society has no choice but to take care of their own, its only a matter of how efficient/inefficient one wants to go about doing this. Do we want the welfare state or the prison state?
 
that's all links to porn, but at least it's high quality ukranian porn...

There's some interesting history on the guy in the 1st video. He certainly wasn't picked at random off the street for the interview.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKhaT-pXHHc
This is about social injustice!

Look, it starts off as that with maybe 500-2,000 people. Now it's not about that. Now it's about 4G bitches!

When you diminish the social inspiriation for the original riots, you end up with diminished respect for the original purpose. Nobody cares about the cause right now. They see their neighborhood get torn apart and start wondering how much will be covered by insurance and how screwed they're going to be at the end of it all.

RE: The 1m18s video of the kid on the bike getting the stick to the head
Plenty of context there. Apparently the riot police are out to beat kids on bikes in alleyways? Or maybe since the helicopter was following them with the spotlight there was reason to suspect that they were followed for a reason? Nah, that can't be. Maybe they committed acts of violence against another civilian or police officer? Definitely not. This is clear evidence of simple police brutality that was random and without reason, especially since the camera seemed to be rolling before anything happened.
 
[quote name='nasum']that's all links to porn, but at least it's high quality ukranian porn...

There's some interesting history on the guy in the 1st video. He certainly wasn't picked at random off the street for the interview.[/quote]
No he wasn't and that doesn't diminish the content of what he says, in matter of fact, he should be given more credence because of who he is and his ability to articulate it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKhaT-pXHHc
This is about social injustice!

Look, it starts off as that with maybe 500-2,000 people. Now it's not about that. Now it's about 4G bitches!

When you diminish the social inspiriation for the original riots, you end up with diminished respect for the original purpose. Nobody cares about the cause right now. They see their neighborhood get torn apart and start wondering how much will be covered by insurance and how screwed they're going to be at the end of it all.
The only ones doing the diminishing are the powers that be by just saying its a bunch of chavs on the dole wrecking shit without the underlying understanding of why. Saying that they're just criminals acting like criminals is a non-answer that should get you laughed out of your elected office.

I've posted a bunch of articles about the psychology of a riot that address your arguments. Obviously, you didn't read them.

Here's another quote
[quote name='duckmonster']
It comes back to the whole point of ideology vs material conditions. A kid who wants to smash poo poo haphazard because he wants poo poo the rich people have, and a marxist who wants to charge the cops because he's tired of the appropriation of wealth from the working class are basically thinking the same thing and reacting to the same essential injustice. The kid just doesn't know what it means, he just knows he hates it. The kid however is still displaying class conciousness, however poorly articulated or theorized it is.

In fact odds are the marxist academics got a good chance of actually being from some vaguelly bourgie background and in a sense probably has a more distorted class conciousness (If he was honest he'd be siding with the rulers, in line with his class interests) than the rioting kid who knows full loving well that cops,rich cunts and the government are the enemy because cops bash him, rich cunts fire him and the government fucks him and his community over and just wants to break some poo poo to do something, anything about it. He's not ideological, his concerns are rooted in very material conditions, even if he can't spell it out in correct marxoteen language.


source: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3357110&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=438[/quote]


RE: The 1m18s video of the kid on the bike getting the stick to the head
Plenty of context there. Apparently the riot police are out to beat kids on bikes in alleyways? Or maybe since the helicopter was following them with the spotlight there was reason to suspect that they were followed for a reason? Nah, that can't be. Maybe they committed acts of violence against another civilian or police officer? Definitely not. This is clear evidence of simple police brutality that was random and without reason, especially since the camera seemed to be rolling before anything happened.
How observant of you to completely miss the kid getting off the bike first and then getting beaten a split second after. I'm sure you also noticed the cop kicking him in the head after the beating. Are you somehow suggesting that the police should act as judge, jury, and executioner on the streets, cause that's what it sounds like. There's a reason why law enforcement is taught to evaluate threat levels and appropriate levels of response so shit like pulling out your sidearm and shooting a guy facedown on the ground while restrained doesn't happen in the heat of the moment.
 
I have to say that, destroying shops in your own neighborhood makes no sense. I mean I understand being pissed at the powers that be, but the owner of some little neighborhood shop is not the enemy. I know riots are, by definition, usually chaotic, but damn people, stop and think for just a second.
 
[quote name='dohdough']No he wasn't and that doesn't diminish the content of what he says, in matter of fact, he should be given more credence because of who he is and his ability to articulate it.[/quote]
He is a rather radical activist and not a very nice person given his treatment of his kids.


The only ones doing the diminishing are the powers that be by just saying its a bunch of chavs on the dole wrecking shit without the underlying understanding of why. Saying that they're just criminals acting like criminals is a non-answer that should get you laughed out of your elected office.
I've posted a bunch of articles about the psychology of a riot that address your arguments. Obviously, you didn't read them.
An interesting theory, but you've ignored what I said because you apparently just wanted to or something. Perhaps it gives you a chance to dust off that good ol' soapbox of yours?
What I said is that the looting of a retail store that sells gadgets is not conducive to the argument/situation/social structure etc... When you have the smaller group at the beginning, maybe yes, they're there for the "purpose" for lack of a better definition. Watch that video again. When the alarm goes off it's like the zombie swarm in Left 4 Dead. They just come outta nowhere and bum rush the store.

A couple isn't a bunch.


How observant of you to completely miss the kid getting off the bike first and then getting beaten a split second after. I'm sure you also noticed the cop kicking him in the head after the beating. Are you somehow suggesting that the police should act as judge, jury, and executioner on the streets, cause that's what it sounds like. There's a reason why law enforcement is taught to evaluate threat levels and appropriate levels of response so shit like pulling out your sidearm and shooting a guy facedown on the ground while restrained doesn't happen in the heat of the moment.

And for you to miss the other kid on the bike hauling ass in the upper left within the first 5-10 seconds.

While I contend that law enforcement needs to be held to the highest standard, you're suggesting that hundreds if not thousands of people going apeshit in the city is somehow ok because it's aimed against society. You use psychology to justify idiotic actions. However, you assume that there's no stress level at all for law enforcement and that they're just out busting heads on a Tuesday night for something to do. This is your problem at all times. You never see both sides of the issue, just the one that gives you a better chance to point fingers at authority.
Should the guy have beaten the kid like that? Hell no. Is it justified? Hell no. Was the kid doing something wrong and garnered the attention of the cops? Hell yes. You'll notice that NOBODY else in the video did anything to help anyone. Blame them, not the cop who lost his cool amidst a really crazy situation (though it looks pretty calm where they are) and don't for a second think that it was just some random incident. Something led to that happening that we didn't see. No matter how inappropriate the reaction.
 
[quote name='nasum']He is a rather radical activist and not a very nice person given his treatment of his kids.[/QUOTE]
Radical how? Because he was part of the British Black Panthers and Black Panthers are scary because they're Black? It's not like their communities were being oppressed or anything and just decided to act all savage-like cause they were lazy and poor because they're poor and hence, lazy. Are you trying to make the literally crazy assertion that there isn't racism in Europe?

And what about his kids? He had a lot of them? So what.

The fact that he's able to articulate the problems within the system while backing it up with solid facts is EXACTLY why he should be listened to.

An interesting theory, but you've ignored what I said because you apparently just wanted to or something. Perhaps it gives you a chance to dust off that good ol' soapbox of yours?
What I said is that the looting of a retail store that sells gadgets is not conducive to the argument/situation/social structure etc... When you have the smaller group at the beginning, maybe yes, they're there for the "purpose" for lack of a better definition. Watch that video again. When the alarm goes off it's like the zombie swarm in Left 4 Dead. They just come outta nowhere and bum rush the store.

A couple isn't a bunch.
What did I ignore? I specifically addressed it with posting articles and references to actual law enforcement studies about how riots operate and some insight on the drive behind these acts of looting as a symptom of a deeper reason beyond just wanting a new goddamn cellphone. I didn't ignore shit because I posted those readings before you even posted your less than superficial reading of what's going on. You're the one ignoring everything except your misplaced trust on your ignorant "gut-feelings."

And for you to miss the other kid on the bike hauling ass in the upper left within the first 5-10 seconds.
Were they beaten on camera? The straggler was body-checked off the bike. So what.

While I contend that law enforcement needs to be held to the highest standard, you're suggesting that hundreds if not thousands of people going apeshit in the city is somehow ok because it's aimed against society.
When did I say or even hint that it was "ok?" I only assert that there's a reason for the rioting and minimalizing the environment that causes theses situations to erupt by calling them all feral children and lazy because they're on the dole will only ensure that these things will happen again.

You use psychology to justify idiotic actions.
Hurrr...science is STOOPID! :roll:

I'm not justifying anything. I'm just providing an explanation and not putting a judgment call on it. Am I saying that they should burn the entire country down because they've been oppressed?? If anything, you're the one justifying the beating of that kid that was already caught and that the cops over there should just beat and waterhose whoever they deem a "threat" without even understanding the underlying problems that creates these issues in the first place...again.

However, you assume that there's no stress level at all for law enforcement and that they're just out busting heads on a Tuesday night for something to do. This is your problem at all times. You never see both sides of the issue, just the one that gives you a better chance to point fingers at authority.
When the hell did I say that they don't experience any stress? I even specifically said that they go through a lot of training to try and work through it. In matter of fact, I'm very well versed in the effects of being in law enforcement on how there are high rates of alcholism, divorce, depression, domestic violence, and plain old violence and antipathy to others. Or maybe you're the one that shouldn't be justifying how "the authority" has a penchant to abuse that unequal level of power to begin with! Does a kid deserve physical abuse when acting like brat when the parent cleary is in a position of power to NOT beat the freaking kid?

Should the guy have beaten the kid like that? Hell no. Is it justified? Hell no. Was the kid doing something wrong and garnered the attention of the cops? Hell yes. You'll notice that NOBODY else in the video did anything to help anyone. Blame them, not the cop who lost his cool amidst a really crazy situation (though it looks pretty calm where they are) and don't for a second think that it was just some random incident. Something led to that happening that we didn't see. No matter how inappropriate the reaction.
So you're saying that the kid deserved the beating. Nothing sociopathic to see here folks!

I never said it was a random incident and if those cops knew they were on camera, you'd bet they wouldn't have beat them in plain view. Hell, I'd be willing to bet that many more beatings were dished out that were never caught on camera. And in case you forgot how to count, there were two cops beating that kid with batons.

I never said or even implied that the kid didn't do anything as that is completely IRRELEVANT because he DIDN'T DESERVE A BEATING.

Congrats on supporting facism!
 
[quote name='dohdough']So you're saying that the kid deserved the beating. Nothing sociopathic to see here folks!

I never said or even implied that the kid didn't do anything as that is completely IRRELEVANT because he DIDN'T DESERVE A BEATING.

Congrats on supporting facism![/QUOTE]

These are my words:

Should the guy have beaten the kid like that? Hell no. Is it justified? Hell no. Was the kid doing something wrong and garnered the attention of the cops? Hell yes.

So, by saying the beating shouldn't have happened I'm saying it should have? By saying it isn't justified I'm saying it is justified? By saying that the kid isn't some random innocent victim I'm saying that he deserved it?

To quote Samuel L. Jackson, "English motherfucker, do you speak it?"

So with this giant mind and penchant for research you so widely pronounce yourself to have, you immediately jump to "hurrr cop be evil cause he hit kid" as opposed to using your just cited reference of cop psychology to realize that it's an incredibly fucked up situation that isn't good for anyone.

I know you aren't stupid, please quit acting like you are.
 
[quote name='nasum']it's an incredibly fucked up situation that isn't good for anyone.[/QUOTE]

Yeah. These riots are going to set everything back.

After these riots, areas of the city are going to be burnt out for years because noone will want to reinvest. All the riots have done is quash any sympathy that the middle class may have had for the poor, especially after their shops and offices were looted or burnt to a crisp. There are no winners here, there are no silver linings.
 
[quote name='nasum']These are my words:



So, by saying the beating shouldn't have happened I'm saying it should have? By saying it isn't justified I'm saying it is justified? By saying that the kid isn't some random innocent victim I'm saying that he deserved it?

To quote Samuel L. Jackson, "English motherfucker, do you speak it?"

So with this giant mind and penchant for research you so widely pronounce yourself to have, you immediately jump to "hurrr cop be evil cause he hit kid" as opposed to using your just cited reference of cop psychology to realize that it's an incredibly fucked up situation that isn't good for anyone.

I know you aren't stupid, please quit acting like you are.[/QUOTE]
So the bystanders should have intervened in witnessing several cops chase down and beat more than one person with batons and riot shields instead? Those are the people to blame and not the cops doing the beating? Cause that's the very next line in your quote.

It doesn't matter how you try to cut it because it still all leads to those with power, the cops, abusing their power that could just as easily use that power on anyone in the immediate area regardless of the intent to purposely find someone to beat or any act of criminality. You keep bringing it back to individual actions and I'm talking about how this is emblematic of a systemic problem.

Yes, it's fucked up and that's why we need to fucking examine why things like this happen in the first place.

It doesn't matter that these kids in particular were victims of police brutality; what matters is that anyone is a victim of police brutality as committing a crime isn't always a reason to be the target of it.

[quote name='camoor']Yeah. These riots are going to set everything back.

After these riots, areas of the city are going to be burnt out for years because noone will want to reinvest. All the riots have done is quash any sympathy that the middle class may have had for the poor, especially after their shops and offices were looted or burnt to a crisp. There are no winners here, there are no silver linings.[/QUOTE]
The middleclass was never there to begin with. These are the UK's version of the projects. Rather than look at why these things happened on a systemic level, everyone will just say that these poor lazy motherfuckers should just bootstrap their way out of the ghetto just like they say over in the US. No one gives a shit about these people and are just as content to let them rot.

Their solution: Kick already poor people out into the streets if they were arrested for any riot related activities. There is actually a state-sponsored petition for this that requires 100k signatures. Last time I checked a couple hours ago, they were past 96k in less than 12 hours. How fucked is that.

So somehow kicking already poor people into the streets will alleviate the problem? LOLZ

Despite my tone, I'm not directing any of it at you, but this is some seriously bassackwards reasoning by the government.
 
[quote name='dohdough']Yes, it's fucked up and that's why we need to fucking examine why things like this happen in the first place.

It doesn't matter that these kids in particular were victims of police brutality; what matters is that anyone is a victim of police brutality as committing a crime isn't always a reason to be the target of it.


The middleclass was never there to begin with. These are the UK's version of the projects. Rather than look at why these things happened on a systemic level, everyone will just say that these poor lazy motherfuckers should just bootstrap their way out of the ghetto just like they say over in the US. No one gives a shit about these people and are just as content to let them rot.

Their solution: Kick already poor people out into the streets if they were arrested for any riot related activities. There is actually a state-sponsored petition for this that requires 100k signatures. Last time I checked a couple hours ago, they were past 96k in less than 12 hours. How fucked is that.

So somehow kicking already poor people into the streets will alleviate the problem? LOLZ

Despite my tone, I'm not directing any of it at you, but this is some seriously bassackwards reasoning by the government.[/QUOTE]

It's not reasoning, it's a visceral reaction to looting and rioting. And I guarantee that the kids don't know how badly they are fucking themselves and their future over right now. I live in DC, I know. The people who will have the last laugh are the rich who come in 20 years from now to gentrify the burnt-out areas of London.
 
[quote name='camoor']It's not reasoning, it's a visceral reaction to looting and rioting. And I guarantee that the kids don't know how badly they are fucking themselves and their future over right now. I live in DC, I know. The people who will have the last laugh are the rich who come in 20 years from now to gentrify the burnt-out areas of London.[/QUOTE]
Honestly, their future never mattered to begin with. Class mobility in the UK is almost as bad as it is over here. The only thing saving them for now, is a stronger social safety net. And I do mean for now because the UK has also been making austerity cuts. The Tories(their Republicans) are in charge, the Lib-Dems are colluding, and Labor has turned into a shadow of itself that's closer to our own Democrats. They're as fucked as we are.

You might be right about the gentrification, but until the systemic problems are addressed, well, it'll only be a matter of time until riots like these happen again. Maybe next time, it'll be more violent, but like I said, no one really gives a shit about fixing the kleptocracy.
 
What is the UK version of the national guard? Roll in the tanks and guys with machine guns. This shit would end in a day. You won't really even have to kill anyone just use rubber bullets and batons. Deport anyone that wasn't born there that is participating.
 
[quote name='Blaster man']What is the UK version of the national guard? Roll in the tanks and guys with machine guns. This shit would end in a day. You won't really even have to kill anyone just use rubber bullets and batons. Deport anyone that wasn't born there that is participating.[/QUOTE]
You can still be killed by rubber bullets and batons buddy.
 
[quote name='Dkellar']http://www.cnn.com/2011/TECH/social.media/08/11/london.riots.social.media/index.html

Seems like the PM wants to limit social networks. I do not believe it would help much in terms of preventing people from organizing for malicious activities, but I see them easily limiting the peoples ability to show the world what really is going on during such events.[/QUOTE]

Not when most of them are using blackberry messaging (i.e., not social networks) to discuss and plan.
 
[quote name='dohdough']Honestly, their future never mattered to begin with. Class mobility in the UK is almost as bad as it is over here. The only thing saving them for now, is a stronger social safety net. And I do mean for now because the UK has also been making austerity cuts. The Tories(their Republicans) are in charge, the Lib-Dems are colluding, and Labor has turned into a shadow of itself that's closer to our own Democrats. They're as fucked as we are.

You might be right about the gentrification, but until the systemic problems are addressed, well, it'll only be a matter of time until riots like these happen again. Maybe next time, it'll be more violent, but like I said, no one really gives a shit about fixing the kleptocracy.[/QUOTE]

Yeah I guess I figure globalization means that things will get a little better for third-world nations and alot worse for industrialized nations. Not sure if anything can be done, but I guess we agree that the future is not all rosy. I'm talking about the middle class and poor, the rich always do fine of course.
 
[quote name='camoor']Yeah I guess I figure globalization means that things will get a little better for third-world nations and alot worse for industrialized nations. Not sure if anything can be done, but I guess we agree that the future is not all rosy. I'm talking about the middle class and poor, the rich always do fine of course.[/QUOTE]
Well, let's not forget the wealthy oligarchs in those developing nations either. The US has a long history of setting up dictatorships and banana republics.;)

But yeah, for those that are already developed, our days are numbered.
 
As fucked up as everything thing is what will come out of rioting? Burning down a city and fighting won't help any cause.
 
[quote name='Lyricsborn']As fucked up as everything thing is what will come out of rioting? Burning down a city and fighting won't help any cause.[/QUOTE]
History has shown us that if people fight hard enough and burn down the right cities, you can completely reform a country.

Like I said, nothing will change because no one really gives a shit about those areas/people. If people really cared about making sure people aren't rioting, then we wouldn't have the sentiment like you and many others share that rioting is unproductive. Even if you ignore the message, it's still there.

mykevermin makes the point that at least now, some people are listening.
 
[quote name='dohdough']History has shown us that if people fight hard enough and burn down the right cities, you can completely reform a country.[/QUOTE]

IMHO that's not what we have here. Nothings getting solved by this random violence.
 
I don't get what kind of reform people are looking for here? Are they pissed that their government, as well as governments across Europe and in other parts of the world are slowly coming to the realization that running a welfare state is not a financially stable proposition in the long term? Pissed that there aren't more jobs or that the economy isn't recovering fast enough? People need to wake up and face the reality that we aren't in a temporary global recession or economic downturn, this is a permanent change in the global economy, and is the result of decades of reckless unchecked spending by governments all across the globe. You want job stability in your future? Move to China, and start brushing up on your clicking sounds because at the rate China is progressing, all the jobs will be leaving there and moving to Africa in the next 20 years.

Also this:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...gma-spawned-generation-brutalised-youths.html

I know all you liberals here (which is pretty much everyone) will be butthurt reading this, but there's plenty of truth in there.
 
[quote name='camoor']IMHO that's not what we have here. Nothings getting solved by this random violence.[/QUOTE]
I agree that this isn't what we have here, but there's nothing random about it. This is addressed in a couple quotes/articles I posted.

[quote name='spmahn']I don't get what kind of reform people are looking for here? Are they pissed that their government, as well as governments across Europe and in other parts of the world are slowly coming to the realization that running a welfare state is not a financially stable proposition in the long term? Pissed that there aren't more jobs or that the economy isn't recovering fast enough? People need to wake up and face the reality that we aren't in a temporary global recession or economic downturn, this is a permanent change in the global economy, and is the result of decades of reckless unchecked spending by governments all across the globe. You want job stability in your future? Move to China, and start brushing up on your clicking sounds because at the rate China is progressing, all the jobs will be leaving there and moving to Africa in the next 20 years.[/QUOTE]
You're so far off base that I don't know wtf.
 
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[quote name='mykevermin']Not when most of them are using blackberry messaging (i.e., not social networks) to discuss and plan.[/QUOTE]

Well, the article states that the PM wants to limit the blackberry messaging system too.
 
[quote name='camoor']IMHO that's not what we have here. Nothings getting solved by this random violence.[/QUOTE]

You are correct.

Rioting never achieved anything. If these people were legitimate descenters they would form a revolution AGAINST the powers that be, not their neighbors.

Rioting is just random street trash, not involved in politics, that want to destroy everything they don't want to steal.
 
[quote name='spmahn']
Also this:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...gma-spawned-generation-brutalised-youths.html[/QUOTE]

Hard to believe what kids get away with in school these days. And the teachers and principals can do nothing but give them a demerit mark?? Bring back corporal punishment in schools. I got my ass paddled in fifth grade and never acted up in school again. Sometimes all it takes is some discipline from an authority figure to get a kid back on track.
 
[quote name='Dkellar']Well, the article states that the PM wants to limit the blackberry messaging system too.[/QUOTE]

Ouch; you caught me just skimming the article. Sorry.

[quote name='spmahn']I don't get what kind of reform people are looking for here? Are they pissed that their government, as well as governments across Europe and in other parts of the world are slowly coming to the realization that running a welfare state is not a financially stable proposition in the long term? Pissed that there aren't more jobs or that the economy isn't recovering fast enough? People need to wake up and face the reality that we aren't in a temporary global recession or economic downturn, this is a permanent change in the global economy, and is the result of decades of reckless unchecked spending by governments all across the globe. You want job stability in your future? Move to China, and start brushing up on your clicking sounds because at the rate China is progressing, all the jobs will be leaving there and moving to Africa in the next 20 years.

Also this:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...gma-spawned-generation-brutalised-youths.html

I know all you liberals here (which is pretty much everyone) will be butthurt reading this, but there's plenty of truth in there.[/QUOTE]

You're just like rapid-fire of GOP talking points, taking for granted that it's a logical flow of ideas from one point to the next, rooted in gut feeling and zero logic. The EU countries that are fucked? They focused on austerity plans which helped contribute to the problem. The idea that this is all "natural" is preposterous and just teeming with the anti-empirical blind faith attitude of free marketers (who are de facto ideological zealots, given that you never consider the market wrong).

The Daily Mail? Op-ed? Brush up on your UK knowledge, mate.

"Hey, I found this letter to the editor in the Weekly World News about the Casey Anthony trial, I think you should read it!"

That's what you just did, friend.

[quote name='thrustbucket']Rioting is just random street trash, not involved in politics, that want to destroy everything they don't want to steal.[/QUOTE]

thrustbucket - always in for the opinion, never in for the effort. let's use our blind allegiance to one political perspective to save us the time of actually finding out what the cause of the rioting is.

it's funny that you always chime in, but you constantly show that you've no idea what you're talking about, and that you've not done a thing to change that (i.e., become informed). why is it funny? because you're so into personal responsibility and bootstraps and meritocracy - yet you free ride your way through every discussion on these boards, not bothering to offer anything up by bland, vague assertions about the way things are (with zero data).

"Bah, they're just street trash" = zero effort. Ron Paul would be ashamed.
 
I disagree; they tend to get what we call 'radical flank effects'. Not necessarily what the actual rioters want, but indeed some degree of desired change in their direction.

It's akin to getting $5 allowance because you asked for $10. Though based on my personal experience growing up, rioting in the house does not have a positive influence on actually getting said allowance. ;)
 
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