Mecca's Imam denounces militant Islam during the Hajj

[alonzomourning23]

A top Saudi cleric has urged Muslims to shun militant forms of Islam, as pilgrims carried out one of the final rituals of the Hajj.
Militants were using "misguided" interpretations to justify violence, Mecca's Imam Abdul Rahman Sudeis said.

About 2.5 million pilgrims hurled stones at pillars in Mina, meant to symbolise the rejection of Satan.

They were able to take advantage of improved facilities brought in to reduce risks of a stampede.

"Because Muslims strayed from moderation, we are now suffering this dangerous phenomenon of branding people infidels and inciting Muslims to rise against their leaders," said Sheikh Abdul Rahman.

His sermon at the Grand Mosque was dedicated to those Muslims performing the Hajj pilgrimage, many of whom were present.

Saudi Arabia has been at the forefront of a global campaign of violence waged by Islamic extremists inspired by al-Qaeda, with scores of deaths in a string of attacks since May 2003.

Pilgrims were able to begin the stoning ceremony early after a special fatwa, or religious edict, was issued to prevent a human crush along the walkways past the pillars.

Thousands started arriving after midnight, rather than after dawn prayers, as used to be the case.

"We were worried about the crowds and we had heard some real horror stories, so we feel much better," said one early arrival, Ahmed Sodikin, from Bandung, Indonesia.

Sudanese pilgrim Jamal Adel praised the Saudi authorities for modifying the traditional rules.

"I'm sure God will accept this. It's in the best interest of all."

Last year, 251 pilgrims were trampled to death at Mina.

Improved facilities

New footbridges with emergency exits have been built since last year and three new pillars have been erected that are wider and taller than ones used previously, so more pilgrims could pelt rocks at the same time.

About 10,000 police patrolled the area to ensure the smooth flow of the ritual.

The stoning ceremony recalls the Prophet Abraham's throwing stones at Satan who had tried to dissuade him from sacrificing his son Ishmael, according to Islamic tradition.

The Hajj reached its zenith on Wednesday with pilgrims converging on Mount Arafat for an afternoon of prayer and contemplation of God.

Thursday is celebrated around the Muslim world as Eid al-Adha, the most important religious holiday of the year. Pilgrims will resume the stoning ceremony on Friday and Saturday.

Every able-bodied adult Muslim who can afford to make the trip is obliged to perform the Hajj, one of the five pillars of Islam, once in their lives.

link

Just one more instance of muslims denouncing terrorism. Not that anyone will pay any attention though, despite countless condemnations of terrorism (most more blunt than this) no one pays attention. They just keep falsely claiming muslims never denounce terrorism. It's really sad though that people expect all members of a religion to constantly denounce violence they didn't cause.

 

[bmulligan]

Well, it's about time.

Don't get ahead of yourself, there, alonzomourning. Very few people here confuse millitant Islam with the muslim religion as a whole. It's just extremely suspect when we don't hear things like this being said every day, and we don't. When there is an overt attempt to take over your religion by it's millitant wings, you'd think there'd be much more outcry on a daily basis. Yes, there've been condemnations, but they aren't usually blunt, they're usually careful.

 

[Drocket]

[quote name='bmulligan']It's just extremely suspect when we don't hear things like this being said every day, and we don't.[/quote]
Maybe because its not actually news? When something happens 10,000 times per day in mosques around the world, its tends not exactly be headline news.

 

[elprincipe]

Not to rain on you guys' parade, but it wasn't really as much of a denunciation of terrorism as it was the Saudi government wanting to squelch opposition. Also, here's a little quote that you didn't include in the original post from the same guy:

However, al-Sheikh also warned against campaigns launched by the outside world against Muslims. He said there are "military campaigns, thought campaigns, economic campaigns, and media campaigns."

http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2005/1/707263E5-CDD7-4A7A-85DD-8E5A849E9744.html

Yikes.

 

[alonzomourning23]

[quote name='bmulligan']Well, it's about time.

Don't get ahead of yourself, there, alonzomourning. Very few people here confuse millitant Islam with the muslim religion as a whole. It's just extremely suspect when we don't hear things like this being said every day, and we don't. When there is an overt attempt to take over your religion by it's millitant wings, you'd think there'd be much more outcry on a daily basis. Yes, there've been condemnations, but they aren't usually blunt, they're usually careful.[/quote]

It's amazing what google, and the bbc search engine can find:
link
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If these aren't enough examples of muslims explicitly denouncing terrorism, then I will gladly get more.

 

[bmulligan]

A nice laundry list of some articles. Some of which are re-writes of identical stories. It's a nice list, and I don't doubt the resolve of the majority of the muslim communities in their stance against terrorism. However, the list is short and focuses on mostly american and brittish groups and their statements. You should also take the time to actually READ some of them, as they do not all subscribe to your assertion :

KUALA LUMPUR DECLARATION ON INTERNATIONAL TERRORISM

ADOPTED AT THE EXTRAORDINARY SESSION OF THE ISLAMIC CONFERENCE OF FOREIGN MINISTERS ON TERRORISM

1-3- APRIL 2002
...
10. We reject any attempt to link terrorism to the struggle of the Palestinian people in the exercise of their inalienable right to establish their independent state with Al-Quds Al-Sharif as its capital;

11. We reject any attempt to associate Islamic states or Palestinian and Lebanese resistance with terrorism, which constitutes an impediment to the global struggle against terrorism;

12. We condemn Israel for its escalating military campaign against the Palestinian people, including the daily brutalization and humiliation of its civilians, resulting in mounting casualties, strangulation of the Palestinian economy, systematic and indiscriminate destruction of houses and residential facilities as well as infrastructure, institutions and structures of the Palestinian National Authority;

13. We emphasize the importance of addressing the root causes of international terrorism, convinced that the war against terrorism will not succeed if the environment that breeds terrorism, including foreign occupation, injustice and exclusion, is allowed to thrive;

14. We reaffirm our commitment to international action in combating international terrorism undertaken in conformity with the principles of the Charter of United Nations, including the principles of non-intervention in internal affairs and respect for sovereignty and territorial integrity, as well as international law and relevant international conventions and instruments;

15. We reject any unilateral action taken against any Islamic country under the pretext of combating international terrorism, as this will undermine global cooperation against terrorism;

...We will, at all relevant multilateral fora, maintain a united front in upholding the principled position on the legitimacy of the struggle of peoples under colonial or alien domination and foreign occupation for national liberation and self-determination...

Here's another one you apparantly didn't read written by a muslim criticizing the lack of condemnation:

It baffles the mind to watch American Muslim leaders waffle over condemning Bin Laden as a terrorist who is misappropriating Islamic ideals and incriminating Islam in his campaign of terror. This man has undermined decades of hard work by these very same leaders to make Islam more acceptable in America. The shadow of Bin Laden now looms large on the decades of efforts by these same leaders at building bridges with other faith-based communities. The issue of condemnation stands clearly between American Muslims and the American government. Rather than perceiving American Muslims as a national asset and source for diplomatic expertise that can be deployed in defense of American interests, the establishment sees American Muslims as potential suspects, because they are not confident about where Muslim sympathies lie.

And I never said that groups aren't dennouncing terrorism, you seem to be trying to pick a fight when there is no disagreement. I'll stand by my statement that we don't hear enough of it. Obviously if there is still an undercurrent of hatred toward the muslim communities in america, then they need to be more vociferoius on the subject to make their position more clear and more widely known.

The articles show many muslims in agreement condemning terrorist acts. However, most of these groups are in countries that are already enjoying the freedoms protected by our way of government. Since there are so many muslims on the other side of the world who are NOT granted this opportunity without fear of getting their heads chopped off, one questions why YOU are not more supportive of our efforts to allow them to have this freedom.

 

[alonzomourning23]

Granted I didn't read them all, a few I read, a few I had read earlier and the others I skimmed through quickly. They all appeared different, and when I'm posting 22 articles in a short time (there were plenty more, I ignored more articles than I posted) and you call out two of them, that's not bad. Though the first one you mentioned only 10 and 11 are questionable as far as I'm concerned, in the sense of whether they mean the palestinian fight is not a terrorist fight (which it isn't), or that the palestinian cause never commits terrorism (which some palestinians obviously do). I also fail to see how a list of 22 is short, if I was writing a book you'd have a point, but I've never seen anyone post that many links on one subject on this board before. The second one also clearly ignored the condemnations by u.s. muslims, of which you complained I posted too many.

Basically, the problem I had with your post was the "About time", suggesting that there is not enough condemnation, and that you said they were not explicit. My argument was there are many condemnations, not that condemnations simply exist. We don't hear enough, that's true, but it's not due to lack of condemnation. The problem is our media not reporting it, as shown by the fact that I did not find a single article from foxnews, cnn, msnbc, abc etc., not even one I ignored. Honestly, sometimes I find there to be too much condemnation, people shouldn't be expected to repeatedly condemn actions that they had no part in and did not support, such as muslims are expected to do. We don't expect that of any other group. Though, as far as supporting military interventions, when the majority of a nation supports an outside force invading and occupying them, then I'll support it. I support military intervention in darfur, I supported intervention in liberia, because the people of those nations (or province, as in the case of darfur) supported it. Iraqi's, for example, did not. The end result isn't all that matters, how you get there is just as important.

Obviously if there is still an undercurrent of hatred toward the muslim communities in america, then they need to be more vociferoius on the subject to make their position more clear and more widely known.

If it is there job to continously denounce and get rid of the extremists of their own groups, then it is our job to continously denounce and get rid of the bigots and extremists in ours. That's only fair, we shouldn't expect more of them than we expect of ourselves. It's not their job to fight our bigotry, as you suggested, it's ours.

 

[bmulligan]

I'm in agreement with you. It's pretty rare that I turn on a national news program, or any news program for that metter, and find an islamic spokesperson reiterating their distain for millitant islam. Very rarely you'll hear it on local news, more often on local news talk radio or NPR than anywhere else. If we want to discuss responsibility, then I think the news media in general has an obligation to distinguish the differences between these radical gruops and the average, peace loving people that most muslims are. After all, the networks are getting the most milage from this war on terror, they owe it to everyone to help curtail solcial ills that may result from talking about the murdering islamists every other minute.

But I also depart from your opinion that they shouldn't have to dennounce terrorist actions all the time. They should, and they should do more. They should hammer the point every day, if necessary, to show that they are just as much a part of the american comminuty as any other group, therby distinguishing themselfves from the radicals and helping to eliminate the prejudice other groups have of them.

And we DO demand persistence from other groups in similar situations. Everytime Israel makes a dumb mistake, we expect them to issue some sort of apology on behalf of jews, same with the Palestinian authority. We pressure individuals to continuously apologize for a flippant or offhand comment picked up and hackneyed by the media.

Global terrorism being so closely associated with Islam as a whole requires a daily commitment by contrary groups to disassociate themselves with the bad guys. I know it sucks to live in that kind of world, but the truth is undeniable. Just as an example, if I were to mention Right-To-Lifer's, don't you almost immediately think of abortion doctor killings? I do.

 

[Trancendental]

[quote name='bmulligan']Just as an example, if I were to mention Right-To-Lifer's, don't you almost immediately think of abortion doctor killings? I do.[/quote]

Actually I think of that wide-eyed soft-spoken girl in the presidential election who asked Kerry about his stance on abortion.

For me, she really crystalizes the image of the mouth-breathing, brainwashed, corn-fed midwestern ignoramus that decided the outcome of this election.

 

[alonzomourning23]

[quote name='bmulligan']
But I also depart from your opinion that they shouldn't have to dennounce terrorist actions all the time. They should, and they should do more. They should hammer the point every day, if necessary, to show that they are just as much a part of the american comminuty as any other group, therby distinguishing themselfves from the radicals and helping to eliminate the prejudice other groups have of them.

And we DO demand persistence from other groups in similar situations. Everytime Israel makes a dumb mistake, we expect them to issue some sort of apology on behalf of jews, same with the Palestinian authority. We pressure individuals to continuously apologize for a flippant or offhand comment picked up and hackneyed by the media. [/quote]

That would be a good example if every time israel committed a crime (they do claim to represent the jewish people) we then expected every rabbi to denounce it, but we don't do that. If bin laden commits a crime, a person far more radical and out of the mainstream than Israel will ever be, we expect every muslim leader to denounce it. We expect israel to apologize because they are the ones who commited the crime, either by government orders or by a soldier, but not rabbi's or individual jews. The muslim family down the street did not commit any crime, yet you still expect them to denounce al qaeda crimes. The jewish family down the street commited no crime, and, rightly, they are not expected to denounce every israeli crime. And when a christian abortion extremist calls for the murder of doctors at an abortion clinic, something I have witnessed myself in public outside an abortion clinic, you don't expect every christian to denounce or apologize for his comments.

Global terrorism being so closely associated with Islam as a whole requires a daily commitment by contrary groups to disassociate themselves with the bad guys. I know it sucks to live in that kind of world, but the truth is undeniable. Just as an example, if I were to mention Right-To-Lifer's, don't you almost immediately think of abortion doctor killings? I do.

Israel so closely aligns itself with judaism, but every time I see a jewish person I don't think of sabra and shatila, everytime I see a german I don't think of the nazi's. When I see a pro-life protest I think of abortion clinic shootings and bombings, primarily because those rallys attract the most extreme, the same ones who equate abortion providers and clinics with Josef Mengele and the holocaust, and that language is often used in their speaches. But, I do not think of abortion clinic murders simply when I see a pro life person. If we are to expect all muslims to continuously denounce terrorism or be labelled a terrorist supporter, we should expect all jews to continuously denounce crimes of Israel, otherwise they should be considered a supporter of all the worst Israel has done. This should apply to pro life people as well, they should have to denounce every act of violence committed in the name of their cause, otherwise be deemed a supporter.

 

[Duo_Maxwell]

[quote name='camoor'][quote name='bmulligan']Just as an example, if I were to mention Right-To-Lifer's, don't you almost immediately think of abortion doctor killings? I do.[/quote]

Actually I think of that wide-eyed soft-spoken girl in the presidential election who asked Kerry about his stance on abortion.

For me, she really crystalizes the image of the mouth-breathing, brainwashed, corn-fed midwestern ignoramus that decided the outcome of this election.[/quote]

Funny you often crystalize the typical know-it-all, christian hating, liberal who thinks he's better than most everyone else...so in a way you both have a lot in common.

Edit: OK that may have been a bit harsh, but no offense Camoor you certainly have a way of arrogance about you.

 

[bmulligan]

I do not think of abortion clinic murders simply when I see a pro life person. If we are to expect all muslims to continuously denounce terrorism or be labelled a terrorist supporter, we should expect all jews to continuously denounce crimes of Israel, otherwise they should be considered a supporter of all the worst Israel has done. This should apply to pro life people as well, they should have to denounce every act of violence committed in the name of their cause, otherwise be deemed a supporter.

We're not talking about what you do when you see an indivual peron. We're talking about a nebulous commonality of prejudicial beliefs held by the 'public'. I'm sure your a fine upstanding objective person, but most aren't, as I'm sure you wouldn't hesitate to admit.

You can say it until you're blue in the face that all muslims aren't terrorists, yet you can't escape the reality that some people don't distinguish the difference. Therefore, it behooves the peaceful Islamic community to repeat themselves on a daily basis because of all the stupid people in the world who believe otherwise and congregate/propogate with the same.

The jewish family down the street commited no crime, and, rightly, they are not expected to denounce every israeli crime. And when a christian abortion extremist calls for the murder of doctors at an abortion clinic, something I have witnessed myself in public outside an abortion clinic, you don't expect every christian to denounce or apologize for his comments.

Why not, if it's a crime, shouldn't they dennounce it, jewish or not? Wouldn't it be in their best interest to denounce it publicly to let the general public know that there ARE differences of opinion and practice within their faith ? I know I would certainlly expect a christian person to dennounce murder for whatever reason. Especially murders that are committed in god's name, if for no other reason to make sure there is no confusion between right to life, army of god, and latter day saints. Too much information in this case CAN be a much better thing than a lack thereof.

Not only is it a good idea to appease american hearts and minds, it can also be reassuring to muslim believers accross the globe who desire freedom. A message that they are not alone and their desire for freedom is not without hope could do wonders for our cause and help bring our troops home faster.

 

[alonzomourning23]

[quote name='bmulligan']
We're not talking about what you do when you see an indivual peron. We're talking about a nebulous commonality of prejudicial beliefs held by the 'public'. I'm sure your a fine upstanding objective person, but most aren't, as I'm sure you wouldn't hesitate to admit.

You can say it until you're blue in the face that all muslims aren't terrorists, yet you can't escape the reality that some people don't distinguish the difference. Therefore, it behooves the peaceful Islamic community to repeat themselves on a daily basis because of all the stupid people in the world who believe otherwise and congregate/propogate with the same. [/quote]

First, you asked me what I thought when I met a "right to lifer", so you were talking about me. But as far as I'm concerned, when the idiots are within our community it is our problem to deal with. You expect muslims to deal with the violent extremists in their community, and the bigots in ours as well. If they're expected to silence their extremists, we should be expected to silence our own.

Why not, if it's a crime, shouldn't they dennounce it, jewish or not? Wouldn't it be in their best interest to denounce it publicly to let the general public know that there ARE differences of opinion and practice within their faith ? I know I would certainlly expect a christian person to dennounce murder for whatever reason. Especially murders that are committed in god's name, if for no other reason to make sure there is no confusion between right to life, army of god, and latter day saints. Too much information in this case CAN be a much better thing than a lack thereof.

I can see denouncing them as violent acts and to show opposition to them, that's fine, and it's be done many times over. But, it is not your responsibility as a christian (if you are one, otherwise put someones else here) to repeatedly denounce the KKK or be viewed as a supporter. It should not be the job of jews to repeatedly denounce every brutal act by Israel or be viewed as a supporter, and it should not be the job of muslims to repeatedly denounce every act of terrorism or be viewed as a supporter. And, as an american, I'd resent being forced to repeatedly denounce every crime (such as abu ghraib) that americans commit, luckily I have yet to meet a person who expected that of me. Also, I'd like to point out, I have never apologized for any action america has ever commited, and I have never denounced an american action simply to show others that, as an american, I opposed it. Any time I have denounced an action by America it was because I wanted to denounce it in the course of the conversation, because I opposed it, and not an attempt to distance myself from american actions that I had no part in.

Muslims should not be responsible for stamping out the idiots in our community, that should be our job. You seem to think muslims should have to deal with their garbage and ours, while we have no responsibility of ridding ourselves of our own bigots. It won't improve unless we do something about it, we're the ones with power. And, as you admitted, they have denounced it and the media does not cover it. There's really nothing more they can do anyway, unless you want every muslim to walk around with a plaque on their chest saying "I do not support terrorism", or to start every sentence with "as a muslim who does not support terrorism".

 

[Drocket]

bmulligan. I couldn't help but to notice your lack of a daily apology for Iraqi prisoners who have been beaten to death by US soldiers in Iraq. Since you don't seem to have apologized for that every single day since these crimes were discovered, the only conclusion that I can come to is that you support US troops beating defenseless prisoners to death.

 

[The Narrator's Apprentice]

Checkmate in 2, Drocket thought, I finally got him. Unfortunately, he misunderstood the rules of engagement. He left his queen exposed to his opponent's bishop and was about to recieve a beating of his own. "Damn," he sputtered," why doesn't he move! He's terrorizing me with that ing bishop! MOVE GODDAMNIT !" Silence and tension ensued.

Drocket, knowing that his entire reputation had been in question, now knew it was on the edge of extinction. His breathing became short and audible. His limbs would barely function as he turned and clicked himself into a frenzy attempting to locate the daily slaughter reports. "I've got to cover my tracks." Desperatly he searched for the right move but couldn't make a decision. Finally he turned back.

His queen was gone, but so too was bmulligan. "A forfeit, a forfeit!" he countered, "I win!" It was a hollow victory, but victory, nonetheless. He removed his belt to commemorate the occasion and sliced through his finger in error. His king, now tinged in blood would survive this day otherwise unscathed.

 

[Scrubking]

[quote name='Drocket']bmulligan. I couldn't help but to notice your lack of a daily apology for Iraqi prisoners who have been beaten to death by US soldiers in Iraq. Since you don't seem to have apologized for that every single day since these crimes were discovered, the only conclusion that I can come to is that you support US troops beating defenseless prisoners to death.[/quote]

That is the funniest hunk of bullshit I have heard in a while. You forgot to add raping the women and pillaging the towns.

 

[Drocket]

[quote name='Scrubking']That is the funniest hunk of bullshit I have heard in a while. You forgot to add raping the women and pillaging the towns.[/quote]
I prefer to use accusations that have been proven in a court of law.

 

[PsyClerk]

[quote name='camoor']For me, she really crystalizes the image of the mouth-breathing, brainwashed, corn-fed midwestern ignoramus that decided the outcome of this election.[/quote]

Now that, my friends, will win you votes.

 

[Trancendental]

[quote name='Duo_Maxwell'][quote name='camoor'][quote name='bmulligan']Just as an example, if I were to mention Right-To-Lifer's, don't you almost immediately think of abortion doctor killings? I do.[/quote]

Actually I think of that wide-eyed soft-spoken girl in the presidential election who asked Kerry about his stance on abortion.

For me, she really crystalizes the image of the mouth-breathing, brainwashed, corn-fed midwestern ignoramus that decided the outcome of this election.[/quote]

Funny you often crystalize the typical know-it-all, christian hating, liberal who thinks he's better than most everyone else...so in a way you both have a lot in common.[/quote]

I take offense at that, I don't think I'm better then everyone else

IKIK I don't hate Christians, yet I do feel a need to point out the hypocrisy of a segment of the American population that is Christian in name only.

 

[Scrubking]

[quote name='PsyClerk'][quote name='camoor']For me, she really crystalizes the image of the mouth-breathing, brainwashed, corn-fed midwestern ignoramus that decided the outcome of this election.[/quote]

Now that, my friends, will win you votes.[/quote]

I love how the insignificant minority keeps trying to make themselves out to be intellectual giants of society.

I guess that's all they can do to make themselves feel better.

 

[Trancendental]

[quote name='Scrubking'][quote name='PsyClerk'][quote name='camoor']For me, she really crystalizes the image of the mouth-breathing, brainwashed, corn-fed midwestern ignoramus that decided the outcome of this election.[/quote]

Now that, my friends, will win you votes.[/quote]

I love how the insignificant minority keeps trying to make themselves out to be intellectual giants of society.

I guess that's all they can do to make themselves feel better. [/quote]

Hmm, I would love to see the dictionary that describes 49% as an "insignificant minority". What color is the sky in your world?

 

[Mistik]

I just have to say that if I agreed with bmulligan I would expect every single Christian on this board to personally apologize for the Oklahoma City Bomblings. But I don't agree with him therefore I don't expect that.

 

[bmulligan]

[quote name='Mistik']I just have to say that if I agreed with bmulligan I would expect every single Christian on this board to personally apologize for the Oklahoma City Bomblings. But I don't agree with him therefore I don't expect that.[/quote]
No, really, you didn't have to just say anything. if you understood what the adults were talking about here you might be able to form a more legitimate opinion, or perhaps just come to the point and agree or disagree instead of just being redundant.

The Oklahoma federal building bombers weren't doing it in the name of the christian god, were they? Did they claim to do it becuase their victims were infidels against the entire christian religion? Did they give reason for the bombing as the answer to a crusade on the christian people? Did they claim to speak for christianity? NO, they did not. It's almost a complete opposite of what the terroritsts are claiming in their attacks against Americans. The situations are completely different.

 

[alonzomourning23]

[quote name='bmulligan'][quote name='Mistik']I just have to say that if I agreed with bmulligan I would expect every single Christian on this board to personally apologize for the Oklahoma City Bomblings. But I don't agree with him therefore I don't expect that.[/quote]
No, really, you didn't have to just say anything. if you understood what the adults were talking about here you might be able to form a more legitimate opinion, or perhaps just come to the point and agree or disagree instead of just being redundant.

The Oklahoma federal building bombers weren't doing it in the name of the christian god, were they? Did they claim to do it becuase their victims were infidels against the entire christian religion? Did they give reason for the bombing as the answer to a crusade on the christian people? Did they claim to speak for christianity? NO, they did not. It's almost a complete opposite of what the terroritsts are claiming in their attacks against Americans. The situations are completely different.[/quote]

It seems you are still paying attention to this topic, so instead of picking up on one bad example, why don't you answer some of the questions others, such as drocket, have asked? To start with, why don't you, as an american, denounce daily abu ghraib and other crimes? Or maybe you could say why, assuming you are a white christian male (or if not christian but white you could substitute neo nazis), why don't you repeatedly denounce the kkk and similar groups?

 

[bmulligan]

Because, the question is laughable. If you took the time to actually READ my last post, you might have a little more insight as to why. I do not claim to be a representative of the united states, the christian religion, white america, or the army. The heads of muslim gropus have a responsibility to their own members to distinguish and distance themselves from the extremists to try to avoid the prejudices against them that inevitably result from whackos claiming to speak for Islam. Get a freaking clue. I'm not asking every muslim to personally apoligize to me every day because some nut in Iraq is trying to kill infidels for allah. Stop reducing to the ridiculous and focus, will you?

 

[alonzomourning23]

[quote name='bmulligan']Because, the question is laughable. If you took the time to actually READ my last post, you might have a little more insight as to why. I do not claim to be a representative of the united states, the christian religion, white america, or the army. The heads of muslim gropus have a responsibility to their own members to distinguish and distance themselves from the extremists to try to avoid the prejudices against them that inevitably result from whackos claiming to speak for Islam. Get a freaking clue. I'm not asking every muslim to personally apoligize to me every day because some nut in Iraq is trying to kill infidels for allah. Stop reducing to the ridiculous and focus, will you?[/quote]

Well, looking at the responses here you seem to be the only one (besides scrubking, who doesn't do anything besides make his "liberals are evil" comments) who thinks that is ridiculous. But I'm going to take just one example, and I want to know why you don't have a problem with the lack of people denouncing it and similar situations.

What about this, and the many reports (verified and unverified) of palestinians being shot for no reason. I remember a few months ago, an link (this link also mentions that Israeli desecrated dead palestinian bodies) Israeli soldier shot a little palestinian girl, then went up to her and shot her again, walked away, then went back and emptied his gun into her. The soldiers under the commander said he was waiting for a palestinian to shoot, and they pleaded with him to stop. What was the Israeli armies response?

The investigation did not find that the company or the company commander had acted unethically

link. This does not mean he was cleared though, far from it:

But the officer remains suspended for poor relations with subordinates.

Well, glad to see he got what he deserved.

With all the accusations that things like this are commonplace, all the anti-semitism that these sorts of actions create, where are the denouncements? Did Sharon denounce it? No. What about rabbis? Haven't heard from them either. This may be more graphic than most, but it's not the only time an innocent palestinian was killed, and the rumors in the middle east and many pro palestinian people are much worse than what actually occurs. Israeli likes to state it represents the jewish people, how come Jewish leaders never denounce actions such as these? And if they do, I sure as hell don't hear it. If I can't sit in front of my tv and hear them then it's their fault, correct? It wouldn't matter if every temple in Israel denounced it, if it's not on tv then they didn't denounce it enough, right? They should repeatedly denounce it, to counter bigotry against them, since our bigotry is their problem and not ours, isn't that what you're suggesting? Isn't it their responsibility to distance themselves from those actions? Isn't it their responsibility to show us that they don't support these actions?

Look, I'm not an anti semite, I don't think every Israeli is like that. But for me, the defining image of the palestinian/israeli conflict is not stone throwers, tanks, arafat, suicide bombers etc., it's that girl, killed because an Israeli soldier had a twisted idea of fun. There was no cause, no reason, he just wanted to kill, he wanted a corpse. And I just looked on the internet, the only Israelis, with the exception of one minor politician, that I can find, who denounced it were the soldiers with the commander. And their commander was denounced for not doing a better job at controlling them. These actions create more bigots, and make those that are already bigots even moreso, but no one is claiming that the rabbi in the temple a few blocks from my apartment should have to repeatedly state he opposes this, especially when, and I've seen, he is a supporter of Israel.

You stated earlier that we expect all groups to repeatedly denounce those who commit violence either in their name or under their banner, I haven't seen any evidence of this. Muslims are constantly condemned for not doing more to denounce the terrorists, what other groups do we expect anything similar from? In toronto 12% of the population is chinese, I haven't heard anyone that expects them to repeatedly denounce human rights abuses in China, or the brutal occupation of tibet. No one expects me to denounce what others do under the banner of america, my country, such as abu ghraib. But I have friends who are hindu, not even muslims, and they are expected to repeatedly denounce terrorist attacks such as 9/11. They get called osama, co-workers make racist jokes about them blowing up things, sometimes to their face, that's our problem, not theirs. Take some responsibility, throw out your own garbage. At the very least don't expect others to do it for you.

People who do not commit violence should not be forced to apologize for those who do. Why should they be forced to suffer for actions they did not commit? Actions that, were they any other group, it would simply be assumed they were opposed? And, in the case of muslims, you admitted yourself the denunciations are there, the media just isn't picking up on them. Who's fault is that?

 

[bmulligan]

how come Jewish leaders never denounce actions such as these?

They do, the reason you don't hear it is becuase you don't read the right newspapers. Here in Michigan we have a large population of jewish people and locally, we hear the criticism of Israli policies as a regular occurance. The reason you don't hear it on TV? Take a guess. Perhaps it's more sensational to demonize the Jewish nation instead of garner american jewish reaction.

I sure as hell don't hear it. If I can't sit in front of my tv and hear them then it's their fault, correct? It wouldn't matter if every temple in Israel denounced it, if it's not on tv then they didn't denounce it enough, right? They should repeatedly denounce it, to counter bigotry against them, since our bigotry is their problem and not ours, isn't that what you're suggesting? Isn't it their responsibility to distance themselves from those actions? Isn't it their responsibility to show us that they don't support these actions?

Yes. Why are you looking for a fight here?

These actions create more bigots, and make those that are already bigots even moreso, but no one is claiming that the rabbi in the temple a few blocks from my apartment should have to repeatedly state he opposes this, especially when, and I've seen, he is a supporter of Israel.

Yes, the local rabbi should dennounce such acts and distance his religion form the acts of a rogue radical. Otherwise people think they are complicit in radical behavior. Wouldn't you think that ?

You stated earlier that we expect all groups to repeatedly denounce those who commit violence either in their name or under their banner, I haven't seen any evidence of this. Muslims are constantly condemned for not doing more to denounce the terrorists, what other groups do we expect anything similar from? In toronto 12% of the population is chinese, I haven't heard anyone that expects them to repeatedly denounce human rights abuses in China, or the brutal occupation of tibet. No one expects me to denounce what others do under the banner of america, my country, such as abu ghraib. But I have friends who are hindu, not even muslims, and they are expected to repeatedly denounce terrorist attacks such as 9/11.

Now you have gone into the realm of absurd. There is no point in continuing since you cannot grasp the intention of my previous statements. How is my belief that muslim group leaders should do more to dennounce terrorism linked to the fact that your hindu friends are being descriminated against? Perhaps if Muslim leaders DID do such, then less people would be tempted to group your hindu friends in with radical Islamics.
Chineese people living here have nothing to do with the government of China and their way iof supressing human rights. I'm sure they are against the Chineese governments practices just like the rest of americans. And would you stop confusing this issue with minutia of meaningless anecdotes ? The fact that we don't expect 'other' groups to dennounce terrorists may be due to the fact that most of those other groups haven't declared "HOLY WAR" on all american citizens in the name of Islam, or any other religious group. And no one expects you to apoligize for american wrong doings? I suspect you don't travel abraod very much, because many europeans expect just that. Again, you must just be arguing for the sake of argument because you aren't following any pattern of logic here.

People who do not commit violence should not be forced to apologize for those who do.

Again, an absurd notion. No one is forcing anyone else to apoligize for anything. But it certainly wouldn't take a whole lot of common sense to do just that. When a terrorist claims to speak for an entire religion, distancing yourself from them illustrates and educates that your religion doesn't consider violent terrorists to be their spokesperson.

You've already said yourself you have witnessed the uneducated in action by threatening your friends as if they were terrorists. Don't you think repetitive public dennounciation would serve to educate the idiots who get their news from only TV or newspapers ? I do. Yeah, it sucks there are so many idiots out there, but what are we to do? Not expect anything from Muslim leaders because it's their right to be silent? I understand they are doing something about it, but they certainlly could do more.

 

[Drocket]

[quote name='bmulligan']They do, the reason you don't hear it is becuase you don't read the right newspapers. Here in Michigan we have a large population of jewish people and locally, we hear the criticism of Israli policies as a regular occurance. The reason you don't hear it on TV? Take a guess. Perhaps it's more sensational to demonize the Jewish nation instead of garner american jewish reaction. [/quote]

So just to be clear: you think that Jewish people regularly denounce violence committed in their name, but that its suppressed by the evil anti-semite media, while at the same time, you think that Muslims aren't condemming violence done in their name because you haven't heard about it in the media?

Hate to break this to you, but you're a ing idiot.

Here's a thought: the media simply don't broadcast "I'm sorry"s (on any side) because realistically, they're just not particularly interesting or news-worthy. Meanwhile, both Jewish people and Muslims are condeming violence done in their name, but you only hear about the Jewish ones because they're local to you and hear it through the grapevine.

 

[bmulligan]

[quote name='Drocket']
So just to be clear: you think that Jewish people regularly denounce violence committed in their name, but that its suppressed by the evil anti-semite media, while at the same time, you think that Muslims aren't condemming violence done in their name because you haven't heard about it in the media?
[/quote]

Let me be clearer, it must take a ing asshole to recognize a ing idiot, because you are the epitome of holiness assness. That's right, it's an anti-semitic conspiracy by the media.

The reason you don't hear about Israeli dennuncuation by american jews is the same as why you don't hear the denunciation of terrorists by american muslims, it's not newsworthy. And I never said muslims weren't condemning the violence, I'm simply saying their leaders could do more, and more loudly, if for nothing else, to educate the idiots who don't know the difference. Maybe If I SPOKE MORE LOUDLY, AN IDIOT LIKE YOU COULD KNOW THE DIFFERNECE TOO INSTEAD OF IGNORING MY STATEMENTS AND PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH, you freaking jackass.

Here's a thought: the media simply don't broadcast "I'm sorry"s (on any side) because realistically, they're just not particularly interesting or news-worthy. Meanwhile, both Jewish people and Muslims are condeming violence done in their name, but you only hear about the Jewish ones because they're local to you and hear it through the grapevine.

Here's another thought. Since you have no idea where I live, you wouldn't know that the southeastern area of Michigan not only has the largest contingencies of jews in the US, but of arabs, chaldeans and muslims also. And yes, I read and hear about dennunciations of violence from both groups regularly. Unfortunately, the rest of the country does not. So, Drocket, suck off, you're as bad as Mr. Friday.

 

[alonzomourning23]

[quote name='bmulligan']
They do, the reason you don't hear it is becuase you don't read the right newspapers. Here in Michigan we have a large population of jewish people and locally, we hear the criticism of Israli policies as a regular occurance. The reason you don't hear it on TV? Take a guess. Perhaps it's more sensational to demonize the Jewish nation instead of garner american jewish reaction. [/quote]

Well two things, one the newspapers aren't even posting those articles online, or at least so they can be easily found. Two, it does not matter if they do, your argument, acknowledging that muslims denounce terrorism, is that since enough people don't know they denounced it then they have to denounce it even more. Very few have seen any such denouncements from the jewish community. I would also like to point out that I live right next to the UJA and a large jewish community and I have not heard anything.

Yes, the local rabbi should dennounce such acts and distance his religion form the acts of a rogue radical. Otherwise people think they are complicit in radical behavior. Wouldn't you think that ?

I'm going to refer to the rest of your responses here, they are similar and it would be pointless to individually break them up. A nation, an extremist religious group etc. all supposedly speak for their people. There is nothing they can do about it, and expecting them all to be forced to denounce it or be viewed as a sympathizer, and targets of bigotry, only results in more animosity, and increased isolation of that group. The fact that it is members of our group that are the bigots in this case, the fact that we determine what is on the news, and choose not to cover such denouncements even when they occur, the fact that many of our members cannot even differentiate between members of one group and members of another, show that bigotry is a problem with us. It is our problem to rid ourselves of. Again, you expect muslims to take care of the terrorists within their community, take care of the bigots in our community, and us to act like we have no responsibility to fix our communities problems and that others should do it is ridiculous. If american or atheist extremists startied bombing hotels all over the world, that's not my responsibility. It's not my job to distance myself from them, it should simply be assumed I don't support them unless I give evidence to the contrary. You often argue that people and communities need to take more responsibility for their lives and actions, why don't we start here. They're in our community, we should get rid of them.

 

[alonzomourning23]

[quote name='bmulligan'][quote name='Drocket']
Here's a thought: the media simply don't broadcast "I'm sorry"s (on any side) because realistically, they're just not particularly interesting or news-worthy. Meanwhile, both Jewish people and Muslims are condeming violence done in their name, but you only hear about the Jewish ones because they're local to you and hear it through the grapevine.[/quote]

Here's another thought. Since you have no idea where I live, you wouldn't know that the southeastern area of Michigan not only has the largest contingencies of jews in the US, but of arabs, chaldeans and muslims also. And yes, I read and hear about dennunciations of violence from both groups regularly. Unfortunately, the rest of the country does not. So, Drocket, suck off, you're as bad as Mr. Friday.[/quote]

You fail to see that, by your own logic, jews are not doing enough. The majority of peole do not hear the denunciations, therefore:
[quote name='bmulligan']I'm simply saying their leaders could do more, and more loudly, if for nothing else, to educate the idiots who don't know the difference. [/quote]

 

[bmulligan]

I agree, Jewish leaders aren't doing enough to force Isreal to deal with their problems more effectively. The jewish community is strongly divided over settlements, though, a major sticking point to a peacefull settlement between Israel and the Palestinian Authority.

But so what? I agree with you, the jewish community doesn't do enough. Are you still looking for a fight or something? Yes, it's awful we expect people to draw fifferences between their own religious group and the extreme fringes. We all should assume they are different unless shown otherwise, innocent until proven guilty, so to speak. But again, you fail to see reality and implications of actual behavior for the solace of ideal acedemian utopia that exists only in your daydreams.

 

[Drocket]

Maybe they should riot. That would get them some media attention so they can make a public statement about how they denounce terrorism.

Seriously, I don't know what you expect them to do. There are TONS of Islamic leaders who have denounced terrorism. They simply don't get much media airplay because, quite simply, its not a newstory. Short of blowing things up, I'm not sure what they could do to MAKE it a newstory.