Medical Liability Reform?

Scrubking

Scrubking

CAGiversary!
I am watching Bush talk about medical reform and it makes me sick. This is an area I really disagree with Bush on. How is helping doctors get away with leaving stuff inside your body good? I hate hospitals and if Bush gets his way I will hate them even more. Good luck if they cut off the wrong leg or leave a tool inside your body.

Quick story
I once saw an interview with a lady who was operated on by some doctors. The procedure was supposed to be on her knee. Well apparently the anesthesiologist forgot to add the pain killer to the formula so the lady was unconscious, but felt every single ounce of pain. To make things even better after they opened her up the doctor realized he had screwed up cause her knee was perfectly fine.
 
I totally agree with you. With any job, you are accountable for your actions, and they go to school and make a lot of money to not make mistakes.
 
Bush keeps saying that the problem is people suing. There are a couple of real problems.
One is that the insurance companies keep jacking up the liability rates for doctors without rhyme or reason. The Florida state senate held hearings I think in late 2003 about the insurance rates. The insurance people were going to testify about how malpractice suits was forcing them to raise their rates, but they were put under oath, and instead they testified that malpractice suits didn't influence their rate hikes.
The other main problem is accountability of doctors. I saw somewhere that most of the malpractice suits came against a handful of doctors. The bad doctors need to be weeded out.
I do know someone who was in Vietnam, and he got TB in his lungs. So the army operated on him. They came in after the operation and said oops, we took out the wrong lung, so we have to go in and repair the one you have left. Now he has half a lung left. Since he was in the army, he couldn't sue them.
 
Oh, and I forgot to add that the guy running the Miami Jackson Hospital got busted for robbing the hospital blind. He stole millions, and as a result the hospital was at risk of closing down until they found out about this guy and caught him.
 
Funny, I actually believe Bush is moving in the right direction on this one, he's addressing one part of a three-pronged problem.

There need to be caps on medical lawsuit payouts.

There needs to be an IAD-type organization that's created for doctors. Review boards are too buddy-buddy.

Health insurance companies need to be forced to provide the services that they promise. They also need to deal more effectively with the 10% of the population that eats up 90% of the coverage. It's another industry that pleads poverty to Congress while never missing a profit.
 
[quote name='Scrubking']How is helping doctors get away with leaving stuff inside your body good?[/quote]

Its simply another aspect of Bush's firmly-held conviction that people (rich people, at least) shouldn't be held responsible for their actions. Otherwise, Rumsfeld would be pitched out the White House door so hard he'd bounce all the way to the Lincoln Memorial.

Reform is needed in the medical field, but Bush's plan revolves pretty much entirely around protecting the profits of hospitals, insurance companies and drug corporations.
 
I can't make up my mind here. Doctors and medical staff need to be held accountable for their actions, and I did have a family member that suffered injuries which lead to death due to the medical staff. But at the same time, many lawsuits are frivolous. I agree with (as somebody mentioned) weeding out the bad and incompetent doctors. We don't have a doctor shortage in the u.s., we have no reason not to get rid of the worst ones.
 
[quote name='CaseyRyback']I totally agree with you. With any job, you are accountable for your actions, and they go to school and make a lot of money to not make mistakes.[/quote]

Yup I'm with you. The bad doctors need to be weeded out as well as the frivolous law suits. I don't think there are a lot of frivolous lawsuits but there are some and they too need to be taken care of. I doubt that there are enough of these to truly make a dent in the insurance agency like someone else posted.
 
Its the difference between suing someone for giving you cancer and suing someone for giving you a hot cup of coffee. Now if they leave a tool in your body they should get in trouble no matter what. I think Bush is just trying to stop the frivality.

"Reform is needed in the medical field, but Bush's plan revolves pretty much entirely around protecting the profits of hospitals, insurance companies and drug corporations."

Yeah, and? Doctors and drug companies are doing some of the most potentially dangerous work out there; they deserve the money they get.
 
[quote name='Scrubking']
Quick story
I once saw an interview with a lady who was operated on by some doctors. The procedure was supposed to be on her knee. Well apparently the anesthesiologist forgot to add the pain killer to the formula so the lady was unconscious, but felt every single ounce of pain. To make things even better after they opened her up the doctor realized he had screwed up cause her knee was perfectly fine.[/quote]

In plenty of cases they add the pain killer and the patient feels the whole thing anyhow, its not very uncommon, so perhaps she was given a pain killer and it simply didn't work. I really wouldn't even call it a screwup, she probably came in for knee problems and after x-rays doctors thought that they problem appeared to be fixable by surgury and apperently they were wrong. Diagnosises are guesses based on the information available to the docotr they won't be right all the time, this type of thing is expected. A screw up would be the doctors operating on the wrong knee.


I'm for medical liability reform, so long as it pertains to limits on money given out for emotional pain and suffering, just as I am for limiting all other awards for emotinal anguish.
 
[quote name='zionoverfire'][quote name='Scrubking']
Quick story
I once saw an interview with a lady who was operated on by some doctors. The procedure was supposed to be on her knee. Well apparently the anesthesiologist forgot to add the pain killer to the formula so the lady was unconscious, but felt every single ounce of pain. To make things even better after they opened her up the doctor realized he had screwed up cause her knee was perfectly fine.[/quote]

In plenty of cases they add the pain killer and the patient feels the whole thing anyhow, its not very uncommon, so perhaps she was given a pain killer and it simply didn't work. I really wouldn't even call it a screwup, she probably came in for knee problems and after x-rays doctors thought that they problem appeared to be fixable by surgury and apperently they were wrong. Diagnosises are guesses based on the information available to the docotr they won't be right all the time, this type of thing is expected. A screw up would be the doctors operating on the wrong knee.


I'm for medical liability reform, so long as it pertains to limits on money given out for emotional pain and suffering, just as I am for limiting all other awards for emotinal anguish.[/quote]

The doctor told her she had something in her knee and needed to get operated. "Oops I made a mistake" doesn't cut it after putting you through all that. This was a clear case of malpractice. It's acceptable to not be right all the time when fixing a computer or a toaster, but not when you are messing with someone's body and opening it up. Doctors get paid tons of money to BE RIGHT ALL THE TIME.
 
[quote name='Scrubking']... Doctors get paid tons of money to BE RIGHT ALL THE TIME.[/quote]

Noone is right all the time. Think about the deaths caused by mistakes in judgement made by police, fighter pilots, firemen, or politicians. This doesn't necessarily mean that the people who made the mistakes are bad at their jobs. People are human and in highly stressful situations they will not always make the best judgement. The fact is that with doctors we must weed out the truly ineffective and mistake-prone, but we cannot punish the other 95% of the pool for simply being human.

The average speacialist is likely to be sued 3 times in his lifetime, and it's higher for obstreticians because when a baby comes out with something wrong, most parents blame the doctor (never mind that mom was smoking, drinking, etc) Clearly the current system is broken, and something needs to be done.
 
[quote name='Scrubking'][quote name='zionoverfire'][quote name='Scrubking']
Quick story
I once saw an interview with a lady who was operated on by some doctors. The procedure was supposed to be on her knee. Well apparently the anesthesiologist forgot to add the pain killer to the formula so the lady was unconscious, but felt every single ounce of pain. To make things even better after they opened her up the doctor realized he had screwed up cause her knee was perfectly fine.[/quote]

In plenty of cases they add the pain killer and the patient feels the whole thing anyhow, its not very uncommon, so perhaps she was given a pain killer and it simply didn't work. I really wouldn't even call it a screwup, she probably came in for knee problems and after x-rays doctors thought that they problem appeared to be fixable by surgury and apperently they were wrong. Diagnosises are guesses based on the information available to the docotr they won't be right all the time, this type of thing is expected. A screw up would be the doctors operating on the wrong knee.


I'm for medical liability reform, so long as it pertains to limits on money given out for emotional pain and suffering, just as I am for limiting all other awards for emotinal anguish.[/quote]

The doctor told her she had something in her knee and needed to get operated. "Oops I made a mistake" doesn't cut it after putting you through all that. This was a clear case of malpractice. It's acceptable to not be right all the time when fixing a computer or a toaster, but not when you are messing with someone's body and opening it up. Doctors get paid tons of money to BE RIGHT ALL THE TIME.[/quote]

Doctors aren't paid tons of money to be right all the time they are paid tons of money because they are in high demand. Doctors will never be perfect since so much of medicine is educated guessing.
 
[quote name='zionoverfire'][quote name='Scrubking'][quote name='zionoverfire'][quote name='Scrubking']
Quick story
I once saw an interview with a lady who was operated on by some doctors. The procedure was supposed to be on her knee. Well apparently the anesthesiologist forgot to add the pain killer to the formula so the lady was unconscious, but felt every single ounce of pain. To make things even better after they opened her up the doctor realized he had screwed up cause her knee was perfectly fine.[/quote]

In plenty of cases they add the pain killer and the patient feels the whole thing anyhow, its not very uncommon, so perhaps she was given a pain killer and it simply didn't work. I really wouldn't even call it a screwup, she probably came in for knee problems and after x-rays doctors thought that they problem appeared to be fixable by surgury and apperently they were wrong. Diagnosises are guesses based on the information available to the docotr they won't be right all the time, this type of thing is expected. A screw up would be the doctors operating on the wrong knee.


I'm for medical liability reform, so long as it pertains to limits on money given out for emotional pain and suffering, just as I am for limiting all other awards for emotinal anguish.[/quote]

The doctor told her she had something in her knee and needed to get operated. "Oops I made a mistake" doesn't cut it after putting you through all that. This was a clear case of malpractice. It's acceptable to not be right all the time when fixing a computer or a toaster, but not when you are messing with someone's body and opening it up. Doctors get paid tons of money to BE RIGHT ALL THE TIME.[/quote]

Doctors aren't paid tons of money to be right all the time they are paid tons of money because they are in high demand. Doctors will never be perfect since so much of medicine is educated guessing.[/quote]

So you'd pay a bum less money because all medicine is is a bunch of guessing? You can take that risk, I'd rather not.
 
I'm in the medical field so hope I can put some perspective from the other side on this. First of all, there really has to be a cap to these lawsuits. For every high profile case of a surgeon leaving a sponge in the patient or amputating the wrong leg etc. (which obviously is an egregious error) there are hundreds of frivolous lawsuits of patients suing doctors simply for material gain. This leads to doctors forcing to practice "defensive medicine" where you order a gazillion dollars worth of unnecessary tests jacking up the price of health care even further and ultimately everyone pays for this by higher insurance premiums. Also doctors in high risk specialities like Ob/GYn are now leaving the field just becasue they can't afford the immense malpractice premiums (often a third of their salary). I understand that people think doctors make alot of money and they do but keep in mind it entails 4 years of college, 4 years of medical school then depending on the specialty 3 years mininum for residency and then 1-3 years more for fellowship. That's 11 years minimum of training, often leading to a six figure debt (like myself) and during residency you make less than minimum wage if you calculate by hourly wage (for example I routinely work 60-80 hours a week often six days a weeks). I'm even writing this while on overnight call at the hospital right now. So doctors as a whole are not "greedy", there are far easier ways to make money if that is truly the goal. Because of the fear of these astronomical payments which could destroy a doctors career, they often feel compelled to settle, of even their insurance firms will force them to settle and basically encourage more and more laqwsuits. Statistically two-thirds of all doctors will be sued at least once in their career. In comparision statistically, only 1/3 of malpractice cases go in favor of the patient. That means 2/3's of all lawsuits have no merit.

I personally think the easiest way to fix the system is to implement a "loser pays" system where the losing party in the lawsuit pays for ALL court costs. Thus this would deter defendants from bring frivolous lawsuits since they would have to pay everything if they lost, but this shouldn't deter plaintiffs with legitamite lawsuits. This also would encourage lawyers for the physician side to defend more lawsuits aggressively. Just my two cents.
 
[quote name='dopa345']during residency you make less than minimum wage if you calculate by hourly wage (for example I routinely work 60-80 hours a week often six days a weeks). I'm even writing this while on overnight call at the hospital right now. [/quote]

This is another subject that I think is at least peripherally related. How many mistakes do you think are made because of the residency system? I'm sure that more than a few (thousand) people have died because of mistakes made because of sheer exhastion at the end of a 24 hour+ shift, all for a system who's best defense tends to be 'all doctors go through it'. Conditions far past the point where its illegal to fly a commercial airliner (which are 90% automated anymore) for safety reasons are conditions under which doctors are required to practice every day. Fixing the residency system alone would probably significantly reduce the number of medical mistakes, and figuring out a system where all doctors are only permitted to practice under 'good' conditions would help even more.
 
[quote name='Drocket'][quote name='dopa345']during residency you make less than minimum wage if you calculate by hourly wage (for example I routinely work 60-80 hours a week often six days a weeks). I'm even writing this while on overnight call at the hospital right now. [/quote]

This is another subject that I think is at least peripherally related. How many mistakes do you think are made because of the residency system? I'm sure that more than a few (thousand) people have died because of mistakes made because of sheer exhastion at the end of a 24 hour+ shift, all for a system who's best defense tends to be 'all doctors go through it'. Conditions far past the point where its illegal to fly a commercial airliner (which are 90% automated anymore) for safety reasons are conditions under which doctors are required to practice every day. Fixing the residency system alone would probably significantly reduce the number of medical mistakes, and figuring out a system where all doctors are only permitted to practice under 'good' conditions would help even more.[/quote]

So true. Hospitals and health insurance use some of the most outdated technology on the market for their HR work. Management in both organizations are for the most part completely inept. It really is pathetic.
 
[quote name='Drocket']

This is another subject that I think is at least peripherally related. How many mistakes do you think are made because of the residency system? I'm sure that more than a few (thousand) people have died because of mistakes made because of sheer exhastion at the end of a 24 hour+ shift, all for a system who's best defense tends to be 'all doctors go through it'. Conditions far past the point where its illegal to fly a commercial airliner (which are 90% automated anymore) for safety reasons are conditions under which doctors are required to practice every day. Fixing the residency system alone would probably significantly reduce the number of medical mistakes, and figuring out a system where all doctors are only permitted to practice under 'good' conditions would help even more.[/quote]

Well, it's not as bad as you make it out to be. First off all, there have been reforms so now the absolute maximum that a resident can remain on duty is 24 hours and the cap for the maximum hours in the week is 80 now and the residency accreditation committee stricty enforces this; they have put some high profile hospital programs on probation for violating this. Keep in mind not too long ago it was 48-72 hour shifts, up to 100 hours in a week, especially for surgical residencies. So the system is trying to fix it but again it goes to cost. Residents are essentially cheap, necessary labor to keep hospitals running. So while I complain about the call and having to be here in the hospital overnight twice a week, it really is a necessary practice in order to keep hospitals open 24 hours a day. If you substitute a resident with a physician assistant, that costs 3 times as much; an attending covering would be probably 10 times as much.
 
And with universal health care there wouldn't be the strain on Emergency Rooms that right now uninsured patients have to use as primary healthcare.

We are the best country in the world. Why can't we guarantee quality healthcare to all our citizens?
 
Universal healthcare isn't the answer, at least for this country. There's an axiom in healthcare policy that with a limited budget you can basically have 2 out of the following 3 at the expense of the third: quality, access or cost. In the U.S. we're accustomed to excellent quality and access (being able to see a doctor or have study done in a timely). We have access and quality at the expense of cost. Canada which is often used as a model for universal coverage has such poor access is that the Canadian government pays for they citizens to get elective surgeries and tests done in the U.S. since they don't have the capacity to accomadate everyone in a timely manner. No way are US citizens going to tolerate waiting for months in order to have elective surgeries and studies done, we want everything quick and easy. You can't throw more money at the system because we already spend a seventh of our GNP on health care. And anyway, are you going to entrust the government to adequately cover all U.S. citizens when they can't even handle Medicare right? There has to be a huge paradigm shift in how we think about distributing health care resources. I have some ideas (I have a degree in Health management that I got with my M.D.) but that's too big a topic to go into here but in a nutshell, the best way to really cover everyone is to set up medical savings accounts for all citzens and have each individual directly responsible to his or her own health care.
 
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