New Bill Would Give President Emergency Control of the Internet

fullmetalfan720

CAGiversary!
Feedback
11 (100%)
Internet companies and civil liberties groups were alarmed this spring when a U.S. Senate bill proposed handing the White House the power to disconnect private-sector computers from the Internet.
They're not much happier about a revised version that aides to Sen. Jay Rockefeller, a West Virginia Democrat, have spent months drafting behind closed doors. CNET News has obtained a copy of the 55-page draft of S.773 (excerpt), which still appears to permit the president to seize temporary control of private-sector networks during a so-called cybersecurity emergency.

The new version would allow the president to "declare a cybersecurity emergency" relating to "non-governmental" computer networks and do what's necessary to respond to the threat. Other sections of the proposal include a federal certification program for "cybersecurity professionals," and a requirement that certain computer systems and networks in the private sector be managed by people who have been awarded that license.
"I think the redraft, while improved, remains troubling due to its vagueness," said Larry Clinton, president of the Internet Security Alliance, which counts representatives of Verizon, Verisign, Nortel, and Carnegie Mellon University on its board. "It is unclear what authority Sen. Rockefeller thinks is necessary over the private sector. Unless this is clarified, we cannot properly analyze, let alone support the bill."
Representatives of other large Internet and telecommunications companies expressed concerns about the bill in a teleconference with Rockefeller's aides this week, but were not immediately available for interviews on Thursday.
A spokesman for Rockefeller also declined to comment on the record Thursday, saying that many people were unavailable because of the summer recess. A Senate source familiar with the bill compared the president's power to take control of portions of the Internet to what President Bush did when grounding all aircraft on Sept. 11, 2001. The source said that one primary concern was the electrical grid, and what would happen if it were attacked from a broadband connection.
When Rockefeller, the chairman of the Senate Commerce committee, and Olympia Snowe (R-Maine) introduced the original bill in April, they claimed it was vital to protect national cybersecurity. "We must protect our critical infrastructure at all costs--from our water to our electricity, to banking, traffic lights and electronic health records," Rockefeller said.
The Rockefeller proposal plays out against a broader concern in Washington, D.C., about the government's role in cybersecurity. In May, President Obama acknowledged that the government is "not as prepared" as it should be to respond to disruptions and announced that a new cybersecurity coordinator position would be created inside the White House staff. Three months later, that post remains empty, one top cybersecurity aide has quit, and some wags have begun to wonder why a government that receives failing marks on cybersecurity should be trusted to instruct the private sector what to do.
Rockefeller's revised legislation seeks to reshuffle the way the federal government addresses the topic. It requires a "cybersecurity workforce plan" from every federal agency, a "dashboard" pilot project, measurements of hiring effectiveness, and the implementation of a "comprehensive national cybersecurity strategy" in six months--even though its mandatory legal review will take a year to complete.
The privacy implications of sweeping changes implemented before the legal review is finished worry Lee Tien, a senior staff attorney with the Electronic Frontier Foundation in San Francisco. "As soon as you're saying that the federal government is going to be exercising this kind of power over private networks, it's going to be a really big issue," he says.
Probably the most controversial language begins in Section 201, which permits the president to "direct the national response to the cyber threat" if necessary for "the national defense and security." The White House is supposed to engage in "periodic mapping" of private networks deemed to be critical, and those companies "shall share" requested information with the federal government. ("Cyber" is defined as anything having to do with the Internet, telecommunications, computers, or computer networks.)
"The language has changed but it doesn't contain any real additional limits," EFF's Tien says. "It simply switches the more direct and obvious language they had originally to the more ambiguous (version)...The designation of what is a critical infrastructure system or network as far as I can tell has no specific process. There's no provision for any administrative process or review. That's where the problems seem to start. And then you have the amorphous powers that go along with it."
Translation: If your company is deemed "critical," a new set of regulations kick in involving who you can hire, what information you must disclose, and when the government would exercise control over your computers or network.
The Internet Security Alliance's Clinton adds that his group is "supportive of increased federal involvement to enhance cyber security, but we believe that the wrong approach, as embodied in this bill as introduced, will be counterproductive both from an national economic and national secuity perspective."
Then there is the response from the deputy communications director for the Senate Commerce Committee. This response is contradicted by what is in the bill.
Update at 3:14 p.m. PDT: I just talked to Jena Longo, deputy communications director for the Senate Commerce committee, on the phone. She sent me e-mail with this statement:
The president of the United States has always had the constitutional authority, and duty, to protect the American people and direct the national response to any emergency that threatens the security and safety of the United States. The Rockefeller-Snowe Cybersecurity bill makes it clear that the president's authority includes securing our national cyber infrastructure from attack. The section of the bill that addresses this issue, applies specifically to the national response to a severe attack or natural disaster. This particular legislative language is based on longstanding statutory authorities for wartime use of communications networks. To be very clear, the Rockefeller-Snowe bill will not empower a "government shutdown or takeover of the Internet" and any suggestion otherwise is misleading and false. The purpose of this language is to clarify how the president directs the public-private response to a crisis, secure our economy and safeguard our financial networks, protect the American people, their privacy and civil liberties, and coordinate the government's response.​
Unfortunately, I'm still waiting for an on-the-record answer to these four questions that I asked her colleague on Wednesday. I'll let you know if and when I get a response.
Here is what is in the bill that is troubling:
(b) FUNCTIONS- The Secretary of Commerce--
(1) shall have access to all relevant data concerning such networks without regard to any provision of law, regulation, rule, or policy restricting such access;
The President--
....
(2) may declare a cybersecurity emergency and order the limitation or shutdown of Internet traffic to and from any compromised Federal Government or United States critical infrastructure information system or network;
.....
(6) may order the disconnection of any Federal Government or United States critical infrastructure information systems or networks in the interest of national security;
(3) FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND UNITED STATES CRITICAL INFRASTRUCTURE INFORMATION SYSTEMS AND NETWORKS- The term ‘Federal Government and United States critical infrastructure information systems and networks’ includes--


(A) Federal Government information systems and networks; and


(B) State, local, and nongovernmental information systems and networks in the United States designated by the President as critical infrastructure information systems and networks.
You can read the bill here:
http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-s773/text
This bill is absolutely ridiculous.
 
In a state of emergency the president can do all kinds of things that he has no legal authority to do, because people are scared and will let him.

One thing many people don't usually consider is that on 9/11 when Bush ordered every plane in the sky over our country grounded - the entire day, there was no constitutional or legal powers that granted him the ability to do so. Of course, nobody really questions it because most people are glad he did - but it's interesting to examine and ponder what else a president could order.
 
Even as a staunch supporter of the President, I don't think I agree with this one, granted I don't have time to read the whole bill.

I would certainly agree that we are ill-prepared for this kind of attack and should probably do more. At the same time, as I was reading the OP I couldn't help but think that someone on the Hill watched Live Free or Die Hard and was like "shit! this could happen to us!"

I think there are a good number of steps which could and should be taken long before something like this is considered. Taking such extraordinary precautions against a threat which isn't too likely strikes me as Star Wars (the SDI program, not the movies) for the digital age.
 
while definitely very black helicopter, there's no way that "shutting down" the internet is even possible. Taking goverment sites and networks off of the grid is relatively easy enough to do, but "turning off the switch" is seemingly outrageous given how many access points there are.
 
[quote name='nasum']while definitely very black helicopter, there's no way that "shutting down" the internet is even possible. Taking goverment sites and networks off of the grid is relatively easy enough to do, but "turning off the switch" is seemingly outrageous given how many access points there are.[/QUOTE]

I don't think anyone but the tinfoil hat crowd would be worried about an "internet shutdown". I think the concern would be that the President is given the power to determine what is "critical infrastructure", which could and probably would include plenty of private sector networks and sites. Even though I happen to trust the current President, that seems a bit much.
 
[quote name='bvharris']I don't think anyone but the tinfoil hat crowd would be worried about an "internet shutdown". I think the concern would be that the President is given the power to determine what is "critical infrastructure", which could and probably would include plenty of private sector networks and sites. Even though I happen to trust the current President, that seems a bit much.[/QUOTE]
Considering how Bush abused his power, and Obama seems to be following in his footsteps, I don't think it is a good idea to give him power over the internet. Whatever happened to checks and balances?
[quote name='nasum']while definitely very black helicopter, there's no way that "shutting down" the internet is even possible. [/quote]
They do it all the time in China. Of course it's possible.
Taking goverment sites and networks off of the grid is relatively easy enough to do, but "turning off the switch" is seemingly outrageous given how many access points there are.
Again, there are ways to do it.
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']Considering how Bush abused his power, and Obama seems to be following in his footsteps, I don't think it is a good idea to give him power over the internet. Whatever happened to checks and balances?
[/QUOTE]

Dude, I'm on your side of this one.
 
Really the only thing entirely unreasonable is the definition of "critical infrastructure."

Given a good definition the rest of it makes sense. There should be some kind of emergency procedure to pull government systems off the net, and if there are some systems that are nongovernmental, but otherwise tied to their systems that would have to come off too or else it would leave some vulnerability, then those should come off as well (otherwise what's the point?). There just has to be a very strict definition, which the proposers of this bill were probably just too lazy/busy to figure out.
 
Yeah, lke SpazX, I'm failing to see the opposition to this. The internet isn't a civil right. Taking down critical government sites is really a should have power for an administration of a country.

Does anyone complain about emergency broadcasts on television?
 
[quote name='bvharris']Dude, I'm on your side of this one.[/QUOTE]
Sorry about that.
[quote name='HowStern']Yeah, lke SpazX, I'm failing to see the opposition to this. The internet isn't a civil right. [/QUOTE]
Not this shit. By your logic: "Electricity isn't a civil right, the government should be able to control it and shut it down at any time." See the problems with that?
Taking down critical government sites is really a should have power for an administration of a country.
It's not just government sites, if you would have actually read what I posted.
Does anyone complain about emergency broadcasts on television?
Last time I checked, most people don't have two way televisions, or share information via televisions. Shutting down parts of, or the entire internet under an "emergency" would not be helpful. Especially if there actually was an emergency going on.
 
Bill needs more definition on what they can shut off/down if needed.

Internet isn't a right, most of it is commercially paid for.

And what happened before the internet? Life still went on.

It's strange that they didn't include cellular technologies and satellites, unless I missed that.
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']Sorry about that.

Not this shit. By your logic: "Electricity isn't a civil right, the government should be able to control it and shut it down at any time." See the problems with that?
It's not just government sites, if you would have actually read what I posted.
Last time I checked, most people don't have two way televisions, or share information via televisions. Shutting down parts of, or the entire internet under an "emergency" would not be helpful. Especially if there actually was an emergency going on.[/QUOTE]



It actually is just government sites if you had actually read what you posted. You think they are going to classify Kotaku as a critical state or federal infrastructure? Take off the tin foil hat.
 
[quote name='HowStern']It actually is just government sites if you had actually read what you posted. You think they are going to classify Kotaku as a critical state or federal infrastructure? Take off the tin foil hat.[/QUOTE]

I definitely don't wear a tinfoil hat, but even I can recognize that there is a middle ground between government sites and Kotaku. Plenty of private corporations run networks that could and would be seen as vital. I'm a staunch liberal so I have no reason to be blindly opposed to Democratic bills, but the language I read in the OP's post seemed ambiguous at best as to what sort of net infrastructure could be classified as vital.
 
spit.gif
Whatever...
 
[quote name='nasum']while definitely very black helicopter, there's no way that "shutting down" the internet is even possible. Taking goverment sites and networks off of the grid is relatively easy enough to do, but "turning off the switch" is seemingly outrageous given how many access points there are.[/QUOTE]

Yeah I'd like to see them try. Stuff like that only happens in lame movies like "The Core"

China can't even keep all of the dissent censored, and they've been trying from day one.

Technology is wonderful.
 
[quote name='HowStern']It actually is just government sites if you had actually read what you posted. You think they are going to classify Kotaku as a critical state or federal infrastructure? Take off the tin foil hat.[/QUOTE]

Do you know how to fucking read? Did you even read the OP? It seems like all you idiots like yourself and Msut do is ignore facts, and say anything that Obama and the Democrats do that is wrong, is a conspiracy theory.
 
[quote name='SpazX']Really the only thing entirely unreasonable is the definition of "critical infrastructure."[/QUOTE]

pretty much.

I can't join the rest of the paranoid folk who think that the government will take away our right to bear lulz.
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']Do you know how to fucking read? Did you even read the OP? It seems like all you idiots like yourself and Msut do is ignore facts, and say anything that Obama and the Democrats do that is wrong, is a conspiracy theory.[/QUOTE]

Idiots like myself... You're the one who continually makes mountains of mole-hills. Please don't tell me you're not a tin-foil hat conspiracy theorist.
Your avatar is supporting the presidential election of a wrestler (wrestling is fake) whose big thing is that he claims 9/11 was an inside job.

You want to be taken seriously? Stop coinciding your political views/conspiracy theories with this guy
51N4AYX9J5L._SL500_AA280_.jpg
 
[quote name='HowStern']Idiots like myself... You're the one who continually makes mountains of mole-hills. [/quote]
Sure, let's just give another power to the executive branch. This time over the internet. We've already given them the power to torture, wiretap, spy, be above the law, circumvent Congress, declare war, hell we might as well just let the president do everything! And it's all for national security! Got to protect ourselves from them terrorists and North Koreans!

lease don't tell me you're not a tin-foil hat conspiracy theorist.
Every single fucking time. It's always conspiracy theorist. Every time you want to dismiss one of my points but have no evidence, I'm a conspiracy theorist.
Your avatar is supporting the presidential election of a wrestler (wrestling is fake)
NO SHIT SHERLOCK!
whose big thing is that he claims 9/11 was an inside job.
OH GOD! HE'S THINK 9/11 WAS AN INSIDE JOB! I CAN'T SUPPORT HIM ANYMORE! Does it really matter? He was a great governor, and he actually did a lot of good things for the people of this state. BTW, many people have questions about 9/11 (Ventura says he has QUESTIONS about 9/11, not OMG IT WAS AN INSIDE JOB!1)
Polling Data
When it comes to what they knew prior to September 11th, 2001, about possible terrorist attacks against the United States, do you think members of the Bush Administration are telling the truth, are mostly telling the truth but hiding something, or are they mostly lying?

Oct. 2006
May 2002
Telling the truth
16%
21%
Hiding something
53%
65%
Mostly lying
28%
8%
Not sure
3%
6%
http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/13469
You want to be taken seriously? Stop coinciding your political views/conspiracy theories with this guy
51N4AYX9J5L._SL500_AA280_.jpg
I'm sorry that Jesse Ventura offends you. He was a great governor, and I think he would make a great president. Maybe you should just leave CAG then.
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']

OH GOD! HE'S THINK 9/11 WAS AN INSIDE JOB! I CAN'T SUPPORT HIM ANYMORE! Does it really matter? He was a great governor, and he actually did a lot of good things for the people of this state. BTW, many people have questions about 9/11 (Ventura says he has QUESTIONS about 9/11, not OMG IT WAS AN INSIDE JOB!1)
[/QUOTE]

He has said on the Howard Stern show that he thinks 9/11 was an inside job on two separate occasions. Supposedly he said it on Alex Jones show too but I don't listen to that nut job shit. Maybe you do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFIZwC6z4Kk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a72Z-THAHRk

The second one also has a nice little bit about the JFK assassination too. Right up your alley.
Him being a good governor is incredibly debatable but I don't care for that conversation.

I get it. You want to be the cool guy who "really" knows what's going on. No one is hip to what the government is up to but you.

Your faux outrage bores me. And the thing is it doesn't work on the internet where it's blatantly obvious you pick and choose which facts from your sources you share with us. It might work when you're on break at work and no one can see what you are talking about but not here.
 
[quote name='HowStern']He has said on the Howard Stern show that he thinks 9/11 was an inside job on two separate occasions. Supposedly he said it on Alex Jones show too but I don't listen to that nut job shit. Maybe you do.[/QUOTE]
You are so predictable. You just go to the "ALEX JONES!1!" excuse. You seem draw all these conclusions from the simple fact that I happen to support Jesse Ventura for president. Way to jump to conclusions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFIZwC6z4Kk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a72Z-THAHRk

The second one also has a nice little bit about the JFK assassination too. Right up your alley.
Ha fucking ha. You know, on the Kennedy assasination, I actually don't think the magic bullet theory is correct. Mainly because that is physically impossible. BTW I don't believe 9/11 was an inside job. I don't listen to Alex Jones. You seem to draw too many conclusions.
Him being a good governor is incredibly debatable but I don't care for that conversation.
Considering that you didn't live in Minnesota when he was governor, I don't care what you think of him being governor.
I get it. You want to be the cool guy who "really" knows what's going on. No one is hip to what the government is up to but you.
You sure love to jump to conclusions, don't you.
Your faux outrage bores me. And the thing is it doesn't work on the internet where it's blatantly obvious you pick and choose which facts from your sources you share with us.
I'm hiding information from you? Could it be? A CONSPIRACY THEORY!

I don't know why you think I am hiding information from you, but let's see the charges. (If you are talking about the whole Jesse Ventura believes 9/11 was an inside job thing, I'm sorry I didn't know that he said that. I don't listen to The Howard Stern show, or Alex Jones, so I had no way of knowing.)
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']a ton of stuff too mishmashed to respond to sentence by sentence.[/QUOTE]

You have a tendency to get outraged by things that aren't all that outrageous. You almost give every topic a conspiracy theorist feel. Or you jump to the conclusion that every bill passed will somehow invade our privacy more.

And while some topics are, indeed, outrageous. And some bills will, indeed, (possibly) invade our privacy even more. They are not always the ones you claim they are.

You also have shown yourself to be "selective" in many topics with which facts/statistics/data/etc you share to help support your argument. I'm not saying you are out and out lying.

I know you mean well. Honestly, who wants a more invasive government? The truth is though we have all sorts of security measures nowadays. And on top of that we probably have too much information stored on the internet. We probably should have the power to shut off internet access to certain things on emergencies. The language of the bill is a bit vague but I highly doubt we will see this bill being abused to censor or silence anyone. If Obama starts to fucking with peoples internet I wouldn't be surprised to see Palin in office in 4 years.

If there are 3 things Americans love it's internet, tv, and food. fuck with those and it's a ticket out of the white house.
 
Scanned through the thread. Here's a clue for everybody: Shutting down the Internet is possible.

Sadly, that's coming from me.

Anybody here know what level3 is? Here's a hint: 4.2.2.1.

Our beloved Internet has this thingie called a backbone. The government can make a dozen calls and ensure no Internet traffic leaves a metropolitan area. Our NOC (Network Operations Center) needs no more than a few minutes to turn off DNS servers gracefully.

The gubmint may not be able to shut your ability to hack into your neighbor's wireless network, but it can damn well keep you from reaching any news website.
 
[quote name='HowStern']You have a tendency to get outraged by things that aren't all that outrageous. You almost give every topic a conspiracy theorist feel. [/quote]
Huh?
Or you jump to the conclusion that every bill passed will somehow invade our privacy more.
They typically will.
And while some topics are, indeed, outrageous. And some bills will, indeed, (possibly) invade our privacy even more. They are not always the ones you claim they are.

You also have shown yourself to be "selective" in many topics with which facts/statistics/data/etc you share to help support your argument. I'm not saying you are out and out lying.
Such as?
I know you mean well. Honestly, who wants a more invasive government? The truth is though we have all sorts of security measures nowadays.
Many of which we do not need. Wiretapping, No Fly List, to name a few.
And on top of that we probably have too much information stored on the internet.
I don't think so.
We probably should have the power to shut off internet access to certain things on emergencies.
No the president shouldn't. The internet is a great way to communicate, and there is no reason why it should be shut off during emergencies.
The language of the bill is a bit vague but I highly doubt we will see this bill being abused to censor or silence anyone.
Let's say we get another Bush in, in 2012. Is this bill a good idea or a bad idea?
If Obama starts to fucking with peoples internet I wouldn't be surprised to see Palin in office in 4 years.
It doesn't have to be Obama. It could be ANY president. Imagine President Palin with this power. Is that a good thing?
 
^When I say "shut off in emergency" I mean a Russian hacker is acquiring our nuclear codes. We may need to shut off the internet. Maybe. It's unlikely.

If you don't think we have too much information stored online you're nuts. Everything anyone needs to become you is online somewhere.

ANY president who abuses this bill will get tossed. We DO still live in a democracy. This bill isn't for subtle censorship reasons. It's an infrastructure shut down like FOC said. It will be plain as day if it gets abused.
 
I argued over on Shimrra's blog about this. This is the action of one senator and is likely going to get shot down in the senate before it could even get off the ground. Of course, one senator's irrational fears of the internet automatically equates to Obama's irrational fear of the internet.

you know, I think I have a good idea who fullmetalfan is:
glennbitch.jpg
 
[quote name='HowStern']^When I say "shut off in emergency" I mean a Russian hacker is acquiring our nuclear codes.[/quote]
That is impossible. An order to launch nuclear weapons does not use the internet. It either comes from the nuclear football, or from a specially equipped base. It does not use the internet. Daily nuclear launch codes are kept on the president, and at certain military bunkers (where the codes are confirmed when the president orders a strike.)
We may need to shut off the internet. Maybe. It's unlikely.
Not really.
If you don't think we have too much information stored online you're nuts. Everything anyone needs to become you is online somewhere.
Does this mean we need to shut down the web because people stole Barack Obama's identity?
ANY president who abuses this bill will get tossed. We DO still live in a democracy.
It's actually a republic.
This bill isn't for subtle censorship reasons. It's an infrastructure shut down like FOC said. It will be plain as day if it gets abused.
I don't see any situation where it could be used, and not abused. There would never be any need to shut down the internet to "save it." If there is a real threat of security breaches, why wouldn't the government just shut down their parts of the internet? Why shut down private parts of it?
 
[quote name='Chairman_LMAO']I argued over on Shimrra's blog about this. This is the action of one senator and is likely going to get shot down in the senate before it could even get off the ground. Of course, one senator's irrational fears of the internet automatically equates to Obama's irrational fear of the internet.[/QUOTE]
I'm sure Obama never called for this power, right? Also, can you read? This was proposed by TWO senators.
you know, I think I have a good idea who fullmetalfan is:
glennbitch.jpg
I fucking hate Glenn Beck.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']I fucking hate that grammar error in your avatar.[/QUOTE]
I haven't been able to find the original picture on my computer, so sorry I haven't fixed it.
 
I still don't think this is going to go through.

I mean with the amount of negative press the patriot act got, if this bill was to be voted on it would cause a ton of bad publicity. Plus this bill is so arrogant about giving these powers to the president that any senator who knows of the bill would disagree with it.

And even if the bill went through and the president signed it you could still bring it up to the supreme court where they would likely rule it as unconstitutional.
 
[quote name='thwak']I still don't think this is going to go through.

I mean with the amount of negative press the patriot act got,[/QUOTE]
Well, that passed, now didn't it?
if this bill was to be voted on it would cause a ton of bad publicity.
Politicians don't care. Everyone will forget in a while, just give it time. See FISA, Iraq, ect.
lus this bill is so arrogant about giving these powers to the president that any senator who knows of the bill would disagree with it.
That sure didn't stop Bush from getting all of his new powers, did it?
And even if the bill went through and the president signed it you could still bring it up to the supreme court where they would likely rule it as unconstitutional.
Hahahaha the Supreme Court. They fucked up the 2000 election, and haven't done much about the Patriot Act or FISA. They'll do something alright.
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']I'm sure Obama never called for this power, right? Also, can you read? This was proposed by TWO senators.
I fucking hate Glenn Beck.[/QUOTE]

This "fact" that Obama called for this power is something you completely made up. Kind of makes you look like a tinfoil hat-wearing conspiracy theorist.

Sorry, two is a bigger number than one. Also, one hundred is a bigger number than two.

And for someone who hates Glenn Beck, you sure sound a lot like him.
 
[quote name='Chairman_LMAO']And for someone who hates Glenn Beck, you sure sound a lot like him.[/QUOTE]

Just because somebody hates Glenn Beck doesn't mean that somebody isn't Glenn Beck.
 
[quote name='Chairman_LMAO']This "fact" that Obama called for this power is something you completely made up. [/quote]
I must have read something wrong, according to quick google search. My bad.
Sorry, two is a bigger number than one. Also, one hundred is a bigger number than two.
You underestimate the Senate's ability to pass shitty legislation. After all, they did pass FISA, the Patriot Act, and the various war on terror bills.
And for someone who hates Glenn Beck, you sure sound a lot like him.
I don't think you know what either me or Glenn Beck sound like.
 
bread's done
Back
Top