Obama: Cops acted "Stupidly" in Gates Arrest

bmulligan

bmulligan

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Okay, I can't wait anymore. I would have thought our resident expert on rampant racism, mykevermin, would have commented on this by now and I am severely disappointed.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32122967/


The only "stupidly" thing here is that Obama made a comment about it before knowing all the facts. Being the President, it's better to reserve opinion until your staff has had a chance to advise you how to address the situation. That being said, I think Obama might be right in this case and it has nothing to do with the color of Mr. Gates skin.

I'd be shocked if the same situation didn't occur if the arresting officer had also been black. The problem is that many police officers are conditioned to use their blanket authority with overzealousness under the pretense of self-protection. It's a perfect example of how absolute power corrupts, absolutely.

According to accounts, Mr. Gates was uncooperative. And in many jurisdictions, uncooperativeness with a police officer is a crime, no matter if the officer is in the wrong or not. The crux is that police officers are coddled into this psychotic belief that they are the ultimate judge and jury of any given situation. In rare instances would a police officer ever admit to being wrong. Ever tried to beat a traffic ticket? A cops word is pure as wind driven snow in almost any court case, and this only furthers his own belief in his infallibility. This vicious circle only perpetuates itself on the street in the form of walking justice who wears a badge, a blue hat, and a firearm.

Unfortunately, this zeal to to "public good" often does more harm than good, but it's almost always the citizen that suffers, not the officer. How a man is uncooperative in his own house is a mystery to me. I can't blame the man for getting angry at a police intervention in his own home. I would feel the same way. But what I doubt is that he was unfairly targeted because he was black. It's more than likely he was targeted because he was already guilty of being a citizen which is becoming more and more equivalent to a criminal in this country.
 
whole thing is stupid, why is the president making a comment about local news.

it's retarded, I'm not even going with the PC of mentally handicapped... it's just plain RETARDED.
 
bmulligan, you've been channeling thrust and not reading the threads, haven't you? The last 83 pages of the Supreme Court thread have become the "We've locked an idiot cop and idiot professor in a room together. Let's see what happens" thread.
 
This topic deserves it's own thread so that myke can come in here and call me a racist. If you don't feed the dogs, they get crazy after a while.

But, in all seriousness, this is a different take on the Gates issue. Instead of repeating the racist arguments, I dismiss them out of hand to conclude that those we have granted authority to have not been good caretakers. That is the issue, not any implied, assumed, obfuscated, or overt racism which pervades the other thread.

Somehow I don't think this cop entered the house with an "Excuse me, sir..." And regardless of how Gates reacted, a police officer must be held to a higher standard instead of determining ANY resistance as belligerence. The bottom line is that we should be arguing police procedure instead of police racism.
 
[quote name='bmulligan'] The bottom line is that we should be arguing police procedure instead of police racism.[/QUOTE]

I agree, but did they release the reports and radio communication?

I think I heard a bit of it, didn't seem like the officer was acting out of the ordinary but it was only a partial segment.

We can't really comment/discuss it if we don't know for sure.
 
Was listening to NPR and this was being talked about. The man that was commenting on this seemed to think that people shouldn't dare speak out of term to the police. He compared it to talking to a priest or your own mother.

But i have to ask, since when is being disrespectful a crime? At the same time, why should i automatically respect someone because they wear a uniform? The cop may be a horrible person for all i know. The uniform doesn't mean they're a good person deserving of respect.
 
Well I'd go further and say that people should treat EVERYONE with respect--at least until that person does something to show they don't deserve it.

For cops, it's just common sense to be respectful since they're in a position of authority. I mean stand up for yourself if they're being a dick, but don't be disrespectful if they're treating you with respect.

For this case, as I said in the other thread, no way to form much of an opinion without hearing the whole incident from start to finish and see what led to the escalation. Did the cop say something to provoke it? Or did Gates just blow up from the outset?
 
Actually mike is already talking about it on this thread.
To sum it up the debate it's: cop was mean to a black person therefore it's racism, v.s. cops are jerks everyone that's not a hot chick so no not really.
 
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[quote name='JolietJake']But i have to ask, since when is being disrespectful a crime? At the same time, why should i automatically respect someone because they wear a uniform? The cop may be a horrible person for all i know. The uniform doesn't mean they're a good person deserving of respect.[/QUOTE]
not cooperating with police = impeding state interest = wasting my tax dollars

gates' hissy fit cost the taxpayers money. this should be allowed?

you don't have to say "yes sir" but you can't pretend they're not cops and treat their instructions as if they're burger-flipping teenagers. gates is a little prick & i wanna punch him in the face a bit.
 
[quote name='JolietJake']Actually, them coming to his home was a waste of tax payer money in the first place.[/QUOTE]
protect & serve is not a waste of taxpayer money, they were doing their job. if your neighbor saw someone trying to get into your locked house, you wouldn't want your neighbor to report suspicious activity & for the cops to come make sure that person was authorized to be there? the cops definitely should respond to citizens' reports of suspicious activity, and unless they wanna be arrested, citizens should cooperate when officers are trying to assess the situation.
 
[quote name='JolietJake']Actually, them coming to his home was a waste of tax payer money in the first place.[/QUOTE]

What? Their job is to respond to calls about possible crimes and check them out. Hardly a waste of money.

As I said in the other thread, I'd be happy my neighbor called about something that was suspicious and that the cops arrived fast personally.

Too many people don't care to keep an eye out or call in suspicious things and the cops are often slow to respond, so that would have made me feel safer personally.

Again assuming that the cop acted professionally and didn't do/say something to set Gates off.
 
[quote name='Koggit']not cooperating with police = impeding state interest = wasting my tax dollars

gates' hissy fit cost the taxpayers money. this should be allowed?

you don't have to say "yes sir" but you can't pretend they're not cops and treat their instructions as if they're burger-flipping teenagers. gates is a little prick & i wanna punch him in the face a bit.[/QUOTE]

Well, I've already said this in the other thread but I'll say it here.

Gates' hissy fit was perfectly legal. The prosecution knew this, that's why they dropped the charges. Crowley arresting Gates, after being shown proof he owned the home, for clearly personal reasons is what cost the tax payers money.
 
Guys, i meant in hindsight, you know, after the fact. Guess i should have specified that.

But yes, after all was done, it was a waste of time and money. that doesn't mean they shouldn't have, just that it was unneeded.

Being pissed off at the police doesn't mean you're being uncooperative though. Gates broke no laws, and as much as i'm sure Crowley hated it, they had nothing to hold him for.

All that resulted was that the police were made to look foolish.
 
Yep, the arrest was definitely uncalled for, as I also just said in the other thread. Both men over-reacted in this case.

And Jake, that's a silly point. It doesn't matter if it's after the fact. People were focing their way into a house, the neighbor was right to call (since she didn't recognize them--I don't know any of my neighbors at my new place yet, and only a few at the last place I lived for three years) and the cops were right to show up and check it out.

Lots of suspicious acts that are reported end up being nothing, but that doesn't mean it's a waste of money for people to call the cops and for the cop to check on it. That's their job and our job as citizens.

Plus its not like the cops get paid by call they go to or something. They work in shifts and respond to calls all shift long. So it didn't cost any extra tax payer dollars for them go go to that call vs sitting in their car or driving around etc. Now the waste of time arrest was a waste of resources with having to take him into the station and book him etc. But I don't think many people have argued that the arrest was legit.
 
Well then kindly explain to Koggit why this wasn't a waste of time or money. Because he seems to think that Gates caused them to waste their time and tax payer money.

Thinking about all of this does make me realize something. If Gates and the woman who called had actually known each other, even in the slightest, this probably would not have happened. She was a neighbor of his, correct?
 
[quote name='JolietJake']Well then kindly explain to Koggit why this wasn't a waste of time or money. Because he seems to think that Gates caused them to waste their time and tax payer money.[/QUOTE]

by stating that gates wasted cop time i was just supporting my previous claim that it's the responsibility of every citizen to not impede law enforcement
 
[quote name='JolietJake']
Thinking about all of this does make me realize something. If Gates and the woman who called had actually known each other, even in the slightest, this probably would not have happened. She was a neighbor of his, correct?[/QUOTE]

Yep. But that's just the way society is today. We're all busy as hell and always on the go (particularly city folk) so not that many people are familiar with all of their neighbors. Especially in dense areas where there are a lot of houses, apartments etc. on every block.
 
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[quote name='dmaul1114']Yep. But that's just the way society is today. We're all busy as hell and always the go (particularly city folk) so not that many people are familiar with all of their neighbors. Especially in dense areas where there are a lot of houses, apartments etc. on every block.[/QUOTE]

There is one solution to what you are talking about that comes to mind. Ever see the tv show Jericho? ;)
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']There is one solution to what you are talking about that comes to mind. Ever see the tv show Jericho? ;)[/QUOTE]
That show is great.
 
[quote name='Koggit']by stating that gates wasted cop time i was just supporting my previous claim that it's the responsibility of every citizen to not impede law enforcement[/QUOTE]
You could also look at it that the cop wasted gates time also.
 
[quote name='JolietJake']You could also look at it that the cop wasted gates time also.[/QUOTE]
nah, i really couldn't. gates wasted his own time. the cop should (as he did) investigate the situation given the circumstances & tip from the neighbor, and gates should be appreciative that they investigated, that they're doing their job properly, the only reason it took as much of his time as it did is because he wouldn't cooperate.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Well I'd go further and say that people should treat EVERYONE with respect--at least until that person does something to show they don't deserve it.

For cops, it's just common sense to be respectful since they're in a position of authority. I mean stand up for yourself if they're being a dick, but don't be disrespectful if they're treating you with respect.

For this case, as I said in the other thread, no way to form much of an opinion without hearing the whole incident from start to finish and see what led to the escalation. Did the cop say something to provoke it? Or did Gates just blow up from the outset?[/QUOTE]

See, this is what it really boils down to to me. Arresting people for being an asshole to a cop is the waste of time and money. Once identity had been established, is there some standard procedure to talk to the individual outside the home? It seems to me that this situation was determined to be non-threatening and the cop was just pissed that Gaets wouldn't do what he was told. There's this pervasive, face-saving attitude of law enforcement officers that's only usually reserved for drunk idiots at football games and bars. The only difference in the abuse of their perceived power is that they're carrying a gun and have lots of backup. Being a fuckface to a cop could just be ignored, but is more often viewed as a challenge to a cops authority and almost always results in the cop re-asserting his dominance.

The best officers I know are the ones who can be objective and not let such situations escalate into a battle of egos and power. In my opinion, cops should take as many classes in humility as they do in sensitivity training.
 
^Spot on.


The arrest was totally personal. The cop wasted the tax payers money. Luckily the prosecution knew it and had the sense to drop the charges instead of dragging this sideshow on any longer.
 
HowStern - Why do you persist with this idea that, simply because the prosecution dropped charges, no crime was committed? Charges get dropped all the time - not enough evidence, plea deals, public relations, who knows who, etc. Are you really naive enough to think that, simply because the charges were dropped, that there was no case to be made?
 
[quote name='HowStern']Well, I've already said this in the other thread but I'll say it here.

Gates' hissy fit was perfectly legal. The prosecution knew this, that's why they dropped the charges. Crowley arresting Gates, after being shown proof he owned the home, for clearly personal reasons is what cost the tax payers money.[/QUOTE]
And as already stated cops do this all the time, to people who piss them off, If a white person was calling a cop an asshole and yelling things like "I'll talk to your mama outside", the average cop would arrest him
 
[quote name='itachiitachi']And as already stated cops do this all the time, to people who piss them off, If a white person was calling a cop an asshole and yelling things like "I'll talk to your mama outside", the average cop would arrest him[/QUOTE]

That's just because the cops are so racist, they see anyone who yells things at them as black, so they arrest them...


...or something....
 
[quote name='itachiitachi']And as already stated cops do this all the time, to people who piss them off, If a white person was calling a cop an asshole and yelling things like "I'll talk to your mama outside", the average cop would arrest him[/QUOTE]

Well, it looks like you just made my point for me. Thanks :)

Like I said, and itachiitachi too, Crowley arrested gates for being personally insulted. Very professional!

Thanks Crowley for wasting our tax dollars to arrest someone because they hurt your feelings!


@UncleBob, Here watch this http://www.necn.com/Boston/New-England/2009/07/21/Charges-dropped-against-Henry/1248211015.html
It's the spokeswoman from the cambridge police dept saying the arrest was regrettable and that is why she is dropping charges.
So, I was wrong it wasn't the prosecutor who dropped charges but Cambridge PD themselves!
 
Well, to play devil's advocate and take UncleBob's point of view....

They still could have just dropped the charges as it was a PR nightmare, not because they didn't think disorderly conduct charges would stick. But in any case, the arrest was silly and a waste of time and money. Gates is a douchebag for blowing up the way he did (again unless there was something really offensive the cop said or did we don't know about), but that doesn't warrant arresting him.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']HowStern - Why do you persist with this idea that, simply because the prosecution dropped charges, no crime was committed? Charges get dropped all the time - not enough evidence, plea deals, public relations, who knows who, etc. Are you really naive enough to think that, simply because the charges were dropped, that there was no case to be made?[/QUOTE]

Something tells me HowStern was on the OJ jury.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Well, to play devil's advocate and take UncleBob's point of view....

They still could have just dropped the charges as it was a PR nightmare, not because they didn't think disorderly conduct charges would stick. But in any case, the arrest was silly and a waste of time and money. Gates is a douchebag for blowing up the way he did (again unless there was something really offensive the cop said or did we don't know about), but that doesn't warrant arresting him.[/QUOTE]


Yeah, the Dept. knew there was no backbone to the arrest. I highly doubt if there was they would drop the case because of public view.

@Camoor, your comments aren't even making sense now. How does me saying that cops should properly uphold the law and not arrest people for personal reasons(i.e. hurting their feelings) equate to me wanting to let a murderer go free?

Please, Please, Please do explain. I'm dying to hear it.


edit: I'll just leave this here
[youtube]gH6SjZ5wEzw[/youtube]
Bill Maher hits the nail in the head in that video. So does the fox news judge guy whatever he is.
 
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[quote name='HowStern']@Camoor, your comments aren't even making sense now. How does me saying that cops should properly uphold the law and not arrest people for personal reasons(i.e. hurting their feelings) equate to me wanting to let a murderer go free?

Please, Please, Please do explain. I'm dying to hear it.[/QUOTE]

OJ isn't a murderer. He was found not-guilty on the crimes of murder.

Unless - lemme get this straight - If the charges are dropped and no criminal trial is ever held, then the individual is automatically innocent. If the charges are not dropped, a criminal trial is held and the individual is found not-guilty, then they're automatically guilty.

Interesting line of thought.

OJ was just put on trial by racist white cops anyway.
 
If the police themselves drop the charges then it is because they know they are wrong and have no case.

The cops on the OJ case had a case. They had evidence. The jury ignored it. At least it seems. We'll probably never know. Have you read "If I did it?"

Just watch the video. It's got about 10 different people saying the same thing "The police were wrong"
 
HowStern - I don't think anyone is arguing that Crowley made the right decision in this situation.

However, for you to say that, because the charges were dropped, that provides proof that the accused is completely innocent - well, that's some pretty crazy and faulty logic. Charges against people who are very likely guilty are dropped fairly often.
 
That's true but in this case the spokeswoman for the Cambridge PD outright said the arrest was "regrettable." I linked to a video of her statement in an earlier post. She apologizes for the PD's actions and says she hopes it doesn't reflect badly on Mr. Gates.

That is why I say in this case it shows proof that Gates is innocent (not innocent of acting crazier than he probably should of but innocent of an actual crime.) Because the police dept. came right out and said it.
 
Being an asshole is not a crime, so being an asshole to a cop should also not be a crime. Cops are just people with badges. They are prone to make lapses in judgement. They are not automatic simon-says machines that can order you to act like a chicken and then arrest you for not clucking loud enough. The problem with the police and their attitude is that any order not immediately obeyed is called belligerence, and the courts back them up by treating their testimony as beyond reproach. They know this and it allows them the freedom to act in any way they want, whether it's lawful or not.

We've all seen the vids of cops verbally abusing and berating people, tazering old ladies, beating the crap of unconcious suspects after they've already submitted. We also are to apt to give the cops the "benefit of the doubt", right? You've heard that half a million times. Hell, I've said it myself a couple thousand. Now I think we might be better of if cops had to walk on legal eggshells while performing their duties instead of being the right arm of the justice system and a half step above the law before the case even starts.
 
[quote name='bmulligan']Being an asshole is not a crime, so being an asshole to a cop should also not be a crime. Cops are just people with badges. They are prone to make lapses in judgement. They are not automatic simon-says machines that can order you to act like a chicken and then arrest you for not clucking loud enough. The problem with the police and their attitude is that any order not immediately obeyed is called belligerence, and the courts back them up by treating their testimony as beyond reproach. They know this and it allows them the freedom to act in any way they want, whether it's lawful or not.

We've all seen the vids of cops verbally abusing and berating people, tazering old ladies, beating the crap of unconcious suspects after they've already submitted. We also are to apt to give the cops the "benefit of the doubt", right? You've heard that half a million times. Hell, I've said it myself a couple thousand. Now I think we might be better of if cops had to walk on legal eggshells while performing their duties instead of being the right arm of the justice system and a half step above the law before the case even starts.[/QUOTE]

Here's the problem, though: while I've been the person who has not given Crowley more than an inch of lenience (really, the only thing I've given him is that I'm mildly more willing to give him the benefit of the doubt in terms of racial attribution as stated in his written report than I would believe the word of the 9/11 caller), I'm about to give him another that throws a wrench in this philosophy:

Crowley appears to not have even come close to violating police procedure in this incident.

Doesn't mean I agree with what he did, and I clearly do not. But he's not violated anything, except perhaps mucking up his good standing with some citizens by conveying that you have to be nice to him or he'll arrest you on disorderly.

It's a shitty, but legal and very strict, application of the law. So you won't find, I'm afraid, anything to really pin on Crowley. And following procedural law is all that matters, really.
 
I really wish the cops would release the audio of the incident.

I'd be interested in how much Crowley actually put up with (assuming he didn't start the verbal sparring) before he broke down and pulled out the cuffs.
 
^The point is he didn't have to put up with anything. He could have walked away after he found out Gates lived there. He chose to stay. Or at least his bruised ego did.
 
There's a lot of situations where one can just "walk away". And in pretty much every situation, one should. In this situation, Crowley should have.

However, there's always a breaking point where, even though the person would be in the wrong for doing it, I wouldn't blame them for punching the other guy in the mouth.

I'd also love to hear the audio released to see how bad it was and if there are calls to have Gates removed from his position at Harvard over his behavior.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']However, there's always a breaking point where, even though the person would be in the wrong for doing it, I wouldn't blame them for punching the other guy in the mouth.[/QUOTE]

Aren't we paying the police to be above that? Should a cop pull his gun on someone because they're running their mouth? Should someone be led in cuffs from his own home because the cop's feelings got hurt?

I actually agree with bmull on this. Many policemen should get a lesson in humility. Unfortunately, too many cops equate the badge and gun with power. How many cops have sped by you on the freeway while talking on their cell phone? How many cops throw the lights on even though they're not responding to a crime? Those damn red lights are so inconvenient when you have the power to blow through them.
 
Yeah, this is really going in circles.

Colin Powell put it best when he said they were both just people in need of adult supervision in that instance.

Gates was a douche, especially for an older and highly educated person, by screaming racism and crap like "I'll talk to your mama outside." And Crowley was a douche by arresting him rather than just being professional and walking away.

There's not really much to say about the situation than to say that both over-reacted and acted unprofessionally.
 
[quote name='depascal22']Aren't we paying the police to be above that? Should a cop pull his gun on someone because they're running their mouth? Should someone be led in cuffs from his own home because the cop's feelings got hurt?

I actually agree with bmull on this. Many policemen should get a lesson in humility. Unfortunately, too many cops equate the badge and gun with power. How many cops have sped by you on the freeway while talking on their cell phone? How many cops throw the lights on even though they're not responding to a crime? Those damn red lights are so inconvenient when you have the power to blow through them.[/QUOTE]

First, I said it before and I'll say it again - Crowley acted in the wrong for arresting Gates (based on the evidence provided). Yes, the police should be above punching people in the face for smarting them off. No matter how bad the "smarting off" is (so long as it doesn't cross the line of threatening the officer or such). And yes, if one did punch someone in the face for such a reason, I would say it was wrong. I might say the guy smarting off deserved it, but that doesn't make it right.

Also, I'm not going to condemn one officer of the law based on what some bad cops do. There are many, many good cops out there that put their lives on the line every day to protect my family and my home. If one of them is out of line, then that one should be dealt with... but I'm not about to bundle everyone with a badge together and ship 'em to China.
 
The surplus of cops in NYC in general are a waste of tax payer money. And they ARE stupid, well, most of them. Anyone living in NY can attest to this. Many are racis, and also drunk on power and donuts.
 
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