Omar bin Laden
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mykevermin
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OMAR COMIN, YO!
(had to)
(had to)
[quote name='nasum']Kid seems alright actually...
Apparently he frowns upon his dad's actions but at the same time says he should have been tried instead of killed. Then again, he certainly didn't seem that helpful in the effort to turn in his dad so that's a touch suspect.[/QUOTE]
'meh. I agree with the idea, but even if he could get a fair trial in the US *or* the government agreed to let him be tried in some kind of international court, either he'd be found guilty and his supporters would claim that it was rigged against him or he'd be found innocent and we'd end up with another one of those "even if he's found innocent, we're not letting him go" situations we had last time.
I never thought for a second we'd be bringing him back alive.
Apparently he frowns upon his dad's actions but at the same time says he should have been tried instead of killed. Then again, he certainly didn't seem that helpful in the effort to turn in his dad so that's a touch suspect.[/QUOTE]
'meh. I agree with the idea, but even if he could get a fair trial in the US *or* the government agreed to let him be tried in some kind of international court, either he'd be found guilty and his supporters would claim that it was rigged against him or he'd be found innocent and we'd end up with another one of those "even if he's found innocent, we're not letting him go" situations we had last time.
I never thought for a second we'd be bringing him back alive.
dabamus
Banned
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/10/us-binladen-son-statement-idUSTRE7495E720110510
Seems Omar, if the letter is real, isn't too happy with Barry...
Seems Omar, if the letter is real, isn't too happy with Barry...
jputahraptor
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[quote name='nasum']Well, dude spells it out pretty accurately that his dad was a dick, but despite the dickery didn't deserve to be assassinated in an illegal govt operation.
If Bush had given the command to do the operation, imagine the outcry![/QUOTE]
Considering his father continued to plot terrorist attacks on innocent civilians until his last day, as well as the blood on his hands from the countless deaths both home and abroad that he helped to plot and fund, I would say a quick operation to eliminate him was the best thing to do. His guilt in so many deaths is not a gray area, bringing him in alive for a trial would not change the way Al-queda views us he'd be executed anyway and would only serve to make him an even bigger martyr. I can't believe that you or anyone else would make any illiusions that this guy got exactly what he deserved. Omar should shut his mouth and be ashamed his father destroyed so many lives and killed innocent families in the name of some bullshit holy war.
If Bush had given the command to do the operation, imagine the outcry![/QUOTE]
Considering his father continued to plot terrorist attacks on innocent civilians until his last day, as well as the blood on his hands from the countless deaths both home and abroad that he helped to plot and fund, I would say a quick operation to eliminate him was the best thing to do. His guilt in so many deaths is not a gray area, bringing him in alive for a trial would not change the way Al-queda views us he'd be executed anyway and would only serve to make him an even bigger martyr. I can't believe that you or anyone else would make any illiusions that this guy got exactly what he deserved. Omar should shut his mouth and be ashamed his father destroyed so many lives and killed innocent families in the name of some bullshit holy war.
As much as I hate what he did I really would have liked to see Osama captured. Not for the justice of giving him a trial but rather for the humiliation that a trial would give him. I don't think he didn't deserve to die but I really wanted to see him get ripped apart and humiliated during a trial only to end up being executed anyway, end result is the same. Kind of like when Saddam was captured and tried. Seeing the pictures of him disheveled and ranting like a crazy man brought me joy because it showed how desperate he was knowing what his fate was anyway.
As for his burial at sea? Meh, I'm not terribly concerned with his family's feelings any more than Bin Laden felt sorry for the families of the victims of 9/11 who never received a body to bury either. Sure its petty, eye for an eye but I can live with it.
As for his burial at sea? Meh, I'm not terribly concerned with his family's feelings any more than Bin Laden felt sorry for the families of the victims of 9/11 who never received a body to bury either. Sure its petty, eye for an eye but I can live with it.
Osama would never have been able to get a fair trial anywhere by anyone, and a live Osama Bin Laden in US Captivity would likely have been far more dangerous to us than a dead one buried in the ocean. The only benefit that capturing him alive would have had is that we could have sent him off to Turkey for interrogation before his permanent stay at Club Gitmo. Either way, the outcome would have been the same for him, so I feel it's best that it ended the way it did.
See some previous thread for how much of a Michael Moore fan I am, but this x1000:
Michael Moore's "Some Final Thoughts on the Death of Osama bin Laden" is a tremendous essay on the larger significance of the assassination of ObL, and the way that the war on terror has transformed American politics and security:
For nine years I wrote and I said that Osama bin Laden was not hiding in a cave. I'm not a cave expert, I was just using my common sense. He was a multimillionaire crime boss (using religion as his cover), and those guys just don't live in caves. He had people killed under the guise of religion, and not many in the media bothered to explain that every time Osama referenced Islam, he wasn't really quoting Islam. Just because Osama said he was a "Muslim" didn't make it so. Yet he was called a Muslim by everyone. If a crazy person started running around mass-killing people, and he did so while wearing a Wal-Mart blazer and praising Wal-Mart, we wouldn't automatically call him a Wal-Mart leader or say that Wal-Mart was the philosophy behind his killings, would we?
Yet, we began to fear Muslims and round them up. We profiled people from Muslim nations at airports. We didn't profile multi-millionaires (in fact, they now have their own fast-track line to easily get through security, an oddity considering every murderer on 9/11 flew in first class). We didn't run headlines that said "Multi-Millionaire Behind the Mass Murder of 3,000" (although every word in that headline is true). You can say his wealth had nothing to do with 9/11, but the truth is, there is no way he could have kept Al Qaeda in business without having the millions he had.
Some believe that this was a "war" we were in with al Qaeda - and you don't do trials during war. It's thinking like this that makes me fear that, while bin Laden may be dead, he may have "won" the bigger battle. Let's be clear: There is no "war with al Qaeda." Wars are between nations. Al Qaeda was an organization of fanatics who committed crimes. That we elevated them to nation status - they loved it! It was great for their recruiting drive.
We did exactly what bin Laden said he wanted us to do: Give up our freedoms (like the freedom to be assumed innocent until proven guilty), engage our military in Muslim countries so that we will be hated by Muslims, and wipe ourselves out financially in doing so. Done, done and done, Osama. You had our number. You somehow knew we would eagerly give up our constitutional rights and become more like the authoritarian state you dreamed of. You knew we would exhaust our military and willingly go into more debt in eight years than we had accumulated in the previous 200 years combined.
========================
Michael Moore's "Some Final Thoughts on the Death of Osama bin Laden" is a tremendous essay on the larger significance of the assassination of ObL, and the way that the war on terror has transformed American politics and security:
For nine years I wrote and I said that Osama bin Laden was not hiding in a cave. I'm not a cave expert, I was just using my common sense. He was a multimillionaire crime boss (using religion as his cover), and those guys just don't live in caves. He had people killed under the guise of religion, and not many in the media bothered to explain that every time Osama referenced Islam, he wasn't really quoting Islam. Just because Osama said he was a "Muslim" didn't make it so. Yet he was called a Muslim by everyone. If a crazy person started running around mass-killing people, and he did so while wearing a Wal-Mart blazer and praising Wal-Mart, we wouldn't automatically call him a Wal-Mart leader or say that Wal-Mart was the philosophy behind his killings, would we?
Yet, we began to fear Muslims and round them up. We profiled people from Muslim nations at airports. We didn't profile multi-millionaires (in fact, they now have their own fast-track line to easily get through security, an oddity considering every murderer on 9/11 flew in first class). We didn't run headlines that said "Multi-Millionaire Behind the Mass Murder of 3,000" (although every word in that headline is true). You can say his wealth had nothing to do with 9/11, but the truth is, there is no way he could have kept Al Qaeda in business without having the millions he had.
Some believe that this was a "war" we were in with al Qaeda - and you don't do trials during war. It's thinking like this that makes me fear that, while bin Laden may be dead, he may have "won" the bigger battle. Let's be clear: There is no "war with al Qaeda." Wars are between nations. Al Qaeda was an organization of fanatics who committed crimes. That we elevated them to nation status - they loved it! It was great for their recruiting drive.
We did exactly what bin Laden said he wanted us to do: Give up our freedoms (like the freedom to be assumed innocent until proven guilty), engage our military in Muslim countries so that we will be hated by Muslims, and wipe ourselves out financially in doing so. Done, done and done, Osama. You had our number. You somehow knew we would eagerly give up our constitutional rights and become more like the authoritarian state you dreamed of. You knew we would exhaust our military and willingly go into more debt in eight years than we had accumulated in the previous 200 years combined.
========================
[quote name='nasum']See some previous thread for how much of a Michael Moore fan I am, but this x1000:
Michael Moore's "Some Final Thoughts on the Death of Osama bin Laden" is a tremendous essay on the larger significance of the assassination of ObL, and the way that the war on terror has transformed American politics and security:
For nine years I wrote and I said that Osama bin Laden was not hiding in a cave. I'm not a cave expert, I was just using my common sense. He was a multimillionaire crime boss (using religion as his cover), and those guys just don't live in caves. He had people killed under the guise of religion, and not many in the media bothered to explain that every time Osama referenced Islam, he wasn't really quoting Islam. Just because Osama said he was a "Muslim" didn't make it so. Yet he was called a Muslim by everyone. If a crazy person started running around mass-killing people, and he did so while wearing a Wal-Mart blazer and praising Wal-Mart, we wouldn't automatically call him a Wal-Mart leader or say that Wal-Mart was the philosophy behind his killings, would we?
Yet, we began to fear Muslims and round them up. We profiled people from Muslim nations at airports. We didn't profile multi-millionaires (in fact, they now have their own fast-track line to easily get through security, an oddity considering every murderer on 9/11 flew in first class). We didn't run headlines that said "Multi-Millionaire Behind the Mass Murder of 3,000" (although every word in that headline is true). You can say his wealth had nothing to do with 9/11, but the truth is, there is no way he could have kept Al Qaeda in business without having the millions he had.
Some believe that this was a "war" we were in with al Qaeda - and you don't do trials during war. It's thinking like this that makes me fear that, while bin Laden may be dead, he may have "won" the bigger battle. Let's be clear: There is no "war with al Qaeda." Wars are between nations. Al Qaeda was an organization of fanatics who committed crimes. That we elevated them to nation status - they loved it! It was great for their recruiting drive.
We did exactly what bin Laden said he wanted us to do: Give up our freedoms (like the freedom to be assumed innocent until proven guilty), engage our military in Muslim countries so that we will be hated by Muslims, and wipe ourselves out financially in doing so. Done, done and done, Osama. You had our number. You somehow knew we would eagerly give up our constitutional rights and become more like the authoritarian state you dreamed of. You knew we would exhaust our military and willingly go into more debt in eight years than we had accumulated in the previous 200 years combined.
========================[/QUOTE]
Too bad this kind of insight will only disappear into the background because of who it's from.
Michael Moore's "Some Final Thoughts on the Death of Osama bin Laden" is a tremendous essay on the larger significance of the assassination of ObL, and the way that the war on terror has transformed American politics and security:
For nine years I wrote and I said that Osama bin Laden was not hiding in a cave. I'm not a cave expert, I was just using my common sense. He was a multimillionaire crime boss (using religion as his cover), and those guys just don't live in caves. He had people killed under the guise of religion, and not many in the media bothered to explain that every time Osama referenced Islam, he wasn't really quoting Islam. Just because Osama said he was a "Muslim" didn't make it so. Yet he was called a Muslim by everyone. If a crazy person started running around mass-killing people, and he did so while wearing a Wal-Mart blazer and praising Wal-Mart, we wouldn't automatically call him a Wal-Mart leader or say that Wal-Mart was the philosophy behind his killings, would we?
Yet, we began to fear Muslims and round them up. We profiled people from Muslim nations at airports. We didn't profile multi-millionaires (in fact, they now have their own fast-track line to easily get through security, an oddity considering every murderer on 9/11 flew in first class). We didn't run headlines that said "Multi-Millionaire Behind the Mass Murder of 3,000" (although every word in that headline is true). You can say his wealth had nothing to do with 9/11, but the truth is, there is no way he could have kept Al Qaeda in business without having the millions he had.
Some believe that this was a "war" we were in with al Qaeda - and you don't do trials during war. It's thinking like this that makes me fear that, while bin Laden may be dead, he may have "won" the bigger battle. Let's be clear: There is no "war with al Qaeda." Wars are between nations. Al Qaeda was an organization of fanatics who committed crimes. That we elevated them to nation status - they loved it! It was great for their recruiting drive.
We did exactly what bin Laden said he wanted us to do: Give up our freedoms (like the freedom to be assumed innocent until proven guilty), engage our military in Muslim countries so that we will be hated by Muslims, and wipe ourselves out financially in doing so. Done, done and done, Osama. You had our number. You somehow knew we would eagerly give up our constitutional rights and become more like the authoritarian state you dreamed of. You knew we would exhaust our military and willingly go into more debt in eight years than we had accumulated in the previous 200 years combined.
========================[/QUOTE]
Too bad this kind of insight will only disappear into the background because of who it's from.
Michael Moore is so far out of touch it's not funny. He might be able to get away with trying to disassociate OBL from Islam as a whole if it weren't for the fact that he has thousands, if not millions of dedicated followers who all believe in the same hard line interpretation of Islam he does. He wasn't just one guy with a twisted ideology like Timothy McVeigh, he was the leader of a terrorist network dead set on killing as many people as they can through any means necessary, all in the name of their god.
At no point did Osama say he was promoting terror in the name of the all mighty dollar, so the millionaires argument doesn't hold weight either. If Osama's ideology was "I'm going to rid the world of all people whose net worth is less than 7 figures", and all the worlds millionaires decided to form some sort of Legion of Doom based on that then maybe he'd have a point, but that is not the case.
and where in Osama's rhetoric did he ever proclaim that he wants the United States to be more of an authoritarian state? If anything, he would rather us be wiped off the planet, he couldn't care whether we were free or not, and if Moore really thinks that we're not at war with anyone or anything, he's just proven himself to be the nutcase that most take him for.
At no point did Osama say he was promoting terror in the name of the all mighty dollar, so the millionaires argument doesn't hold weight either. If Osama's ideology was "I'm going to rid the world of all people whose net worth is less than 7 figures", and all the worlds millionaires decided to form some sort of Legion of Doom based on that then maybe he'd have a point, but that is not the case.
and where in Osama's rhetoric did he ever proclaim that he wants the United States to be more of an authoritarian state? If anything, he would rather us be wiped off the planet, he couldn't care whether we were free or not, and if Moore really thinks that we're not at war with anyone or anything, he's just proven himself to be the nutcase that most take him for.
D
Dick Tracy
Guest
At least Hitler's relatives changed their 
ing names.
ing names.I don't really think Osama indicated in any way that he wanted to turn the US into an authoritarian state. Why would he anyway? His only goal was to destroy the United States and I don't buy that his goal was a destruction of the ideals of America, he would have been dancing on the figurative grave of the United States if the roles were reversed. Was it for religion, was it for something else? Who knows, and frankly who cares. This is really where I find fault with Moore's critique, if he was a "crime boss" who used religion as a cover, what was his motivation? Was Osama the generic comic book villain archetype who did bad things just to do bad things? I don't know if it was truly religion or not that motivated him but it was something, and this idea that he was evil just to be evil doesn't make much sense.
Additionally, I'm not exactly sure why it matters at all if he was living in a cave or a compound. Not only that but simply because he has been living in a compound recently that isn't conclusive proof that he spent the entire last 10 years there.
Additionally, I'm not exactly sure why it matters at all if he was living in a cave or a compound. Not only that but simply because he has been living in a compound recently that isn't conclusive proof that he spent the entire last 10 years there.
D
Dick Tracy
Guest
[quote name='dohdough']And he should change his name because?[/QUOTE]
Heh.
Heh.
[quote name='Brak']Heh.[/QUOTE]
Thank you for your insightful commentary.
[quote name='Knoell']Too bad this kind of insight highlights the type of twisting and trickery moore puts into any thing he does. The guy is a joke.[/QUOTE]
You mean besides the fact that Bin Laden used his wealth to accomplish his goals, the widespread racial profiling, reduced our freedoms, expand our empire, handicapped our economy, and a plethora of other points that Moore made? Are you saying that this didn't happen or that it doesn't count because we did it to ourselves? Or do you prefer to blow snot-bubbles to show how smart you are.
Thank you for your insightful commentary.
[quote name='Knoell']Too bad this kind of insight highlights the type of twisting and trickery moore puts into any thing he does. The guy is a joke.[/QUOTE]
You mean besides the fact that Bin Laden used his wealth to accomplish his goals, the widespread racial profiling, reduced our freedoms, expand our empire, handicapped our economy, and a plethora of other points that Moore made? Are you saying that this didn't happen or that it doesn't count because we did it to ourselves? Or do you prefer to blow snot-bubbles to show how smart you are.
The Crotch
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God dammit.
On the Moore thing:
He's a bit more right on this than some of you are giving him credit for, though he's still wrong in parts.
Bin Laden gave zero cunt-sucks about "giving away our freedoms" and all that noise. He also didn't care about "bringing down the US". Attacking the US was a means to an entirely different end: Islamist revolutions against secular regimes across the Middle East. The hope was that the inevitable American invasion would anger enough people that bin Laden, Al Qaeda, and other Islamist groups would be able to ride a wave of popular support - they, after all, had dealt great blows to "The West", whereas the current rulers were basically just sitting on their dicks.
Now, the Afghan invasion was a good deal better planned than anticipated, so no world-shocking bloodbath there, but the Iraq war was aing freebie. Still didn't work out for the would-be revolutionaries, as things got a little too ethnic-civil-war-y to really fuel a religious uprising. If there was a Step C: Crush America in the gameplan, we'll probably never know.
Now, bin Laden using religion as a cover? Well, it's feasible, I guess - there's his motivation, up in the paragraphs above - but it's an entirely unnecessary and unlikely little add-on to the story.
The "millionaire" tangent is one that I really don't feel like getting in to. It's... not particularly relevant, in my mind.
On the Moore thing:
He's a bit more right on this than some of you are giving him credit for, though he's still wrong in parts.
Bin Laden gave zero cunt-sucks about "giving away our freedoms" and all that noise. He also didn't care about "bringing down the US". Attacking the US was a means to an entirely different end: Islamist revolutions against secular regimes across the Middle East. The hope was that the inevitable American invasion would anger enough people that bin Laden, Al Qaeda, and other Islamist groups would be able to ride a wave of popular support - they, after all, had dealt great blows to "The West", whereas the current rulers were basically just sitting on their dicks.
Now, the Afghan invasion was a good deal better planned than anticipated, so no world-shocking bloodbath there, but the Iraq war was a
ing freebie. Still didn't work out for the would-be revolutionaries, as things got a little too ethnic-civil-war-y to really fuel a religious uprising. If there was a Step C: Crush America in the gameplan, we'll probably never know.Now, bin Laden using religion as a cover? Well, it's feasible, I guess - there's his motivation, up in the paragraphs above - but it's an entirely unnecessary and unlikely little add-on to the story.
The "millionaire" tangent is one that I really don't feel like getting in to. It's... not particularly relevant, in my mind.
[quote name='The Crotch']God dammit.
On the Moore thing:
He's a bit more right on this than some of you are giving him credit for, though he's still wrong in parts.
Bin Laden gave zero cunt-sucks about "giving away our freedoms" and all that noise. He also didn't care about "bringing down the US". Attacking the US was a means to an entirely different end: Islamist revolutions against secular regimes across the Middle East. The hope was that the inevitable American invasion would anger enough people that bin Laden, Al Qaeda, and other Islamist groups would be able to ride a wave of popular support - they, after all, had dealt great blows to "The West", whereas the current rulers were basically just sitting on their dicks.
Now, the Afghan invasion was a good deal better planned than anticipated, so no world-shocking bloodbath there, but the Iraq war was aing freebie. Still didn't work out for the would-be revolutionaries, as things got a little too ethnic-civil-war-y to really fuel a religious uprising. If there was a Step C: Crush America in the gameplan, we'll probably never know.
Now, bin Laden using religion as a cover? Well, it's feasible, I guess - there's his motivation, up in the paragraphs above - but it's an entirely unnecessary and unlikely little add-on to the story.
The "millionaire" tangent is one that I really don't feel like getting in to. It's... not particularly relevant, in my mind.[/QUOTE]
I think that Bin Laden's ultimate goal was a self-determined government defined by his own cultural context, but still viewed himself a member of the ruling class...a touch of megalomania wouldn't be an exaggeration imo.
There are lots of conflicting reports on the religiosity of Bin Laden, so I'm still up in the air about that one.
As far as the money part is concerned, Bin Laden lucked out in that he had his own wealth to make things easier, but if he didn't have it, there are plenty of other factions willing to fill-in that spot if it was there.
Moore has his kookiness, but like Ron Paul, they can arrive at socially equitable and responsible conclusions, albeit, for wrong reasons. Not to say that I condone either one. I think that the Moore letter is better used for introspection and that's what I get out of it. I tend to not be a huge fan of lefty celebrities as they usually don't try to educate themselves too much on the issues.
On the Moore thing:
He's a bit more right on this than some of you are giving him credit for, though he's still wrong in parts.
Bin Laden gave zero cunt-sucks about "giving away our freedoms" and all that noise. He also didn't care about "bringing down the US". Attacking the US was a means to an entirely different end: Islamist revolutions against secular regimes across the Middle East. The hope was that the inevitable American invasion would anger enough people that bin Laden, Al Qaeda, and other Islamist groups would be able to ride a wave of popular support - they, after all, had dealt great blows to "The West", whereas the current rulers were basically just sitting on their dicks.
Now, the Afghan invasion was a good deal better planned than anticipated, so no world-shocking bloodbath there, but the Iraq war was a
ing freebie. Still didn't work out for the would-be revolutionaries, as things got a little too ethnic-civil-war-y to really fuel a religious uprising. If there was a Step C: Crush America in the gameplan, we'll probably never know.Now, bin Laden using religion as a cover? Well, it's feasible, I guess - there's his motivation, up in the paragraphs above - but it's an entirely unnecessary and unlikely little add-on to the story.
The "millionaire" tangent is one that I really don't feel like getting in to. It's... not particularly relevant, in my mind.[/QUOTE]
I think that Bin Laden's ultimate goal was a self-determined government defined by his own cultural context, but still viewed himself a member of the ruling class...a touch of megalomania wouldn't be an exaggeration imo.
There are lots of conflicting reports on the religiosity of Bin Laden, so I'm still up in the air about that one.
As far as the money part is concerned, Bin Laden lucked out in that he had his own wealth to make things easier, but if he didn't have it, there are plenty of other factions willing to fill-in that spot if it was there.
Moore has his kookiness, but like Ron Paul, they can arrive at socially equitable and responsible conclusions, albeit, for wrong reasons. Not to say that I condone either one. I think that the Moore letter is better used for introspection and that's what I get out of it. I tend to not be a huge fan of lefty celebrities as they usually don't try to educate themselves too much on the issues.
The Crotch
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...
But "Canadian Bacon" was a pretty good movie.
But "Canadian Bacon" was a pretty good movie.
[quote name='dohdough']Too bad this kind of insight will only disappear into the background because of who it's from.[/QUOTE]
lol!.......
[quote name='dohdough']I think that Bin Laden's ultimate goal was a self-determined government defined by his own cultural context, but still viewed himself a member of the ruling class...a touch of megalomania wouldn't be an exaggeration imo.
There are lots of conflicting reports on the religiosity of Bin Laden, so I'm still up in the air about that one.
As far as the money part is concerned, Bin Laden lucked out in that he had his own wealth to make things easier, but if he didn't have it, there are plenty of other factions willing to fill-in that spot if it was there.
Moore has his kookiness, but like Ron Paul, they can arrive at socially equitable and responsible conclusions, albeit, for wrong reasons. Not to say that I condone either one. I think that the Moore letter is better used for introspection and that's what I get out of it. I tend to not be a huge fan of lefty celebrities as they usually don't try to educate themselves too much on the issues.[/QUOTE]
lol!.......
[quote name='dohdough']I think that Bin Laden's ultimate goal was a self-determined government defined by his own cultural context, but still viewed himself a member of the ruling class...a touch of megalomania wouldn't be an exaggeration imo.
There are lots of conflicting reports on the religiosity of Bin Laden, so I'm still up in the air about that one.
As far as the money part is concerned, Bin Laden lucked out in that he had his own wealth to make things easier, but if he didn't have it, there are plenty of other factions willing to fill-in that spot if it was there.
Moore has his kookiness, but like Ron Paul, they can arrive at socially equitable and responsible conclusions, albeit, for wrong reasons. Not to say that I condone either one. I think that the Moore letter is better used for introspection and that's what I get out of it. I tend to not be a huge fan of lefty celebrities as they usually don't try to educate themselves too much on the issues.[/QUOTE]
bread's done