Pastor Invites Flock to Bring Guns to Church

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http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/26/us/26guns.html?_r=1&hp

[quote name='nytimes.com']

LOUISVILLE, Ky. — Ken Pagano, the pastor of the New Bethel Church here, is passionate about gun rights. He shoots regularly at the local firing range, and his sermon two weeks ago was on “God, Guns, Gospel and Geometry.” And on Saturday night, he is inviting his congregation of 150 and others to wear or carry their firearms into the sanctuary to “celebrate our rights as Americans!” as a promotional flier for the “open carry celebration” puts it.

Page 1:
“God and guns were part of the foundation of this country,” Mr. Pagano, 49, said Wednesday in the small brick Assembly of God church, where a large wooden cross hung over the altar and two American flags jutted from side walls. “I don’t see any contradiction in this. Not every Christian denomination is pacifist.”

The bring-your-gun-to-church day, which will include a $1 raffle of a handgun, firearms safety lessons and a picnic, is another sign that the gun culture in the United States is thriving despite, or perhaps because of, President Obama’s election in November.

Last year, the National Rifle Association ran a multimillion-dollar advertising campaign against Mr. Obama, stoking fears that he would be the most antigun president in history and that firearms would be confiscated. One worry was that a Democratic president and Congress would reinstitute the assault-weapons ban, which expired in 2004.

But there is little support for the ban. Mr. Obama and his party have largely ignored gun-control issues, and the president even signed a measure that will allow firearms in national parks.

Still, the fear remains that Mr. Obama, and his attorney general, Eric H. Holder Jr., will crack down on guns sooner or later. That — along with the faltering economy, which gun sellers say has spurred purchases for self-defense — has fueled a record surge in gun sales.

“Every president wants to be re-elected, and gun bans are pretty much a nonstarter for getting re-elected,” said Win Underwood, owner of the Bluegrass Indoor Range here. “What I suspect is going to happen is, Obama’s going to cool his jets until he can get re-elected, and then he’ll start building his legacy in these hot-button areas.”

When Mr. Obama was elected in November, federal instant background checks, the best indicator of gun sales, jumped 42 percent over the previous November. Every month since then, the number of checks has been higher than the year before, although the postelection surge may be tapering off, as all surges eventually do. While the number of checks in April increased 30 percent from the year before, the number of checks in May (1,023,102) was only 15 percent higher than in May 2008.

The National Rifle Association says its membership is up 30 percent since November. And several states have recently passed laws allowing gun owners to carry firearms in more places — bars, restaurants, cars and parks.

“We have a very active agenda in all 50 states,” said Chris W. Cox, legislative director of the N.R.A., widely considered the country’s most powerful lobby. “We have right-to-carry laws in over 40 states; 20 years ago, it was in just six.”

Of the 40 states with right-to-carry laws, 20 allow guns in churches.

Public attitudes also seem to be turning more sympathetic to gun owners. In April, the Pew Research Center found for the first time that almost as many people said it was more important to protect the rights of gun owners (45 percent) than to control gun ownership (49 percent). Just a year ago, Pew said, 58 percent said gun control was more important than the rights of gun owners (37 percent).

Gun-control advocates say they feel increasingly ineffective, especially after a recent spate of high-profile shootings, including last month’s murder, inside a church in Kansas, of a doctor who performed late-term abortions.

“We’ve definitely been marginalized,” said Pam Gersh, a public relations consultant here who helped organize a rally in Louisville in 2000, to coincide with the Million Mom March against guns in Washington.

“The Brady Campaign and other similar organizations who advocate sensible gun responsibility laws don’t have the money and the political power — not even close,” she said. “This pastor is obviously crossing a line here and saying ‘I can even take my guns to church, and there is nothing you can do about it.’ ”

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Ms. Gersh said she was not aware that a group of local churches and peace activists were staging a counterpicnic — called “Bring your peaceful heart, leave your gun at home” — at the same time as Mr. Pagano’s event.

But news media attention — some from overseas — has focused on Mr. Pagano, who has been planning the event for a year, in celebration of the Fourth of July. Cameras will not be allowed in the church, he said, to protect the congregation’s privacy.

The celebration will feature lessons in responsible gun ownership, Mr. Pagano said. Sheriff’s deputies will be at the doors to check that openly carried firearms are unloaded, but they will not check for concealed weapons.

“That’s the whole point of concealed,” Mr. Pagano said, adding that he was not worried because such owners require training.

Mr. Pagano said the church’s insurance company, which he would not identify, had canceled the church’s policy for the day on Saturday and told him that it would cancel the policy for good at the end of the year. If he cannot find insurance for Saturday, people will not be allowed in openly carrying their guns.

Arkansas and Georgia recently rejected efforts to allow people to carry concealed weapons in church. Watching the debate in Arkansas was John Phillips, pastor of the Central Church of Christ in Little Rock. In 1986, Mr. Phillips was preaching in a different church there when a gunman shot him and a parishioner. Both survived, but Mr. Phillips, 51, still has a bullet lodged in his spine.

In a telephone interview, he said he found the idea of “packing in the pew” abhorrent.

“There is a movement afoot across the nation, with the gun lobby pushing the envelope, trying to allow concealed weapons to be carried in places where they used to be prohibited — churches, schools, bars,” Mr. Phillips said.

“I don’t understand how any minister who is familiar with the teachings of the Bible can do this,” he added. “Jesus didn’t say, ‘Go ahead, make my day.’ ”

Mr. Pagano takes such comments as a challenge to his faith and says they make him more determined.

“When someone from within the church tells me that being a Christian and having firearms are contradictions, that they’re incompatible with the Gospel — baloney,” he said. “As soon as you start saying that it’s not something that Christians do, well, guns are just the foil. The issue now is the Gospel. So in a sense, it does become a crusade. Now the Gospel is at stake.”
[/quote]

I can't help but picture Jesus with a pair of gold desert eagles.
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']Good for the pastor. It's nice to see some people exercising their 2nd amendment rights.[/QUOTE]

At a church? Do you think Jesus would've advocated bringing spears into temple? Ya know, just in case?
 
God was all about killing. That "turn the other cheek" shit..pshh..He meant "Cock your other hammer."

Religious people are good for a lot of laughs and I think this idea is great because maybe they will start killing each other off.
 
Maybe it'll turn into a Sergio Leone style Mexican stand off. Everyone in the church will have their gun out because one dude sneezes and drops his gun. Then the pastor will flip over the altar with two guns shaped like crosses and start mowing every one down.
 
jesus-gun.jpg
 
[quote name='Kirin Lemon']Exactly what I'd expect from Kentucky. Way to go, white trash![/QUOTE]
Hey! I'm not trashy! Honest.
 
I see nothing wrong with this. It's no different than Pink Pistols marching on Sunday during the gay pride parade in one of the most atrocious cities for violating the 2nd amendment (San Francisco).

Why does everything involving a lawful organization with guns and no criminal history have to be bad?
 
[quote name='JolietJake']I will now read from the book of Smith and Wesson...

....and god the Almighty Charlton Heston said "Shoot not lest ye be shot...."[/QUOTE]

fixed.
 
[quote name='Magehart']I see nothing wrong with this. It's no different than Pink Pistols marching on Sunday during the gay pride parade in one of the most atrocious cities for violating the 2nd amendment (San Francisco).

Why does everything involving a lawful organization with guns and no criminal history have to be bad?[/QUOTE]

There's a difference between marching in a parade in support of the 2nd Amendment and walking up to the front to take Communion while packing heat.
 
[quote name='depascal22']There's a difference between marching in a parade in support of the 2nd Amendment and walking up to the front to take Communion while packing heat.[/QUOTE]

Ones on public grounds without real firearms because it's prohibited by law (which is one of their issues they want overturned) and the others on private grounds where the authorities have no say over it. If they could openly carry in the parade they damn well would.
 
[quote name='Magehart']
Why does everything involving a lawful organization with guns and no criminal history have to be bad?[/QUOTE]

As far as I'm concerned, (people touting) religion has quite a long history of criminal behavior.

Did I say criminal behavior? I meant human rights violations.
 
True; and I am wholly against any and all forms of religion as it has been proven to incite warfare. But if someone wants to peacefully bring guns onto private grounds and there is no history of criminal backgrounds I see no problems with it. It's the notion of making something criminal or treating a group as criminals where nobody in any way shape or form is being hurt that leads to a loss of rights and freedoms.
 
[quote name='JolietJake']That was supposed to be a joke on how absurd guns in a church is.[/QUOTE]

Yes; I know. But Charlton Heston is the gun God and should always be referenced when speaking of guns and god. To not do this is a sin.
 
It's the hypocrisy....

The bible teaches "Thou shalt not kill"....But the pastor says to bring guns to church...The bible teaches "turn the other cheek"...Saying if someone attacks you, you let them..Remember Jesus turned his other cheek instead of fighting back...

omg at people who don't get the hypocrisy of this...

See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn_the_other_cheek

You will not exact vengeance on, or bear any sort of grudge against, the members of your race, but will love your neighbor as yourself." -Leviticus 19:18
You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Matthew 5:38-42, NIV​
Therefore people of christian religions should have no use for guns at all. None.
 
[quote name='depascal22']Maybe it'll turn into a Sergio Leone style Mexican stand off. Everyone in the church will have their gun out because one dude sneezes and drops his gun. Then the pastor will flip over the altar with two guns shaped like crosses and start mowing every one down.[/QUOTE]

Vaya con dios...

1472728095_32179bed9c.jpg

Sorry, it was the only picture I could find.
 
Mageheart, it's not just private grounds. It's a church. This isn't some guy letting a few dozen people congregate on his property in support of the 2nd Amendment.

It's a pastor saying bring your guns. Then there will be some anti-Democrat/Obama rhetoric and then they'll recite the Lord's Prayer. Do you not see the problem with that?
 
Again; if nobody is being hurt in the process then there shouldn't be any problem. I don't have a problem if the Black Panthers say fuck whitey or the KKK says fuck darky. It's when they start violence between the two that there's an issue. The right to a peaceful speech and assembly should never become a moral issue. When they say Obama will bring down America that's fine. When they say they're going to bring down Obama by any means nescessary it begins to cross the line. Do you see what the difference is there? One is just banter to bolster their positions in the congregation the other is conspiracy to commit a crime.
 
Dude, it's a church. A house of God and Jesus Christ. Bringing guns to church goes against everything that Jesus ever taught. This isn't a Constitutional issue, it's a religious issue.
 
[quote name='depascal22']Dude, it's a church. A house of God and Jesus Christ. Bringing guns to church goes against everything that Jesus ever taught. This isn't a Constitutional issue, it's a religious issue.[/QUOTE]

It's all about how you interpret the Bible, mang.
 
I don't think there's any other way to interpret "thou shalt not kill." The bible teaches against vengeance and even self defense.
 
Rednecks have a view of "Jaysus" as a gun toting, NASCAR watching, beer drinking good ol' boy. Look at most any picture of the man known as Jesus, the dude is the biggest hippie ever. Does he look like someone who would raise a hand in anger or violence?

Most of these "Christians" don't even follow the religion they claim to belong to.
 
Why is it those who seem to be the most outspoken against this are those who proclaim themselves as non-religious individuals?
 
Overall, I see nothing wrong with the idea of a Pastor wanting to hold such a sermon, if he has the permission of the property/building owner to do so. However, there's something hypocritical about the idea:

1. Churches are on the list of places/buildings that a gun cannot be taken into under Concealed Carry or and other reason (as far as I know) in 20 of the 40 states that allow CC.
2. Churches receive tax exemption from the government.
3. 2nd Amendment does not grant the right to carry loaded guns anywhere you want at the federal level.

I'm kind of curious as to why a church that receives tax exemption from the government thinks it has the right to tell the government what laws they will and will not follow.

Now, I understand that the intent is to carry unloaded guns in symbolism, and if the state this is in allows guns in a church under CC, that's perfectly fine (you get some training under CC). But to make a big scene in this manner is kind of ignorant, in a way.

In short, let's start making big demonstrations if Obama actually tries to do something with gun control, and not just assume that just because he's a Democrat that every gun owner in the country needs to hold demonstrations 24/7 because "they know" he might do something.

Here's a thought: Let's say Obama does absolutely nothing to inhibit guns in the US for 8 years. Will the gun activists say "we did it" at the end of it, as if they actually accomplished something?

~HotShotX
 
[quote name='HotShotX']Here's a thought: Let's say Obama does absolutely nothing to inhibit guns in the US for 8 years. Will the gun activists say "we did it" at the end of it, as if they actually accomplished something?

~HotShotX[/QUOTE]

Gun activists could, and why not? It's no less then any other lobbying group touting the fact that their favored position is upheld, and without a tough political scrap at that.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Why is it those who seem to be the most outspoken against this are those who proclaim themselves as non-religious individuals?[/QUOTE]

I follow Jesus' teachings without going to church everyday. I don't need someone bellowing about hell and brimfire that the Democratic Party will bring to follow the Word.

Again, this is a man of God bringing politics into his Church. Instead of preaching about love and salvation, he's falling in with the rest of the conservative gun nuts. "Therre takin' ourrr gunnns!"

The two aren't related other than it seems that alot of people that attend church fall into the conservative mind set. That being said, church should be the refuge from all the BS that goes along with the partisan bickering that seems to happen on EVERY issue these days. I could understand if he wanted to say something about being pro-life but what part of the Bible says that "Let every man walketh on the Earth packing heat so suckers will get dealt with great fury and vengeance. Let them pass judgement on any man that tresspasses against them because I was just playeth when I made the Lord's Prayer."

Let us forgive our trespasses as we forgive those who tresspass against us.

Is that not the word of the Lord? Do you guys even believe what you hear in church or do you just go because it's the cool thing to do?
 
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Obviously, there are many, many ways to interpret the Bible - and thus we have about nine million different forms of organized religion based on the New Testament alone.

As such, there are several things in the Bible that tell us that Jesus may have not been against self defense.

In Luke 22:36, Jesus tells his disciples: "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one."

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=25442
 
That article is grasping at straws. It's pulling quotes from the book of David. David is not Jesus. He had quite a few faults.

The only real argument that can be made is to seperate self-defense and vengeance.

Like this article so desperately tries to do unsuccessfully.

http://www.brandonstaggs.com/2007/07/28/christians-the-bible-and-guns-is-self-defense-vengeance/

It uses quotes from the book of exodus. Which is told by Moses not Jesus.

This article also beats the dead horse of a quote you posted from Luke 22:36 that gun nuts love to try and use.

But let's take a better look at Luke

But I say to you who hear: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,

28 bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you.

29 To him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer the other also. And from him who takes away your cloak, do not withhold your tunic either.

30 Give to everyone who asks of you. And from him who takes away your goods do not ask them back.

31 And just as you want men to do to you, you also do to them likewise.

32 “But if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them.

33 And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same.

34 And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive back, what credit is that to you? For even sinners lend to sinners to receive as much back.

35 But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil.

36 Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful.

Luke 6:27-36

Also from Romans
“Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.” -Romans 12:19

Despite what Exodus 22:2 says

“If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him.” -Exodus 22:2

Jesus himself says the contrary both in the quote from Luke above and in the gospel of Matthew

You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Matthew 5:38-42, NIV​

.
 
[quote name='HowStern']That article is grasping at straws.[/QUOTE]


Religion is grasping at straws. As your post just proved what I said earlier, there are multiple ways one can interpret the Bible - thus the multiple types of organized religion. Hell, we (not you-and-me, but "we" as a society) cannot even agree if God creating the heavens and Earth in six days means he did it all in 144 hours or not. Can you honestly look at me with a straight face and say that Jesus would be against you defending your 8-year old child from some molestery old man with a gun forcing her into sexual activities?

Even in that extreme example, I think there are some people who would fall on both sides.
 
Reading the Gospels though, 99% of Jesus' teachings are about love and understanding. Forgiveness, pacifism, and love are three huge tenets of His teachings.
 
sometimes the whole gun control issue gets brought up to distract from other more important social issues as to the why so much crime happens in the first primarily poverty & social structure, If more people would be thought to be armed and not a potential victim, people would be less likely to prey on them, (example is when a 70-80y.o. is armed and shoots an intruder seeking there Social Security Check)

Guns are just the item the Criminal chooses to use, he easily could have got Knife, Bat or broken bottle and done just as much damage. Today what should be more concerned with someone who is infected with a toxic germ and spreads that in an area like a mall or church, something we never see
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Religion is grasping at straws. As your post just proved what I said earlier, there are multiple ways one can interpret the Bible - thus the multiple types of organized religion. Hell, we (not you-and-me, but "we" as a society) cannot even agree if God creating the heavens and Earth in six days means he did it all in 144 hours or not. Can you honestly look at me with a straight face and say that Jesus would be against you defending your 8-year old child from some molestery old man with a gun forcing her into sexual activities?

Even in that extreme example, I think there are some people who would fall on both sides.[/QUOTE]

Well, I think we all know how the church feels about molestation. Ask any priest. :p

I am convinced the vatican has some scripture not publicly released that states molestation is part of their cooky religion.
 
[quote name='HowStern']Well, I think we all know how the church feels about molestation. Ask any priest. :p

I am convinced the vatican has some scripture not publicly released that states molestation is part of their cooky religion.[/QUOTE]

Even if your belief is true, I'm sure you know that not all organized religions based on the New Testament would follow such a scripture. Which again proves my point. ;)
 
[quote name='detectiveconan16']Man, if people are allowed to bring guns to church in this country, why the hell can I not own a pair of nunchaku?![/QUOTE]

Because that's unamerican.

~HotShotX
 
[quote name='detectiveconan16']Man, if people are allowed to bring guns to church in this country, why the hell can I not own a pair of nunchaku?![/QUOTE]


Just call them freedom sticks and I'm sure you'd have no problem.
 
I'm not sure if this wasn't just a brilliant stroke of advertising for this guy. His church has been all over the internet and news and attendance was up at least 33% on Saturday. Was it worth the $700 in insurance cost and the headache of finding another insurer? We'll see.
 
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