Plan to Build Mosque Near Ground Zero Riles Families of 9/11 Victims

[quote name='Clak']So? You want to show the idiots of the country that if they bitch enough they can win? Morons like the guy in the American flag hat? You really want to bow down to that?[/QUOTE]

nobody wins if the feelings of hatred between both sides are perpetuated. If you thought (and I'm not saying its so) that moving the mosque would change minds, would you be for it?

Clak and Spazx, I think you are underestimating the amount and type of person that is against the mosque. It's not just a tiny group of redneck bastards with short memories.
 
[quote name='Clak']Why would you even want to make "headway" with these people? Why bow down to ugliest side of our country?[/QUOTE]

Bingo. Some people's demands don't need to be satisfied. This is why I'm bothered that the governor of Hawaii is trying to do something about Obama's birth certificate, to prove he was born here. Birthers don't rely on fact, so combating them with facts will accomplish nothing. And worse yet, taking actions to prove them wrong dignifies their concerns in a way that is not deserved.

The concerns of the anti-community center crowd are bigoted, hateful, and do not deserve recognition, let alone any deference.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Bingo. Some people's demands don't need to be satisfied. This is why I'm bothered that the governor of Hawaii is trying to do something about Obama's birth certificate, to prove he was born here. Birthers don't rely on fact, so combating them with facts will accomplish nothing. And worse yet, taking actions to prove them wrong dignifies their concerns in a way that is not deserved.

The concerns of the anti-community center crowd are bigoted, hateful, and do not deserve recognition, let alone any deference.[/QUOTE]

This must be why you didn't choose a career in customer service. ;)
 
I don't think they're a small number of people, but I know that where the mosque is built is ultimately irrelevant to their beliefs or actions. I also don't think they have particularly short memories, but everyone does, including them, and this issue will be replaced by the next.
 
[quote name='IRHari']Explain to me why a group of people should bear guilt and responsibility, and be punished for what a small minority of their most extreme fringe does.[/QUOTE]

Are you talking about white people or rich people or both?
 
Still no response from anyone:

Explain why a group of people should bear guilt and responsibility, and be punished for what a small minority of their most extreme fringe does.
 
[quote name='IRHari']Still no response from anyone:

Explain why a group of people should bear guilt and responsibility, and be punished for what a small minority of their most extreme fringe does.[/QUOTE]

Not sure I can answer without some clarification. Does the size of the group being punished and the group being extreme matter? Or is just the principle of the whole thing? Also, does time play a factor here? As in how long ago said extreme events took place?
 
[quote name='IRHari']Still no response from anyone:

Explain why a group of people should bear guilt and responsibility, and be punished for what a small minority of their most extreme fringe does.[/QUOTE]


Why do they have to bear guilt and responsibility again? They simply have the choice to leave a sensitive area of an extremist attack alone or not.
 
[quote name='Knoell']Why do they have to bear guilt and responsibility again? They simply have the choice to leave a sensitive area of an extremist attack alone or not.[/QUOTE]

Uhh...if people don't hold Muslims as a whole responsibile for the attack, then why would anybody be opposed to the construction of a community center with a prayer room in a location that is close to the 9/11 attack?

I kinda think that's the whole point. In order to be butthurt over any construction of any legal building in the WTC area, you kind of need to have a reason. "Dems Muzlums" seems to be the exact reason why this community center caused such a stir. If it was a YMCA would it have made TV? No. It's BECAUSE there are Muslims involved in the organization and construction.

If Osama Bin Laden, and the ghosts of hijackers past wanted to build the center, then everyone should be up in arms. Instead, it's a completely different group. This is why the non-bigoted opposition theory gets debunked every time one of you guys try to suggest it.
 
[quote name='berzirk']Uhh...if people don't hold Muslims as a whole responsibile for the attack, then why would anybody be opposed to the construction of a community center with a prayer room in a location that is close to the 9/11 attack?

I kinda think that's the whole point. In order to be butthurt over any construction of any legal building in the WTC area, you kind of need to have a reason. "Dems Muzlums" seems to be the exact reason why this community center caused such a stir. If it was a YMCA would it have made TV? No. It's BECAUSE there are Muslims involved in the organization and construction.

If Osama Bin Laden, and the ghosts of hijackers past wanted to build the center, then everyone should be up in arms. Instead, it's a completely different group. This is why the non-bigoted opposition theory gets debunked every time one of you guys try to suggest it.[/QUOTE]

There is a reason, the reason is not because the guy accidently, or incidentally picked this spot, it is because he picked this spot on purpose, and despite requests to leave the area alone, he insists it will repair relations.
 
[quote name='Knoell']There is a reason, the reason is not because the guy accidently, or incidentally picked this spot, it is because he picked this spot on purpose, and despite requests to leave the area alone, he insists it will repair relations.[/QUOTE]

OK. So explain to me why he can't, but someone like the YMCA could. If you're able to craft a rational response that doesn't boil down to "Cause they're not Muslims" I'll stand up in the middle of my office and applaud.

Editing: Feel free to replace my "can't" with "shouldn't", and the "YMCA could". I can already see your response being, "Nobody is saying they can't, they shouldn't"
 
I PERSONALLY think the mosque has the right to be built there, but I STRONGLY think it would be a bad idea too. After all this reaction of planning on building it near the Ground Zero you'd think it would be unsafe for anyone going into the mosque if it was built there.
 
[quote name='Knoell']Why do they have to bear guilt and responsibility again? They simply have the choice to leave a sensitive area of an extremist attack alone or not.[/QUOTE]

They have the choice. Of course. Why state that? It's redundant, as this is the US, and they're a religion that is part of the global framework, and, indeed, one that is rooted in the United States.

But how, again, is this an issue of sensitivity? You have tried to claim that you don't hold bigoted feelings against Muslims, yet you're holding them responsible for the actions of their most extreme (and a tens-of-thousandths-of-a-percent of all muslims minority) fringe. Explain how this is an issue of sensitivity that is a burden that must be shared by all muslims, despite your recognition that they are unrelated to 9/11. Also, explain how it is that they must be the ones to display sensitivity, and not you towards the need of people of muslim faith to try to recapture public perception and recognition of their faith in a nation where most of us are deeply afraid of, bigoted towards, and distrustful of muslims.
 
Logic and reason are a car going 100 mph and Knoell is the concrete wall it hits. You can send as many cars as you want, but that wall ain't goin' nowhere.
 
[quote name='berzirk']OK. So explain to me why he can't, but someone like the YMCA could. If you're able to craft a rational response that doesn't boil down to "Cause they're not Muslims" I'll stand up in the middle of my office and applaud.

Editing: Feel free to replace my "can't" with "shouldn't", and the "YMCA could". I can already see your response being, "Nobody is saying they can't, they shouldn't"[/QUOTE]

[quote name='mykevermin']They have the choice. Of course. Why state that? It's redundant, as this is the US, and they're a religion that is part of the global framework, and, indeed, one that is rooted in the United States.

But how, again, is this an issue of sensitivity? You have tried to claim that you don't hold bigoted feelings against Muslims, yet you're holding them responsible for the actions of their most extreme (and a tens-of-thousandths-of-a-percent of all muslims minority) fringe. Explain how this is an issue of sensitivity that is a burden that must be shared by all muslims, despite your recognition that they are unrelated to 9/11. Also, explain how it is that they must be the ones to display sensitivity, and not you towards the need of people of muslim faith to try to recapture public perception and recognition of their faith in a nation where most of us are deeply afraid of, bigoted towards, and distrustful of muslims.[/QUOTE]


We have already went through why it is an issue of sensitivity, you can boil it down to deep seated hatred of muslims, and I can boil it down to people being a bit upset about people of a particular religion flying a plane into a building. Obviously the people building the mosque were not a part of that, but the religion was.

Now you will say "just because they were members of that religion? What about McVeigh?" We will always disagree. So let's just agree to disagree, I don't know who started this back up, but it just goes in circles.
 
Now you're *finally* admitting that you're okay with punishing the entire faith responsible for the actions of 19.

Defend that as an something that is not discriminatory or bigoted.

You can't just try to put up a strawman of McVeigh and then magically wish away thing by saying "we must agree to disagree." You can stop arguing because you have no case to make that your opinion is free from bigotry and discrimination, but I will not agree to disagree on this case.

Defend what you just clarified about your views, and explain how punishing an entire faith for the actions of 19 of its members is not bigoted or discriminatory. Show your work.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Now you're *finally* admitting that you're okay with punishing the entire faith responsible for the actions of 19.

Defend that as an something that is not discriminatory or bigoted.

You can't just try to put up a strawman of McVeigh and then magically wish away thing by saying "we must agree to disagree." You can stop arguing because you have no case to make that your opinion is free from bigotry and discrimination, but I will not agree to disagree on this case.

Defend what you just clarified about your views, and explain how punishing an entire faith for the actions of 19 of its members is not bigoted or discriminatory. Show your work.[/QUOTE]

Go and research why the hijackers signed up for the job, and tell me it had nothing to do with the muslim faith. Granted their actions were formed by radical muslim ideology.

Why don't you explain how anyone is being punished according to my views? Because I make a request that they respect the opinions and feelings of people who lost people in those attacks?

I know, I know it is asking too much and punishing AN ENTIRE FAITH by asking a group of muslims not to build a building on or near ground zero because it is ground zero(not even not building it, just not building it there). Muslims not getting this mosque will hurt every single muslim of the faith, and would be a detriment to the faith if it were moved two blocks south. I love your advocacy for the faith, and would like to see it aimed at more disturbing areas like countries that do not allow the practice of particular faiths. But it is ok in those countries because they have laws that say you can't. We have to stop the massive amount of intolerance here first! :roll:
 
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[quote name='Knoell']We have to stop the massive amount of intolerance here first![/QUOTE]

Are we, or are we not, the United States of America?
 
I absolutely hate how conservatives point to other countries laws and say that they're justified because of them.

Basically, because other countries severely curtail Christian activities, we're justified in shitting all over religious freedom.

Are you saying that the First Amendment only applies to Christianity, Knoell?
 
[quote name='depascal22']I absolutely hate how conservatives point to other countries laws and say that they're justified because of them.
[/QUOTE]

there's a conservative email FWD FWD FWD that goes something like "In Iran, illegal immigrants get sent to jail! In North Korea, illegal immigrants are executed! In the USA, illegal immigrants get all these benefits!" Number one, no they don't, and number two, so we should be like Iran and North Korea?

Actually, the Iran thing is not surprising, the extreme right wing would LOVE if the United States had a government like Iran or Saudi Arabia or Pakistan as long as it was Christian instead of Islamic.
 
I'm tempted to just respond to new posts by reposting my old ones from this thread. No editing, no new content, just straight copy-and-paste.

Why? Because this took place on page 4.

[quote name='UncleBob']I suppose, to put things in perspective, we need to look at what's going on in other countries.

Here, we have a case of (mostly Christian) people getting upset over a group of Muslims building a place of worship atop the ruins of the 9/11 attacks and naming it after a Spanish Christian community that was slaughtered by Muslims and where they literally built a mosque out of the rubble of from the Christian church they destroyed.

On the other hand, in Afghanistan, we have this:
http://www.onenewsnow.com/Church/Default.aspx?id=1116150



Looks like there are worse things than protesting that could be done.

Also, I'm amused by all the people who crap on any ideas of religion or organized religion, but are ready to stand up and fight for this mosque. ;)[/QUOTE]

[quote name='Sporadic']Don't like *injustice*? Well look at *worse injustice* in *random shithole*.

A) See *first injustice* isn't that bad.
B) You should be grateful you only have to deal with *first injustice* if you were in *random shithole* you would be dealing with *worse injustice*[/QUOTE]

[quote name='UncleBob']Protesting is an injustice now?[/QUOTE]

[quote name='Sporadic']Don't like *people trying to block the construction of a new mosque being built in New York*? Well look at *the Taliban murdering Christian missionaries* in *Afghanistan*

A) See *people trying to block the construction of a new mosque being built in New York* isn't that bad.
B) You should be grateful you only have to deal with *people trying to block the construction of a new mosque being built in New York* if you were in *Afghanistan* you would be dealing with *people murdering you*

--------------

Don't like *gay marriage being banned*? Well look at *death penalty being handed out for homosexuality* in *Sudan*.

A) See *gay marriage being banned* isn't that bad.
B) You should be grateful you only have to deal with *gay marriage being banned* if you were in *Sudan* you would be dealing with *the death penalty*

------------

Goddamn, that could work for almost anything.[/QUOTE]
 
[quote name='depascal22']I absolutely hate how conservatives point to other countries laws and say that they're justified because of them.

Basically, because other countries severely curtail Christian activities, we're justified in shitting all over religious freedom.

Are you saying that the First Amendment only applies to Christianity, Knoell?[/QUOTE]

Am I saying that people are upset the islamic extremists flew planes into buildings, and are sensitive about the area, and that them protesting this mosque is a drop in the ocean of religious intolerance in the world.

Or am I saying "the first amendment only applies to christianity"? :roll::roll::roll:

If you guys committed this much energy to condemning what goes on in the rest of the world (islamic, christian, jewish intolerance, to name a few) you would find yourselves accomplishing much more than not allowing people to speak their mind. Of course you will say you condemn any intolerance of any religion, and yet I don't see a 54 page thread of you guys jumping at anyones throats trying to defend a country from being intolerant of christianity. Someone in this thread or the islamophobia thread even said that christian missionaries are a form of terrorism, and I think one of you made a half hearted defense of christianity, and the rest of you shut your traps.

But christianity being oppressed needs no defense right? It IS the majority in the world....it is the majority isn't it? oh it isn't? Oh...

That referred to way back when someone said the majority needs no defense, only the minority.
 
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Your efforts to help Christianity work very well here Knoell, almost every post you make causes me to say "Jesus fucking Christ."
 
[quote name='SpazX']Your efforts to help Christianity work very well here Knoell, almost every post you make causes me to say "Jesus fucking Christ."[/QUOTE]


All I am saying is that those of you saying that "protesting a single mosque is punishing an entire religion" should channel their energy into something a little more pressing.
 
[quote name='Knoell']All I am saying is that those of you saying that "protesting a single mosque is punishing an entire religion" should channel their energy into something a little more pressing.[/QUOTE]

Ah, the old "There are much better things to do with your time that what I'm doing here." defense.

Here's why we're saying that conservatives only want the First Amendment to apply to Christianity.

Here's what would've happened if a evangelical church would've been built in the same spot. "How great that they're building something to help the neighborhood heal from the trauma of 9/11! God knows those New York City liberals need more Jesus."

Here's what would've happened if they built a shopping mall or some other store. "How great that they're rebuilding shops down there. The money and business will surely help the area recover from 9/11! God knows we need something down there to make people forget all about 9/11."

Let's take this further, Knoell. Do you believe that sushi and Japanese steak houses should be banned in Hawaii and Alaska? Should German beer gardens be banned from being a stone's throw of any Jewish neighborhoods?
 
[quote name='depascal22']Ah, the old "There are much better things to do with your time that what I'm doing here." defense.

Here's why we're saying that conservatives only want the First Amendment to apply to Christianity.

Here's what would've happened if a evangelical church would've been built in the same spot. "How great that they're building something to help the neighborhood heal from the trauma of 9/11. God knows those New York City liberals need more Jesus."[/QUOTE]

So (god forbid) if there was an attack by radical christians on an area in which quite a bunch of athiests died, a bunch of muslims, and a few christians, that muslim reluctance to build a church near the area would be met with the same opposition? Sure its true. Do I still think that the person building the church should think about his actions and make the decision he feels will positively impact people in a way that he wants. Absolutely. Would the muslims be considered intolerant and bigots? Maybe intolerant, not bigots though.
If the guy decides to build the mosque, all the power to him. I just cant stand the opposition to any opposition.

[quote name='depascal22']
Let's take this further, Knoell. Do you believe that sushi and Japanese steak houses should be banned in Hawaii and Alaska? Should German beer gardens be banned from being a stone's throw of any Jewish neighborhoods?[/QUOTE]

Here is where you get lost. Noone is talking about banning, just like none of you are talking about suppressing peoples right to protest. Yes if a lot of people are pissed that a japanese guy is opening a steak house on top of the site of the Arizona Memorial, then sure the guy should weigh his decision. Nice strawman though.
 
Why don't you mosey on down to the site of this place and tell the protesters that they should spend their energy on more pressing matters, Knoell. Because they're the ones wasting their time doing something ridiculous, or rather doing something based on ridiculous reasoning.
 
[quote name='Knoell']All I am saying is that those of you saying that "protesting a single mosque is punishing an entire religion" should channel their energy into something a little more pressing.[/QUOTE]

This is a silly claim. "You could find something better to do" is an applicable claim to any side of the argument. Why bring it up, unless you have nothing else to offer to the conversation? Is this some subtle way of saying "I'm a stubborn dude and I'm not changing my mind no matter how right the rest of you are, so just leave me alone and find something better to do so I can sit here and not have to deal with the cognitive dissonance of not wanting to be a bigot yet realizing, indisputably, that you are.

"find something better to do" can be applied to anything in life. I spent a few hours this morning playing Halo Reach. I could have found something better to do with myself.

[quote name='Knoell']So (god forbid) if there was an attack by radical christians[/QUOTE]

Stop. Deal with what we're actually discussing, not some made up nonsense. Don't try to fabricate our hypothetical opinions in response to a hypothetical situation as a means of claiming parity with your real opinion of a real situation. Particularly, when, on top of it all, you're presumption of how we'd respond to such a hypothetical event is reliant purely on your conjecture and not our words.

So take your fancypants storyline and fuck right off with it. Stick with the real world.
 
[quote name='Knoell']That referred to way back when someone said the majority needs no defense, only the minority.[/QUOTE]

That might've been me. The way I feel is that the minority typically has no voice to speak out against oppression so they need to be defended first.
 
Majorities typically don't need defense, rather they need to be defended against. Something about defending the minority against the tyranny of the majority or something.
 
Again you guys completely miss the point.

The argument that there is more pressing matters in the world was a direct result of you guys saying protesting this mosque is a detriment to the muslim faith, and punishes every single muslim.
 
[quote name='Clak']Majorities typically don't need defense, rather they need to be defended against. Something about defending the minority against the tyranny of the majority or something.[/QUOTE]

This never means the majority is never in need or under tyranny. Look all over the world for examples of majorities held under tyrannical rule by a minority. It isn't just governments either.
 
Look, I think I can safely say that IN THE U.S., Christianity is not under some sort of nefarious attack. I can't speak for the rest of the world, that's their business. Christians always have had, and most likely will continue to have a great amount o power and influence in this country, so they can stop acting like some battered victim.

If anyhting atheists should be bitching about why no one can get elected in this country without declaring belief in at least some sort of religion.
 
[quote name='Clak']If anyhting atheists should be bitching about why no one can get elected in this country without declaring belief in at least some sort of religion.[/QUOTE]

I would guess that an atheist would be smart enough to figure out that people vote for the candidate that they identify most with.
 
[quote name='Knoell']. I just cant stand the opposition to any opposition.[/QUOTE]

That makes no sense. The opposition in this case is protesting for purely racist reasons and you make excuses for them constantly. We point this out. We point out that you can't equate the actions of a handful of hijackers with billions of people that just happen to share the same religion. We do all this and you just say:

A -- It's not racist to ask Muslims to never build anything near Ground Zero. It might be insensitive but they're being insensitive to us by building a "Victory Monument" named after a mosque that was built as a victory monument to Islam's victory in Spain.
B -- If this happened in Iran, every Christian or Christian looking person would be graphically beheaded on Al-Jazeera.
C -- We're wasting our time on this issue and we should just look the other way while bigots have their way with the political and social discourse of this country.

Anything else you'd like to add?
 
[quote name='depascal22']That makes no sense. The opposition in this case is protesting for purely racist reasons and you make excuses for them constantly. We point this out. We point out that you can't equate the actions of a handful of hijackers with billions of people that just happen to share the same religion. We do all this and you just say:

A -- It's not racist to ask Muslims to never build anything near Ground Zero. It might be insensitive but they're being insensitive to us by building a "Victory Monument" named after a mosque that was built as a victory monument to Islam's victory in Spain.
B -- If this happened in Iran, every Christian or Christian looking person would be graphically beheaded on Al-Jazeera.
C -- We're wasting our time on this issue and we should just look the other way while bigots have their way with the political and social discourse of this country.

Anything else you'd like to add?[/QUOTE]

Lol

You will never get it. You simply don't agree. That is fine, I already said we wouldn't. Just because you disregard any argument as false doesn't mean that isnt how people feel.

while bigots have their way with the political and social discourse of this country
Click to expand...

I especially love that part. What are the "bigots" having their way with again? Oh, that is right, their opinion. Those damn bigots always speaking their opinion, someone should stop them!

As for you summing up my argument in three posts, I can do that too.

A. It is racist against muslims (!?!) to protest that a religion can be ASKED to keep away from a tragic area that was attacked by extremists of said religion.

B. The rest of the world doesn't matter, unless it is israel screwing things up. We certainly have an opinion about that.

C. Making sure noone has any mean thoughts here is more important than making sure noone is killing each other over there! It has to start here! If everyone loves each other here then it will spread over the rest of the world, and people will stop the REAL oppression of all types of religions.
 
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[quote name='panzerfaust']Are they building the mosque or no? The news just kind of stopped updating me on this. Sorry for the stupid question.[/QUOTE]

He is currently raising the money to build it.
 
[quote name='Knoell']Lol

You will never get it. You simply don't agree. That is fine, I already said we wouldn't. Just because you disregard any argument as false doesn't mean that isnt how people feel.



I especially love that part. What are the "bigots" having their way with again? Oh, that is right, their opinion. Those damn bigots always speaking their opinion, someone should stop them!

As for you summing up my argument in three posts, I can do that too.

A. It is racist against muslims (!?!) to protest that a religion can be ASKED to keep away from a tragic area that was attacked by extremists of said religion.

B. The rest of the world doesn't matter, unless it is israel screwing things up. We certainly have an opinion about that.

C. Making sure noone has any mean thoughts here is more important than making sure noone is killing each other over there! It has to start here! If everyone loves each other here then it will spread over the rest of the world, and people will stop the REAL oppression of all types of religions.[/QUOTE]
Holy shit! Did you know there's a MUSLIM food truck by GROUND ZERO? We need to KICK HIS ALLAH-LOVING ASS OUTTA THERE! HAS HE NO SENSE OF SHAME!!!111!!

Moran.:roll:
 
Who gives a shit about Israel when it comes to this matter, Knoell?

Also, since when do conservatives give two fucks how people feel? Bring up something about political correctness and the right groans and gnashes it's teeth. Don't act like you give a fat fuck about anybody but yourselves.

You are equating the actions of a small groups of terrorists that planned and operated in secret with every follower of a religion for the sole fact that they share the same religion. This didn't happen in the Catholic Church molestation scandal. Why should it happen now other than most Muslims are of a browner hue? Why Muslims and not Catholics?
 
I have already asked this before and you guys said it doesn't count but you brought it up....Would you be mad if a catholic church of a denomination that had no molestation charges built a church next to a molestation victim because of the proximity to the molestation victim and wanted the victim to know that not all priests do that type of thing? I certainly would, and I would certainly understand the victims feelings on the matter.

The catholic church does not HAVE to build there to practice its faith, and it is perfectly reasonable for someone to ask them to give the sensitive area some room. Same goes for the mosque.

Should anyone force either one to not build there? Certainly not. Do they still have a right to practice their religion? Certainly.
 
I'm sure glad Christians don't do anything bad ever. That's why we let them build churches wherever they want. You can afford that kind of freedom when you are the only religious sect full of charitable, pure, moral, law-abiding citizens who pay their taxes, never swear, always help the poor, and have the one true capital G God on your side, and ONLY on your side.

Gosh, it's a wonder there are even other religions in this world, what with Christians batting a thousand in the chaste exemplar human beings category. They got that locked down. It's why they softly glow in the dark and emit vanilla scented farts.

Suuuuuuuuuuuuuure glad not a single person in their entire storied pristine history never did a single thing even remotely out of line. Laugh at Ned Flanders all you want, but minus that one outburst at the town, he's the ONLY Christian EVER to do ANYTHING wrong.
 
[quote name='Knoell']I have already asked this before and you guys said it doesn't count but you brought it up....Would you be mad if a catholic church of a denomination that had no molestation charges built a church next to a molestation victim because of the proximity to the molestation victim and wanted the victim to know that not all priests do that type of thing? I certainly would, and I would certainly understand the victims feelings on the matter.

The catholic church does not HAVE to build there to practice its faith, and it is perfectly reasonable for someone to ask them to give the sensitive area some room. Same goes for the mosque.

Should anyone force either one to not build there? Certainly not. Do they still have a right to practice their religion? Certainly.[/QUOTE]

Why, instead, since you want to paint this issue as one of insensitivity, try to compare it to something in the real world? Why not equate (and I'm shocked this hasn't been done more frequently) it w/ the Westboro Baptist Church?
 
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