Yep, they're baking cup cakes alright. lol
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/...ist-bake-sale-protested_n_984049.html#s375885
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/...ist-bake-sale-protested_n_984049.html#s375885
Racist Cup Cake Sale!
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zionoverfire
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I remember when Indiana University had one of these way back in 2003, it's quite impressive how worked up people get.
[quote name='Msut77']Con groups have been performing this real life trolling for about 25 years.[/QUOTE]
Pretty much that.
The irony is that if the UC system was truly "meritocratic" like the CR's think is should be, the Asian population would actually be closer to 60% instead of 40% as Asians need higher test scores and grades than everyone else. Funny how that works because these white kids are benefiting from the program that they're against because they think it's hurting them. LOLOLOLOLZ
Pretty much that.
The irony is that if the UC system was truly "meritocratic" like the CR's think is should be, the Asian population would actually be closer to 60% instead of 40% as Asians need higher test scores and grades than everyone else. Funny how that works because these white kids are benefiting from the program that they're against because they think it's hurting them. LOLOLOLOLZ
cochesecochese
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Soooooo it looks like they got media coverage. You know, exactly what they wanted.
Way to go HP.
Way to go HP.
If you think these things through logically, pretty much every reason/justification falls apart, so I don't feel much need to really examine anything.
The best way to handle these things is like my friend did for a similar student Republican group that was protesting at A&M against gay marriage. He's fairly left leaning and was heading to class when one of the Republican kids stopped him for an interview. He subtly trolled the shit out of them so well that his interview appeared in the student paper, complete with him saying outrageous things that - upon closer inspection - were loafers of intense sarcasm.
Oddly enough, that same guy just started at Berkley a few weeks ago. I should ask him about this.
The best way to handle these things is like my friend did for a similar student Republican group that was protesting at A&M against gay marriage. He's fairly left leaning and was heading to class when one of the Republican kids stopped him for an interview. He subtly trolled the shit out of them so well that his interview appeared in the student paper, complete with him saying outrageous things that - upon closer inspection - were loafers of intense sarcasm.
Oddly enough, that same guy just started at Berkley a few weeks ago. I should ask him about this.
Trancendental
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It's got to be lonely being a Republican at UC Berkeley, but this is probably not the best way to make friends.
Maybe next they'll do a Nepotism Cup Cake Sale. Free cupcakes if your father is a mega donor to the university. Triple the price if the only person you can name drop is Prez Obama.
They definitely lose points for unoriginality. I've heard of this happening like 10 or 11 times in the past decade.
They definitely lose points for unoriginality. I've heard of this happening like 10 or 11 times in the past decade.
soulvengeance
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[quote name='UncleBob']It's not racist - because it gives an advantage to minorities who get cheaper cupcakes.[/QUOTE]
The problem is, Asians don't get an advantage, so they got it wrong. Whoops, saw dohdough got to it before I did.
The problem is, Asians don't get an advantage, so they got it wrong. Whoops, saw dohdough got to it before I did.
Lightning War
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[quote name='UncleBob']
If the opponents of this event were smart, they would have had a female Native American come in and get all the cupcakes for free. All of them.[/QUOTE]
Quite possibly the best idea ever.
If the opponents of this event were smart, they would have had a female Native American come in and get all the cupcakes for free. All of them.[/QUOTE]
Quite possibly the best idea ever.
soulvengeance
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[quote name='UncleBob']Asians did get an advantage - 50 cents off.
If the opponents of this event were smart, they would have had a female Native American come in and get all the cupcakes for free. All of them.[/QUOTE]
What I'm saying is they don't get an advantage in real life. They should be at the top, not white. Like doughdoh said, the enrollment would skew to even more Asians, and still the same amount of whites, with the other minorities taking the biggest hit.
If the opponents of this event were smart, they would have had a female Native American come in and get all the cupcakes for free. All of them.[/QUOTE]
What I'm saying is they don't get an advantage in real life. They should be at the top, not white. Like doughdoh said, the enrollment would skew to even more Asians, and still the same amount of whites, with the other minorities taking the biggest hit.
Dr Mario Kart
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The counter bake sale could look like this. All the baked goods are the same price, but there is simply a sign next to the table with various statistics on it. Something like, we hired these various people to make these cupcakes, with their pay listed, showing the racial and gender disparity in pay. Or listing applicants and showing the disparity in call back rates despite equal qualifications.
panzerfaust
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i thought these people would cease to exist and we we're simply waiting for the next generation to fix this country...
i should go to my republican campus organization and see what's going through their heads as well
i should go to my republican campus organization and see what's going through their heads as well
victimsofadown
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It's unoriginal, but what's wrong with it?
It's intentionally offensive to make a point; that people should be treated equally.
What am I missing?
It's intentionally offensive to make a point; that people should be treated equally.
What am I missing?
Trancendental
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[quote name='victimsofadown']It's unoriginal, but what's wrong with it?
It's intentionally offensive to make a point; that people should be treated equally.
What am I missing?[/QUOTE]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CmzT4OV-w0
It's intentionally offensive to make a point; that people should be treated equally.
What am I missing?[/QUOTE]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CmzT4OV-w0
victimsofadown
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...so what I'm missing is that "white people just don't understand?"
Seems completely logical.
Seems completely logical.
[quote name='victimsofadown']It's unoriginal, but what's wrong with it?
It's intentionally offensive to make a point; that people should be treated equally.
What am I missing?[/QUOTE]
[quote name='victimsofadown']...so what I'm missing is that "white people just don't understand?"
Seems completely logical.[/QUOTE]
You pretty much answered your own question in shorthand.
The longer answer is that while everyone being treated equally is a nice ideal, it is the furthest thing from being practical until we have equal starting points, equal living conditions, and equal outcomes. The students that organized the racist bake sale might've been saying that people should be treated equally on the surface, but what their version of equality would mean is that people would get treated the same as now: unequally. Colorblindness doesn't solve racism on an institutional/systemic level; it further entrenches it. Things like whites having 20x the weath of black familes, black men being stopped by police at 7x the rates of whites, back people receiving harsher and longer sentences than whites for similar crimes, and various other inequities that are rooted in centuries of oppression, racism, and slavery. Instituting the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and affirmative action doesn't magically reverse the outcomes of those events, just as allowing a few Native American tribes to build casinos or live tax-free magically bring them all out of poverty.
And let's take a look at the framework of the student group itself: that white people have to pay more to get access to the cupcakes. This is a false premise on any level you can think of ESPECIALLY at UC Berkeley. Affirmative action in the form of quotas was made illegal and never really existed, but that ruling pretty much instituted a colorblind policy, which doesn't work out that way anyways because it wasn't really implemented that way in the UC system. What happened was that white students benefitted from that ruling while Asian, Latinos, and black students saw lower enrollment rates, but that isn't because white students had better grades, activities, etc. Asian students actually had better scores and thus required higher grades/scores to get in. What this means is that aside from the societal affirmative action that the white students recieved, that they also benefitted from affirmative action while getting into UC Berkeley. So if anything, if you were Asian, you should've needed to pay more than if you were white.
tl;dr: watch the Louis CK video until you get it.
It's intentionally offensive to make a point; that people should be treated equally.
What am I missing?[/QUOTE]
[quote name='victimsofadown']...so what I'm missing is that "white people just don't understand?"
Seems completely logical.[/QUOTE]
You pretty much answered your own question in shorthand.
The longer answer is that while everyone being treated equally is a nice ideal, it is the furthest thing from being practical until we have equal starting points, equal living conditions, and equal outcomes. The students that organized the racist bake sale might've been saying that people should be treated equally on the surface, but what their version of equality would mean is that people would get treated the same as now: unequally. Colorblindness doesn't solve racism on an institutional/systemic level; it further entrenches it. Things like whites having 20x the weath of black familes, black men being stopped by police at 7x the rates of whites, back people receiving harsher and longer sentences than whites for similar crimes, and various other inequities that are rooted in centuries of oppression, racism, and slavery. Instituting the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and affirmative action doesn't magically reverse the outcomes of those events, just as allowing a few Native American tribes to build casinos or live tax-free magically bring them all out of poverty.
And let's take a look at the framework of the student group itself: that white people have to pay more to get access to the cupcakes. This is a false premise on any level you can think of ESPECIALLY at UC Berkeley. Affirmative action in the form of quotas was made illegal and never really existed, but that ruling pretty much instituted a colorblind policy, which doesn't work out that way anyways because it wasn't really implemented that way in the UC system. What happened was that white students benefitted from that ruling while Asian, Latinos, and black students saw lower enrollment rates, but that isn't because white students had better grades, activities, etc. Asian students actually had better scores and thus required higher grades/scores to get in. What this means is that aside from the societal affirmative action that the white students recieved, that they also benefitted from affirmative action while getting into UC Berkeley. So if anything, if you were Asian, you should've needed to pay more than if you were white.
tl;dr: watch the Louis CK video until you get it.
victimsofadown
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I understand where you guys are coming from, but saying that equality can only come from not being colorblind is kind of a strange stance, yaknow?
Obviously I can only speak through my own paradigm, but I am not a racist, so for me it makes sense that everyone should be treated equally. I think what you are saying is that it is impossible for everyone to be treated equally (at least currently), so we have to make special accomodations to ensure that everyone is treated equally? I just don't agree with that.
But hey, as stated above, white people just don't understand.
Obviously I can only speak through my own paradigm, but I am not a racist, so for me it makes sense that everyone should be treated equally. I think what you are saying is that it is impossible for everyone to be treated equally (at least currently), so we have to make special accomodations to ensure that everyone is treated equally? I just don't agree with that.
But hey, as stated above, white people just don't understand.
[quote name='victimsofadown']I understand where you guys are coming from, but saying that equality can only come from not being colorblind is kind of a strange stance, yaknow?
Obviously I can only speak through my own paradigm, but I am not a racist, so for me it makes sense that everyone should be treated equally. I think what you are saying is that it is impossible for everyone to be treated equally (at least currently), so we have to make special accomodations to ensure that everyone is treated equally? I just don't agree with that.
But hey, as stated above, white people just don't understand.[/QUOTE]
The problem is that one group of people HAVE been treated specially and they've been treated specially for so long and others treated as less than special that people consider it normal. So when the non-special people ask to be treated with the same level of speciality as those already given advantages, we have conflicts such as the one you describe you have.
Race actually means something and is a big determinate on one's options in life. Pretending that race doesn't exist only serves to benefit those that already benefit from it.
Here's an easy to understand cartoon:
And since I know the typical answer to this, here's another pre-emptive easy to understand cartoon:
Obviously I can only speak through my own paradigm, but I am not a racist, so for me it makes sense that everyone should be treated equally. I think what you are saying is that it is impossible for everyone to be treated equally (at least currently), so we have to make special accomodations to ensure that everyone is treated equally? I just don't agree with that.
But hey, as stated above, white people just don't understand.[/QUOTE]
The problem is that one group of people HAVE been treated specially and they've been treated specially for so long and others treated as less than special that people consider it normal. So when the non-special people ask to be treated with the same level of speciality as those already given advantages, we have conflicts such as the one you describe you have.
Race actually means something and is a big determinate on one's options in life. Pretending that race doesn't exist only serves to benefit those that already benefit from it.
Here's an easy to understand cartoon:
And since I know the typical answer to this, here's another pre-emptive easy to understand cartoon:
victimsofadown
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[quote name='Msut77']Why?[/QUOTE]
In my opinion treating people differently, regardless of the reasoning, is what leads to continued racism. It seems like if race is always a factor (even if the intentions are good) that race will continue to be an issue in day-to-day life. Maybe it isn't realistic, but it seems to me that COMPLETELY ignoring race as a criterium for anything is the only thing that will lead to people being treated equally.
In my opinion treating people differently, regardless of the reasoning, is what leads to continued racism. It seems like if race is always a factor (even if the intentions are good) that race will continue to be an issue in day-to-day life. Maybe it isn't realistic, but it seems to me that COMPLETELY ignoring race as a criterium for anything is the only thing that will lead to people being treated equally.
Trancendental
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[quote name='UncleBob']I have to say, overall, I'm glad we don't live in a country where a son has to pay for the sins of the father.[/QUOTE]
Would be nice if you could think of someone other then you and your fellow tea-partiers for once. For once.
Would be nice if you could think of someone other then you and your fellow tea-partiers for once. For once.
[quote name='UncleBob']I have to say, overall, I'm glad we don't live in a country where a son has to pay for the sins of the father.[/QUOTE]
Of course you'd say that. Just because you didn't do anything doesn't mean you don't benefit from it or that others aren't harmed by it.
Either way, it's a huge strawman when you know I'm talking about racism on a systemic level.
[quote name='victimsofadown']In my opinion treating people differently, regardless of the reasoning, is what leads to continued racism. It seems like if race is always a factor (even if the intentions are good) that race will continue to be an issue in day-to-day life. Maybe it isn't realistic, but it seems to me that COMPLETELY ignoring race as a criterium for anything is the only thing that will lead to people being treated equally.[/QUOTE]
Addressing the inequities of societydue to race does not perpetuate racism; ignoring it actually does. There's nothing wrong with talking about or addressing race as the country, among others, was literally built on it. Nothing is ever solved by ignoring any issue.
Another reason why colorblindness doesn't work is because we've developed an entirely new vocabulary to talk about race without directly addressing it. Words like culture, socio-economic, urban, low-income, etc are part of our current lexicon. There are strong racial components and implications to those terms, so either way, you're still talking about race.
Of course you'd say that. Just because you didn't do anything doesn't mean you don't benefit from it or that others aren't harmed by it.
Either way, it's a huge strawman when you know I'm talking about racism on a systemic level.
[quote name='victimsofadown']In my opinion treating people differently, regardless of the reasoning, is what leads to continued racism. It seems like if race is always a factor (even if the intentions are good) that race will continue to be an issue in day-to-day life. Maybe it isn't realistic, but it seems to me that COMPLETELY ignoring race as a criterium for anything is the only thing that will lead to people being treated equally.[/QUOTE]
Addressing the inequities of societydue to race does not perpetuate racism; ignoring it actually does. There's nothing wrong with talking about or addressing race as the country, among others, was literally built on it. Nothing is ever solved by ignoring any issue.
Another reason why colorblindness doesn't work is because we've developed an entirely new vocabulary to talk about race without directly addressing it. Words like culture, socio-economic, urban, low-income, etc are part of our current lexicon. There are strong racial components and implications to those terms, so either way, you're still talking about race.
Soodmeg
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I want to tell you guys this so that you understand something and further explain what dohdough is saying.
I am black, I am sure you knew this already, my father....and pay attention to this...my FATHER, not great great grandfather my still living father is and as always been a police officer. He remembers a large portion of time in which he wasnt even allowed to ARREST white people for any reason. If he saw a white person breaking the law he would have to inform a white officer to handle it. As a result he witnessed many many minor to serious criminals go free if he couldnt find a white officer fast enough. This was compounded with the fact that many of his official statements were thrown out because lets face it...a $$$$er with a badge is still a $$$$er. (This also is the reason why minorities dislike cops of their own decent because they only saw them arresting other minorities so they were deemed sell outs and house $$$$as)
My mother in law (who is white) remembers when her high school got desegregated.
My best friends father was expelled from his high school after bashing the head of a KKK members son in with a tree branch when they were trying to impress their dad by lynching him....like father like son.
I want you let that sink in especially you Bob. Because one of the things that makes minorities really just want to flip on white people is the constant exaggeration of how long ago racially motivated situation were. You try to pretend like these things happened only in history books when there are millions of people walking around who activity participated in intentional or unintentional.
I am largely critical of minorities who lean on racism cards to much because I personally believe the only way to overcome is to try that much harder. It still doesnt give you a free pass to think that just because you are not racist it hasnt largely benefited you while simultaneously limiting the success of everyone around you.
One more thing and I want to direct this to Bob my father has a book of names. These are the names of people who "got away," people he witnessed breaking the law and couldnt arrest. Years later he looked up information for most of the people on the list. Many of them are averages joe with families now. One guy is a well off doctor who has kids and also works with many small children. This same guy my father witnessed paying a hooker....then after they were done...beating up the hooker...then robbing the hooker. His son will probably go off and continue the cycle of wealth when in reality he probably shouldnt even exist since his father most likely wouldnt have met his mother in prison.
Yay...its super fun to pretend that no one benefits from race discrimination when you just so happen to be the right color especially after already cashing in all the rewards.
I am black, I am sure you knew this already, my father....and pay attention to this...my FATHER, not great great grandfather my still living father is and as always been a police officer. He remembers a large portion of time in which he wasnt even allowed to ARREST white people for any reason. If he saw a white person breaking the law he would have to inform a white officer to handle it. As a result he witnessed many many minor to serious criminals go free if he couldnt find a white officer fast enough. This was compounded with the fact that many of his official statements were thrown out because lets face it...a $$$$er with a badge is still a $$$$er. (This also is the reason why minorities dislike cops of their own decent because they only saw them arresting other minorities so they were deemed sell outs and house $$$$as)
My mother in law (who is white) remembers when her high school got desegregated.
My best friends father was expelled from his high school after bashing the head of a KKK members son in with a tree branch when they were trying to impress their dad by lynching him....like father like son.
I want you let that sink in especially you Bob. Because one of the things that makes minorities really just want to flip on white people is the constant exaggeration of how long ago racially motivated situation were. You try to pretend like these things happened only in history books when there are millions of people walking around who activity participated in intentional or unintentional.
I am largely critical of minorities who lean on racism cards to much because I personally believe the only way to overcome is to try that much harder. It still doesnt give you a free pass to think that just because you are not racist it hasnt largely benefited you while simultaneously limiting the success of everyone around you.
One more thing and I want to direct this to Bob my father has a book of names. These are the names of people who "got away," people he witnessed breaking the law and couldnt arrest. Years later he looked up information for most of the people on the list. Many of them are averages joe with families now. One guy is a well off doctor who has kids and also works with many small children. This same guy my father witnessed paying a hooker....then after they were done...beating up the hooker...then robbing the hooker. His son will probably go off and continue the cycle of wealth when in reality he probably shouldnt even exist since his father most likely wouldnt have met his mother in prison.
Yay...its super fun to pretend that no one benefits from race discrimination when you just so happen to be the right color especially after already cashing in all the rewards.
victimsofadown
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I see where both of you are coming from, and you're right about not thinking about segretation as being recent (I'm 25, and obviously I haven't seen the things you describe).
But back on topic, and I'm starting to lean toward "agree to disagree" status, I don't understand how taking race into account is OK. It wasn't OK for whites to enslave blacks. More to the point: it's not OK to have a police officer stand-by and watch as crimes are committed in "modern times."
I don't think that taking race into account on applications for schools is just. Unless the reasoning is to make up for previous wrongdoings (which I also disagree with) I can't figure out why it should be allowed. Merits are merits, and while there may be other factors and other parts of society where this is not the case college applications should be considered on the grades and scores of the applicant.
I also disagree with the current system of college applications that offers preferences to those who live in a certain region, have attended a community college, etc. and I have benefitted from all of these things.
If they were RELATED events then I might agree with them, such as receiving a bonus for working in a related field, or doing research in the field, or attending a certification program. Something like that makes sense.
The fact that I am preferred over a student with identical grades because I live 40 miles away and they live down the street is asinine.
But back on topic, and I'm starting to lean toward "agree to disagree" status, I don't understand how taking race into account is OK. It wasn't OK for whites to enslave blacks. More to the point: it's not OK to have a police officer stand-by and watch as crimes are committed in "modern times."
I don't think that taking race into account on applications for schools is just. Unless the reasoning is to make up for previous wrongdoings (which I also disagree with) I can't figure out why it should be allowed. Merits are merits, and while there may be other factors and other parts of society where this is not the case college applications should be considered on the grades and scores of the applicant.
I also disagree with the current system of college applications that offers preferences to those who live in a certain region, have attended a community college, etc. and I have benefitted from all of these things.
If they were RELATED events then I might agree with them, such as receiving a bonus for working in a related field, or doing research in the field, or attending a certification program. Something like that makes sense.
The fact that I am preferred over a student with identical grades because I live 40 miles away and they live down the street is asinine.
Trancendental
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[quote name='victimsofadown']Maybe it isn't realistic, but it seems to me that COMPLETELY ignoring race as a criterium for anything is the only thing that will lead to people being treated equally.[/QUOTE]
Two for two. You're really good at answering your own questions.
Two for two. You're really good at answering your own questions.
the world according to dohdough:
Tiger Woods is a great golfer because he's white and to ensure that a non-white golfer is as good they'll have to start from the same place (the first hole?) and expect to have the same score (equal outcome) by the last hole, despite of any consideratino for natural or exceptional ability.
Let's take the silly part out of that and go this route, despite a few years in age and him living in a different state for the first couple of years, my brother and I have had ALMOST EXACT conditions since birth. I'm farther laong in life than he is, despite being the younger one, becuase I did things differently. So, am I whiter?
Any time a minority has success, it's defined as an anomaly.
Any time a white person has success it's because the system is geared in their favour.
Any time a minority fails, it's due to the systemic racism that sets up nothing but roadblocks.
Any time a white person fails, it's because that person is a failure.
So, if you're a minority, tough bunnies about that whole "world set against you thing", better luck in the next life!
Such hope that lends to anyone. Take pride in your poverty and god forbid don't be a "tom" because, while you may end up outside of your impoverished hell, then you'll still be a minority but then "your own kind" will distrust you as well...
Notice how it's all bullshit excuses? Yeah, it sucks to be black, but only because that gives you a statistically higher chance to be born into a shitty situation than some white kid in the suburbs. Just like it sucks to be born white in a shitty area, like a chunk of Bosnia that hasn't been rebuilt yet or something to that effect.
Of course, going along with this equal start/middle/finish nonsense, what if someone is born with Down's Syndrome? Even in an affluent area? Should Trig Palin expect the same outcome as dohdough? I mean afterall, we're all precious snowflakes that deserve the greatest things in the world no? But only if they're not made by an evil corporation that exploits resources!
tl:dr
I guess Harrison Bergeron is a good thing?
Tiger Woods is a great golfer because he's white and to ensure that a non-white golfer is as good they'll have to start from the same place (the first hole?) and expect to have the same score (equal outcome) by the last hole, despite of any consideratino for natural or exceptional ability.
Let's take the silly part out of that and go this route, despite a few years in age and him living in a different state for the first couple of years, my brother and I have had ALMOST EXACT conditions since birth. I'm farther laong in life than he is, despite being the younger one, becuase I did things differently. So, am I whiter?
Any time a minority has success, it's defined as an anomaly.
Any time a white person has success it's because the system is geared in their favour.
Any time a minority fails, it's due to the systemic racism that sets up nothing but roadblocks.
Any time a white person fails, it's because that person is a failure.
So, if you're a minority, tough bunnies about that whole "world set against you thing", better luck in the next life!
Such hope that lends to anyone. Take pride in your poverty and god forbid don't be a "tom" because, while you may end up outside of your impoverished hell, then you'll still be a minority but then "your own kind" will distrust you as well...
Notice how it's all bullshit excuses? Yeah, it sucks to be black, but only because that gives you a statistically higher chance to be born into a shitty situation than some white kid in the suburbs. Just like it sucks to be born white in a shitty area, like a chunk of Bosnia that hasn't been rebuilt yet or something to that effect.
Of course, going along with this equal start/middle/finish nonsense, what if someone is born with Down's Syndrome? Even in an affluent area? Should Trig Palin expect the same outcome as dohdough? I mean afterall, we're all precious snowflakes that deserve the greatest things in the world no? But only if they're not made by an evil corporation that exploits resources!
tl:dr
I guess Harrison Bergeron is a good thing?
cindersphere
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[quote name='nasum']the world according to dohdough:
Tiger Woods is a great golfer because he's white and to ensure that a non-white golfer is as good they'll have to start from the same place (the first hole?) and expect to have the same score (equal outcome) by the last hole, despite of any consideratino for natural or exceptional ability.
Let's take the silly part out of that and go this route, despite a few years in age and him living in a different state for the first couple of years, my brother and I have had ALMOST EXACT conditions since birth. I'm farther laong in life than he is, despite being the younger one, becuase I did things differently. So, am I whiter?
Any time a minority has success, it's defined as an anomaly.
Any time a white person has success it's because the system is geared in their favour.
Any time a minority fails, it's due to the systemic racism that sets up nothing but roadblocks.
Any time a white person fails, it's because that person is a failure.
So, if you're a minority, tough bunnies about that whole "world set against you thing", better luck in the next life!
Such hope that lends to anyone. Take pride in your poverty and god forbid don't be a "tom" because, while you may end up outside of your impoverished hell, then you'll still be a minority but then "your own kind" will distrust you as well...
Notice how it's all bullshit excuses? Yeah, it sucks to be black, but only because that gives you a statistically higher chance to be born into a shitty situation than some white kid in the suburbs. Just like it sucks to be born white in a shitty area, like a chunk of Bosnia that hasn't been rebuilt yet or something to that effect.
Of course, going along with this equal start/middle/finish nonsense, what if someone is born with Down's Syndrome? Even in an affluent area? Should Trig Palin expect the same outcome as dohdough? I mean afterall, we're all precious snowflakes that deserve the greatest things in the world no? But only if they're not made by an evil corporation that exploits resources!
tl:dr
I guess Harrison Bergeron is a good thing?[/QUOTE]
Sooooo, it's not racism but survival of the fittest?
Tiger Woods is a great golfer because he's white and to ensure that a non-white golfer is as good they'll have to start from the same place (the first hole?) and expect to have the same score (equal outcome) by the last hole, despite of any consideratino for natural or exceptional ability.
Let's take the silly part out of that and go this route, despite a few years in age and him living in a different state for the first couple of years, my brother and I have had ALMOST EXACT conditions since birth. I'm farther laong in life than he is, despite being the younger one, becuase I did things differently. So, am I whiter?
Any time a minority has success, it's defined as an anomaly.
Any time a white person has success it's because the system is geared in their favour.
Any time a minority fails, it's due to the systemic racism that sets up nothing but roadblocks.
Any time a white person fails, it's because that person is a failure.
So, if you're a minority, tough bunnies about that whole "world set against you thing", better luck in the next life!
Such hope that lends to anyone. Take pride in your poverty and god forbid don't be a "tom" because, while you may end up outside of your impoverished hell, then you'll still be a minority but then "your own kind" will distrust you as well...
Notice how it's all bullshit excuses? Yeah, it sucks to be black, but only because that gives you a statistically higher chance to be born into a shitty situation than some white kid in the suburbs. Just like it sucks to be born white in a shitty area, like a chunk of Bosnia that hasn't been rebuilt yet or something to that effect.
Of course, going along with this equal start/middle/finish nonsense, what if someone is born with Down's Syndrome? Even in an affluent area? Should Trig Palin expect the same outcome as dohdough? I mean afterall, we're all precious snowflakes that deserve the greatest things in the world no? But only if they're not made by an evil corporation that exploits resources!
tl:dr
I guess Harrison Bergeron is a good thing?[/QUOTE]
Sooooo, it's not racism but survival of the fittest?
[quote name='victimsofadown']I understand where you guys are coming from, but saying that equality can only come from not being colorblind is kind of a strange stance, yaknow?
Obviously I can only speak through my own paradigm, but I am not a racist, so for me it makes sense that everyone should be treated equally. I think what you are saying is that it is impossible for everyone to be treated equally (at least currently), so we have to make special accomodations to ensure that everyone is treated equally? I just don't agree with that.
But hey, as stated above, white people just don't want to understand.[/QUOTE]
Fixed it for you again. It isn't just plain ol' fixable with knowledge ignorance, it's willful ignorance. The type of ignorance that people actually wrap themselves in like an insulating blanket of stupid. You're playing stupid here, when I know you aren't really. So spare us the troll act and just get it out in the open.
Obviously I can only speak through my own paradigm, but I am not a racist, so for me it makes sense that everyone should be treated equally. I think what you are saying is that it is impossible for everyone to be treated equally (at least currently), so we have to make special accomodations to ensure that everyone is treated equally? I just don't agree with that.
But hey, as stated above, white people just don't want to understand.[/QUOTE]
Fixed it for you again. It isn't just plain ol' fixable with knowledge ignorance, it's willful ignorance. The type of ignorance that people actually wrap themselves in like an insulating blanket of stupid. You're playing stupid here, when I know you aren't really. So spare us the troll act and just get it out in the open.
[quote name='victimsofadown']I see where both of you are coming from, and you're right about not thinking about segretation as being recent (I'm 25, and obviously I haven't seen the things you describe).
But back on topic, and I'm starting to lean toward "agree to disagree" status, I don't understand how taking race into account is OK. It wasn't OK for whites to enslave blacks. More to the point: it's not OK to have a police officer stand-by and watch as crimes are committed in "modern times."
I don't think that taking race into account on applications for schools is just. Unless the reasoning is to make up for previous wrongdoings (which I also disagree with) I can't figure out why it should be allowed. Merits are merits, and while there may be other factors and other parts of society where this is not the case college applications should be considered on the grades and scores of the applicant.
I also disagree with the current system of college applications that offers preferences to those who live in a certain region, have attended a community college, etc. and I have benefitted from all of these things.
If they were RELATED events then I might agree with them, such as receiving a bonus for working in a related field, or doing research in the field, or attending a certification program. Something like that makes sense.
The fact that I am preferred over a student with identical grades because I live 40 miles away and they live down the street is asinine.[/QUOTE]
I'm not going to bother responding to all fo this, but I'll just say that schools try to create a diverse environment for their students to be exposed to, having a diverse mix of races is part of that. Whitey McWhite school doesn't benefit anyone.
But back on topic, and I'm starting to lean toward "agree to disagree" status, I don't understand how taking race into account is OK. It wasn't OK for whites to enslave blacks. More to the point: it's not OK to have a police officer stand-by and watch as crimes are committed in "modern times."
I don't think that taking race into account on applications for schools is just. Unless the reasoning is to make up for previous wrongdoings (which I also disagree with) I can't figure out why it should be allowed. Merits are merits, and while there may be other factors and other parts of society where this is not the case college applications should be considered on the grades and scores of the applicant.
I also disagree with the current system of college applications that offers preferences to those who live in a certain region, have attended a community college, etc. and I have benefitted from all of these things.
If they were RELATED events then I might agree with them, such as receiving a bonus for working in a related field, or doing research in the field, or attending a certification program. Something like that makes sense.
The fact that I am preferred over a student with identical grades because I live 40 miles away and they live down the street is asinine.[/QUOTE]
I'm not going to bother responding to all fo this, but I'll just say that schools try to create a diverse environment for their students to be exposed to, having a diverse mix of races is part of that. Whitey McWhite school doesn't benefit anyone.
Soodmeg
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[quote name='Clak']I'm not going to bother responding to all fo this, but I'll just say that schools try to create a diverse environment for their students to be exposed to, having a diverse mix of races is part of that. Whitey McWhite school doesn't benefit anyone.[/QUOTE]
Here is what I dont understand AT ALL about this whole argument.
Even with the most aggressive affirmative action in place, it still only results in being what? 94% white male instead of 99%? I just dont understand it you still have as many white people that you can shake a stick at why do people bitch so hard about the 15 minorities (and women) that show up? Again, I am in the camp of working hard is the only way to rise up...I just still dont understand why its such a big deal to some of you. You cry a river over the 6 whites that you feel got passed over while ignoring the 55k whites that got in (if we are talking about lets say school admissions)
Once again, I am in the camp that minorities have to stop letting the man oppress them by working that much harder but this is one of those situations were it feels like you have everything already and you want us to have even less than we do.
Here is what I dont understand AT ALL about this whole argument.
Even with the most aggressive affirmative action in place, it still only results in being what? 94% white male instead of 99%? I just dont understand it you still have as many white people that you can shake a stick at why do people bitch so hard about the 15 minorities (and women) that show up? Again, I am in the camp of working hard is the only way to rise up...I just still dont understand why its such a big deal to some of you. You cry a river over the 6 whites that you feel got passed over while ignoring the 55k whites that got in (if we are talking about lets say school admissions)
Once again, I am in the camp that minorities have to stop letting the man oppress them by working that much harder but this is one of those situations were it feels like you have everything already and you want us to have even less than we do.
[quote name='victimsofadown']In my opinion treating people differently, regardless of the reasoning, is what leads to continued racism. It seems like if race is always a factor (even if the intentions are good) that race will continue to be an issue in day-to-day life. Maybe it isn't realistic, but it seems to me that COMPLETELY ignoring race as a criterium for anything is the only thing that will lead to people being treated equally.[/QUOTE]
So it is just your opinion and not really based on anything up to an including the use of reason.
Gotcha.
So it is just your opinion and not really based on anything up to an including the use of reason.
Gotcha.
[quote name='victimsofadown']I see where both of you are coming from, and you're right about not thinking about segretation as being recent (I'm 25, and obviously I haven't seen the things you describe).[/quote]
Actually, you have. It's just taken a different form from when it was legally enforced. When you see neighborhoods that have a colorline(whites in part and black people in another), it didn't happen by accident. There were decades-long policies that actively denied any loans to black people. While that codified policy has changed somewhat, the new way of enforcing colorlines is by shuffling people of color into like neighborhoods and giving them higher interest loans. These are not isolated incidents and well documented cases of housing discrimination.
Just because there aren't different water fountains of varying quality anymore doesn't mean that it doesn't exist in any form anymore.
And no, I don't think you see where we're coming from because your only defense is that it doesn't feel right without really examining it.
About 15-20 years ago, colleges we're about scores, grades, and light on the extracurricular activites. As East Asians began to out-score and out-grade white students, that's when we started to see more weight on extra-curricular activities. Something similar happened in Arizona with the Latino studies class and the school board killed it. The point being that the criteria for defining meritocratic qualities is constantly shifting to help white students(and beyond) more than students of color.
Actually, you have. It's just taken a different form from when it was legally enforced. When you see neighborhoods that have a colorline(whites in part and black people in another), it didn't happen by accident. There were decades-long policies that actively denied any loans to black people. While that codified policy has changed somewhat, the new way of enforcing colorlines is by shuffling people of color into like neighborhoods and giving them higher interest loans. These are not isolated incidents and well documented cases of housing discrimination.
Just because there aren't different water fountains of varying quality anymore doesn't mean that it doesn't exist in any form anymore.
And no, I don't think you see where we're coming from because your only defense is that it doesn't feel right without really examining it.
When you talk about taking race into account, what race are you talking about? What makes you think that those that you think are getting "special consideration" are actually getting special treatment? And if they are getting special treatment, how and why is the treatment considered special?
SAT's do not determine the ability to suceed in college. Neither do IQ tests, grades, or any test score. All these metrics are well known to have deep cultural biases, so what you think would be meritocratic, really isn't in any objective way.
About 15-20 years ago, colleges we're about scores, grades, and light on the extracurricular activites. As East Asians began to out-score and out-grade white students, that's when we started to see more weight on extra-curricular activities. Something similar happened in Arizona with the Latino studies class and the school board killed it. The point being that the criteria for defining meritocratic qualities is constantly shifting to help white students(and beyond) more than students of color.
Are you saying that schools prefer kids that aren't from the local neighborhoods? It sounds like you're talking about a specialized school and not a university or liberal arts college because I'm not quite following this last part.
[quote name='nasum']the world according to dohdough:
Tiger Woods is a great golfer because he's white and to ensure that a non-white golfer is as good they'll have to start from the same place (the first hole?) and expect to have the same score (equal outcome) by the last hole, despite of any consideratino for natural or exceptional ability.[/quote]
I know you're just being an asshole, but golf is one of the few sports that offer something called a handicap. Funny how that works!
Tiger Woods is a great golfer because he's white and to ensure that a non-white golfer is as good they'll have to start from the same place (the first hole?) and expect to have the same score (equal outcome) by the last hole, despite of any consideratino for natural or exceptional ability.[/quote]
I know you're just being an asshole, but golf is one of the few sports that offer something called a handicap. Funny how that works!
Actually, those few years mean a lot in regards to how you and your brother interpreted and experienced things. And any parent that tells you that you were treated the same as your brother is bullshitting you.
Yeah...poor whitey...it's like reverse racism!
Culture doesn't develop in a vacuum and the social phenomena you describe was born out of something. Let's see you expend some effort on figuring out why instead of some poorly executed snark. I was zinged better by some nobody in the Jobs thread.
Black Americans shouldn't complain because they could've been born as a starving kid in Somalia...yup...you sure solved racism there, fella.
A white kid born with down syndrome will still have better outcomes than a black kid born with down syndrome especially if born in a more affluent area. But thanks for trolling anyways.
Feeding the Abscess
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[quote name='dohdough']I know you're just being an asshole, but golf is one of the few sports that offer something called a handicap. Funny how that works![/QUOTE]
Pros all play from the same tee length.
Pros all play from the same tee length.
Feeding the Abscess
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[quote name='dohdough']I can't tell if you're trying to be sarcastic or not, but in case you're serious, that's not how golf handicaps work...like not even close.[/QUOTE]
Not a golf fan, I just happen to know that pros don't use the handicap system. Confused tee length (women vs. men) and the handicap system (scoring scale).
tl;dr I was wrong
Not a golf fan, I just happen to know that pros don't use the handicap system. Confused tee length (women vs. men) and the handicap system (scoring scale).
tl;dr I was wrong
[quote name='Feeding the Abscess']Not a golf fan, I just happen to know that pros don't use the handicap system. Confused tee length (women vs. men) and the handicap system (scoring scale).
tl;dr I was wrong[/QUOTE]
No worries...we all get things wrong sometimes.
tl;dr I was wrong[/QUOTE]
No worries...we all get things wrong sometimes.
[quote name='Soodmeg']I want you let that sink in especially you Bob. Because one of the things that makes minorities really just want to flip on white people is the constant exaggeration of how long ago racially motivated situation were.[/QUOTE]
I'd disagree with this.
Only because you imply this **** is recent history. It's not.
Has that sunk in yet? It's not recent history.
Now that I've got dohdough in a tiffy, let me finish that thought.
It's not recent history because this kind of **** still goes on today. I've witnessed it. I've been on the other side of it (well, at least, with friends who have been on the "receiving" side of it). I came about two seconds from punching an old man in the face and getting fired over it. I'm not stupid, I don't think racism is over and I don't think a half-black man in the White House makes everything better.
However, where I differ, is that I don't think we're going to "fix" racism by "taking away" special "privileges" from one group and awarding them to another. I don't think we'll "fix" racism by taking away from Junior based on what Senior has done.
I'd disagree with this.
Only because you imply this **** is recent history. It's not.
Has that sunk in yet? It's not recent history.
Now that I've got dohdough in a tiffy, let me finish that thought.
It's not recent history because this kind of **** still goes on today. I've witnessed it. I've been on the other side of it (well, at least, with friends who have been on the "receiving" side of it). I came about two seconds from punching an old man in the face and getting fired over it. I'm not stupid, I don't think racism is over and I don't think a half-black man in the White House makes everything better.
However, where I differ, is that I don't think we're going to "fix" racism by "taking away" special "privileges" from one group and awarding them to another. I don't think we'll "fix" racism by taking away from Junior based on what Senior has done.
Trancendental
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[quote name='UncleBob']I came about two seconds from punching an old man in the face[/QUOTE]
Doesn't surprise me.
Doesn't surprise me.
[quote name='camoor']Doesn't surprise me.[/QUOTE]
Man said **** about a good friend of mine (and his kind in general). I'd expect most reasonable people to have a negative reaction towards what he said. Not saying anyone /should/ have punched him... but he deserved it.
Man said **** about a good friend of mine (and his kind in general). I'd expect most reasonable people to have a negative reaction towards what he said. Not saying anyone /should/ have punched him... but he deserved it.
bread's done