"Slut" Marches

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http://boston.cbslocal.com/2011/05/07/thousands-attend-bostons-slutwalk-march/

In January, a Toronto police officer told a group of university students that women should avoid dressing like “sluts” to avoid being raped. He later apologized. The officer who made the comments, Constable Michael Sanguinetti, was disciplined but remained on duty, said Toronto police spokesman Mark Pugash.
However, advocates in Toronto held a “SlutWalk” to protest the officer’s remarks and to highlight what they saw as problems in blaming sexual assault victims. Since then, SlutWalks, organized mainly through social media, have been held in Dallas, Asheville, N.C., and Ottawa, Ontario. Organizers say the events also were held to bring attention to “slut-shaming,” or shaming women for being sexual, and the treatment of sexual assault victims...
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I'm disappointed I didn't hear about this sooner or I would have marched. I hope we can all agree that rape victims are not at fault?
 
I think everyone agrees there is no excuse for rape and that these women are not "asking for it". However I think many of us would disagree with many of these marchers about "sluts". I read about a few of these that have been organized and commonly you are not just hearing comments like "a women should be able to dress how she wants without fear of being raped" which is true but also comments like "a women should be able to dress however she wants without being perceived as a slut".

I am sorry, but far too many girls want to put on a pair of jeans with juicy scribbled across their ass and their thong and ass crack hanging out then get annoyed when people stare or perceive them as sluts. I also do agree with the thought that while these women in no way deserve or are asking to be raped that they certainly do not help their cause by sexualizing themselves in the way they do. We as a society like to put women on a pedestal where they are treated as these sexual objects but then we get surprised when men react like they are objects. That does not simply mean rape either, maybe men in the work place would take women a little more seriously if more women dressed and acted seriously. Yes many/most of the women in the work place environment by no means dress or act like sluts, but when society through movies, Televisions and the actions of the younger generation constantly shows women in that light then I imagine many men just permanently see women that way.
 
People are largely free to do whatever they want, say whatever they want and act however they want.
But they are not free to control all the consequences of those actions, nor are they devoid from any responsibilities that result from their actions.
No one should be raped, ever, under any circumstances. And the attacker needs to be punished to the full extent of the law. But the person being raped needs to understand that he/she can do things to lessen or increase the risk of attack. And the rational, the intelligent action, is to know those risks, be aware of those risks, and make the best possible decisions to not be in harm's way. Should they have to? No, but common sense says our world isn't safe enough.
If a person gets blackout drunk, they should never be raped. But they also have put themselves in an incredibly stupid and dangerous situation. Or if they post an ad on craigslist to meet up with a complete stranger, or go walking alone to a dangerous and unknown part of town in the middle of the night. Again, no one deserves to be raped, or robbed or beaten or otherwise harmed. But come on, a person's choices and decisions can directly put them in danger. And if people are ignorant that how they talk or dress or act can influence their risk, that needs to be addressed.

I also find the article's cavalier dismissal at the end of a pimpwalk to be in poor taste. People should be more worried about the very real and large continued existence of slavery that is a direct result of pimps preying on women than they should be about who owns the definition of slut.
 
Of course it's not the victims fault, and some of the people in the comments of that article are taking this shit waaay too seriously.
 
[quote name='Javery']I love sluts.[/QUOTE]

*prefers sluts in the waiting* Just as much hotness and sex without all the STDs!
 
But the person being raped needs to understand that he/she can do things to lessen or increase the risk of attack. And the rational, the intelligent action, is to know those risks, be aware of those risks, and make the best possible decisions to not be in harm's way.
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I dig it but this is about an officer in Toronto basically saying that some scantily clad girl asked for it.
 
Yeah that's pretty out of line for the cop to say.

Rape is a broad subject and occurs for many different reasons. Narrowing it down to clothing is ridiculous.
 
It was absolutely a very inappropriate comment.

Cops should be helping educate the public about ways to reduce their chances of victimization, but not in ways that blame the victims and/or insult people who dress a certain way etc.
 
This is an honest question:
How is suggesting that someone be aware of risk and possibly prepare for it tantamount to blaming the victim?
Of course there's the logical extreme of "she was asking for it" which we all pretty much agree is BS. But there's "hey man, be careful, maybe cool it on the booze a bit if you're out in the club, ALWAYS WATCH YOUR DRINK, maybe make sure that your outfit covers your aeriolas and your vagina", nowhere in that is "dress Amish or accept the consequences" which is what the slut marchers seem to imply.

When we say "don't drive your car at 100mph and wear a seatbelt" we aren't saying "only drive a tank as it guarantees safety against a crash with a Smart Car".
 
The way the cop phrased it felt like he was pointing fingers, which is wrong. Although I agree people are oversensitive and get offended when taking good advice, in this particular case it did sound like blaming the victim.

If you drive through a green light and get broadsided, barely come out alive and the paramedics are telling you "you didn't look both ways, you were asking for it" -- that's just wrong. But people should be able to say, "drive carefully, there's crazy people out there."

The way it's phrased conveys very different meanings.
 
Yeah, its the way he phrased it that was the biggest problem.

And also attacking dress style isn't really appropriate in the first place. Advice on not getting plastered in public or in mixed company when you don't have friends to watch out for you etc. is fine, as is advice to keep an eye on your drinks at all times etc.

But dress style isn't something that should ever be considered to increase victimization risk IMO, and not something police should be giving advice on. That should be limited to things with that directly increase risk like how to avoid roofies being placed in your drink etc. Things related to behavior, not dress style.

Or more succinctly, such advice should be limited to things that limit the opportunity for becoming a victim--like not getting shitfaced, keeping an eye on your drinks at all time to not get roofied etc. Not superficial like dress style that doesn't affect the opportunity but may cause someone to target them. A girl can be dressed super provocatively and be very unlikely to become a victim if they don't get shitfaced, keep an eye on their drinks, don't walk around at night alone etc., so why bother focusing on dress style when it has so little do do directly with the the odds of victimization?
 
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[quote name='vherub']No one should be raped, ever, under any circumstances. And the attacker needs to be punished to the full extent of the law. But the person being raped needs to understand that he/she can do things to lessen or increase the risk of attack.[/QUOTE]

Why couldn't you just end it there, why'd you have to include the but?
 
The but isn't the problem so much as it is the "person being raped" as that gets into blaming the victim territory rather than just educating people on public safety.

What should be said is that everyone should be aware of things they can do to lessen their chances of being a victim of crime.

Educating on things like the dangers of getting intoxicated to the point of passing out, not watching your drinks carefully in efforts to reduce date rape etc. is just as important as educating people not to leave valuables (or signs of valuables like a GPS suction cup mount) visible in a car to reduce car break ins etc.

You NEVER blame the victim after the fact, but law enforcement should work to teach people about how to keep themselves as safe as possible.
 
I liked the article I read a while back where some English constable warned women that if they got drunk out of their minds they'd be easier targets for rape and theft. Naturally he was chided for stating the obvious; it's sad that we live in such a politically correct time that the concept of personal responsibly no longer exists...perhaps women should do everything possible to make themselves the most lucrative rape targets and then blame the police for not protecting them. That's where we're getting as a society, not the prevention of victimization but the glamorization of the victim mentality. Tell me I'm wrong about this. Like it's okay for women to dress with their ass hanging out and have multiple sex partners and there's never ever supposed to be any consequences, they're supposed to be blessed in the eyes of society--well at least until some criminal type comes along.

Yeah, and I accept that some women get raped; and hey, there was nothing they could do and it's not their fault. However, there's also women you'll talk to as adults and they'll say, "Yeah, I got raped on five different occasions" and eventually, guess what, eventually you cross from the realm of "not my fault" to "I'm actively persuing this as a lifestyle and making some seriously bad decisions in regards to who I hang out with." And that's the sort of shit I have zero sympathy for. That's no longer a rape victim but a rape ACCOMPLICE, meaning someone who has helped the crime to be committed. And don't we blame people who act as accomplices to crimes in other areas such as murder and robbing banks? But suddenly we can't in this instance because there's all kinds of GENDER POLITICS and SEXUAL TABOOs at work.
 
[quote name='Indigo_Streetlight']That's no longer a rape victim but a rape ACCOMPLICE, meaning someone who has helped the crime to be committed. And don't we blame people who act as accomplices to crimes in other areas such as murder and robbing banks? But suddenly we can't in this instance because there's all kinds of GENDER POLITICS and SEXUAL TABOOs at work.[/QUOTE]

What the fuck kind of analogy is that. An accomplice to murder or robbery is someone who actively participated in the crime, but didn't actually commit the offense (weren't the one who actually, physically killed the person, or they were the getaway driver rather than the person who went in and robbed the bank etc.).

A victim cannot be an accomplice.

The closet analogy you could make is that someone walking alone at night that gets robbed and murdered is somehow blameworthy for the crime, or the bank that doesn't have top notch security is blameworthy etc.

And even that is stupid. Yes, some people make poor decisions and live lifestyles that increase their exposure to criminal victimization. That doesn't ever make them an "accomplice" to the crime, or even worthy of blaming for the crime.

Yeah, it's stupid to take unnecessary risks--especially to keep doing so after being victimized once. But that never justifies the crimes, makes them an accomplice, nor lessens the fact that they were victimized.

You can feel less sorry for such victims if you so choose, but legally they deserve to be treated exactly the same as any other victim.
 
[quote name='vherub']People are largely free to do whatever they want, say whatever they want and act however they want.
But they are not free to control all the consequences of those actions, nor are they devoid from any responsibilities that result from their actions.
No one should be raped, ever, under any circumstances. And the attacker needs to be punished to the full extent of the law. But the person being raped needs to understand that he/she can do things to lessen or increase the risk of attack. And the rational, the intelligent action, is to know those risks, be aware of those risks, and make the best possible decisions to not be in harm's way. Should they have to? No, but common sense says our world isn't safe enough.
If a person gets blackout drunk, they should never be raped. But they also have put themselves in an incredibly stupid and dangerous situation. Or if they post an ad on craigslist to meet up with a complete stranger, or go walking alone to a dangerous and unknown part of town in the middle of the night. Again, no one deserves to be raped, or robbed or beaten or otherwise harmed. But come on, a person's choices and decisions can directly put them in danger. And if people are ignorant that how they talk or dress or act can influence their risk, that needs to be addressed.

I also find the article's cavalier dismissal at the end of a pimpwalk to be in poor taste. People should be more worried about the very real and large continued existence of slavery that is a direct result of pimps preying on women than they should be about who owns the definition of slut.[/QUOTE]

To play the Devil's Advocate here, what if the victim belligerently shouts "Rape Me!" while deriding the would be attacker's penis-size, and hence effectiveness? For you to say that it is never deserved is to suggest that there isn't one ounce of the perverse in human nature, and that there is never a case--no matter how rare--of someone "egging on" the other party. I'm not saying it's the norm but there are people out there who like getting suplexed--so imagine picking a fight with someone bigger than you; and who's going to say it's your fault when you're the innocent defenseless creature who is pure of heart (despite your slutting and what we might call "amoral activities" in less enlightened times than this!)
 
There's no utility in throwing out hyperbole in the form of farfetched, extreme examples.

We're talking about women's dress style here. Not crazy cases where someone deliberately edges on an offender and presses charges later.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']What the fuck kind of analogy is that. An accomplice to murder or robbery is someone who actively participated in the crime, but didn't actually commit the offense (weren't the one who actually, physically killed the person, or they were the getaway driver rather than the person who went in and robbed the bank etc.).

A victim cannot be an accomplice.

The closet analogy you could make is that someone walking alone at night that gets robbed and murdered is somehow blameworthy for the crime, or the bank that doesn't have top notch security is blameworthy etc.

And even that is stupid. Yes, some people make poor decisions and live lifestyles that increase their exposure to criminal victimization. That doesn't ever make them an "accomplice" to the crime, or even worthy of blaming for the crime.

Yeah, it's stupid to take unnecessary risks--especially to keep doing so after being victimized once. But that never justifies the crimes, makes them an accomplice, nor lessens the fact that they were victimized.

You can feel less sorry for such victims if you so choose, but legally they deserve to be treated exactly the same as any other victim.[/QUOTE]

I have a feeling we aren't going to see eye to eye on this issue--for I have the rather unique perspective of having been in a relationship with a rape victim (Surprise!). Unless you have been there you can't know the deepest, darkest core of wishy-washy bullshit and the undeserved self-loathing ;) However, I will say that I don't think it was a random accident for her to build love-squares with four guys at one time; nor was it an accident in her attempts to recreate rape scenarios, both mentally and in her selection of chaps with those kind of destructive tendencies. I know it is more than possible to be victimized by a "victim," but there is no justice for me because I am male, and a male's feelings are not recognized in the eyes of the law.

P.S. I'm liking that you're not liking my viewpoint. If it makes you happy my farfetched and extreme only has to exist in my delusions that I call reality and not in your reality which I'm guessing is completely balanced and fair. GODDAMN, I'M NOT RELEVANT AGAIN, TIME TO STOP EXISTING.
 
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I'm not saying that kind of stuff doesn't happen.

I'm saying it is the rare exception to the rule, and has nothing to do with simple dress style which is the focus of the slut marches and this thread.

This is all about a cop saying that rape victims that dressed like "sluts" were asking for it. The fact that there are some nut jobs out there who do ask for it is off topic. False accusations of rape etc. are an important issue, just not related to the current discussion.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']I'm not saying that kind of stuff doesn't happen.

I'm saying it is the rare exception to the rule, and has nothing to do with simple dress style which is the focus of the slut marches and this thread.

This is all about a cop saying that rape victims that dressed like "sluts" were asking for it. The fact that there are some nut jobs out there who do ask for it is off topic. False accusations of rape etc. are an important issue, just not related to the current discussion.[/QUOTE]

And I'm just saying the "form of dress asking for it" is very similar to the "boozed out of my mind asking for it"; in that it boils down to women doing whatever while still wanting to be placed on a pedestal. You can't go through your life as an infant wanting all-encompassing police protection and then scream that your civil liberties are being taken away. As I keep saying there's a cost to living in a loose society but Peter Pan and Tinkerbell don't want to see a downside.
 
Yeah, we'll just have to agree to disagree as I think that statement is absurd.

People can dress however they want, as long as it fits with in laws against indecent exposure anyway. The cops have no place telling people how to dress.

And people have a right to get shitfaced, and being shitfaced doesn't make them any less of a victim if something happens in my eyes. But that's still an area where cops and others can educate people on the need to be careful as being inebriated lowers ones guard and increases victimization risk directly as a result. Same with watching out for roofies etc. Dress style isn't something cops or others should be giving advice on, especially not in the tone that was done in this case.

But overall, the fact that people may not do things to reduce victimization risk and/or do things that place them at higher risk doesn't lessen the fact that they're a victim and deserve to be treated as such if they are victimized.

It's a very slippery slope to try to argue otherwise and try to blame victims. For instance, being out and about at night increases your risk of robbery. So should anyone who gets robbed walking home from the bar or a friends house or a late movie etc. not be considered a victim because they were out late and thus "asking to be robbed"?

I find it unlikely you agree with that statement unless you're batshit crazy, but yet you apply that sentiment to rape. Which leads me to conclude that you're pretty much just a woman hater based on your negative experience with your ex and/or other factors.
 
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[quote name='dmaul1114']Yeah, we'll just have to agree to disagree as I think that statement is absurd.

People can dress however they want, as long as it fits with in laws against indecent exposure anyway. The cops have no place telling people how to dress.

And people have a right to get shitfaced, and being shitfaced doesn't make them any less of a victim if something happens in my eyes. But that's still an area where cops and others can educate people on the need to be careful as being inebriated lowers ones guard and increases victimization risk directly as a result. Same with watching out for roofies etc. Dress style isn't something cops or others should be giving advice on, especially not in the tone that was done in this case.

But overall, the fact that people may not do things to reduce victimization risk and/or do things that place them at higher risk doesn't lessen the fact that they're a victim and deserve to be treated as such if they are victimized.

It's a very slippery slope to try to argue otherwise and try to blame victims. For instance, being out and about at night increases your risk of robbery. So should anyone who gets robbed walking home from the bar or a friends house or a late movie etc. not be considered a victim because they were out late and thus "asking to be robbed"?

I find it unlikely you agree with that statement unless you're batshit crazy, but yet you apply that sentiment to rape. Which leads me to conclude that you're pretty much just a woman hater based on your negative experience with your ex and/or other factors.[/QUOTE]
You forgot to mention that "recreating" the initial trauma could be a serious sign of ptsd. That guy is one serious asshole with a strong streak of misogyny.
 
[quote name='Indigo_Streetlight']And I'm just saying the "form of dress asking for it" is very similar to the "boozed out of my mind asking for it"; in that it boils down to women doing whatever while still wanting to be placed on a pedestal. You can't go through your life as an infant wanting all-encompassing police protection and then scream that your civil liberties are being taken away. As I keep saying there's a cost to living in a loose society but Peter Pan and Tinkerbell don't want to see a downside.[/QUOTE]
As a guy, I've been blasted out of my mind many times and I can't think of an occasion in which I was asking to be sodomized and beaten by a girl I was with. I guess I couldn't complain if I was cause I was "asking for it.":roll:

Hell, I guess all those victims of rape in prison deserved it too!

Just because you went out with a girl that was a victim of rape doesn't give you any moral authority on whether raped victims "deserved" it or not.
 
[quote name='SpazX']ITT:

not being raped = being placed on a pedestal[/QUOTE]
Also ITT:
being raped = being a whore that deserved it
 
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